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[WoW] What Are All These Buttons, Paladin Thread?

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Posts

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, thanks to the lame ass cap on shield slam damage, HotR is our hardest hitting attack, especially with 2pc T10.

    Joshmvii on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Ok pally thread. I'm stuck. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Smolderthorn&cn=Dohaeris

    I have no idea what to do now, aside from try and get into pug ToCs on my server. GS (4900) is too low for ICC people tell me (Which i'm fairly sure is bullshit) but I can't seem to get into anything else to get gear!

    Yeah, looks like ToC is your best bet.

    Your Shield, Belt, and Cloak are the three biggest problems here.

    Shield: well, there's one from ToC 10 and one from ToC 25 (ToC 25 is off beasts, ToC 10 is off Anub I think?)

    Cloak: Save up your Frosts and get the cloak from the Frost Badge Vendor. Easily BiS for a long time.

    Belt: Same deal, but here you can make a side stop and pick up the one from the Conquest badge vendor. It'll last you until then and let you pick up the cloak first.

    Other minor upgrades I noticed:

    Weapon you may want to pick up Rimfang's Claw (Or whatever the one is from Tyrannus in HPoS). The one you are wielding is not bad for Heroics, but Shield Block Rating isn't as hot in raids. The Weapon chain is okay, but consider switching up to Accuracy or maybe even Blood Draining.

    Your shoulders do not have an enchant on them, neither does your chest.

    Gemming is a bit odd, I see alot of gemming for hit, and one gem for dodge. Ditch the dodge gem for either str/stam or agi/stam.

    Nobody on
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Yeah, thanks to the lame ass cap on shield slam damage, HotR is our hardest hitting attack, especially with 2pc T10.

    I have been running 2pc T10 and 2pc Triumph T9, with glyphed HotR, and Seal of Command for the longest time now. I love it so much. I don't understand why blizzard would let this happen.

    The only downside is I see a ton of deflects and parries when not using SoV. I almost want to gem expertise. Almost.

    format on
    You don't know if I am joking or not.
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    format wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Yeah, thanks to the lame ass cap on shield slam damage, HotR is our hardest hitting attack, especially with 2pc T10.

    I have been running 2pc T10 and 2pc Triumph T9, with glyphed HotR, and Seal of Command for the longest time now. I love it so much. I don't understand why blizzard would let this happen.

    I thought the best part about this was the posts from GC stating that the reason paladins were too good at AoE threat was HotR.

    Then the Pally T10 bonuses were released.

    Nobody on
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Nobody wrote: »
    format wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Yeah, thanks to the lame ass cap on shield slam damage, HotR is our hardest hitting attack, especially with 2pc T10.

    I have been running 2pc T10 and 2pc Triumph T9, with glyphed HotR, and Seal of Command for the longest time now. I love it so much. I don't understand why blizzard would let this happen.

    I thought the best part about this was the posts from GC stating that the reason paladins were too good at AoE threat was HotR.

    Then the Pally T10 bonuses were released.

    my offtank in ICC10 just goes afk during trash.

    format on
    You don't know if I am joking or not.
  • SamphisSamphis Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I think I'm going to go 2/2, then. Awesome.

    Samphis on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Nobody wrote: »
    the posts from GC stating that the reason paladins were too good at AoE threat was HotR.
    Did he?

    forty on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I can't remember exactly what he said, but he did mention HotR. It's not just that though, it's the synergy between HotR and Seal of Command that makes Paladin AoE threat so insane. I don't honestly see why it's even worth mentioning though. All 4 tanks can AoE tank fine now. Just because Paladins are easier to do it on doesn't really mean anything.

    I could see them changing HotR to more of a single target attack, or nerfing the secondary target damage in Cata, but I don't much care either way. All I care about is that they deliver on the promise of giving us a different single and multi target tanking rotation, and I'm holding out hope that we'll get something fun like Sword and Board for tanking.

    In fact, what I really want is for Crusader Strike(since it's going baseline) to be changed to work like devastate, but instead of stacking sunders it stacks an increased holy damage taken debuff. Then give it a chance to proc a free shield slam, HotR, something. It's pretty much just ripping off devastate and sword and board, but I don't care. Homogenization up in this bitch.

    Joshmvii on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    forty wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    the posts from GC stating that the reason paladins were too good at AoE threat was HotR.
    Did he?

    Here you go

    GC, replying to somebody talking about nerfing Pally AoE Threat:
    I don't think it's Consecrate, actually. It was definitely Consecrate in Burning Crusade. I think it's HoR and possibly SoC

    Nobody on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Interesting since that's not really correct. Hopefully they'll take the time in Cataclysm to do a better job balancing things out.

    But then every time it comes up they also insist on reassuring us that your AoE tanking ability won't be that important in Cataclysm since there won't be so much AoE. We'll have to see about that.

    forty on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I don't think any Paladins really care if they nerf our AoE tanking somewhat. I would be fine with having to work as hard at AoE tanking on my Paladin as I do my Warrior. It makes no difference to me. Giving Prot Paladins another instant AoE attack(Blinding Shield) is not really a step in that direction seemingly, but we'll see.

    Just out of curiosity, what do you mean it's not correct? GC is correct that the thing that makes Prot Paladin AoE threat so insane is HotR+Seal of Command.

    Joshmvii on
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    I don't think any Paladins really care if they nerf our AoE tanking somewhat. I would be fine with having to work as hard at AoE tanking on my Paladin as I do my Warrior. It makes no difference to me. Giving Prot Paladins another instant AoE attack(Blinding Shield) is not really a step in that direction seemingly, but we'll see.


    I care. This is the exact reason why I created my paladin and shelved my warrior. I like the current playstyle of a prot paladin. I have recently come back to tanking on my warrior and I like that too, but I really like the differences.

    Blinding shield is a shockwave and hopefully that is the extent of homogenization.

    format on
    You don't know if I am joking or not.
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    format wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    I don't think any Paladins really care if they nerf our AoE tanking somewhat. I would be fine with having to work as hard at AoE tanking on my Paladin as I do my Warrior. It makes no difference to me. Giving Prot Paladins another instant AoE attack(Blinding Shield) is not really a step in that direction seemingly, but we'll see.


    I care. This is the exact reason why I created my paladin and shelved my warrior. I like the current playstyle of a prot paladin. I have recently come back to tanking on my warrior and I like that too, but I really like the differences.

    Blinding shield is a shockwave and hopefully that is the extent of homogenization.

    That surprises me a lot. I've never heard somebody say they like how you just run the same boring rotation while single and multi mob tanking. I too have a Paladin and a Warrior, and the only thing I like more about the Paladin is the flavor of the class. The Warrior class is very uninteresting to me, but the tanking style is worlds ahead in terms of being engaging.

    The Paladin is my original main, and will always stay as my main as long as they don't just do something I absolutely hate, but I don't like the boring rotation. It's not just me wishing the playstyle will change though, they've already said so. They want Paladins to have a separate priority/rotation for single and multi mob tanking. I welcome the day when consecration isn't part of single tanking. Using it in a single target rotation is like if a DK put down D&D as part of tanking one mob. It just doesn't make sense as a single target ability.

    Joshmvii on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, what do you mean it's not correct? GC is correct that the thing that makes Prot Paladin AoE threat so insane is HotR+Seal of Command.
    That's not what he said, though:
    I think it's HoR and possibly SoC
    Possibly SoC? Well HotR with SoRighteous or SoDoT sure doesn't do crazy AoE. It most definitely takes the holy cleavestorm from the combination of the two before it get ridiculous.

    And even then, it's more the fact that the paladin has damage coming from so many different multi-target sources than any one thing anyway. Consecration, HotR+SoC, Holy Shield blocks, Retribution Aura. And I don't know all the tank threat math since it's hidden behind a wall of obfuscation, but I have to suspect that paladin threat being based on a big-ass holy damage multiplier is also a factor in AoE.

    "I think it's HoR" is an oversimplification.

    forty on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, you are right about that. It really is only the combination of HotR and SoC that gets insane really fast. And there is no doubt that the fact that 100% of our damage besides auto attacks gets to say fuck the bosses armor and also get multiplied 80% from righteous fury contributes to the equation, but that's just how our spec is designed.

    They already said holy shield is not going to be 100% uptime like it is now in Cata, so that's one probable slight nerf to AoE capacity. Then I'd expect to see HotR changed to work more like heart strike with less damage happening on the subsequent hits. If they don't change SoC's cleave component this may not have a big effect though. Plus the new shockwave/blinding shield will be another AoE tool.

    Really the only proper solution is to make pulls hard to AoE so people will use CC, not to mega nerf Paladins AoE. Just speculation, but I think DK tanks may end up having the best or 2nd best AoE tanking with D&D and that new mechanic of plague strike letting you blood boil every other GCD.

    Joshmvii on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    They already said holy shield is not going to be 100% uptime like it is now in Cata

    :?

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    What else would you expect? Paladins just getting a permanent 30% physical damage reduction?

    forty on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, with shield block changing to actual proper mitigation instead of just 'lol trash can't hurt me,' they have to change holy shield to work probably more like warrior's shield block. You pop it as a mini shield wall. I can't think of another good change they could make to holy shield without it being too strong or too lame.

    Joshmvii on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Ah, I didn't know about the shield block change.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    forty wrote: »
    That's not what he said, though:
    I think it's HoR and possibly SoC

    ...

    "I think it's HoR" is an oversimplification.

    There was another post about HotR +SoC I don't want to look it up. But he said it was definitely the combination of the two that was a problem and they didn't know what the solution would be. And making SoC just not work wasn't the answer.


    Also: why do people complain about this anyway? I mean why is one tank being better at AoE than another an issue? Every tank can do it fine as it stands now anyway. In Vanilla and TBC everyone said warrior aoe threat was bad but I was fine aoe tanking everything put in front of me.

    format on
    You don't know if I am joking or not.
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    That surprises me a lot. I've never heard somebody say they like how you just run the same boring rotation while single and multi mob tanking. I too have a Paladin and a Warrior, and the only thing I like more about the Paladin is the flavor of the class. The Warrior class is very uninteresting to me, but the tanking style is worlds ahead in terms of being engaging.

    The Paladin is my original main, and will always stay as my main as long as they don't just do something I absolutely hate, but I don't like the boring rotation. It's not just me wishing the playstyle will change though, they've already said so. They want Paladins to have a separate priority/rotation for single and multi mob tanking. I welcome the day when consecration isn't part of single tanking. Using it in a single target rotation is like if a DK put down D&D as part of tanking one mob. It just doesn't make sense as a single target ability.

    I like the simpleness of the rotation. I like it when things just fit together like that. I can see how you think it is boring, but where you see a boring rotation I see a complex system fitting together perfectly. Someone said to me once; "macros are for bads" and I proceeded to rip threat off him on everything he tried to tank. I don't like having to react to random procs of all kinds to maximize my threat all while managing my rage wondering if I should heroic strike or not.

    I agree with you in regards to consecration and as flavor goes it doesn't fit well, i bet making crusader strike baseline is part of Blizzards plan to differentiate aoe and single target.

    format on
    You don't know if I am joking or not.
  • JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I got bored playing today, and I am in Nagrand. So I decided to have a crack at that five man elite level 68 thing walking around the plains solo...... Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiistaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake.

    Johannen on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Durn the Hungerer? I assume you're not 80 then.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    korodullin wrote: »
    Durn the Hungerer? I assume you're not 80 then.
    *sigh* funnily no..... I'm level 68 :P When i'm bored I have a tendency to just try and fight the nearest elite.

    Johannen on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    format wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    That surprises me a lot. I've never heard somebody say they like how you just run the same boring rotation while single and multi mob tanking. I too have a Paladin and a Warrior, and the only thing I like more about the Paladin is the flavor of the class. The Warrior class is very uninteresting to me, but the tanking style is worlds ahead in terms of being engaging.

    The Paladin is my original main, and will always stay as my main as long as they don't just do something I absolutely hate, but I don't like the boring rotation. It's not just me wishing the playstyle will change though, they've already said so. They want Paladins to have a separate priority/rotation for single and multi mob tanking. I welcome the day when consecration isn't part of single tanking. Using it in a single target rotation is like if a DK put down D&D as part of tanking one mob. It just doesn't make sense as a single target ability.

    I like the simpleness of the rotation. I like it when things just fit together like that. I can see how you think it is boring, but where you see a boring rotation I see a complex system fitting together perfectly. Someone said to me once; "macros are for bads" and I proceeded to rip threat off him on everything he tried to tank. I don't like having to react to random procs of all kinds to maximize my threat all while managing my rage wondering if I should heroic strike or not.

    I agree with you in regards to consecration and as flavor goes it doesn't fit well, i bet making crusader strike baseline is part of Blizzards plan to differentiate aoe and single target.

    I totally respect all your points there. I like a more reactive tanking style, but I love the paladin class so much I will keep it my main pretty much no matter what. I am definitely looking forward to getting to use crusader strike on single targets, and maybe another new single target attack.

    Joshmvii on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    format wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    That's not what he said, though:
    I think it's HoR and possibly SoC

    ...

    "I think it's HoR" is an oversimplification.

    There was another post about HotR +SoC I don't want to look it up. But he said it was definitely the combination of the two that was a problem and they didn't know what the solution would be. And making SoC just not work wasn't the answer.


    Also: why do people complain about this anyway? I mean why is one tank being better at AoE than another an issue? Every tank can do it fine as it stands now anyway. In Vanilla and TBC everyone said warrior aoe threat was bad but I was fine aoe tanking everything put in front of me.

    You're right that all 4 tank classes can AoE tank fine as it is now, and it doesn't really matter if one is better than the others at it, but you didn't Warrior AoE tank everything in vanilla/TBC. Maybe if your DPS didn't AoE and let you tab target everything and took 3 times as long to kill a trash pack.

    Shattered Halls is the biggest example from TBC. A Warrior just plain was not AoE tanking that place like a Paladin could. Neither was a Druid at that point, because you both had target caps on your only real AoE tanking tool.

    I think everybody is glad that all 4 tanks can AoE tank fine now, but there are still plenty of Warriors that bitch and moan because they feel they have it harder than the other 3 classes, imagined or not. I know on my Warrior AoE tanking, while not as mindless as on my Paladin, is still quite easy, even through full on AoE.

    Joshmvii on
  • formatformat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    You're right that all 4 tank classes can AoE tank fine as it is now, and it doesn't really matter if one is better than the others at it, but you didn't Warrior AoE tank everything in vanilla/TBC. Maybe if your DPS didn't AoE and let you tab target everything and took 3 times as long to kill a trash pack.

    Shattered Halls is the biggest example from TBC. A Warrior just plain was not AoE tanking that place like a Paladin could. Neither was a Druid at that point, because you both had target caps on your only real AoE tanking tool.

    I think everybody is glad that all 4 tanks can AoE tank fine now, but there are still plenty of Warriors that bitch and moan because they feel they have it harder than the other 3 classes, imagined or not. I know on my Warrior AoE tanking, while not as mindless as on my Paladin, is still quite easy, even through full on AoE.

    AoE tanking really didn't exist in vanilla like it does now. CC was used at every opportunity. There was a pack of maybe 4 mobs at a time and two could be cced, we often used shackle for undead with sheep and sap.

    I tanked shattered halls many times. I did only get to the end before that timer ran out one time before I stopped trying for it though.

    I tab target sundered while switching to battle stance for thunderclap.

    OK fine a single paladin replaced two warriors and a druid on hyjal trash but those guys didn't lose their raid spot since they were the tanks for the boss.

    format on
    You don't know if I am joking or not.
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I've been playing with prot specs since getting into heroic dailies on the new LFD system is retardedly easy as a protadin.

    Anyways, the new SoC on a prot build = hilarity. Every single one of my abilities becomes an AoE ability.

    Wavechaser on
  • JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I really need people to go dungeoning with in Auchindoun and such, being Ret specced doesn't help you get into raid groups though.

    Johannen on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    format wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    That's not what he said, though:
    I think it's HoR and possibly SoC

    ...

    "I think it's HoR" is an oversimplification.

    There was another post about HotR +SoC I don't want to look it up. But he said it was definitely the combination of the two that was a problem and they didn't know what the solution would be. And making SoC just not work wasn't the answer.


    Also: why do people complain about this anyway? I mean why is one tank being better at AoE than another an issue? Every tank can do it fine as it stands now anyway. In Vanilla and TBC everyone said warrior aoe threat was bad but I was fine aoe tanking everything put in front of me.

    I found it for you
    My point was to share how we think AE tanking should feel (relatively easy to maintain threat but still asking the tank to actually stay awake and push buttons) and where the risks should be (the tank dies / the AE spamming becomes inefficient). We like the warrior model. They push more than one button. More generation is active than passive. They do still have to consider threat as a mechanic. That's more of what we're going for (again, the way it felt in earlier raid tiers. The threat has slipped behind as damage fell behind in later tiers). Druids by contrast can just spam Swipe, which gets boring. Paladins get too much benefit out of HoR + SoC (at the very least) such that they risk pulling off of other tanks but have relatively little chance of ever losing aggro to dps. The chance to lose threat can be relatively low, but it can't be absolutely trivial or we might as well let you spam Commanding Shout.

    Oh, and the actual quote from the same thread where he talks about nerfing the combination:
    I'm not sure the answer is just to prevent Prot from using Seal of Command. We like sub-speccing to some extent. I think part of the problem is the way HoR and SoC interact, but that doesn't mean the solution has to be one of them dies in a fire.

    Nobody on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Well it does sound like they're leaving open the possibility of SoC not cleaving with HotR. I mean that seems like the most obvious fix to threat problems assuming it can be done.

    forty on
  • mturalonmturalon Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    and whats the issue with just moving SoC further down the tree? or is there not one?

    mturalon on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    They could do that, but I don't think they necessarily want to take SoC cleave away from Prot Paladins. Just making SoC not cleave off HotR would lower AoE threat, but not by as much as they might think. SoC cleave proccing off every auto attack and ShoR is a huge part of it too.

    I'm sure making sure one of the tank classes isn't way better than the others at AoE threat isn't that high on their list of things to do anyway. The post GC was responding to was probably just some baby Warrior complaining that Paladins have it too easy.

    Joshmvii on
  • mturalonmturalon Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    eh.. If they're giving a "shock wave" to pallies, leaving Consecrate, and leaving HoTR alone, they should still be decent enough at AE threat to not really need SoC.

    I held AE threat just fine with HotR and SoV, SoC just made it stupid easy.

    mturalon on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    You're definitely right it isn't needed, it just makes it even easier. I just mean I don't think their solution will be to move SoCommand deeper. More likely it'll just be to make it not proc off HotR as was mentioned.

    I'm more interested in seeing what our new single target rotation/priority is going to look like. Holy shield will no longer be used as often, and presumably consecration won't ever be used on single targets, so ShoR, judgement, and HotR are the only sure things in the single target dept right now. They'll have to change how Crusader strike works if they want it to hit hard enough with a fast 1 hander to make it viable, and that still would probably leave holes in the single target rotation that would just end up with us using consecration again anyway. I love expansions. =)

    Joshmvii on
  • mturalonmturalon Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    the only thing I'm afraid of with that for a fix would be having it break with the intended attacks.


    Single target rotation thing is something i'm really looking forward to. That and hopefully a fix to IT spamming DK tanks that can strip aggro regardless of how many attacks have landed.

    mturalon on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Considering that they are making a baby Crusader Strike ability and adding it in, there's some question on whether that will be replacing one of our abilities in rotation or priority.

    I'm personally wondering if we're going to be going back to a priority system similiar to what we had in TBC.

    Nobody on
  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Nobody wrote: »
    Considering that they are making a baby Crusader Strike ability and adding it in, there's some question on whether that will be replacing one of our abilities in rotation or priority.

    I'm personally wondering if we're going to be going back to a priority system similiar to what we had in TBC.

    In TBC? It's been so long...ok we spammed Judgement of Righteousness, Consecration and kept Holy Shield up. Yeah I suppose you could say it was a priority system.

    lionheart_m on
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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    well, priority as in Holy Shield > everything else :P

    Nobody on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    They'll have to rework crusader strike, because the current version (75% weapon damage as physical damage) would never get hit by a Prot Paladin ever. Even if they changed the damage back to holy, 75% weapon damage from a 1.6 weapon is just too low to be worth the GCD. What I'm really hoping for is something like devastate that is weapon damage+X and puts a stacking debuff of some sort(+ Holy damage maybe) on the enemy.

    There's some trash in SM that have a version of crusader strike that does exactly that, and Ret's new 41 pt talent could be another strike that consumes the stacks or something like that to do big damage, so both specs would still want to use CS. Of course, then the amount of damage of CS would have to be tuned to not be too good or too bad for fast and slow weapons. Ah well, I just can't wait to find out what's going to happen.

    Joshmvii on
This discussion has been closed.