It's certainly possible to do H HoR without using CC, but I'm pretty sure that instance was designed for CC to be used. Bliz is trying to get us back in the habit of using CC. That's no secret.
It's almost the perfect place for CC. It has a big wide open area(which no one utilizes) and no chance of pulling additional mobs.
I've tanked HoR on a pally (easysauce) and on a warrior (slightly more challenging), and never had or needed CC. It'd be nice if someone sheeped or feared the riflemen, I guess, but it's no biggie.
They're Undead, so likely immune to Fear and definitely immune to Sheep.
It's kinda funny. Whenever HoR comes up, there is inevitably an argument about CC/the nook/etc, but no one points out how retardedly difficult it actually IS to CC an Undead mob. There's only like 2 classes that can reliably stop them (not just "hold them in place" because that does fuck-all for casters).
It also devolves into "No I don't use the nook because I'm a GOOD player"/"No, I use the nook because I'm a GOOD tank.".
Actually paladins can fear undead using Turn Evil.
On a side note, does anybody else feel it's kinda stupid that the trash mobs in the Blood Wing in ICC are undead and yet can be feared by Priests/Warlocks and are immune to Turn Undead?
I got queued up for H HoR last night and came in after a wipe on wave 6. Got in just as the wave was restarting (or someone restarted it I guess is more accurate). No one was over 50% health but I managed to top everyone off and we made it through the rest of that part just fine. It was nerve racking though... I still hate that place.
I used to roll with a good Warlock in TBC that would CC by using fear, then using curse of recklessness to break his fear, then reapply fear to yo yo the mob close enough that it wouldn't agro the next pack, but was still locked down. Too bad they nerfed the ability to do it. Of course, I only ever played with two Warlocks who ever even did it in all my time playing WoW. The rest were too busy alt tabbed jerking it with a rubber band wrapped around whatever key was mapped to shadow bolt.
I have a Warlock as my main, and I so miss Curse of Recklessness. It was great fun flying around Nagrand looking for folks who were solo'ing elites, or hand their hands full with multiple mobs and slap a Curse of Recklessness on the mob(s) and watch the guy crumble
Actually paladins can fear undead using Turn Evil.
On a side note, does anybody else feel it's kinda stupid that the trash mobs in the Blood Wing in ICC are undead and yet can be feared by Priests/Warlocks and are immune to Turn Undead?
I'm not sure why they can't be turned. Being vampires means they don't always follow that same rules as normal undead though,... but classically, I think a vampire would be turnable before they'd be fearable (in the normal sense of fear).
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
I used to roll with a good Warlock in TBC that would CC by using fear, then using curse of recklessness to break his fear, then reapply fear to yo yo the mob close enough that it wouldn't agro the next pack, but was still locked down. Too bad they nerfed the ability to do it. Of course, I only ever played with two Warlocks who ever even did it in all my time playing WoW. The rest were too busy alt tabbed jerking it with a rubber band wrapped around whatever key was mapped to shadow bolt.
I have a Warlock as my main, and I so miss Curse of Recklessness. It was great fun flying around Nagrand looking for folks who were solo'ing elites, or hand their hands full with multiple mobs and slap a Curse of Recklessness on the mob(s) and watch the guy crumble
Whenever I heal heroic HoR on my Priest I never actuallly stand in the nook; I stand out in the middle and Fade if one of the mobs aggros me, and it sends them after the tank every time. I then proceed to shackle Riflemen. I never take damage, the Riflemen never pose a threat (I sometimes get the Mercenaries if I get a shot), and the tank still has all the aggro.
I have about a 45-50% success rate at not pissing off tanks with this method.
I just want to tell you that I wish we played on the same server, because after reading some of your posts, I just want to group with you and do some 5 mans. All my friends who are creative/good players beyond just good DPS and what not have quit the game.
They should change Fear so that it just makes you tremble in place. That way it'd be viable CC in instances and you wouldn't get the occasional "feared and ran out of the world".
They have that effect in the game already, it's called Cower and some NPCs cast it.
I guess this says it all: Blizzard gave all the intelligently designed CCs to NPCs. Sigh...
They should change Fear so that it just makes you tremble in place. That way it'd be viable CC in instances and you wouldn't get the occasional "feared and ran out of the world".
They have that effect in the game already, it's called Cower and some NPCs cast it.
I guess this says it all: Blizzard gave all the intelligently designed CCs to NPCs. Sigh...
Well, is that really intelligently designed though? It's just an extreme CC. It's a stun that doesn't break on damage. We have those, they're just not that long (conc blow is the only one that comes to mind).
Players have cower effects too. Shadow priests have one, I think Locks have a talent that makes fear cause cower when it breaks or something too. It's pvp stuff though. IMO repentance and hex are great designs for CC for classes that Blizzard doesn't want to give more powerful CC. They have CDs and can't be spammed so if a tard breaks them you can't just resheep, but they give those classes the ability to bring that for heroics if needed.
Players have cower effects too. Shadow priests have one, I think Locks have a talent that makes fear cause cower when it breaks or something too.
The Shadow Priest talent is a horror effect with 10 sec disarm on 2 minute cooldown, locks have a talent that slows the target when fear breaks. Neither of these make for reliable CC.
Players have cower effects too. Shadow priests have one, I think Locks have a talent that makes fear cause cower when it breaks or something too.
The Shadow Priest talent is a horror effect with 10 sec disarm on 2 minute cooldown, locks have a talent that slows the target when fear breaks. Neither of these make for reliable CC.
Yeah, i wasn't arguing that either of those is a reliable CC, just that the cower mechanic had been used for players too. Of course, I forgot the SPriest one is actually a horror and the Lock thing was not what I thought I remembered anyway. I guess the main target of Intimidating shout is the only real non moving cower effect players have.
I stand by what I said before though, that all specs that don't currently have any good viable CC like shadow priests, warriors, and DKs should get something akin to Hex or Repentance. It doesn't really change anything in PvP if it has a long CD, and in case they are serious about making people CC in Cata heroics it won't make groups with those classes in them in a worse position because of it.
Well, is that really intelligently designed though?
It allows for precise control as opposed to random stupidity. So yes, IMO it is intelligently designed.
Then again, don't get me started on CC in this game seeing as I'm of the opinion that Bliz has been wrong in their CC designs from the beginning.
I mean, I don't see the argument that 'absolutely works, binary state with no other considerations' to be intelligent design. I personally see it as boring.
I kinda liken it to tanking on my druid compared to tanking on my warrior. Tanking on my warrior is tabbing between targets, making sure TC and DS are up, SW when I can, HT on the pull or to catch stragglers, charging like a pinball... Tanking on my druid is maul macroed to all my abilities, pull with a FF and charge, and swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe. The latter gets the job done much more reliably, but then I fall asleep at my keyboard.
Some people from my guild were 10 man or so the 25 man immortal achievement when the mage gets MC'ed and casts polymorph on the tank, who reflects it and sheeps the mage, who then gets a void under him. Funny stuffs.
Do you still count as an NPC when MC'd and get the full polymorph duration? :P
Complete change in conversation topic but after someone here mentioned the /gs command yesterday I can not believe more people dont know about it. Its the best part of that mod!
Well, is that really intelligently designed though?
It allows for precise control as opposed to random stupidity. So yes, IMO it is intelligently designed.
Then again, don't get me started on CC in this game seeing as I'm of the opinion that Bliz has been wrong in their CC designs from the beginning.
Yeah jeez, fuck Fear.
Blizzard is terrible! Because, as we know, Warlocks have absolutely no real CC options.
Especially not ones that affect demons and elementals.
Ah, Banish and Enslave demon, how I miss thee. You allowed us to kill Hex Lord Malacrass, and blessed us with an easier clear of Heroic Mechanar, but now you have gone to the wayside never to be needed in the entirety of Wrath. =/
Complete change in conversation topic but after someone here mentioned the /gs command yesterday I can not believe more people dont know about it. Its the best part of that mod!
Can you explain because I have no idea what you are talking about you goose.
It's certainly possible to do H HoR without using CC, but I'm pretty sure that instance was designed for CC to be used. Bliz is trying to get us back in the habit of using CC. That's no secret.
It's almost the perfect place for CC. It has a big wide open area(which no one utilizes) and no chance of pulling additional mobs.
I've tanked HoR on a pally (easysauce) and on a warrior (slightly more challenging), and never had or needed CC. It'd be nice if someone sheeped or feared the riflemen, I guess, but it's no biggie.
They're Undead, so likely immune to Fear and definitely immune to Sheep.
It's kinda funny. Whenever HoR comes up, there is inevitably an argument about CC/the nook/etc, but no one points out how retardedly difficult it actually IS to CC an Undead mob. There's only like 2 classes that can reliably stop them (not just "hold them in place" because that does fuck-all for casters).
It also devolves into "No I don't use the nook because I'm a GOOD player"/"No, I use the nook because I'm a GOOD tank.".
Whenever I heal heroic HoR on my Priest I never actuallly stand in the nook; I stand out in the middle and Fade if one of the mobs aggros me, and it sends them after the tank every time. I then proceed to shackle Riflemen. I never take damage, the Riflemen never pose a threat (I sometimes get the Mercenaries if I get a shot), and the tank still has all the aggro.
I have about a 45-50% success rate at not pissing off tanks with this method.
People not staying in the nook make me nervous overall, as a tank.
It's tough enough already timing that first Thunder Clap to get all the mobs in as tight a group as possible at the outset of the pull; with the paladin, it's just a matter of dropping a Consecrate smack in the middle of the opening of the alcove as the pull starts.
The way I see it, if you're outside the nook I treat it like any other instance. If you aggro a mob before I can get to it (rare, as a Paladin), you'd better have a way to get out of trouble because I might not be able to save you.
I haven't really played much WoW recently, but Wintergrasp is the best ganking zone. You can find tons of carebears in the little fire elemental area. I drop out of the sky and smite them most righteously.
And, as a prot paladin, I can't lose, even if it turns out they are geared. 8-)
Fuck you, fuck you so hard for using that word you silly goose.
Which is funny because the paladins shield bash animation reminds me of the care bear stare, a big shield popping out of the chest.
This one time fighting Kel'Thuzad I got frost tombed as I was moving and I did a crazy sort of power slide all the way across the pentagram and *right* into a purple circle of doom. I was laughing so hard in vent and asked if everyone saw me surf to my death. One of the druids battle-rezzed me immediately and we continued on to a steamroll victory.
I still consider that my most awesome/hilariously unfortunate death.
Some people from my guild were 10 man or so the 25 man immortal achievement when the mage gets MC'ed and casts polymorph on the tank, who reflects it and sheeps the mage, who then gets a void under him. Funny stuffs.
A group attempting Immortal doesn't know you can dispel polymorph?
That's the first thing I thought of when I read that, like why would one of your healers or even a ret/prot paladin not dispel the polymorph instantly? I mean it's Kel'thuzad, so your healers were probably DPSing anyway. =P
Never really heard of it putting void zones under MC'd players, and they'd either A: die regardless because they can't control their character, or B: not take any damage because they're mind controlled and can't be damaged by KT's abilities anymore
Never really heard of it putting void zones under MC'd players, and they'd either A: die regardless because they can't control their character, or B: not take any damage because they're mind controlled and can't be damaged by KT's abilities anymore
I don't know that it's a KT ability, though, so much as an environmental hazard.
I'm not sure what would happen, honestly, and all I have to go by is the dude saying his mage buddy died when he polymorphed himself and stepped on a Void Zone.
I mean, I don't see the argument that 'absolutely works, binary state with no other considerations' to be intelligent design. I personally see it as boring.
I could agree with this statement in terms of abilities failing or breaking early.
A fear randomly running a mob through another group isn't exciting in my opinion though, especially since 99 times out of 100 it leads to you not bothering with the CC in the first place since the potential consequences greatly outweigh the benefits. Mobs that flee at low health accomplish the same idea and force you, with prior knowledge after the first time you encounter it, to account for the mob's actions in the way you fight as opposed to just randomly causing you to hold your breath in anticipation of fear possibly helping or boning you.
Never really heard of it putting void zones under MC'd players, and they'd either A: die regardless because they can't control their character, or B: not take any damage because they're mind controlled and can't be damaged by KT's abilities anymore
I don't know that it's a KT ability, though, so much as an environmental hazard.
I'm not sure what would happen, honestly, and all I have to go by is the dude saying his mage buddy died when he polymorphed himself and stepped on a Void Zone.
I still feel like the healers were bad and didn't dispel, or he didn't say anything
Easily could have happened tho, I am indeed curious what occurs if an MC player stands on a void zone.
He wouldn't void zone MC'd players because they're considered friendly to him. The only way for that story to make sense is if he got his Poly reflected onto him, it was full duration since he was considered a mob when it hit, and right after he stopped being MC'd he got void zoned and he didn't say anything so he stayed a sheep and died.
Re: Fear, What they should do is make a glyph that changes your fear into a horror (aka forces a rooting cower effect) but makes it break on damage quicker (or just plain break on damage).
I mean, I don't see the argument that 'absolutely works, binary state with no other considerations' to be intelligent design. I personally see it as boring.
I could agree with this statement in terms of abilities failing or breaking early.
A fear randomly running a mob through another group isn't exciting in my opinion though, especially since 99 times out of 100 it leads to you not bothering with the CC in the first place since the potential consequences greatly outweigh the benefits. Mobs that flee at low health accomplish the same idea and force you, with prior knowledge after the first time you encounter it, to account for the mob's actions in the way you fight as opposed to just randomly causing you to hold your breath in anticipation of fear possibly helping or boning you.
I agree fear is mostly useless since it's so likely to make things worse, but I was arguing that a cower CC is just boring. It says, "this enemy won't hurt you, won't move, won't aggro other guys, and is available to be attacked. It doesn't matter if it's ranged, caster, or melee. It's just locked down completely. Fire and forget about him, or just burn him." All CC is basically this, with twists, like being immune or only lasting until not being damage or only stopping them in place or even just slowing their attacks (technically a form of CC). Those twists make it interesting.
You're also granted immunity shortly after the MC to void zones. We've had a few people polymorphed in naxx25 right over a void zone and live after it wore off. It wasn't an issue, really.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Well, fear breaks after X amount of damage, so "cower" would work the same way.
I was under the impression that cower as we were discussing it was like Falric's abilities, though, which does not.
I was under the impression that we were discussing making fear viable CC by making the target not run around like a headless chicken and some people bringing up this whole NPC "cower" ability.
NPC abilities differ greatly from player abilities, anyway.
Anyone want some spoilers? I mean really big spoilers here, we're talking the majority of the Gilneas and Westfall questlines. Including spoiling what is probably meant to be a HUGE surprise. Pictures too.
Oh, and in case you just want some sort of picture to whet your appetite without going through the whole mess:
Why is Westfall burning? Why is that hairy gentleman just watching? Why can't anyone realize that Nathan Fillion should do a movie with Bruce Campbell?
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Actually paladins can fear undead using Turn Evil.
On a side note, does anybody else feel it's kinda stupid that the trash mobs in the Blood Wing in ICC are undead and yet can be feared by Priests/Warlocks and are immune to Turn Undead?
I have a Warlock as my main, and I so miss Curse of Recklessness. It was great fun flying around Nagrand looking for folks who were solo'ing elites, or hand their hands full with multiple mobs and slap a Curse of Recklessness on the mob(s) and watch the guy crumble
I'm not sure why they can't be turned. Being vampires means they don't always follow that same rules as normal undead though,... but classically, I think a vampire would be turnable before they'd be fearable (in the normal sense of fear).
Oh that is evil. And wonderful.
I just want to tell you that I wish we played on the same server, because after reading some of your posts, I just want to group with you and do some 5 mans. All my friends who are creative/good players beyond just good DPS and what not have quit the game.
I guess this says it all: Blizzard gave all the intelligently designed CCs to NPCs. Sigh...
Pins!
Well, is that really intelligently designed though? It's just an extreme CC. It's a stun that doesn't break on damage. We have those, they're just not that long (conc blow is the only one that comes to mind).
It allows for precise control as opposed to random stupidity. So yes, IMO it is intelligently designed.
Then again, don't get me started on CC in this game seeing as I'm of the opinion that Bliz has been wrong in their CC designs from the beginning.
Pins!
The Shadow Priest talent is a horror effect with 10 sec disarm on 2 minute cooldown, locks have a talent that slows the target when fear breaks. Neither of these make for reliable CC.
Yeah, i wasn't arguing that either of those is a reliable CC, just that the cower mechanic had been used for players too. Of course, I forgot the SPriest one is actually a horror and the Lock thing was not what I thought I remembered anyway. I guess the main target of Intimidating shout is the only real non moving cower effect players have.
I stand by what I said before though, that all specs that don't currently have any good viable CC like shadow priests, warriors, and DKs should get something akin to Hex or Repentance. It doesn't really change anything in PvP if it has a long CD, and in case they are serious about making people CC in Cata heroics it won't make groups with those classes in them in a worse position because of it.
I mean, I don't see the argument that 'absolutely works, binary state with no other considerations' to be intelligent design. I personally see it as boring.
I kinda liken it to tanking on my druid compared to tanking on my warrior. Tanking on my warrior is tabbing between targets, making sure TC and DS are up, SW when I can, HT on the pull or to catch stragglers, charging like a pinball... Tanking on my druid is maul macroed to all my abilities, pull with a FF and charge, and swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe-swipe. The latter gets the job done much more reliably, but then I fall asleep at my keyboard.
Do you still count as an NPC when MC'd and get the full polymorph duration? :P
Yeah jeez, fuck Fear.
Blizzard is terrible! Because, as we know, Warlocks have absolutely no real CC options.
Especially not ones that affect demons and elementals.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Ah, Banish and Enslave demon, how I miss thee. You allowed us to kill Hex Lord Malacrass, and blessed us with an easier clear of Heroic Mechanar, but now you have gone to the wayside never to be needed in the entirety of Wrath. =/
Can you explain because I have no idea what you are talking about you goose.
Also, wuts geerscor?
People not staying in the nook make me nervous overall, as a tank.
It's tough enough already timing that first Thunder Clap to get all the mobs in as tight a group as possible at the outset of the pull; with the paladin, it's just a matter of dropping a Consecrate smack in the middle of the opening of the alcove as the pull starts.
A group attempting Immortal doesn't know you can dispel polymorph?
I don't know that it's a KT ability, though, so much as an environmental hazard.
I'm not sure what would happen, honestly, and all I have to go by is the dude saying his mage buddy died when he polymorphed himself and stepped on a Void Zone.
I could agree with this statement in terms of abilities failing or breaking early.
A fear randomly running a mob through another group isn't exciting in my opinion though, especially since 99 times out of 100 it leads to you not bothering with the CC in the first place since the potential consequences greatly outweigh the benefits. Mobs that flee at low health accomplish the same idea and force you, with prior knowledge after the first time you encounter it, to account for the mob's actions in the way you fight as opposed to just randomly causing you to hold your breath in anticipation of fear possibly helping or boning you.
Pins!
I still feel like the healers were bad and didn't dispel, or he didn't say anything
Easily could have happened tho, I am indeed curious what occurs if an MC player stands on a void zone.
Re: Fear, What they should do is make a glyph that changes your fear into a horror (aka forces a rooting cower effect) but makes it break on damage quicker (or just plain break on damage).
I agree fear is mostly useless since it's so likely to make things worse, but I was arguing that a cower CC is just boring. It says, "this enemy won't hurt you, won't move, won't aggro other guys, and is available to be attacked. It doesn't matter if it's ranged, caster, or melee. It's just locked down completely. Fire and forget about him, or just burn him." All CC is basically this, with twists, like being immune or only lasting until not being damage or only stopping them in place or even just slowing their attacks (technically a form of CC). Those twists make it interesting.
I was under the impression that cower as we were discussing it was like Falric's abilities, though, which does not.
It'd be the most broken buff in the game, and they'd FINALLY make it stop healing.
I was under the impression that we were discussing making fear viable CC by making the target not run around like a headless chicken and some people bringing up this whole NPC "cower" ability.
NPC abilities differ greatly from player abilities, anyway.
Oh, and in case you just want some sort of picture to whet your appetite without going through the whole mess:
Why is Westfall burning? Why is that hairy gentleman just watching? Why can't anyone realize that Nathan Fillion should do a movie with Bruce Campbell?