The sustainability of it is absolutely irrelevant to someone who just found out their financial future is ruined and is now trying to figure out what to do. You're also assuming they had the education to understand how unsustainable it was. Do you think all of the millions of Americans who got into stupid mortgages knew what was coming?
It's not that I have no sympathy, of course it's bullshit. Most of the blame (on Greece and in the US) rests with the leadership. But at the same time when you spend 500,000 dollars on a home, you better understand that maybe it isn't actually worth that much. You might be in the middle of a mania.
Imagine a village of people 4,000 years ago farming the same land. Then the weather patterns change and they can't grow any crops anymore. They can't get bailed out, they have to change their lifestyle (starve or move to new land). We aren't fundamentally apart from things like that happening today.
We can just forecast weather changes, and put off disasters. But if we don't plan effectively, we'll find ourselves on a plot of land with little to eat.
Comparing this with an act of nature really takes the element of human responsibility out of it though.
Its more like serfs being worked to death on the same plot of land for a decade by a feudal lord when people didn't know how to rotate crops. The serfs are glad to be able to eat, but when the land stops being arable and the feudal lord says "tough luck," you have a rebellion on your hands.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Comparing this with an act of nature really takes the element of human responsibility out of it though.
Its more like serfs being worked to death on the same plot of land for a decade by a feudal lord when people didn't know how to rotate crops. The serfs are glad to be able to eat, but when the land stops being arable and the feudal lord says "tough luck," you have a rebellion on your hands.
Replace "worked to death" with "pushing papers and retiring early" and "able to eat" with "live cushy lives paid for completely by the state at unsustainable levels" and then you might have something.
Comparing this with an act of nature really takes the element of human responsibility out of it though.
Its more like serfs being worked to death on the same plot of land for a decade by a feudal lord when people didn't know how to rotate crops. The serfs are glad to be able to eat, but when the land stops being arable and the feudal lord says "tough luck," you have a rebellion on your hands.
But the serfs elected that feudal lord. And were more than happy to get food from the neighboring villages to support their posh lifestyle during the good times (ie credit).
How about we just agree to not use analogies? They never capture the real picture anyways. Like those silly Star Trek technobabble hand waves.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I wonder if there's any way to get rid of the endemic habit of tax evasion in Greece. It's tempting to suggest sending in a whole lot of forensic accountants and tax collectors (hmmm, para-drops of IRS people?) but I don't know if that would work. Or maybe it would? Perhaps they could have to rewrite their tax code to make it easier to collect, somehow?
Corlis on
But I don't mind, as long as there's a bed beneath the stars that shine,
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
I wonder if there's any way to get rid of the endemic habit of tax evasion in Greece. It's tempting to suggest sending in a whole lot of forensic accountants and tax collectors (hmmm, para-drops of IRS people?) but I don't know if that would work. Or maybe it would? Perhaps they could have to rewrite their tax code to make it easier to collect, somehow?
Step 1: Require business to use cash registers and give/keep receipts. (How's that not the case yet!?)
Step 2: Lots of sting operations to catch "under the table" payments.
I wonder if there's any way to get rid of the endemic habit of tax evasion in Greece. It's tempting to suggest sending in a whole lot of forensic accountants and tax collectors (hmmm, para-drops of IRS people?) but I don't know if that would work. Or maybe it would? Perhaps they could have to rewrite their tax code to make it easier to collect, somehow?
Step 1: Require business to use cash registers and give/keep receipts. (How's that not the case yet!?)
Step 2: Lots of sting operations to catch "under the table" payments.
The problem is the economy is already balanced around no-tax. So enforcing the taxes will cause business to shrink, lay off workers, and fail.
And who knows, maybe all the bribes were effectively the tax. How do you squash the bribery and divert that money into government coffers?
I'm sure I must be missing something(like details on the previous austerity measures), but I honestly don't see how the current proposal leads to throwing petrol bombs. Were I to have only heard about the public anger and violence, I'd have guessed public employees were receiving a 20% pay cut.
Was the economic situation last fall so bad(relative to other countries suffering) that the current austerity measures pose an unbearable burden? Forget Europe's well-being, I don't see how Greece itself, and all these public employees, wouldn't be significantly worse off if they said "fuck it" to the austerity measures and had to default.
I'm not getting the impression that these cuts are significantly out of the range that California had to institute.
The rioting is being led by the Communist Party who see this as a great chance to kick capitalism when it's down. The images coming from Athens are...disturbing.
Today the Commission released it's economic forecasts, it's all here.
Ireland's economy is predicted to grow 3% next year, Spain 0.8%, Portugal 0.5% this year and then 0.7% next year.
Greece's economy will shrink 3% this year and 0.5% next year.
Mikis Theodorakis, Greece’s most famous composer, expressed the visceral reaction of many when he said the crisis was probably a plot by dark forces in the United States and other capitalist centres to subdue proud, independent nations.
Glad to know other countries have people as crazy as our own crazies.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Mikis Theodorakis, Greece’s most famous composer, expressed the visceral reaction of many when he said the crisis was probably a plot by dark forces in the United States and other capitalist centres to subdue proud, independent nations.
Glad to know other countries have people as crazy as our own crazies.
Does he realize they are hat in hand asking these "capitalist centres" for a bailout.
The rioting is being led by the Communist Party who see this as a great chance to kick capitalism when it's down. The images coming from Athens are...disturbing.
Today the Commission released it's economic forecasts, it's all here.
Ireland's economy is predicted to grow 3% next year, Spain 0.8%, Portugal 0.5% this year and then 0.7% next year.
Greece's economy will shrink 3% this year and 0.5% next year.
Blaming capitalism for the collapse of a country where 2 in 5 people is employed by the state...rich.
And blaming the ratings agencies is such garbage, especially after 2 years ago where everyone bitched about their rating being too favorable. Greece has massive debt, an ever growing projected-deficit for this year, continued projected economic retraction, a structurally unsound economy, and massive public resistance to fixing the economy. Sounds like a junk bound to me.
The rioting is being led by the Communist Party who see this as a great chance to kick capitalism when it's down. The images coming from Athens are...disturbing.
Today the Commission released it's economic forecasts, it's all here.
Ireland's economy is predicted to grow 3% next year, Spain 0.8%, Portugal 0.5% this year and then 0.7% next year.
Greece's economy will shrink 3% this year and 0.5% next year.
Blaming capitalism for the collapse of a country where 2 in 5 people is employed by the state...rich.
And blaming the ratings agencies is such garbage, especially after 2 years ago where everyone bitched about their rating being too favorable. Greece has massive debt, an ever growing projected-deficit for this year, continued projected economic retraction, a structurally unsound economy, and massive public resistance to fixing the economy. Sounds like a junk bound to me.
The Greeks aren't the ones pissed at the ratings agencies, it's Merkel and Sarkozy.
They wrote a letter to Van Romput today saying
"The decision by a ratings agency to downgrade the rating of Greece even before the programme of the authorities and the amount of the support plan were known prompts us to consider the role of the ratings agencies in the spreading of crises," the leaders wrote in a joint letter to European Council president Herman Van Rompuy.
Mikis Theodorakis, Greece’s most famous composer, expressed the visceral reaction of many when he said the crisis was probably a plot by dark forces in the United States and other capitalist centres to subdue proud, independent nations.
Glad to know other countries have people as crazy as our own crazies.
Nationalistic anti-capitalist propaganda is nothing new.
Mikis Theodorakis, Greece’s most famous composer, expressed the visceral reaction of many when he said the crisis was probably a plot by dark forces in the United States and other capitalist centres to subdue proud, independent nations.
Glad to know other countries have people as crazy as our own crazies.
Well with the role Goldman Sachs has played in all this, I can see where he's coming from. Corporate imperialism has kind of been our M.O. for decades now.
There are fears that banks which are still recovering from the 2008 global banking crisis are exposed to Greek debt.
Okay, I've got 5,000 Canadian dollars. It's my entire savings. Wat do?
Invest in Greece!
In a way, you could.. I mean, for the next few years you're going to get stupidly good exchange rates going on. If you're a foreigner now would be a good time to buy up land/property cheap and sell it in 10 years or so when the Greek market recovers.
GrimReaper on
PSN | Steam
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
CNN saying that 10-15 minute 600 points drop from -390 to -1000 was a computer glitch or somebody pushed the wrong button as it was too fast for individual investors to react.
Computer glitch my ass.
CNN saying that 10-15 minute 600 points drop from -390 to -1000 was a computer glitch or somebody pushed the wrong button as it was too fast for individual investors to react.
Computer glitch my ass.
They mean automated trading. It probably hit the default sell point for some big firm's software.
Why is it that everytime decisive action is taken by either the EU or Athens the markets shit themselves?
The Greek Parliament passed it's austerity measures this morning, Papandreou even booted out a few MPs who dissented.
Because it's the Greek people who have to make money/pay taxes/take cuts. And if they keep rioting and not growing olives (or w/e the Greek economy makes) then they'll never pay the loans and everyone is fucked.
And if they don't pay their loans then everyone who owns Greek bonds (Spain, Portugal, US Banks) then they fall off a cliff because their wealth goes up in smoke.
And when the banks wealth takes a hit, they stop lending money at low rates. So rates go up. And mortgages get more expensive, which forces some people to sell.
Why is it that everytime decisive action is taken by either the EU or Athens the markets shit themselves?
The Greek Parliament passed it's austerity measures this morning, Papandreou even booted out a few MPs who dissented.
Because it's the Greek people who have to make money/pay taxes/take cuts. And if they keep rioting and not growing olives (or w/e the Greek economy makes) then they'll never pay the loans and everyone is fucked.
And if they don't pay their loans then everyone who owns Greek bonds (Spain, Portugal, US Banks) then they fall off a cliff because their wealth goes up in smoke.
And when the banks wealth takes a hit, they stop lending money at low rates. So rates go up. And mortgages get more expensive, which forces some people to sell.
And.. and... and...
So yea. We're heading into a panic.
They do shipping and tourism, which both take a big hit in recessions.
Mikis Theodorakis, Greece’s most famous composer, expressed the visceral reaction of many when he said the crisis was probably a plot by dark forces in the United States and other capitalist centres to subdue proud, independent nations.
Glad to know other countries have people as crazy as our own crazies.
Well with the role Goldman Sachs has played in all this, I can see where he's coming from. Corporate imperialism has kind of been our M.O. for decades now.
Basically. If communism could have lived for just a little longer it would have had some serious ammo to use against Western ideologies.
Posts
It's not that I have no sympathy, of course it's bullshit. Most of the blame (on Greece and in the US) rests with the leadership. But at the same time when you spend 500,000 dollars on a home, you better understand that maybe it isn't actually worth that much. You might be in the middle of a mania.
Imagine a village of people 4,000 years ago farming the same land. Then the weather patterns change and they can't grow any crops anymore. They can't get bailed out, they have to change their lifestyle (starve or move to new land). We aren't fundamentally apart from things like that happening today.
We can just forecast weather changes, and put off disasters. But if we don't plan effectively, we'll find ourselves on a plot of land with little to eat.
Its more like serfs being worked to death on the same plot of land for a decade by a feudal lord when people didn't know how to rotate crops. The serfs are glad to be able to eat, but when the land stops being arable and the feudal lord says "tough luck," you have a rebellion on your hands.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Replace "worked to death" with "pushing papers and retiring early" and "able to eat" with "live cushy lives paid for completely by the state at unsustainable levels" and then you might have something.
But the serfs elected that feudal lord. And were more than happy to get food from the neighboring villages to support their posh lifestyle during the good times (ie credit).
Edit: adytum beat me to it.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
Step 1: Require business to use cash registers and give/keep receipts. (How's that not the case yet!?)
Step 2: Lots of sting operations to catch "under the table" payments.
The problem is the economy is already balanced around no-tax. So enforcing the taxes will cause business to shrink, lay off workers, and fail.
And who knows, maybe all the bribes were effectively the tax. How do you squash the bribery and divert that money into government coffers?
Was the economic situation last fall so bad(relative to other countries suffering) that the current austerity measures pose an unbearable burden? Forget Europe's well-being, I don't see how Greece itself, and all these public employees, wouldn't be significantly worse off if they said "fuck it" to the austerity measures and had to default.
I'm not getting the impression that these cuts are significantly out of the range that California had to institute.
Today the Commission released it's economic forecasts, it's all here.
Ireland's economy is predicted to grow 3% next year, Spain 0.8%, Portugal 0.5% this year and then 0.7% next year.
Greece's economy will shrink 3% this year and 0.5% next year.
Another thing is that the EU is talking about trying to rein in ratings agencies.
Glad to know other countries have people as crazy as our own crazies.
Yes we're delightfully mad here on the other side of the Atlantic.
Does he realize they are hat in hand asking these "capitalist centres" for a bailout.
Blaming capitalism for the collapse of a country where 2 in 5 people is employed by the state...rich.
And blaming the ratings agencies is such garbage, especially after 2 years ago where everyone bitched about their rating being too favorable. Greece has massive debt, an ever growing projected-deficit for this year, continued projected economic retraction, a structurally unsound economy, and massive public resistance to fixing the economy. Sounds like a junk bound to me.
The Greeks aren't the ones pissed at the ratings agencies, it's Merkel and Sarkozy.
They wrote a letter to Van Romput today saying
Full article here.
Edit: Some sanity coming into the market now. About time.
Nationalistic anti-capitalist propaganda is nothing new.
Glad my chronic procrastination kept me from opening an investment account in the last week.
This could be a great opportunity for you! Usually in sell-offs, the healthy companies take hits with the bad.
I'd stay out of US stocks though.
Edit: This isn't going to stop anytime soon. IMO, this is going to get worse.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Okay, I've got 5,000 Canadian dollars. It's my entire savings. Wat do?
Well with the role Goldman Sachs has played in all this, I can see where he's coming from. Corporate imperialism has kind of been our M.O. for decades now.
Invest in Greece!
In a way, you could.. I mean, for the next few years you're going to get stupidly good exchange rates going on. If you're a foreigner now would be a good time to buy up land/property cheap and sell it in 10 years or so when the Greek market recovers.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Buy a shitload of tinned food and flee into the woods.
Computer glitch my ass.
They mean automated trading. It probably hit the default sell point for some big firm's software.
The Greek Parliament passed it's austerity measures this morning, Papandreou even booted out a few MPs who dissented.
The world's markets are woven together pretty tightly. Tug one one strand and the whole thing moves.
Because it's the Greek people who have to make money/pay taxes/take cuts. And if they keep rioting and not growing olives (or w/e the Greek economy makes) then they'll never pay the loans and everyone is fucked.
And if they don't pay their loans then everyone who owns Greek bonds (Spain, Portugal, US Banks) then they fall off a cliff because their wealth goes up in smoke.
And when the banks wealth takes a hit, they stop lending money at low rates. So rates go up. And mortgages get more expensive, which forces some people to sell.
And.. and... and...
So yea. We're heading into a panic.
They do shipping and tourism, which both take a big hit in recessions.
Because when money markets are shakey, people panic, and that makes them do things they shouldn't do which make the money markets shakier
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Basically. If communism could have lived for just a little longer it would have had some serious ammo to use against Western ideologies.
If Ford stocks are down, invest in Ford
Seriously, people who bought Ford stocks when they were at the lowest of the low last year are now sitting on a comfortable ~400% ROI
People were saying the same things after the Savings and Loans scandal