Sailing. For hours. With almost nothing of interest occuring.
The gutted third dungeon.
The Triforce 'Quest'.
Regimented exploration (as mentioned, one 'interest' per box).
Easy. Easy easy easy. Criminally easy.
The final fight being over in under a minute.
Lacklustre dungeons in the second leg of the game.
Only one place that has more than ten minute's non-quest content (Windfall island).
That stupid, stupid stealth section in the Forsaken Fortress.
It did have some great moments and was a good game, of course. The Deku tree was great, the music was generally really good (esp. dragon roost), the animations were solid and the storytelling, when it happened, was fine. But there was an unconvincing incompleteness to the world. You always felt like there should be a little bit more detail, another NPC or two, some more hidden areas. It certainly offered the least exploratory experience of any Zelda game - though some people were (frankly) hoodwinked into thinking the size of the ocean could substitute for adventure.
Sailing. For hours. With almost nothing of interest occuring.
The gutted third dungeon.
The Triforce 'Quest'.
Regimented exploration (as mentioned, one 'interest' per box).
Easy. Easy easy easy. Criminally easy.
The final fight being over in under a minute.
Lacklustre dungeons in the second leg of the game.
Only one place that has more than ten minute's non-quest content (Windfall island).
That stupid, stupid stealth section in the Forsaken Fortress.
It did have some great moments and was a good game, of course. The Deku tree was great, the music was generally really good (esp. dragon roost), the animations were solid and the storytelling, when it happened, was fine. But there was an unconvincing incompleteness to the world. You always felt like there should be a little bit more detail, another NPC or two, some more hidden areas. It certainly offered the least exploratory experience of any Zelda game - though some people were (frankly) hoodwinked into thinking the size of the ocean could substitute for adventure.
I agree with basically all your complaints.
I want to know though, why you thought the dungeons in TP were so much better.
I thought they were both criminally easy.
It certainly offered the least exploratory experience of any Zelda game - though some people were (frankly) hoodwinked into thinking the size of the ocean could substitute for adventure.
This however, is flat out wrong. Wind Waker has about 17 times more optional content than Twilight Princess.
It certainly offered the least exploratory experience of any Zelda game - though some people were (frankly) hoodwinked into thinking the size of the ocean could substitute for adventure.
This however, is flat out wrong. Wind Waker has about 17 times more optional content than Twilight Princess.
You must not have replayed TP in a while. Poe hunting, bug hunting, learning extra moves, several minigames in castle town, at least four major minigames in the world at large, fishing, upgrading the shop, optional items, and a lot more.
Wind Waker had only one extra move, and didn't even have fishing despite being set on the biggest possible body of water. Maybe by 17 times more content, you mean it takes 17 times longer due to sailing. Or perhaps you were fooled by items like necklaces and feathers which really add no extra depth to the optional collecting.
Just because you don't have to photograph everyone in the world (incredibly lengthy and frustrating, with only 3 pics per excursion) doesn't mean it lacks content.
Just because you don't have to photograph everyone in the world (incredibly lengthy and frustrating, with only 3 pics per excursion) doesn't mean it lacks content.
This is probably the only bone I have to pick with WW
WW was the first 3D Zelda I played, and for a while I thought I loved it because it was the best. Then I realized it's because they're all basically exactly the same and I happened to play it first. Zelda needs a refresh in design more than any series outside of Sonic, IMO. It's boring, stale, and has been completely surpassed at providing that feeling of exploration and discovery at this point.
It's pretty funny that you write off Wind Waker's optional content as mindless fetch quests but the majority of the things you listed in Twilight Princess are fetch quests.
In terms of minigames they have a similar amount, though Fishing has the most depth. But the thing that you are neglecting is that the majority of the islands have some little puzzle, something that you had to figure out to get a heart piece, a blah or a blah. Or they had a submarine to clear out.
Also windfall island, almost every person has some sort of interaction you can have with them. Compare this to kakariko and castle town from TP. one is a literal ghost town and the other while bustling only has about 3 people you can interact with or something. At least in that way it reminded me of castle town from OoT
I got to laugh at the people who say that WW needed more things to explore/more NPCs, etc. It's a post-apocalyptic society of a few tiny islands in the middle of a big damn ocean. I thought the entire game carried that mood very well. The whole time you are sailing--at least for me--there is a bit of inherent sadness of a world long forgotten.
Those are the kinds of things that pull me in.
Also, I don't know how you can complain about the sailing...Twilight Princess had just as much mindless horse-riding.
Cameron_Talley on
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I want to know though, why you thought the dungeons in TP were so much better.
I thought they were both criminally easy.
TP dungeons had a lot more logic puzzles than WW, and they were sometimes pretty clever - see the water temple. I don't think you can really play WW, which you can sleepwalk through frankly, and then go to some of the puzzles in TP and not see a difference. For example, there are some fiendish block puzzles of the classic mould.
The dungeon design in general also flowed much better. Dragon roost island was the only temple in WW that really felt like it was part of the world and that felt like it wasn't just a dungeon designed in isolation of its surroundings. Take the forbidden woods as a good example: thematically, the lead-up was very coherent. But then you reach the dungeon and it doesn't feel at all like you're actually in a giant tree. It just feels like something that was made seperately and then textured with a 'plant' brush.
I think that's really what I'm driving at. You think about the Forest Temple in OoT. That never felt out of place. It felt like it had been there for years and years. Same with the Desert Colossus, Jabu Jabu, the Deku Tree, Dodongo's Cavern... really, almost all of them. Then you look at the Wind Waker:
Do you really remember the earth or wind temple particularly? They were just so nondescript.
In Twilight Princess I think they rediscovered this ability to make dungeons themeatically coherent. The Yeti house and the Arbiter's Grounds are great examples of this.
In terms of minigames they have a similar amount, though Fishing has the most depth. But the thing that you are neglecting is that the majority of the islands have some little puzzle, something that you had to figure out to get a heart piece, a blah or a blah. Or they had a submarine to clear out.
And TP has caves all over the world with enemies to clear out, as well as other minor puzzles (for example, the place where you ride the rails with the spinning top in the overworld). Additionally, TP has more dungeons overall - while they aren't optional content, this equalizes the two games' amount of minor puzzles for heart pieces and such.
And they both have a nice pit of 100 ordeals. They're pretty much equal in optional content.
I got to laugh at the people who say that WW needed more things to explore/more NPCs, etc. It's a post-apocalyptic society of a few tiny islands in the middle of a big damn ocean. I thought the entire game carried that mood very well. The whole time you are sailing--at least for me--there is a bit of inherent sadness of a world long forgotten.
Those are the kinds of things that pull me in.
Also, I don't know how you can complain about the sailing...Twilight Princess had just as much mindless horse-riding.
If they had had more dungeons, then I might agree with you. But given that WW was pock-marked with the gaping holes where content should be, it's hard to feel charitable enough to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to content lacking elsewhere.
I also think you overstate how much horse-riding there is in TP. And at least when horse-riding you can look at things apart from the occasional giant oktorok.
But seriously there was quite a lot of incidental variance in TP, there really was. I think people have short memories. What about navigating through the blizzard and snow as a wolf? Or the little caves that they reintroduced, LTTP/OoT style? Don't you remember having to fly down the canyon to Lake Hyrule? Or the little dogs in castle town? What about the abandoned Sheikah village or the bridge jousting?
Seriously, TP had a wealth of content. People are blinkered.
In terms of minigames they have a similar amount, though Fishing has the most depth. But the thing that you are neglecting is that the majority of the islands have some little puzzle, something that you had to figure out to get a heart piece, a blah or a blah. Or they had a submarine to clear out.
And TP has caves all over the world with enemies to clear out, as well as other minor puzzles (for example, the place where you ride the rails with the spinning top in the overworld). Additionally, TP has more dungeons overall - while they aren't optional content, this equalizes the two games' amount of minor puzzles for heart pieces and such.
And they both have a nice pit of 100 ordeals. They're pretty much equal in optional content.
Well this is a blatant lie, unless you decided to go out of your way to ride the horse in circles for a few hours after each dungeon.
Yeah I can agree with this. I guess I'm starting to understand TP's appeal a bit better now.
I mean I'll be the first to admit that TP has a smaller overworld. If you consider that a bad thing, that's fine, but you also have to admit that given a smaller world (and a much easier to control vehicle!) there is far, far less boring travel in TP than in WW. Like at least 80% less.
But seriously there was quite a lot of incidental variance in TP, there really was. I think people have short memories. What about navigating through the blizzard and snow as a wolf? Or the little caves that they reintroduced, LTTP/OoT style? Don't you remember having to fly down the canyon to Lake Hyrule? Or the little dogs in castle town? What about the abandoned Sheikah village or the bridge jousting?
Seriously, TP had a wealth of content. People are blinkered.
I agree that TP had a lot of compelling content, but almost all of it was required as part of the storyline. The bridge joust was amazing, as was the bird ride and the journey to the ice mansion.
I think the disconnect comes from the fact that a lot of people (myself included) sort of fetishize completely optional stuff. Sidequests are what makes the game feel like a place. And Twilight princess definitely had the worst major towns of any 3d zelda.
I didn't actually mind the sailing in WW that much. The graphics were amazing enough for me not to mind. The one thing I missed was that, in a trailer, there was a massive tsunami about to bowl over Link as he swam to the boat. That wasn't in the game.
And, there was at least one event per island. They wern't totally void. Also, what the hell was the point of the little sidecaves in TP? More useless rupees?
However, I think we can all agree that TP had the best boss fights.
My opinion on the ocean in WW is skewed by the fact that I ran into the Ghost Ship somewhere between the dragon island and forest island, and forever after I felt as though there could be anything there. Just because there wasn't usually didn't stop me from scouring the horizons for the next interesting thing to appear.
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
Part of me when I was exploring every little island in Wind Waker was like "I know this is, in a way, kind of lackluster' but then the music swells, the sun rises and a flock of seagulls follows my boat as the silhouette of the island takes shape and I forget that there is probably only going to be a pretty minor puzzle and a heart piece or something.
I think the main problem people have with TP is indeed the speed at which you can get from one thing to do to the next. If you know where every bug and poe are at, like with a walkthrough or something, you could probably find them all within a few hours. But even knowing where every person you can photograph is at, it takes a really, really long time, even with warping.
Is a game better if it simply takes longer to do the same sort of content as another game? That's an honest question. Does WW feel better to most people just because of the time it takes to sail? Performing even small actions for small rewards are significant because it took you 15 minutes just to get there.
I think the main problem people have with TP is indeed the speed at which you can get from one thing to do to the next. If you know where every bug and poe are at, like with a walkthrough or something, you could probably find them all within a few hours. But even knowing where every person you can photograph is at, it takes a really, really long time, even with warping.
Is a game better if it simply takes longer to do the same sort of content as another game? That's an honest question. Does WW feel better to most people just because of the time it takes to sail? Performing even small actions for small rewards are significant because it took you 15 minutes just to get there.
The thing is the first time you play through Wind Waker for a long time you will be sailing routes that you haven't done at all before. In fact pretty much as soon as you have to backtrack you get the warp song. So this means that the majority of your long trips will be broken up around every two minutes by the discovery of a new island.
The question is do these little islands provide enough of a hook to intrigue the player, and make them want to keep exploring? It did for me, but I am a whore for exploration in games. I can understand how it wouldn't because most of the discoveries were pretty lame.
About the only thing you are likely to stumble across when exploring in TP is a hidden grotto. Though those were pretty cool.
The question is do these little islands provide enough of a hook to intrigue the player, and make them want to keep exploring? It did for me, but I am a whore for exploration in games. I can understand how it wouldn't because most of the discoveries were pretty lame.
They would have provided enough of a hook if they weren't rendered predictable and therefore unexciting by the stupid one-per-square system.
What's the point of exploring when you know when you're going to find something, and how many things they are to find?
Well, it was obvious that the grid system was how they handled streaming in new islands. Each square stored all the objects and geometry, and when you got near an edge, it would start pulling in data for the next square.
The only two solutions to this are:
* increase the number of squares visually represented. This results in squares that don't have anything. People bitch and complain about empty squares.
* reduce the number of squares visually represented. Now you have multiple islands in a square, but people bitch about the "small" world because now instead of 12x12 it's 6x6. Also, location becomes harder.
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3DS FC: 5343-7720-0490
We'll see something that will get us hyped up and the game will disappear for another year and a half.
Hey.. I woulda emailed you one.
I was juat asleep.
I do love my guide book for Spirit Tracks..
But saying that exploration is no fun because there is exactly one island on each square? ridiculous
https://medium.com/@alascii
Finally, people who understand!
It did have some great moments and was a good game, of course. The Deku tree was great, the music was generally really good (esp. dragon roost), the animations were solid and the storytelling, when it happened, was fine. But there was an unconvincing incompleteness to the world. You always felt like there should be a little bit more detail, another NPC or two, some more hidden areas. It certainly offered the least exploratory experience of any Zelda game - though some people were (frankly) hoodwinked into thinking the size of the ocean could substitute for adventure.
Oh I did?
They've always been easy once you get a decent amount of hearts.
Absolutely the best part of WW
I agree with basically all your complaints.
I want to know though, why you thought the dungeons in TP were so much better.
I thought they were both criminally easy.
https://medium.com/@alascii
This however, is flat out wrong. Wind Waker has about 17 times more optional content than Twilight Princess.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Now if the obsessives over at gamefaqs can't even find enough things to do to write a stupid walkthrough then you know something has gone wron.
https://medium.com/@alascii
You must not have replayed TP in a while. Poe hunting, bug hunting, learning extra moves, several minigames in castle town, at least four major minigames in the world at large, fishing, upgrading the shop, optional items, and a lot more.
Wind Waker had only one extra move, and didn't even have fishing despite being set on the biggest possible body of water. Maybe by 17 times more content, you mean it takes 17 times longer due to sailing. Or perhaps you were fooled by items like necklaces and feathers which really add no extra depth to the optional collecting.
Just because you don't have to photograph everyone in the world (incredibly lengthy and frustrating, with only 3 pics per excursion) doesn't mean it lacks content.
Although don't be sniffy about me using 'you' instead of 'one'.
This is probably the only bone I have to pick with WW
Such a dumb sidequest
There.
I said it.
In terms of minigames they have a similar amount, though Fishing has the most depth. But the thing that you are neglecting is that the majority of the islands have some little puzzle, something that you had to figure out to get a heart piece, a blah or a blah. Or they had a submarine to clear out.
Also windfall island, almost every person has some sort of interaction you can have with them. Compare this to kakariko and castle town from TP. one is a literal ghost town and the other while bustling only has about 3 people you can interact with or something. At least in that way it reminded me of castle town from OoT
https://medium.com/@alascii
Those are the kinds of things that pull me in.
Also, I don't know how you can complain about the sailing...Twilight Princess had just as much mindless horse-riding.
3DS Friend Code: 0404-6826-4588 PM if you add.
The dungeon design in general also flowed much better. Dragon roost island was the only temple in WW that really felt like it was part of the world and that felt like it wasn't just a dungeon designed in isolation of its surroundings. Take the forbidden woods as a good example: thematically, the lead-up was very coherent. But then you reach the dungeon and it doesn't feel at all like you're actually in a giant tree. It just feels like something that was made seperately and then textured with a 'plant' brush.
I think that's really what I'm driving at. You think about the Forest Temple in OoT. That never felt out of place. It felt like it had been there for years and years. Same with the Desert Colossus, Jabu Jabu, the Deku Tree, Dodongo's Cavern... really, almost all of them. Then you look at the Wind Waker:
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Category:The_Legend_of_Zelda:_The_Wind_Waker_dungeons
Do you really remember the earth or wind temple particularly? They were just so nondescript.
In Twilight Princess I think they rediscovered this ability to make dungeons themeatically coherent. The Yeti house and the Arbiter's Grounds are great examples of this.
And TP has caves all over the world with enemies to clear out, as well as other minor puzzles (for example, the place where you ride the rails with the spinning top in the overworld). Additionally, TP has more dungeons overall - while they aren't optional content, this equalizes the two games' amount of minor puzzles for heart pieces and such.
And they both have a nice pit of 100 ordeals. They're pretty much equal in optional content.
Well this is a blatant lie, unless you decided to go out of your way to ride the horse in circles for a few hours after each dungeon.
I also think you overstate how much horse-riding there is in TP. And at least when horse-riding you can look at things apart from the occasional giant oktorok.
But seriously there was quite a lot of incidental variance in TP, there really was. I think people have short memories. What about navigating through the blizzard and snow as a wolf? Or the little caves that they reintroduced, LTTP/OoT style? Don't you remember having to fly down the canyon to Lake Hyrule? Or the little dogs in castle town? What about the abandoned Sheikah village or the bridge jousting?
Seriously, TP had a wealth of content. People are blinkered.
Yeah I can agree with this. I guess I'm starting to understand TP's appeal a bit better now.
https://medium.com/@alascii
I agree that TP had a lot of compelling content, but almost all of it was required as part of the storyline. The bridge joust was amazing, as was the bird ride and the journey to the ice mansion.
I think the disconnect comes from the fact that a lot of people (myself included) sort of fetishize completely optional stuff. Sidequests are what makes the game feel like a place. And Twilight princess definitely had the worst major towns of any 3d zelda.
https://medium.com/@alascii
And, there was at least one event per island. They wern't totally void. Also, what the hell was the point of the little sidecaves in TP? More useless rupees?
However, I think we can all agree that TP had the best boss fights.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Is a game better if it simply takes longer to do the same sort of content as another game? That's an honest question. Does WW feel better to most people just because of the time it takes to sail? Performing even small actions for small rewards are significant because it took you 15 minutes just to get there.
Made everything easier to keep track of
Link (oho) coming shortly...
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?p=15149932#post15149932
The thing is the first time you play through Wind Waker for a long time you will be sailing routes that you haven't done at all before. In fact pretty much as soon as you have to backtrack you get the warp song. So this means that the majority of your long trips will be broken up around every two minutes by the discovery of a new island.
The question is do these little islands provide enough of a hook to intrigue the player, and make them want to keep exploring? It did for me, but I am a whore for exploration in games. I can understand how it wouldn't because most of the discoveries were pretty lame.
About the only thing you are likely to stumble across when exploring in TP is a hidden grotto. Though those were pretty cool.
https://medium.com/@alascii
What's the point of exploring when you know when you're going to find something, and how many things they are to find?
The only two solutions to this are:
* increase the number of squares visually represented. This results in squares that don't have anything. People bitch and complain about empty squares.
* reduce the number of squares visually represented. Now you have multiple islands in a square, but people bitch about the "small" world because now instead of 12x12 it's 6x6. Also, location becomes harder.