Spoiler because you know KoTOR comments should be.
Wasn't Kreia actually a Sith Lord at the end of the game? She comes out in all Black etc. We know that the game was cut short but we don't know if that would have changed who she actually was. I need to finish my Kotor 2 Game so i can see all this again.
Lightside and Darkside are sides of the same coin. Darkside embraces emotion to the point where users become raving lunatics. Lightside denies emotion to the point where users become withdrawn lunatics. Equal and opposite, they're all mad monks trying to rule the galaxy as they deem best. 'Grey' are just bipolar lunatics doing the same thing. They're all nuts!
I find it hilarious that the Jedi see the force as unbalanced when it was thousands of jedi against 2 sith.
Lightside and Darkside are sides of the same coin. Darkside embraces emotion to the point where users become raving lunatics. Lightside denies emotion to the point where users become withdrawn lunatics. Equal and opposite, they're all mad monks trying to rule the galaxy as they deem best. 'Grey' are just bipolar lunatics doing the same thing. They're all nuts!
I find it hilarious that the Jedi see the force as unbalanced when it was thousands of jedi against 2 sith.
I think Lucas has said that the Force isn't light vs. dark and that they are not supposed to be equal and opposite. He's said that the Darkside is corruption and that the Force isn't balanced until it is gone. Balance to the force doesn't mean some even fight between two factions. When he talks about Vader bring balance he's said it's when Vader killed the emperor and died after his revelation.
Edit: On one of these forums, somone posted Lucas' speech and take on it all.
Well, yeah, but Lucas has be corrupted by the alien entity that took up residence in his neck and sucks out his brain soooooo.... anything he says is suspect.
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Spoiler because you know KoTOR comments should be.
Wasn't Kreia actually a Sith Lord at the end of the game? She comes out in all Black etc. We know that the game was cut short but we don't know if that would have changed who she actually was. I need to finish my Kotor 2 Game so i can see all this again.
Kreia wasn't really Sith or Jedi. She just wanted the Force to die, or people to be free of its machinations by any means necessary. She subscribed to the Echani (being one herself) philosophy of conflict = personal growth and as such set herself up as the final obstacle in the Exiles training. She was a Sith Lord by virtue of him needing something to fight against, mentally and physically, and overcome. Nothing more.
She did this because the Exile is the only person known to have manually, willingly severed connections to the Force and as such presents a singular hope for the Galaxy under her view of the Force.
Edit: As they say, word of god is that the Dark Side is nothing more than a cancer. The Jedi Teachings Are Correct and people just suck too much to follow them. This means Star Wars will always be a stunted black and white fairy tale setting, which I don't like, but that IS the way the setting works. Dark Side has no redeeming qualities, no applications, it is always wrong.
Well, yeah, but Lucas has be corrupted by the alien entity that took up residence in his neck and sucks out his brain soooooo.... anything he says is suspect.
^^
Like I was saying, the Jedi are a daffy bunch. They're always like "Abloo abloo only sith deal in absolutes...amirite?"
Well, yeah, but Lucas has be corrupted by the alien entity that took up residence in his neck and sucks out his brain soooooo.... anything he says is suspect.
^^
Like I was saying, the Jedi are a daffy bunch. They're always like "Abloo abloo only sith deal in absolutes...amirite?"
Only Sith deal in absolutes!
That's an absolute.
*Monty Python Black Knight voice* .... No it isn't. Have at you!
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Having the "One Force, no darkside and lightside!" thing just leads to tons of Mary Sueisms of people being uberjedisitholocks who hold supreme mastery of all spectrums of the Force-conduits.
Also -- I don't think that "The Lightside Of the Force" has ever been refrenced as such in the context of the world. It's always been The Force and The Darkside of the Force.
Which is the base of the ideals that by default The Force is the life energy that flows through the galaxy. The Darkside is when you take that flow and violently divert it for your own whim.
Using applied telekinesis to pull a 1 lb. object to your hand compared to throwing lightning from your fingertips.
Spoiler because you know KoTOR comments should be.
Wasn't Kreia actually a Sith Lord at the end of the game? She comes out in all Black etc. We know that the game was cut short but we don't know if that would have changed who she actually was. I need to finish my Kotor 2 Game so i can see all this again.
Kreia wasn't really Sith or Jedi. She just wanted the Force to die, or people to be free of its machinations by any means necessary. She subscribed to the Echani (being one herself) philosophy of conflict = personal growth and as such set herself up as the final obstacle in the Exiles training. She was a Sith Lord by virtue of him needing something to fight against, mentally and physically, and overcome. Nothing more.
She did this because the Exile is the only person known to have manually, willingly severed connections to the Force and as such presents a singular hope for the Galaxy under her view of the Force.
She was Darth Traya, though. While she might have wanted the Force to die when the Exile meets her, at one time, at least, she was a Dark Lord of the Sith.
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Burden of ProofYou three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on.Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Lucas literally referred to the Dark Side of the Force as a cancer.
And there's this EU quote from Luke: "There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
And given Luke has fallen to the Dark Side before, I'd say he knows that very well.
Or it could be inconsistent writing due to different authors being behind the respective quotes. And neither author really putting a whole lot of thought into it.
So... In Knights of the Republic, I've been trying to role play the best paragon of the Jedi Order as I can.
Is it bad that I slaughtered all the Sith I could find on Korriban?
As soon as I had what I needed, I just killed them all.
I didn't think I'd be able to at first, but a Jedi Gaurdian with full Stims and Jedi Buffs can handle quite a few Sith with no problems. My astrometric droid and Carth died over and over again, though.
And given Luke has fallen to the Dark Side before, I'd say he knows that very well.
Or it could be inconsistent writing due to different authors being behind the respective quotes. And neither author really putting a whole lot of thought into it.
Oh, sure, pull out the reasonable and non-fanboy response. Keep things logical and well thought out. That'll really help.
Joking aside, you're pretty much right on that. There are a massive number of inconsistencies throughout the entire EU. In one book, Leia will be a full Jedi Knight with a lightsaber and quite capable of taking care of herself. In the next book, she'll have problems using the Force to flick a light switch. Luke will go from confident and powerful to unsure and confused between different authors. Consistent characterization is one of the biggest weaknesses of the EU.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
So... In Knights of the Republic, I've been trying to role play the best paragon of the Jedi Order as I can.
Is it bad that I slaughtered all the Sith I could find on Korriban?
As soon as I had what I needed, I just killed them all.
I didn't think I'd be able to at first, but a Jedi Gaurdian with full Stims and Jedi Buffs can handle quite a few Sith with no problems. My astrometric droid and Carth died over and over again, though.
You gave into your hatred of the Sith, just like they wanted you to.
So... In Knights of the Republic, I've been trying to role play the best paragon of the Jedi Order as I can.
Is it bad that I slaughtered all the Sith I could find on Korriban?
As soon as I had what I needed, I just killed them all.
I didn't think I'd be able to at first, but a Jedi Gaurdian with full Stims and Jedi Buffs can handle quite a few Sith with no problems. My astrometric droid and Carth died over and over again, though.
The way I remember it, they don't really give you a choice. You get to say, "HAHA, I'm no scum" and the two sith teachers attack you. Really what choice did you have?
It's pretty suspension of disbelief breaking too. We're supposed to believe that we needed to be ~sneaky~ to get into the Academy as you can't very well just do mass murder on a Sith occupied planet, you'd never get out alive!
So... In Knights of the Republic, I've been trying to role play the best paragon of the Jedi Order as I can.
Is it bad that I slaughtered all the Sith I could find on Korriban?
As soon as I had what I needed, I just killed them all.
I didn't think I'd be able to at first, but a Jedi Gaurdian with full Stims and Jedi Buffs can handle quite a few Sith with no problems. My astrometric droid and Carth died over and over again, though.
The way I remember it, they don't really give you a choice. You get to say, "HAHA, I'm no scum" and the two sith teachers attack you. Really what choice did you have?
Well, see, there the only reasonable choice was probably to kill both of them.
I was more talking about after that, when you go back to the Temple, and those guys are like "Where's the teachers?" and I was like "I struck them down, for I am a Jedi."
They attack me, I dispatch them.
Now see... The part I can't really defend is when I went in the Temple, I didn't just fight my way to the exit. Oh, no.
I went to every wing, every room, and killed every Sith I could find, no matter how out of the way it was. If any of them had asked for mercy, I would have spared them, but they didn't.
I suppose it could have been just a really, REALLY big accident. I mean, its not like he meant to slice that one guy in half, and chop that other guy's head off. Those sort of things just kind of happen sometimes, you know?
I suppose it could have been just a really, REALLY big accident. I mean, its not like he meant to slice that one guy in half, and chop that other guy's head off. Those sort of things just kind of happen sometimes, you know?
"I'm going to walk through Korriban swinging my lightsaber and if you get cleaved in two its your own fault."
I suppose it could have been just a really, REALLY big accident. I mean, its not like he meant to slice that one guy in half, and chop that other guy's head off. Those sort of things just kind of happen sometimes, you know?
She fell down the stairs.
...Stairs made of lightsabers.
(On a more serious note: This is not the only alternative to killing someone without hating them.)
Interestingly, the Mystics have been around as long at the Old Republic has--though the culture and people who would become the Voss came much later. In the first days we wanted to bring something completely new to our class offerings and a group who looked at the Force in a fundamentally different way was intriguing. The Mystics would be grey and dangerous to the eyes of the Jedi, able to see through the lies of the Sith and beholden and interested in neither. They would enable us to explore themes of religion (every culture sees gods but interprets them differently), culture (believing themselves to be the chosen people) and politics (due to the infallibility of their visions, they are happily totalitarian). We had numerous different ideas for how they would look, be thought of by the greater galaxy and behave. For a while we had a running joke of Mystic converts standing in spaceports asking weary travelers, “Have you been to Voss?”
The Jedi Consular article lends a bit of insight to where they seem to be taking it as well...
I feel like the Sith do have some good ideas. I mean, they are right in that competition leads to improvement. That's, like, the basis of everything from evolution to economics here on earth.
They just fall off the other side of the horse by suddenly jumping to cruelty and extermination and prejudice and all manner of horrible things.
The Sith and Jedi are two sides of the same coin, both based on the Force and half truth. Being in the middle between them is preferable to being in one of them.
I look at it more like the ring in lord of the rings
of course this has changed since the OT... I'd say it's like the ring but you can use it to some extent without being tainted.
The moment you touch The Darkside of the Force you are tainted.
It seems like every time discussions come up about the nature of the Force the people begin touting that they think people should be able to use "both sides" of the Force. That somehow, against all the characters that have tried (and failed) they have the knowledge and know how to "embrace all emotions" and be some type of uber "grey" Jedi.
The Darkside is cancer and poison. It corrupts you -- wholly and fully, whether your realize it or not.
The best ally the Darkside has is the concept of the Unifying Force.
But when the time comes and you realize that your outlook on the nature of the Force has led you down the dark path. I will be there with arm extended to help you up from the darkness.
I feel like the Sith do have some good ideas. I mean, they are right in that competition leads to improvement. That's, like, the basis of everything from evolution to economics here on earth.
They just fall off the other side of the horse by suddenly jumping to cruelty and extermination and prejudice and all manner of horrible things.
The Sith and Jedi are two sides of the same coin, both based on the Force and half truth. Being in the middle between them is preferable to being in one of them.
I look at it more like the ring in lord of the rings
of course this has changed since the OT... I'd say it's like the ring but you can use it to some extent without being tainted.
The moment you touch The Darkside of the Force you are tainted.
It seems like every time discussions come up about the nature of the Force the people begin touting that they think people should be able to use "both sides" of the Force. That somehow, against all the characters that have tried (and failed) they have the knowledge and know how to "embrace all emotions" and be some type of uber "grey" Jedi.
The Darkside is cancer and poison. It corrupts you -- wholly and fully, whether your realize it or not.
The best ally the Darkside has is the concept of the Unifying Force.
But when the time comes and you realize that your outlook on the nature of the Force has led you down the dark path. I will be there with arm extended to help you up from the darkness.
Um....Kyle Katarn?
Kyle Katarn doesn't matter, we're talking about Word of God here. George Lucas' position is irrefutable, no matter how much we might not like it.
Fortunately Bioware appears to be ignoring it, but canonically...yeah.
I feel like the Sith do have some good ideas. I mean, they are right in that competition leads to improvement. That's, like, the basis of everything from evolution to economics here on earth.
They just fall off the other side of the horse by suddenly jumping to cruelty and extermination and prejudice and all manner of horrible things.
The Sith and Jedi are two sides of the same coin, both based on the Force and half truth. Being in the middle between them is preferable to being in one of them.
I look at it more like the ring in lord of the rings
of course this has changed since the OT... I'd say it's like the ring but you can use it to some extent without being tainted.
The moment you touch The Darkside of the Force you are tainted.
It seems like every time discussions come up about the nature of the Force the people begin touting that they think people should be able to use "both sides" of the Force. That somehow, against all the characters that have tried (and failed) they have the knowledge and know how to "embrace all emotions" and be some type of uber "grey" Jedi.
The Darkside is cancer and poison. It corrupts you -- wholly and fully, whether your realize it or not.
The best ally the Darkside has is the concept of the Unifying Force.
But when the time comes and you realize that your outlook on the nature of the Force has led you down the dark path. I will be there with arm extended to help you up from the darkness.
Um....Kyle Katarn?
And Kyle Katarn is usually the first example to pop into the discussion. Which leads to fights about canon, EU authenticity and the lengths developers will go to make a fun game.
However -- when playing through the Jedi Knight games I made it a point to not use any of the Dark Side powers.
Let's face it folks. Going full-dark is a lot more fun than being a goody good. Zapping people to death vs meaningful discussion and debate.
I think I'll go with lightning fingers.
Keyword: Meaningful.
While I've grown to accept BW's idea of "You must be <this> good/evil to convince Person A to help you", I really wish there they could find another way to approach that mechanic that would make the light side feel more... well, fun.
Our choices are essentially...
Badass Dark side: "It's just been revoked... <BAM>"
or
Whiny Light Side: "Pretty, pretty please x5"
Also, I know that you can pick through response choices during conversations with NPCs, but in TOR (and I apologize for not knowing) is there also the "convince" mechanic I mentioned above? I haven't seen or read about this being in.
I don't think anyone within the Star Wars Universe is aware of what Lucas has decided on the matter, and therefore, just as we do, thier opinions of Lightside vs. Darkside has to come from thier own observations and the stories they have heard. A "Grey" Jedi doesn't know that his/her path of walking both sides will, according to Lucas, eventually doom him/her to the corrupt nature of the dark side, because (s)he is a sentient being who is unaware of his/her nature as a fictional character... And if that never does happen, by the Word of Lucas, (s)he just happened to have the good fortune of dying before (s)he could fall to the Dark Side.
However, I'm also of the opinion that Mr. Lucas shouldn't have opened his mouth and said anything one way or the other, even if he had the idea in his head ever since A New Hope. Some things are better off left ambiguous...
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I find it hilarious that the Jedi see the force as unbalanced when it was thousands of jedi against 2 sith.
I think Lucas has said that the Force isn't light vs. dark and that they are not supposed to be equal and opposite. He's said that the Darkside is corruption and that the Force isn't balanced until it is gone. Balance to the force doesn't mean some even fight between two factions. When he talks about Vader bring balance he's said it's when Vader killed the emperor and died after his revelation.
Edit: On one of these forums, somone posted Lucas' speech and take on it all.
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Shiny Code: 3837
She did this because the Exile is the only person known to have manually, willingly severed connections to the Force and as such presents a singular hope for the Galaxy under her view of the Force.
Edit: As they say, word of god is that the Dark Side is nothing more than a cancer. The Jedi Teachings Are Correct and people just suck too much to follow them. This means Star Wars will always be a stunted black and white fairy tale setting, which I don't like, but that IS the way the setting works. Dark Side has no redeeming qualities, no applications, it is always wrong.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
^^
Like I was saying, the Jedi are a daffy bunch. They're always like "Abloo abloo only sith deal in absolutes...amirite?"
Only Sith deal in absolutes!
That's an absolute.
*Monty Python Black Knight voice* .... No it isn't. Have at you!
Also -- I don't think that "The Lightside Of the Force" has ever been refrenced as such in the context of the world. It's always been The Force and The Darkside of the Force.
Which is the base of the ideals that by default The Force is the life energy that flows through the galaxy. The Darkside is when you take that flow and violently divert it for your own whim.
Using applied telekinesis to pull a 1 lb. object to your hand compared to throwing lightning from your fingertips.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
And there's this EU quote from Luke: "There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
EU writers are not better than Lucas himself. They're all stupid.
Generally speaking yes, this is true.
The EU would likely be less terrible if most of its authors were not recruited from fanfiction.net
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And given Luke has fallen to the Dark Side before, I'd say he knows that very well.
I've only ever read the Grand Admiral Thrawn trilogy, and I really enjoyed it. =(
Or it could be inconsistent writing due to different authors being behind the respective quotes. And neither author really putting a whole lot of thought into it.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Is it bad that I slaughtered all the Sith I could find on Korriban?
As soon as I had what I needed, I just killed them all.
I didn't think I'd be able to at first, but a Jedi Gaurdian with full Stims and Jedi Buffs can handle quite a few Sith with no problems. My astrometric droid and Carth died over and over again, though.
Oh, sure, pull out the reasonable and non-fanboy response. Keep things logical and well thought out. That'll really help.
Joking aside, you're pretty much right on that. There are a massive number of inconsistencies throughout the entire EU. In one book, Leia will be a full Jedi Knight with a lightsaber and quite capable of taking care of herself. In the next book, she'll have problems using the Force to flick a light switch. Luke will go from confident and powerful to unsure and confused between different authors. Consistent characterization is one of the biggest weaknesses of the EU.
You gave into your hatred of the Sith, just like they wanted you to.
Edit: I really hope TOR will let me be a Jedi Knight who is a tremendously ruthless asshole.
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The way I remember it, they don't really give you a choice. You get to say, "HAHA, I'm no scum" and the two sith teachers attack you. Really what choice did you have?
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Shiny Code: 3837
Then the game forces you to do it anyway.
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Well, see, there the only reasonable choice was probably to kill both of them.
I was more talking about after that, when you go back to the Temple, and those guys are like "Where's the teachers?" and I was like "I struck them down, for I am a Jedi."
They attack me, I dispatch them.
Now see... The part I can't really defend is when I went in the Temple, I didn't just fight my way to the exit. Oh, no.
I went to every wing, every room, and killed every Sith I could find, no matter how out of the way it was. If any of them had asked for mercy, I would have spared them, but they didn't.
So I was ruthless.
I suppose it could have been just a really, REALLY big accident. I mean, its not like he meant to slice that one guy in half, and chop that other guy's head off. Those sort of things just kind of happen sometimes, you know?
"I'm going to walk through Korriban swinging my lightsaber and if you get cleaved in two its your own fault."
She fell down the stairs.
...Stairs made of lightsabers.
(On a more serious note: This is not the only alternative to killing someone without hating them.)
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Now, I might have been giving into my anger when I went out of my way to kill every last Sith in the Academy, but still. It was righteous anger.
"We're solving the Sith Problem. Solvin' the Sith Problem.
...And now the problem is solved."
ALTERNATE JOKE
More like given into exp.
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From the Creating Worlds article, emphisis mine:
The Jedi Consular article lends a bit of insight to where they seem to be taking it as well...
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Um....Kyle Katarn?
Kyle Katarn doesn't matter, we're talking about Word of God here. George Lucas' position is irrefutable, no matter how much we might not like it.
Fortunately Bioware appears to be ignoring it, but canonically...yeah.
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And Kyle Katarn is usually the first example to pop into the discussion. Which leads to fights about canon, EU authenticity and the lengths developers will go to make a fun game.
However -- when playing through the Jedi Knight games I made it a point to not use any of the Dark Side powers.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
I think I'll go with lightning fingers.
Keyword: Meaningful.
While I've grown to accept BW's idea of "You must be <this> good/evil to convince Person A to help you", I really wish there they could find another way to approach that mechanic that would make the light side feel more... well, fun.
Our choices are essentially...
Badass Dark side: "It's just been revoked... <BAM>"
or
Whiny Light Side: "Pretty, pretty please x5"
Also, I know that you can pick through response choices during conversations with NPCs, but in TOR (and I apologize for not knowing) is there also the "convince" mechanic I mentioned above? I haven't seen or read about this being in.
I don't think anyone within the Star Wars Universe is aware of what Lucas has decided on the matter, and therefore, just as we do, thier opinions of Lightside vs. Darkside has to come from thier own observations and the stories they have heard. A "Grey" Jedi doesn't know that his/her path of walking both sides will, according to Lucas, eventually doom him/her to the corrupt nature of the dark side, because (s)he is a sentient being who is unaware of his/her nature as a fictional character... And if that never does happen, by the Word of Lucas, (s)he just happened to have the good fortune of dying before (s)he could fall to the Dark Side.
However, I'm also of the opinion that Mr. Lucas shouldn't have opened his mouth and said anything one way or the other, even if he had the idea in his head ever since A New Hope. Some things are better off left ambiguous...