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The Tragic Death of the Western [Anime Industry]

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Posts

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    2) Bad fansubs. Fansub groups don't give a shit about professionalism and being correct, they just want to be the first kids on the block with a sub, even if it's absolutely terrible. If someone's trying to get into anime by way of fansubs they'll be scared away by the terrible grammar, tons of untranslated Japanese words, and honorifics all in confetti-colored subtitles covering half the screen.

    People who are not already anime fans are probably not even aware of the existence of fansubs.

    I don't think it always works that way.

    Hypothetical here:

    Someone tells you "Anime X is awesome, you should totally watch it!".
    You go "Ok, sure".
    It's not on TV. Damn, can't watch it there.
    The DVDs are horribly expensive. "Fuck, I'm not paying that much for a show I don't even know if I like."
    So you hit the torrents. Download the first episode.
    BAM, fansub. "WTF is this? This is crap. I thought this was a translation, what's with all the fucking Japanese etc etc etc".


    I don't know, maybe I'm full of shit, but I can see this kind of thing being not uncommon. The non-availability of Anime through normal channels could push people towards getting exposed to fansubs whether they even know what fansubs are or not.

    I really don't see that happening. More likely, you would get something from the person recommending it to you. Who probably knew enough to get one of the decent fansubs.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The anime industry needs new blood to survive and here's what I think is the things currently blocking them from coming:
    1) No television presence. Adult Swim's not enough and kids' cartoon blocks usually star butchered anime that no one with half a brain wants to watch. People want to watch something first before buying it on DVD and if they can't get it legally then they'll turn to getting it illegally. Hopefully the increased amount of legal online anime streaming will help with this.
    2) Bad fansubs. Fansub groups don't give a shit about professionalism and being correct, they just want to be the first kids on the block with a sub, even if it's absolutely terrible. If someone's trying to get into anime by way of fansubs they'll be scared away by the terrible grammar, tons of untranslated Japanese words, and honorifics all in confetti-colored subtitles covering half the screen.
    3) Moe. The current (thankfully dying) trend in anime scares away people just by looking like what you'd expect a pedophile to get off on.
    4) Anime conventions. Filled with people who have seemingly learned how to interact with others from the anime they watch, these put up a stereotype that people desperately want to avoid becoming, so they never even attempt to watch anime.
    5) The word "anime". Anime has a ton of negative connotations attached to it (mainly from the 90s goldrush) that aren't as prevalent today, namely bad dubbing, animating at 10 frames per second, and $30 for 2 episode DVDs. I think a rebranding of some sort is needed to entice new people but I honestly don't know how it would be done.
    I'd like to see their studios working together with western IPs. How often do we see something like The Boondocks? I don't think anybody calls that an anime. Same art, no stigmas. Probably because it's written by someone who can...write.

    Anime is just how the japanese say animation... Frankly guys a lot of these stigma are just your own prejudices. I've gotten more flak for liking Science Fiction and Fantasy than I have anime, and woe unto me when the two overlap.

    For a long time our society thought of animation as something for children or humor because of the success of Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse and their vaudeville roots (well, and all the Disney family movies that the Mouse's success enabled). Honestly the biggest force working to change that isn't Japan but Pixar, yea they keep making "family" movies but every smart film (i.e. The Incredibles) they produce just lends the medium more credibility.

    The only prejudice society at large has against anime is the exact same one they have against western animation, that they think it's meant for children. If we're talking about TV shows we liked and someone is raving about Grey's Anatomy, Law & order, or whatever-the-fuck I can't bring up Batman: The Animated Series any more than I can bring up Baccano.

    Things like loli, moe? Most people don't have any fucking idea what those even are. That's all your own, personal prejudices and grudges against the genre. The societal problem of anime acceptance is purely because they think anything animated is for children, not because they think cosplaying at a convention is weird or something. They probably don't even know there are conventions. Let alone what the word cosplay means.

    Lanlaorn on
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    Pi-r8 on
  • BiopticBioptic Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    It's not a rice-ball, it's an eclair!

    Bioptic on
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bioptic wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    It's not a rice-ball, it's an eclair!

    Would you like some of this rice-ball covered in fish sauce?
    No thanks, I'm too full of japanese pizza and teriyaki-fried noodles

    Pi-r8 on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Excuse my ignorance, but what are teriyaki friend noodles?

    Apothe0sis on
    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
    Es-annon NEVA 4GET
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    actually i made that one up lol. I couldn't think of another example of weird food translations.
    oh wait i got it now- "here, have a rice ball covered with a slice of raw fish"

    Pi-r8 on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Well, I hate you now. That sounds delicious.

    What's ramen taste like?

    Apothe0sis on
    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
    Es-annon NEVA 4GET
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    What's ramen taste like

    Generic ramen is pretty much chicken with noodles in chicken soup. It's really savoury and basically great.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • SerpicoSerpico Registered User
    edited May 2010
    I never really agreed with most criticism of fansubs in general. Sure I run into bad fansubs from time to time, but it's really really rare. For example, only twice so far this season did subs actually give me pause, once due to sparse translation of honorifics/terms which made the english look weird, the other was probably a trollsub or something as it looked just like someone had run the translation through babelfish. In both cases I just switched to another group, and things were fine. Obviously that's not always possible, but generally the groups that do poor work tend to work on either very popular shows or very niche ones that I often don't watch anyway (Especially yuri/yaoi seems to have a drought of good groups/subs in general). I don't really mind where on the localization spectrum a sub falls as long as it doesn't leave so many japanese terms in that the english looks completely retarded, or the screen is cluttered with translation notes. 95% of them are unnecessary, and when they are I much prefer it done the way AFK/gg did with SZS, having every reference on a list independent of the actual episode (word for AFK I believe, and on gg's translator's blog).

    As for styling/fonts/etc, official subs are far more often problematic for me. While fansubs sometimes do stuff I'm not a fan of, it's usually limited to different colors to denote which character is speaking or similar - the worst I've seen was a sub one time that was far too small so I couldn't read it without straining my eyes, but that's the only time I can remember my complaint couldn't be put down to different tastes. Most seasons every show I watch have slick and completely inoffensive subs. In comparison, official subs, while generally also good, more frequently has that butt-ugly yellow styleset, still a remnant from older times when options were limited, or otherwise ugly subs. It's not only in distribution fansubbing is ahead of the industry.

    Notable in this discussion given their apparent streaming success, Crunchyroll tends to do pretty well in the styling department, but their subs for any but the most popular shows tend to have a lot of mistakes (both translation and misspellings/slipups), and they have a ton of translation notes (Gintama is the only somewhat popular show I watch there, and it's got much better translation than what I've seen from their other shows, but a ton of translation notes that also fly by so fast I can't read most without pausing).

    Serpico on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Bioptic wrote: »
    I don't see how American accents are any worse than Japanese accents

    English accents or bust bro.

    Seriously - how weird would it be to pick up a series and find it had been dubbed entirely in UK regional accents? The only thing I can think of that was vaguely comparable was Dragon Quest VIII (with some European accents mixed in) - and it was really refreshing.

    that would be awesome. I'd love to see Dragon Ball Z with all Irish and cockney cast.

    It's not as unbelievable as you might think. There exists a decent range of shows that were all dubbed in Singapore and Hong Kong and, thus, use those countries' own localized English vernacular. I'm pretty sure it's can be understood perfectly by Americans, though none of it ever reaches the United States, and is not put on DVD.

    I generally watch subtitled anyway, so it affects me less.

    As for the whole issue of "stigma"--it's probably a problem (though, frankly, it's far less of a problem than it was, say, ten or fifteen years ago, from what I understand). My viewing schedule has become more and more narrow and has, inadvertently, spared me from a lot of this--I almost exclusively watch stuff that I wouldn't be "embarrassed" or anything of the sort to be watching or purchase on a counter. Right now, my three 'new' shows are Seirei no Moribito, Michiko to Hatchin, and the most recent season/OVA of Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei.

    Maybe not being an American I just don't get it, but I don't find any of these shows any more embarrassing then watching The Boondocks, which I also enjoy.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Maybe not being an American I just don't get it, but I don't find any of these shows any more embarrassing then watching The Boondocks, which I also enjoy.

    I dunno. I find that the vast majority of animé just seems outright retarded. Enjoyable - but very, very stupid.

    Imagine trying to précis the plots of most animé to somebody who didn't know the genre; it's painful. It's partly the western disparagement of Fantasy and Scifi, partly the fairly bad writing in a lot of animé, and partly the popularity of stuff like shonen which is fairly inherently stupid.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • KragunKragun Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    On another note, I agree with what was said earlier that you can't rely on people willing to take a risk on a show to purchase the DVDs. I buy my DVDs of shows I enjoy so I have the ability to watch them again at my leisure. But when you have them available on the internet for your viewing at any time, then there really isn't the need for the DVD.

    I'm interested as well in if the FMA:B subtitled broadcast is profitable for the company. Because if so, that might be the way the industry should head.

    Kragun on
  • tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Opty wrote: »
    The anime industry needs new blood to survive and here's what I think is the things currently blocking them from coming:
    1) No television presence. Adult Swim's not enough and kids' cartoon blocks usually star butchered anime that no one with half a brain wants to watch. People want to watch something first before buying it on DVD and if they can't get it legally then they'll turn to getting it illegally. Hopefully the increased amount of legal online anime streaming will help with this.
    2) Bad fansubs. Fansub groups don't give a shit about professionalism and being correct, they just want to be the first kids on the block with a sub, even if it's absolutely terrible. If someone's trying to get into anime by way of fansubs they'll be scared away by the terrible grammar, tons of untranslated Japanese words, and honorifics all in confetti-colored subtitles covering half the screen.
    3) Moe. The current (thankfully dying) trend in anime scares away people just by looking like what you'd expect a pedophile to get off on.
    4) Anime conventions. Filled with people who have seemingly learned how to interact with others from the anime they watch, these put up a stereotype that people desperately want to avoid becoming, so they never even attempt to watch anime.
    5) The word "anime". Anime has a ton of negative connotations attached to it (mainly from the 90s goldrush) that aren't as prevalent today, namely bad dubbing, animating at 10 frames per second, and $30 for 2 episode DVDs. I think a rebranding of some sort is needed to entice new people but I honestly don't know how it would be done.

    1) I can agree with this. Back when toonami had their anime block that was all the exposure I ever had to the genre. Looking back at it now I see that with the slow release speed of dubs and the sheer amount of filler on the popular series really hurt that aspect of anime more than anything. No one on the western side of the world wants to put up with Goku and Piccolo taking a driving test even though in hindsight it was one of the better filler episodes.

    2) Like all things there will be bad and good, so I don't think this was a hinderance to popularity of anime as a whole. Some would give up after the their first bad experience with a fansub, but I think most would search a bit harder to find a quality fansub. I know I did for some series.

    3) agree with that.

    4) I put anime conventions on the same level as Trekkies and Star wars people. If you can deal with them you will be fine.

    5) I think the name is fine.

    I think the industry shot itself in the foot when they had that first major break of showing anime on Toonami. However with their mentality of not having season breaks for the big franchises I think the filler really turned off a lot of people. The slow release of new episodes like I said earlier was also a big culprit.

    They are trying to right those wrongs now, but it will never be as big as it could have been.

    Also, has the industry ever had a visionary of sorts that had a clue on how to expand the genre beyond Japan or has it been mostly trial by fire?

    tallgeeze on
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bioptic wrote: »
    I don't see how American accents are any worse than Japanese accents

    English accents or bust bro.

    Seriously - how weird would it be to pick up a series and find it had been dubbed entirely in UK regional accents? The only thing I can think of that was vaguely comparable was Dragon Quest VIII (with some European accents mixed in) - and it was really refreshing.

    I suppose that American dubs do lose an awful lot of their appeal outside America, because half of the appeal of dubs is that they make the dialogue more relatable to the viewer - if you're watching a Japanese show dubbed with American voices and mannerisms, you're that much further removed from the experience. That being said, most dubs are just distractingly bad anyway (even the 'better' ones detract slightly from my engagement) - but I notice the Ghibli films have had a suprisngly large amount of money and effort put into theirs, and it shows.

    Didn't the Hellsing anime (both incarnations) have a mostly UK English VA cast? That's another example of a good dub, if you ask me.

    Anzekay on
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    I much prefer leaving in the honorifics to attempting a translation in most cases. Sure, -san can be replaced with Mr., but it gets awkward IMO when they need to think of nicknames in the place of -chan (e.g. Kenny in place of Ken-chan, etc.). A well done dub can and should pull it off, but for subtitles I think it may just be better to leave them in, more a literal translation than a sense translation.
    Imagine trying to précis the plots of most animé to somebody who didn't know the genre; it's painful. It's partly the western disparagement of Fantasy and Scifi, partly the fairly bad writing in a lot of animé, and partly the popularity of stuff like shonen which is fairly inherently stupid.

    This really isn't hard for any slice of life series, as you mention it's mostly anything with any sort of fantastical or science fiction element. Although to be fair a lot of what we do accept sounds ridiculous when summarized too. Batman is about a billionaire orphan turned ninja detective vigilante who dresses as a bat to fight crime and specifically his rogue's gallery of insane villains. By comparison Darker than Black, about agents for various intelligence agencies and shadow organizations who had been granted assorted superhuman abilities by an unexplained event years prior fighting amongst each other covertly, sounds more "serious" despite featuring supernatural abilities where Batman is more grounded in reality.

    Lanlaorn on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    This really isn't hard for any slice of life series, as you mention it's mostly anything with any sort of fantastical or science fiction element. Although to be fair a lot of what we do accept sounds ridiculous when summarized too. Batman is about a billionaire orphan turned ninja detective vigilante who dresses as a bat to fight crime and specifically his rogue's gallery of insane villains. By comparison Darker than Black, about agents for various intelligence agencies and shadow organizations who had been granted assorted superhuman abilities by an unexplained event years prior fighting amongst each other covertly, sounds more "serious" despite featuring supernatural abilities where Batman is more grounded in reality.

    The vast majority of people I know would classify batman as pretty stupid >_<

    It's like anime clusters at one end of the sensibleness spectrum. And even a lot of slice of life anime have pretty ridiculous plots and overuse of some really annoying tropes.

    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I, personally, like the tendency of Japanese writers to happily wander off into fantasy land. But the ratio is so skewed it makes it very hard to take a lot of it seriously.

    And then you have all the ecchi and fanservice stuff that makes the sensible stuff looks bad. I enjoy some anime and manga, but I would never openly tell anybody simply because of the kind of people who are associated with it or the commonly seen examples of the form.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    What's ramen taste like

    Generic ramen is pretty much chicken with noodles in chicken soup. It's really savoury and basically great.

    My favorite flavor was mushroom. They don't make my flava' no more!

    Cantido on
    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Maybe not being an American I just don't get it, but I don't find any of these shows any more embarrassing then watching The Boondocks, which I also enjoy.

    I dunno. I find that the vast majority of animé just seems outright retarded. Enjoyable - but very, very stupid.

    Imagine trying to précis the plots of most animé to somebody who didn't know the genre; it's painful. It's partly the western disparagement of Fantasy and Scifi, partly the fairly bad writing in a lot of animé, and partly the popularity of stuff like shonen which is fairly inherently stupid.

    I'd be inclined to agree with the notion of shounen being...well, pretty close to inherently stupid. That being said, I've got my own biases--for example, watching Gurren Lagaan turn a bunch of college students into raving, drooling 12 year olds.

    The thing is, if we examine it from this context, I think the case could be made that the vast majority of American cartoons--let's say, from the past 20 years, are also "outright retarded". In fact, you might not be even able to make the case they were "retarded but enjoyable". Try "retarded and unenjoyable" more often than not. I mean, I've lived in the US for 5 years now...I can think of quite a few really good animated shows (to be fair, I probably have lower standards in this area, and am easily amused), but I can think of even more really, really bad ones.

    The thing is, all of this is being manufactured to various different audiences, not just demographically, with different interests. TTGL was obviously not made for me, and when I watch it, I find it to be overwhelmingly stupid most of the time. Add to the fact that I honestly think that what's produced in Japan ends up being directed to a far wider band of audiences than what is produced in North America. This can be a good thing--much more variety--or a bad thing--a lot more stupid shit. While it's not a zero-sum game, there is something to be said "The more you produce, for different audiences, eventually, the quality declines" since there are only so many people working in the industry. At the same time, I've heard the argument, "The more you produce, the more likely any particularly viewer is to find a gem".

    I guess just saying "I/we just don't get it, and am not supposed to" isn't really an answer. I've lived in countries in East Asia by and large most of my life, so my viewpoint is coming from someone who sees 'anime' as being the norm, and American cartoon as being the exception. Plus, I can't tell if we've hit a stride in the bubble of how many shows are being produced versus how diverse a number of genres are being represented. That would probably say a lot in the area of quality as well.

    Also, on the subject of anime conventions in the US, I can't really see how they're any more damning to the fandom or industry than, say, Star Wars or Star Trek conventions. The primary difference being you tend to find a far higher percentage of females alongside males at anime conventions. *shrug*

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Kragun wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    Because that would screw up the sentence far, far more.

    There is a balance that needs to be made between precision and intelligibility. You can translate too much, but also not enough. The correct level is somewhere in the middle: keeping honorifics, having a translation note once in a while, and keeping certain complicated and important terms untranslated.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I don't know, I've had the "fun" of this a few times as friends learn I'm into anime and ask about it. I've had people who were bored with Cowboy Bebop (I cannot FATHOM this), something like Bleach has low odds (had the hollows from season one described as "gopher creatures"), one friend just completely flipped out over a talking cat in Darker than Black. Honestly I think some of them were just making excuses for not enjoying the style but who knows.

    Amazingly I've had the most success with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is cool with me since I absolutely love the series, but it's pretty out there.

    It's not just a matter of people liking X genre live action TV so they'll like X genre anime, the difference in style in the formats is large enough to dissuade some people I guess. It's more like trying to get people to read. They like X movie or TV show and you say "Hey, you know there's a book you'd love" or even "Hey that was based on a book" and they try it and hate it. I can't understand it, I love reading, but whatever.

    Lanlaorn on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The thing is, if we examine it from this context, I think the case could be made that the vast majority of American cartoons--let's say, from the past 20 years, are "outright retarded". In fact, you might not be even able to make the case they were "retarded but enjoyable". Try "retarded and unenjoyable".

    I don't watch American Cartoons and would agree with that :P
    Also, on the subject of anime conventions in the US, I can't really see how they're any more damning to the fandom or industry than, say, Star Wars or Star Trek conventions. The primary difference being you tend to find a far higher percentage of females alongside males at anime conventions. *shrug*

    I know a lot of people who don't openly admit to being Star Trek fans for that exact reason.

    EDIT: Probably some of the samurai anime would be good introductions too, because they make the most cultural sense. Kara no Kyoukai would be decent too I guess.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bioptic wrote: »
    I don't see how American accents are any worse than Japanese accents

    English accents or bust bro.

    Seriously - how weird would it be to pick up a series and find it had been dubbed entirely in UK regional accents? The only thing I can think of that was vaguely comparable was Dragon Quest VIII (with some European accents mixed in) - and it was really refreshing.

    I suppose that American dubs do lose an awful lot of their appeal outside America, because half of the appeal of dubs is that they make the dialogue more relatable to the viewer - if you're watching a Japanese show dubbed with American voices and mannerisms, you're that much further removed from the experience. That being said, most dubs are just distractingly bad anyway (even the 'better' ones detract slightly from my engagement) - but I notice the Ghibli films have had a suprisngly large amount of money and effort put into theirs, and it shows.
    The English versions of Ghibli films are really good. The only one that really annoyed me was Ponyo, and that movie kind of did as a whole. I have no idea what the Japanese VAs are like. I prefer the English version of Mononoke. Unfortunately, most places don't have the budget to get voice actors like Disney does. Or to get Neil Gaiman to do the localization.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The thing is, if we examine it from this context, I think the case could be made that the vast majority of American cartoons--let's say, from the past 20 years, are "outright retarded". In fact, you might not be even able to make the case they were "retarded but enjoyable". Try "retarded and unenjoyable".

    I don't watch American Cartoons and would agree with that :P
    Also, on the subject of anime conventions in the US, I can't really see how they're any more damning to the fandom or industry than, say, Star Wars or Star Trek conventions. The primary difference being you tend to find a far higher percentage of females alongside males at anime conventions. *shrug*

    I know a lot of people who don't openly admit to being Star Trek fans for that exact reason.

    EDIT: Probably some of the samurai anime would be good introductions too, because they make the most cultural sense. Kara no Kyoukai would be decent too I guess.

    Honestly, I don't know. I've gone to a lot of conventions for a lot of stuff. Including a lot of stuff I have no fucking idea about. One of my favorite annual conventions is DragonCon in Atlanta, with somewhere in the area of 40,000 people, at least. I'm an amateur photographer, so it's a pretty awesome opportunity to break out the Powershot G7, but I need to actually ask people questions like, "So, what did Lovecraft write?" or "Er, what do these three pins on your uniform collar mean?" and "What Star Wars game are you from again?" or "Who exactly is Frank Hubert? I mean, I know he wrote that book, but..."

    The case may be that I'm an uncultured philistine when it comes to what's big in western literature. :P

    The point is, I'm pretty certain a different kind (or maybe 'caliber') of fan attends these sort of things, which exists entirely separate of "other fans". I don't think people would really be embarrassed to be Star Trek fans unless there were four or five conventions in their particular city every year, given how mainstream things like Star Trek or Star Wars are.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Surely you know the word "Trekkie"? The association is not good!

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I don't know, I've had the "fun" of this a few times as friends learn I'm into anime and ask about it. I've had people who were bored with Cowboy Bebop (I cannot FATHOM this), something like Bleach has low odds (had the hollows from season one described as "gopher creatures"), one friend just completely flipped out over a talking cat in Darker than Black. Honestly I think some of them were just making excuses for not enjoying the style but who knows.

    Amazingly I've had the most success with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is cool with me since I absolutely love the series, but it's pretty out there.

    It's not just a matter of people liking X genre live action TV so they'll like X genre anime, the difference in style in the formats is large enough to dissuade some people I guess. It's more like trying to get people to read. They like X movie or TV show and you say "Hey, you know there's a book you'd love" or even "Hey that was based on a book" and they try it and hate it. I can't understand it, I love reading, but whatever.

    Surprisingly enough, I've had the same experience with Neon Genesis. There's something about it, despite it's flaws and annoying lead character, that seems to draw people into wanting to see more what this whole anime thing has to offer. A couple of people have said it was that they actually have some sort of real response evoked in them by the characters, which they never felt possible in cartoons. A few said it was just the visual style was pretty cool, and one guy said it was because he thought "the red head was hot".

    Anzekay on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Surely you know the word "Trekkie"? The association is not good!

    No, yes, but I think there's a distinction to be made between someone who like Star Trek and someone who qualifies as a "trekkie".

    Then again, with the very big movie that came out recently, it's come a long way from the TV series and whatnot. I might be overestimating the degree in which it's entered the mainstream.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Things like loli, moe? Most people don't have any fucking idea what those even are. That's all your own, personal prejudices and grudges against the genre. The societal problem of anime acceptance is purely because they think anything animated is for children, not because they think cosplaying at a convention is weird or something. They probably don't even know there are conventions. Let alone what the word cosplay means.

    Sakuracon has done more to set back anime in the eyes of people in proximity of the WSCTC than anything put into the media.

    mrt144 on
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I don't know, I've had the "fun" of this a few times as friends learn I'm into anime and ask about it. I've had people who were bored with Cowboy Bebop (I cannot FATHOM this), something like Bleach has low odds (had the hollows from season one described as "gopher creatures"), one friend just completely flipped out over a talking cat in Darker than Black. Honestly I think some of them were just making excuses for not enjoying the style but who knows.

    Amazingly I've had the most success with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is cool with me since I absolutely love the series, but it's pretty out there.

    It's not just a matter of people liking X genre live action TV so they'll like X genre anime, the difference in style in the formats is large enough to dissuade some people I guess. It's more like trying to get people to read. They like X movie or TV show and you say "Hey, you know there's a book you'd love" or even "Hey that was based on a book" and they try it and hate it. I can't understand it, I love reading, but whatever.

    Surprisingly enough, I've had the same experience with Neon Genesis. There's something about it, despite it's flaws and annoying lead character, that seems to draw people into wanting to see more what this whole anime thing has to offer. A couple of people have said it was that they actually have some sort of real response evoked in them by the characters, which they never felt possible in cartoons. A few said it was just the visual style was pretty cool, and one guy said it was because he thought "the red head was hot".

    Well Asuka is introduced in episode 8 lol, so there had to be more he enjoyed that held his attention until then. I know NGE really evoked a lot of responses with me, but I also don't find Shinji annoying (honestly identified more with him than any other anime protagonist, depressed teen antagonizing over awkward social situations? Who hasn't been there?).

    Lanlaorn on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I don't know, I've had the "fun" of this a few times as friends learn I'm into anime and ask about it. I've had people who were bored with Cowboy Bebop (I cannot FATHOM this), something like Bleach has low odds (had the hollows from season one described as "gopher creatures"), one friend just completely flipped out over a talking cat in Darker than Black. Honestly I think some of them were just making excuses for not enjoying the style but who knows.

    Amazingly I've had the most success with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is cool with me since I absolutely love the series, but it's pretty out there.

    It's not just a matter of people liking X genre live action TV so they'll like X genre anime, the difference in style in the formats is large enough to dissuade some people I guess. It's more like trying to get people to read. They like X movie or TV show and you say "Hey, you know there's a book you'd love" or even "Hey that was based on a book" and they try it and hate it. I can't understand it, I love reading, but whatever.

    Surprisingly enough, I've had the same experience with Neon Genesis. There's something about it, despite it's flaws and annoying lead character, that seems to draw people into wanting to see more what this whole anime thing has to offer. A couple of people have said it was that they actually have some sort of real response evoked in them by the characters, which they never felt possible in cartoons. A few said it was just the visual style was pretty cool, and one guy said it was because he thought "the red head was hot".

    Well Asuka is introduced in episode 8 lol, so there had to be more he enjoyed that held his attention until then. I know NGE really evoked a lot of responses with me, but I also don't find Shinji annoying (honestly identified more with him than any other anime protagonist, depressed teen antagonizing over awkward social situations? Who hasn't been there?).

    If I identified with Shinji I would kill myself.

    EDIT: I don't think there is any anime that fills me with more homicidal rage than Eva.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Kragun wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    Because that would screw up the sentence far, far more.

    There is a balance that needs to be made between precision and intelligibility. You can translate too much, but also not enough. The correct level is somewhere in the middle: keeping honorifics, having a translation note once in a while, and keeping certain complicated and important terms untranslated.

    -san has done more to make weeaboo sound like blithering idiots than anything else. I really really wish that no anime ever translated that ever.

    mrt144 on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I don't know, I've had the "fun" of this a few times as friends learn I'm into anime and ask about it. I've had people who were bored with Cowboy Bebop (I cannot FATHOM this), something like Bleach has low odds (had the hollows from season one described as "gopher creatures"), one friend just completely flipped out over a talking cat in Darker than Black. Honestly I think some of them were just making excuses for not enjoying the style but who knows.

    Amazingly I've had the most success with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is cool with me since I absolutely love the series, but it's pretty out there.

    It's not just a matter of people liking X genre live action TV so they'll like X genre anime, the difference in style in the formats is large enough to dissuade some people I guess. It's more like trying to get people to read. They like X movie or TV show and you say "Hey, you know there's a book you'd love" or even "Hey that was based on a book" and they try it and hate it. I can't understand it, I love reading, but whatever.

    Surprisingly enough, I've had the same experience with Neon Genesis. There's something about it, despite it's flaws and annoying lead character, that seems to draw people into wanting to see more what this whole anime thing has to offer. A couple of people have said it was that they actually have some sort of real response evoked in them by the characters, which they never felt possible in cartoons. A few said it was just the visual style was pretty cool, and one guy said it was because he thought "the red head was hot".

    Well Asuka is introduced in episode 8 lol, so there had to be more he enjoyed that held his attention until then. I know NGE really evoked a lot of responses with me, but I also don't find Shinji annoying (honestly identified more with him than any other anime protagonist, depressed teen antagonizing over awkward social situations? Who hasn't been there?).

    If I identified with Shinji I would kill myself.

    EDIT: I don't think there is any anime that fills me with more homicidal rage than Eva.

    Deep breaths, Ham, deep breaths.

    Honestly, Evangelion is not for me (beyond cool scenes like the use of the positron gun and some of the slicker angel fights), but I can appreciate why it could appeal to people with their own troubles.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    There are, obviously, exceptions. Samurai Champloo is one example of an anime which you can show to somebody who hasn't had anything to do with the medium before and they'll probably not think it's too bad. Cowboy Bebop I guess, as well?

    I don't know, I've had the "fun" of this a few times as friends learn I'm into anime and ask about it. I've had people who were bored with Cowboy Bebop (I cannot FATHOM this), something like Bleach has low odds (had the hollows from season one described as "gopher creatures"), one friend just completely flipped out over a talking cat in Darker than Black. Honestly I think some of them were just making excuses for not enjoying the style but who knows.

    Amazingly I've had the most success with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is cool with me since I absolutely love the series, but it's pretty out there.

    It's not just a matter of people liking X genre live action TV so they'll like X genre anime, the difference in style in the formats is large enough to dissuade some people I guess. It's more like trying to get people to read. They like X movie or TV show and you say "Hey, you know there's a book you'd love" or even "Hey that was based on a book" and they try it and hate it. I can't understand it, I love reading, but whatever.

    Surprisingly enough, I've had the same experience with Neon Genesis. There's something about it, despite it's flaws and annoying lead character, that seems to draw people into wanting to see more what this whole anime thing has to offer. A couple of people have said it was that they actually have some sort of real response evoked in them by the characters, which they never felt possible in cartoons. A few said it was just the visual style was pretty cool, and one guy said it was because he thought "the red head was hot".

    Well Asuka is introduced in episode 8 lol, so there had to be more he enjoyed that held his attention until then. I know NGE really evoked a lot of responses with me, but I also don't find Shinji annoying (honestly identified more with him than any other anime protagonist, depressed teen antagonizing over awkward social situations? Who hasn't been there?).

    Well, that was all he told me :) I think the thing with Shinji is more that he sometimes seems to go way overboard with his depressive moaning compared to what is going on- or at least it isn't explained enough for some people's liking. I personally thought he was a bit over the top at times, but eventually they get across the idea that he really is getting pretty messed up in the head with all the stuff that's going on. He truely goes get more bearable (and understandable) as the series goes on. At least to me that is.

    Anzekay on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Kragun wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    Because that would screw up the sentence far, far more.

    There is a balance that needs to be made between precision and intelligibility. You can translate too much, but also not enough. The correct level is somewhere in the middle: keeping honorifics, having a translation note once in a while, and keeping certain complicated and important terms untranslated.

    -san has done more to make weeaboo sound like blithering idiots than anything else. I really really wish that no anime ever translated that ever.

    I don't understand this mindset.

    No one gives Gambit shit for throwing random French into his sentences.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    No one gives Gambit shit for throwing random French into his sentences.

    That's because he'll throw something at you

    and it will explode.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Honestly, Evangelion is not for me (beyond cool scenes like the use of the positron gun and some of the slicker angel fights), but I can appreciate why it could appeal to people with their own troubles.

    That's just insulting, I think DBZ is bad but I'm not going to insinuate that it only appeals to people who are equal parts retards and psychopaths.

    I don't care if you guys enjoyed it or not, I realize it's not for everyone, but NGE had characters with doubts, fears and even nervous breakdowns that are reasonable given the crazy shit going on around them and their fucked up pasts. Most anime protagonists aren't even close in depth. As for relating to it, I think it's easier to identify with the guy who's awkward and lonely than a suave, hip badass like Spike Spiegel, despite how cool it would be to be like him.

    Lanlaorn on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Kragun wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    Because that would screw up the sentence far, far more.

    There is a balance that needs to be made between precision and intelligibility. You can translate too much, but also not enough. The correct level is somewhere in the middle: keeping honorifics, having a translation note once in a while, and keeping certain complicated and important terms untranslated.

    -san has done more to make weeaboo sound like blithering idiots than anything else. I really really wish that no anime ever translated that ever.

    I don't understand this mindset.

    No one gives Gambit shit for throwing random French into his sentences.

    But do fans of gambit throw random cajun into their speech? The problem is how honorifics are so thouroughly foreign to us Americans that they never cease to be annoying when spammed by fans of the genre. Are you telling me if someone used random Cajun to be "cute" you wouldnt get annoyed?

    mrt144 on
  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Kragun wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    Because that would screw up the sentence far, far more.

    There is a balance that needs to be made between precision and intelligibility. You can translate too much, but also not enough. The correct level is somewhere in the middle: keeping honorifics, having a translation note once in a while, and keeping certain complicated and important terms untranslated.

    -san has done more to make weeaboo sound like blithering idiots than anything else. I really really wish that no anime ever translated that ever.

    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    But do fans of gambit throw random cajun into their speech? The problem is how honorifics are so thouroughly foreign to us Americans that they never cease to be annoying when spammed by fans of the genre. Are you telling me if someone used random Cajun to be "cute" you wouldnt get annoyed?

    I've definitely heard that sort of thing, and often with weirder things than Gambit fans or whatever. Like the guy who throws in some British words for no damn reason, i.e. arse instead of ass, shite instead of shit. They've got words for these people, Anglophiles (Francophiles for when it's with french words), they just love the foreign culture and think it's cool in their day to day speech. Oh, and I mean, the obvious "whigger" thing - white suburban kids throwing around ghetto prhases.

    This happens all the time by many different groups of people. But you're right it's usually annoying in every case.

    Lanlaorn on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mrt144 wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Kragun wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    OtakuD00D wrote: »
    Don't even get me started on fansubs. Such a horrible topic to touch upon. For those who don't know how bad it gets, check out Otaking's fansub documentary on Youtube. It's good stuff. That said, someone did make a point earlier here that fansubs aren't something outsiders would really easily stumble upon. For the American audience, TV exposure is usually the first thing. Well, nowadays, it's slowly turning towards the internet, I suppose.
    So I started watching this documentary and uh... I really don't agree with his rant about the translation (or lack thereof) in fansub. The honorifics- how hard is it, really, to understand what sensei, san, and chan mean? I guess there's a few others but those are the more common ones. And there ISN'T an english equivalent for those, trying to translate them into english just makes things weird. The other kind of word is food words, where again, there really isn't an english word for it, so it's a lot easier to leave it as the japanese word. If you don't know what a particular kind of japanese food is, too bad, it really doesn't matter anyway.

    His whole point was that "Hey, look. Other languages have social standing/politeness add ons but you don't see people leaving them into the translation."

    Also, why do they get left in while other structures and sentence forms get translated? We don't really have different ways of referring to ourselves in the form of "I" other than the royal We. Yet you never see the different forms left in the translation to convey this same relationship level.

    Because that would screw up the sentence far, far more.

    There is a balance that needs to be made between precision and intelligibility. You can translate too much, but also not enough. The correct level is somewhere in the middle: keeping honorifics, having a translation note once in a while, and keeping certain complicated and important terms untranslated.

    -san has done more to make weeaboo sound like blithering idiots than anything else. I really really wish that no anime ever translated that ever.

    Man why can't they remove every trace of japanese culture from my cartoons. I don't see why I should have to put up with this shit. They can speak english like normal people. /sarcasm

    I've always seen these complaints as thinly veiled ethnocentricsm. It's pretty offensive. If it aint good american english fuck off am I right?

    I have no time or respect for that viewpoint. Zero.

    It's more a criticism of weeaboo who try and be something they aren't and fail at it spectacular. And I fail to see how taking out honorifics to preserve the integrity of japanese culture at the threat of pasty white nerds is disrespectful in the least. Do you happen to be one of those people that hate dubs though?

    mrt144 on
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