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Anorgasmic, pre-orgasmic. [help with girl thread]

Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
edited April 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
So, I finally got together with this girl I've kind of liked for a while now and things got into the bedroom. Unfortunately she seems to have never had an orgasm before and things down there are just kind of numb for her during intercourse. I'm not one to freak out about this, but, I have to admit it was king of frustrating. No one finished and we kissed and fooled around until she had to leave this morning.

I'm the kind of guy that wants to figure this out for her, if I can. I love sex and the intimacy involved and I feel like this could be an area where she feels really uncomfortable and somehow at fault for not orgasming and that will translate into harder times in other areas of our relationship. But I don't want to make it seem like I'm suddenly transfixed by this lack of orgasm and refuse to focus on anything else; I really like this girl.

I did my best to kind of make it seem like not a big deal and make her realize that I really wanted to see her again and all of that stuff that I genuinely feel; to at least try shake her out of the melancholy funk the whole situation put her in.

I want to know if anyone out there has had experience with this type of situation and what, if anything, can be done to help her and I out of this situation into a relationship where sex is something good and fun we do together because we both enjoy it and really get what we want out of it.

Summation: She's never had an orgasm. What should I do to change this? She's responsive to kissing ear lobe and neck and breast stimulation but after a short while vulva stimulation just stops completely for her.

Uncle Long on

Posts

  • EggyToastEggyToast Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    She has no feeling from clitoral stimulation? What about masturbation or the possibility of a vibrator?

    This isn't generally uncommon with people who are heavily sexually repressed (often referred to as being a "prude"), where they feel that any sort of stimulation on their genitals is wrong and shouldn't feel good. Even if they overcome that and can appreciate sex, the underlying feeling that something isn't quite right about it can cause people to either not enjoy it or experience pain.

    But if that's not the case and she experiences no feeling from clitoral stimulation, it could be a nerve problem. In which case it's more of a medical question.

    EggyToast on
    || Flickr — || PSN: EggyToast
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    It appears she experiences stimulation at first but then it dies down really quickly. She has talked to a doctor about it and got a vibrator but can't get herself off either. I did notice that she had a smaller than average clitoris, does this matter?

    Uncle Long on
  • tardcoretardcore Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    It sounds to me what Eggy said. Maybe she feels like it's wrong in a sense and derives no pleasure from it. I'd have a serious talk with her about that. Tell her you love her and want to show her how amazing it can be.

    tardcore on
  • JPArbiterJPArbiter Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Yeah this is a psychological issue for sure. Size of a clitoris does not really matter, as the same number of Nerve endings connect A to B in terms of physiology.

    as far as things to "losen her up" I would reccomend before you proceed to intercourse, that you spend plenty of intamate time stimulatin her both manually and orally. The Use of KY Warming gel would help as well for additional stimulation.

    JPArbiter on
    Sinning since 1983
  • tardcoretardcore Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    And if at all possible, post pictures.

    tardcore on
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    tardcore wrote: »
    And if at all possible, post pictures.

    Infractioned. Nobody else try to follow in his brave, stupid footsteps.

    Pheezer on
    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
  • PirateJonPirateJon Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    This sounds like a job for G-SPOT!


    Google a how-to for some techniques and help her find it. It can be tricky, ask lots of questions "how this? that? here?" but once the two of you are sucessful you'll be a fucking hero.

    PirateJon on
    all perfectionists are mediocre in their own eyes
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    PirateJon wrote: »
    This sounds like a job for G-SPOT!


    Google a how-to for some techniques and help her find it. It can be tricky, ask lots of questions "how this? that? here?" but once the two of you are sucessful you'll be a fucking hero.

    Though this might be worth a try, remember it definately is not a guarantee, as some people have it in different places - and some not at all (or so I've heard).

    Nogs on
    rotate.jpg
    PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
  • JPArbiterJPArbiter Registered User
    edited April 2007
    you can purchase vibrators designed to directly stimulate the g spot at your local adult novelty store. most will say they are but just to give you an idea, the are thin wands with a large bulb at the end, typically at a 30 degree angle from the core of the wand.

    JPArbiter on
    Sinning since 1983
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Go to a sex shop, theres lotions you can get specifically for her clit that will make it feel better for her (my ex told me it was working for her and she had the EXACT same problem). Other than that, just go through the routine of trying different positions/condoms/toys.

    And check your PMs.

    Grundlterror on
    steam_sig.png
  • LondonBridgeLondonBridge __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    Is she on any kinds of meds? Those can affect sex drive and orgasms.

    LondonBridge on
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Is she on any kinds of meds? Those can affect sex drive and orgasms.

    Good point, thats usually the first place I go in these threads. I was on meds for 7 years (zoloft) and once I got off them I realized how much they were screwing with my sexual drive and enthusiasm.

    Although if she's talked with a doctor about this, I'm sure this has been mentioned.

    Grundlterror on
    steam_sig.png
  • MotherFireflyMotherFirefly Registered User
    edited April 2007
    tardcore wrote: »
    It sounds to me what Eggy said. Maybe she feels like it's wrong in a sense and derives no pleasure from it. I'd have a serious talk with her about that. Tell her you love her and want to show her how amazing it can be.


    In a girl's opinion (who has also never had an orgasm) this is probably it. Yes, I've had sex. But (i think we all remember ED guy) whenever someone would try to get me off to "compensate" for a lack of action, or just in general, I couldn't do it. Personally, I get sick to my stomach, and feel like I'm going t barf, after that it gets to a point where it just really hurts or is numb.

    I think it's a psycological issue, if she's worried about it then I'm sure it's a problem.

    Most of the time during intercourse I "play along"...it's just easier.

    MotherFirefly on
  • tech_huntertech_hunter Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Most of the time during intercourse I "play along"...it's just easier.

    Aww MotherFirefly say it aint so. This makes me a sad panda. For the OP seeing if she is on any medications is a good idea, she might not have thought to ask and not all doctors have a good bedside manner and might not have informed her of certain side effects. So thats one place to start. I have had some expereince with women on medication it can either take a really really long time or it just dont work and the action of trying for so long can just end up being painful.

    tech_hunter on
    Sig to mucho Grande!
  • mr0rangemr0range Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Loosening up seems like the main key, aside from meds, we'll just go based on no meds in the picture.

    I was with a girl and she was a highly free spirit (especially in bed) and she'd orgasm faster than me, we're talking 'guy orgasm' fast. Then there's the ones that can't let go, can't relax or try too hard. Also, sometimes it's a matter of that first one happening then everything after that is rosey. I was with one girlfriend for quite a while who didn't have an orgasm, then one day it just clicked for her and it all went smoothly.

    One thing you can't do is obsess over it. That just puts more pressure on the situation. Just relax, do what seems right and take it easy. Don't try to force it or "make it your duty". Try and figure out what she likes, this all takes time, experiment with positions, talk dirty (minor dirty) see if she likes it, build from it if maybe that's her thing. Some like the rough quick deed, some like the slow carresses, you'll have to just see what she reacts to and read her body language.

    I'd say the key is to relax, keep going, let her know you care, but don't obsess over your goal, sure pay attention to it, but don't go into thinking "okay, tonight is the night I do it!"

    mr0range on
    dvd_banner.jpg
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    This is all helpful advice, thanks.

    So far I'm trying to leave as much pressure out of it as I can, because I kind of equate her lack of Orgasm to the kind of feeling a guy gets when he has had too much to drink and can't get it up and the worst thing in the world is the look of disappointment, and the "It's okay, it happens to everyone," speech. I am sure she feels kind of bad about it, and we've had a really good thing going so far, and I hope that this doesn't get in the way of the relationship on the whole.

    But, as was mentioned earlier, if it is a psychological issue I can only hope she has the patience to figure it out and not just say to hell with it. I would like to explore with her as much as possible, but I'm not sure how willing she will be. She's kind of self-conscious about it I guess; and I would be and have been too. I do appreciate that she didn't try and fake anything with me though so it seems that she at least has a desire to figure it out. I think one of the hardest things to do though is to deal with this problem and defeat my cause at the same time by making her stress out about it, you know, "oh god, please orgasm please orgasm" and then the concentration stops all possibility of pleasure, the way a guy would concentrate on not coming early and coming early because he was concentration, that kind of thing.

    Is there anything in particular that would put her more at ease? I'm willing to try most anything. I just kind of want her to know that I want to make her orgasm, but I don't want to pressure her either, I guess.

    Edit: I've not had to deal with this problem before so I guess I'm a little green with females not orgasming (not to say I'm particularly masculine and godly, but, you know, not orgasming is a concern which is usually alleviated by figuring out what she likes and in general she has had one before and knows how it feels et cetera). She says she's never had one in her life. If she does, is it possible that it will come easier in general after that first time?

    Uncle Long on
  • mr0rangemr0range Registered User
    edited April 2007
    TheLong wrote: »
    She's kind of self-conscious about it I guess;


    This is the hardest part, since she'll have it in her mind, plus then she'll be thinking about you thinking about it also.

    From what I've heard before, if she has NEVER had an orgasm, the best thing for her to do, is masturbate until she does (I don't mean go on for hours until she's tired until she does) I mean, she needs to find out what feels right and what clicks. I've heard that if a girl can't orgasm on her own, then she probably never will with someone else. But I don't know if that was a myth or truth. or somewhat truth.

    mr0range on
    dvd_banner.jpg
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    TheLong wrote: »
    She's kind of self-conscious about it I guess;

    Have you considered just not worrying about it too much?
    Try just doing stuff that feels good to her without having any specific goal in mind.
    mr0range wrote: »
    I've heard that if a girl can't orgasm on her own, then she probably never will with someone else. But I don't know if that was a myth or truth. or somewhat truth.

    It's a generalization. It's often true that women experience their first orgasm through masturbation, but not universally true.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    mr0range wrote: »
    TheLong wrote: »
    She's kind of self-conscious about it I guess;


    This is the hardest part, since she'll have it in her mind, plus then she'll be thinking about you thinking about it also.

    From what I've heard before, if she has NEVER had an orgasm, the best thing for her to do, is masturbate until she does (I don't mean go on for hours until she's tired until she does) I mean, she needs to find out what feels right and what clicks. I've heard that if a girl can't orgasm on her own, then she probably never will with someone else. But I don't know if that was a myth or truth. or somewhat truth.

    Yeah, she's been trying to do it on her own too but she says the same thing happens: It feels really good at first and then just feels kind of numb afterwards.

    It could be as was mentioned earlier that she thinks that masturbation is somehow wrong subconsciously or she is stressing out about it so it's not entirely pleasurable for her.

    Feral: Yes, I'm trying not to worry about it but I do; and I don't think I cannot worry about it. It's not just for the sake of making her orgasm, but it is kind of one of those things I would like to help her achieve so it doesn't weigh on her mind so much as I imagine it does. I mean, sexual frustrations can really make you feel like a shitty person, and I don't want her to feel like that at all.

    I mean, it's not altruistic, I do enjoy the control aspect of female orgasm during sex, and I frankly admit it. But this just seems like the kind of thing that will hang over the relationship until it is resolved; if that makes any sense.

    Uncle Long on
  • 4M3THYST4M3THYST Registered User
    edited April 2007
    One thing that nobody seems to have touched on so far (and understandably so, because it sucks).... is you might find it helpful to talk to her about her previous partner(s). Yes, it will be awkward, and she may not want to talk about it... but you might be able to find out specifics on what absolutley did not come close to working... and the things that may have almost worked. Then go from there. Just be sure not to have this conversation in a sit-down-face-to-face manner. That will just cause more pressure. Strike up the conversation well away from the bedroom, and nowhere near a moment of heated intimacy... perhaps just while the two of you are kicked back watching TV sometime???

    And no-matter what you do, above ALL ELSE: do not let her know you started this thread!!! I'm sure that's a no-brainer, but I'm speaking as a girl here.... she would be mortified! Whether you're trying to help or not. :)

    Good luck!

    4M3THYST on
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    4M3THYST wrote: »
    snip

    And no-matter what you do, above ALL ELSE: do not let her know you started this thread!!! I'm sure that's a no-brainer, but I'm speaking as a girl here.... she would be mortified! Whether you're trying to help or not. :)

    Good luck!


    Nah, this wouldn't be up here if I had any doubt that she would never see it.

    Uncle Long on
  • EggyToastEggyToast Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    As far as "figuring out" how to help her orgasm, there's good news and bad news. The bad news first: you will probably not be able to get her to orgasm if you set out with that purpose. You will try, she'll seem into it, you'll keep going, and then she'll start to lose it and you'll either try harder (to no avail) or you'll end up frustrated after 30 minutes of essentially nothing when you "thought tonight might work."

    She may very well not orgasm for the rest of her life. You need to accept that if you want to help her. If there's nothing wrong with her, then you shouldn't approach it as if there was. Remember that she hasn't had an orgasm, so sex doesn't have a "purpose" of an orgasm for her -- she doesn't strike out to get off, in other words. She has sex for other reasons -- the closeness, the initial good feelings, etc. Those aren't invalid reasons for having sex; they're just different from what a lot of people like about sex.

    The good news is that the cure is practice. You should tell her that you've come to grips with the whole orgasm thing and you're not going to let it bother you. That you're not going to ignore her during intercourse, but that you realize that sex for her still feels good and that she likes it, and that you're going to like it as well. And then have sex frequently. What that will hopefully do is allow her to relax, get used to your body, intercourse in general. It would not surprise me at all if she's had a lot of past boyfriends who are similar -- they're surprised that she hasn't had one and they make it a personal goal to get her to orgasm. When they inevitably fail, they feel that it's a personal flaw of their own, and they lose interest in sex. Don't be that guy.

    Once she's comfortable with you, you should purposefully touch her in ways that could potentially lead to an orgasm. However, you should not do it for the *purpose* of giving her an orgasm -- you need to tell her that it's something you're into doing and that you really like her body. Be slow, use spit, let her relax and don't be afraid to just focus on yourself.

    She may get progressively closer over time, but you can NOT change how you approach sex suddenly to get her off if anything changes. Let her tell you if she wants anything different, don't ask her directly. The only thing you should suggest is whether she wants to watch porn, or if she would like to masturbate with porn.

    The entire problem with people who are unable to orgasm is that they focus on it too much, rather than just relaxing. It doesn't work that way. You need to help her become as relaxed as possible, without the idea of even thinking about an orgasm. For now, you should ignore the orgasm bit and simply go the massage route. Massages are universally relaxing and comforting, and they feel good even without any sex attached. She may not be feeling the same as what you do, but that doesn't mean that different attention isn't good attention.

    I was "that guy" for one relationship in high school, with a girl who had some past partners and dropped that she had never orgasmed at all. And I, too, got in the mindset that it was a goal. As such, the first time we had sex was long and boring, and despite the fact that she had a nice body I lost interest. Relationship went ptthbbbppp.

    It's not an easy mindset to change, and getting into a frame of mind where you essentially just think about yourself isn't easy. Unless there's something chemical going on, based on what you've said I can almost guarantee that the idea that you and past boyfriends have focused on her lack of orgasm has just killed it completely for her. For women like her, you need to ignore the problem while complementing the problem.

    EggyToast on
    || Flickr — || PSN: EggyToast
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Right, right, and that's just what I'm trying to avoid. One of the problems, I think, is showing that I'm not that guy. I mean, it feels natural to do the guy thing; "Oh, something's wrong, I must fix it." Which simply isn't the right way of going about it.

    I understand this and agree.

    The more I think about it the more I get the impression that this really is a psychological thing for her; albeit a feeling of sexual inferiority compounded by several experiences of orgasmless sex leading to an extreme focus on her part on having orgasm which really, I think, stops her from relaxing.

    Part of me thinks that somehow she still feels that sex is wrong that it makes her 'dirty,' somehow for having sex. I think that the situation is further worsened by this having been our first real date outside of talking at her place of business; and maybe coming home with me made her feel kind of, for lack of a better descriptor, 'slutty.' And by not orgasming she somehow didn't really have sex.. well, that's a bit far fetched but I think you know what I mean.

    But, on the same token, she said she felt really comfortable with me. She didn't fake orgasm and she told me quite frankly that she had never been able to. She also told me that she had tried masturbation and had talked with her doctor. And, she stayed with me in bed throughout the night. So, it would seem that at the very least she does trust me even this early on in the relationship. I don't have a "we need to fix this" attitude per se; least not in the sense that by ' fix' I mean orgasm. I want her to feel good, and that means emotionally as well. It really seems to be heartbreaking for her and, as a guy you know how it is when you fail to perform, and I don't want her to feel that way at all.

    I like her and I don't want this to get in between us while at the same time I want to make her feel good.

    Uncle Long on
  • winterwitchwinterwitch Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Hmmmm.... Well. Wow. Lets see. Next time... Make your encounter with her be not about intercourse itself. Being married for quite bit. Sometimes it more of the act of touching that is needed more than anything else. Have a massage session with her. But neither of you are allowed to touch each others sexual "zones" . this will allow her to enjoy the act of touching. you will be surprised how erotic the human body is outside the sex zones. Good luck

    winterwitch on
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  • FireflashFireflash Montreal, QCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sex is not just about stimulation to eventually reach orgasm. Yes the orgasm is usually the high point of a sexual encounter, but there is still a lot of pleasure to have without it. Instead of trying to give her an orgasm, just try to give her pleasure. Like Winterwitch mentionned, there's a whole body to please in many different ways than just sexual stimulation. With experience you'll get to know her better, what she likes, what makes her melt, etc. Over time this will let her enjoy sex with you more and more. Maybe that orgasm will come naturally eventually.

    Fireflash on
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  • SerphimeraSerphimera Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Listen to EggyToast, he really knows what he's talking about.

    Does she know how to bring herself to orgasm? If not, she should buy some KY and go practice alone (with a romance novel, porn, etc). How can you do it right if she doesn't even know what she likes?

    A lot of women have this problem, she needs to learn what she likes. It may take years to work this out, so be patient. Also, don't make her feel guilty in any way because it's not her fault (it's also not your fault either, so don't feel bad), or something she can change just like that.

    You might try buying a book on the subject. "For Yourself" has a step-by-step process you two can go through to learn how to enjoy each other better.

    Serphimera on
    And then I voted.
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Well, the problem has been solved; in the worst way. Sigh.


    To really explain the situation further for anyone interested:

    I'm graduating in about a week and the female concerned was someone I had really dug for a decent while. We had a date on Wednesday and things went really well up until the part this thread is regarding. Now, she had recently gotten out of a relationship, and today when I got a hold of her again she said that the day before we went out she was in the process of reconciliation with her previous boyfriend. so....sigh, she is with him again and I'm kind of out of the picture, which really sucks for me but kind of makes sense for her. I mean, it would be a lot to ask to really start a relationship with someone who may be out of town in a week if not in Japan within the month while you still have this boyfriend you are trying to get back together with.

    So, thanks for the advice but the situation itself has kind of evaporated on me.

    I feel really shitty, especially at the logic of the whole thing. It doesn't make sense, her and I, but the emotional investment, man it hurts, especially when you feel like you've connected on an emotional level and suddenly feel like the whole possibility of even friendship has suddenly disappeared. And those shitty feelings about male adequacy that are just silly but seem to get in my head anyway.

    I'm not so much upset with her as I am with the situation. I'll get over it, but for now it really sucks.

    Uncle Long on
  • X5X5 Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sorry to hear about the situation you are in now, though keep in mind this:

    You were in an intimate relationship with a woman you cared about, and you took the mature route of exploring why she was unable to reach orgasm with you, rather than being an insensitive prick about it.

    Regardless of what is happening now, you seem to have a solid head on you shoulders. You've learned at least one lesson, perhaps a few.

    Again, sorry to hear about her leaving. Good luck in your future endeavors.

    X5 on
    TheX5.png
  • winterwitchwinterwitch Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Awww. I sorry to hear that. Though, I must say, you handled yourself like a true gentleman.

    winterwitch on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Mmmmmm...Gackt-licious
  • NimaNima Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I'd suggest some *tasteful* erotica to get her in the mood... not the average porn thing, which can be embarassing for women. Oh, also erotic literature, either for you to read to her, or for her to read on her own. This is mostly just to get her used to the idea of linking pleasure and sex, and to start to believe that that is okay.

    There's a great website that I don't know if I can post here, so I wil PM you.

    Edit: sorry, just noticed the above post.

    Nima on
  • polarbluepolarblue Registered User
    edited April 2007
    JPArbiter wrote: »
    The Use of KY Warming gel would help as well for additional stimulation.


    just a lil friendly warning not to use the warming gel for anything internal. as there is sugar in them which = possible yeast infection.

    polarblue on
    lost.jpg
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    polarblue wrote: »
    JPArbiter wrote: »
    The Use of KY Warming gel would help as well for additional stimulation.


    just a lil friendly warning not to use the warming gel for anything internal. as there is sugar in them which = possible yeast infection.

    ...seriously? why the fuck do they even make that stuff then?

    Nogs on
    rotate.jpg
    PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
  • snowkissedsnowkissed Registered User
    edited April 2007
    It's unfortunate the way things worked out, but I'm going to post the following anyway.

    In regards to yeast infections: the biggest problem for women and yeast infections is when they do not urinate after intercourse. Lots of bacteria goes in with the penis, so if they don't go to the bathroom, the bacteria stays in there and may develop into a yeast infection. And it's always, always, always a good idea to wash with a warm cloth (JUST water, NO SOAP) before and after.

    Also from the perspective of a woman, you might want to consider spending a lot more time on just foreplay. Some women take a while to simply just warm up and get in the mood. Long sessions of foreplay in which you can involve things like sensual foods or a sensual massage are a good way to relax the mind and warm up the body. She may be stressed out, she may be too worried about pleasing you, she may also be thinking about having the orgasm too much. Generally the inability to have one is simply overthinking it. So much pressure is there from both individuals to have an orgasm, it's often very difficult for a woman to let loose. I know that when I'm stressed out or not really in the mood, it's especially hard to just relax.

    snowkissed on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZetaZeta Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I dated a girl exactly like this for 1.5 years, and heres what I've learned:

    Talk about the issue

    Don't try to force anything

    Make sure she knows you're totally into her to relieve any insecurities she might have

    Don't be scarred to try new things

    And finally, the biggest thing. This is in her head, so theres not just one thing you can do to instantly "fix" it. If it is going to be fixed, it will just seem to happen one day when youre with her.

    Edit: well, looks like everything I said is pretty much useless now. Sorry to hear it.

    Zeta on
  • Uncle LongUncle Long Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Yeah, this thread can be closed unless anyone has an FYI they'd like to use it for. Thanks for the help everyone, I'll be sure to consider it if the situation comes up in the future.

    Uncle Long on
  • PheezerPheezer Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    Locked by request.

    Pheezer on
    IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
    CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
This discussion has been closed.