The military should refuse orders to shoot at civilians, and that's as 'political' as it should get.
So, then, who enforces the constitution when the government begins to ignore it?
I'm gonna assume there's some sort of court that resolves these constitutional conflicts.
It's not hard for a population to bring down a government that starts rigging the system, as long as the military and police don't get involved; I don't really see the value in their involvement, and I'm not sure what qualifies them to determine that a government is going too far.
If a government is demonstrably going against the constitution, does the military not have a duty to step in to protect the populace? Assuming that the government is not obeying the courts.
That said, if the population doesn't feel safe in opposing their government, I'd be worried about an armed force stepping in to take control.
The military should refuse orders to shoot at civilians, and that's as 'political' as it should get.
So, then, who enforces the constitution when the government begins to ignore it?
I'm gonna assume there's some sort of court that resolves these constitutional conflicts.
It's not hard for a population to bring down a government that starts rigging the system, as long as the military and police don't get involved; I don't really see the value in their involvement, and I'm not sure what qualifies them to determine that a government is going too far.
Really it depends on who or what they are swearing to defend when they take their oath of service.
Really it depends on who or what they are swearing to defend when they take their oath of service.
How? From what I have read, Dutch courts are not allowed to nullify laws on constitutional grounds.
I'm not really up to date on this sort of things, but for as far as I am aware, this is what the First Chamber is for (similar to the house of lords in the UK).
Really it depends on who or what they are swearing to defend when they take their oath of service.
How? From what I have read, Dutch courts are not allowed to nullify laws on constitutional grounds.
I'm not really up to date on this sort of things, but for as far as I am aware, this is what the First Chamber is for (similar to the house of lords in the UK).
Can the First Chamber actually nullify legislation after it has taken effect, or only reject it before it becomes law?
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Really it depends on who or what they are swearing to defend when they take their oath of service.
How? From what I have read, Dutch courts are not allowed to nullify laws on constitutional grounds.
I'm not really up to date on this sort of things, but for as far as I am aware, this is what the First Chamber is for (similar to the house of lords in the UK).
Can the First Chamber actually nullify legislation after it has taken effect, or only reject it before it becomes law?
They must vote on any legislation made up in the Second Chamber.
Ege, do you have any idea what the Turkish military oaths entail?
I don't know. I'll look into it.
Found it.
Barista ve savasta, karada, denizde ve havada, her zaman ve her yerde milletime ve cumhuriyetime dogruluk ve muhabbetle hizmet ve kanunlara ve nizamlara ve amirlere itaat edecegime ve askerligin namusunu, Türk sancaginin sanini canimdan aziz bilip icabinda vatan, cumhuriyet ve vazife ugrunda seve seve hayatimi feda edecegime namusum üzerine and içerim.
Rough translation:
I swear by my honor that, in peace and at war, on land, in sea, and in air, always and everywhere, I will serve my nation and my republic with truth and honesty, that I will obey the Law and my superiors, and that I will not hesitate to willingly and lovingly sacrifice my life for the honor of soldiership and the greatness of the Turkish flag.
Really it depends on who or what they are swearing to defend when they take their oath of service.
How? From what I have read, Dutch courts are not allowed to nullify laws on constitutional grounds.
I'm not really up to date on this sort of things, but for as far as I am aware, this is what the First Chamber is for (similar to the house of lords in the UK).
Can the First Chamber actually nullify legislation after it has taken effect, or only reject it before it becomes law?
They must vote on any legislation made up in the Second Chamber.
What does this have to do with Turkey, though?
Sorry, it started way back as a question of what you do when the government begins passing unconstitutional laws, but I went off on a tangent when I found out that once the Dutch government has passed a law (including the first house), it cannot be ruled unconstitutional.
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Ege, do you have any idea what the Turkish military oaths entail?
I don't know. I'll look into it.
Found it.
Barista ve savasta, karada, denizde ve havada, her zaman ve her yerde milletime ve cumhuriyetime dogruluk ve muhabbetle hizmet ve kanunlara ve nizamlara ve amirlere itaat edecegime ve askerligin namusunu, Türk sancaginin sanini canimdan aziz bilip icabinda vatan, cumhuriyet ve vazife ugrunda seve seve hayatimi feda edecegime namusum üzerine and içerim.
Rough translation:
I swear by my honor that, in peace and at war, on land, in sea, and in air, always and everywhere, I will serve my nation and my republic with truth and honesty, that I will obey the Law and my superiors, and that I will not hesitate to willingly and lovingly sacrifice my life for the honor of soldiership and the greatness of the Turkish flag.
Thank you. I was curious if it was like the US oaths, which involve swearing to defend the constitution rather than the nation or the government.
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
Sorry, it started way back as a question of what you do when the government begins passing unconstitutional laws, but I went off on a tangent when I found out that once the Dutch government has passed a law (including the first house), it cannot be ruled unconstitutional.
Oh, right I missed the point. :P
I don't think the Dutch government is really such a good example in this, the people trust the government to not violate their own laws. It has been this way ever since 1848.
Sorry, it started way back as a question of what you do when the government begins passing unconstitutional laws, but I went off on a tangent when I found out that once the Dutch government has passed a law (including the first house), it cannot be ruled unconstitutional.
Oh, right I missed the point. :P
I don't think the Dutch government is really such a good example in this, the people trust the government to not violate their own laws. It has been this way ever since 1848.
They probably smoke so much weed they are perfectly content with everything anyway.
Well, SCOTUS couldn't stop Andrew Jackson from forceably removing the Cherokee from their territory and marching them to Oklahoma to die.
Was that brought about through an actual piece of legislation - i.e. a bill put through Congress and the Senate? Serious question, I don't know.
Still though, the constitution applies to unwritten government policy and executive orders, so it's kind of moot . . . just not as enforceable when put up against an actual written document.
Anayasa Mahkemesi (Constitutional Court) in Turkey canceled the first round of presidential election where the Islamist candidate got 10 votes short to become the next president of Turkey.
I was in both rallies, first in Ankara with near 1 million people and second in Istanbul with at least 2 million people. It is incredibly hard to count the number of people on these events but I can swear that it was at least 2 million. They estimated the million people by counting the people that crossed police checkpoints but there were twice as many people who couldn't even get to the checkpoints.
On May 13, I'll be going to Izmir, which is a castle for the ultra-secular Turks on the Aegean coast and some of the organizers are estimating 3 to 4 million for that one. The currently ruling party, AKP, got less than 10% of the votes in Izmir IIRC. So considering that there are over 5 million people living in Izmir province, I'd guess the number would be at least 3 million with people coming from surrounding cities.
Here's one interesting news about the Istanbul rally: The government has cut electricity in thousands of towns and villages in south and eastern Turkey so that people cannot watch the rallies on TV. They tried to avoid the influence it may have. They also stopped all public transportation in Istanbul on the day of the rally so people cannot get to the Caglayan Square. Given that Istanbul is one of the most-wide spread cities in the World, a lot of people were pissed off that they couldn't get to the rally. (fact: it took me 3.5 hours on a regular day to drive from one side of Istanbul to the other). So how can this government talk about democracy when they prevent the free flow of information and stop services to people who oppose them?
Cheers!
Basar on
i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language
Anayasa Mahkemesi (Constitutional Court) in Turkey canceled the first round of presidential election where the Islamist candidate got 10 votes short to become the next president of Turkey.
I was in both rallies, first in Ankara with near 1 million people and second in Istanbul with at least 2 million people. It is incredibly hard to count the number of people on these events but I can swear that it was at least 2 million. They estimated the million people by counting the people that crossed police checkpoints but there were twice as many people who couldn't even get to the checkpoints.
On May 13, I'll be going to Izmir, which is a castle for the ultra-secular Turks on the Aegean coast and some of the organizers are estimating 3 to 4 million for that one. The currently ruling party, AKP, got less than 10% of the votes in Izmir IIRC. So considering that there are over 5 million people living in Izmir province, I'd guess the number would be at least 3 million with people coming from surrounding cities.
Here's one interesting news about the Istanbul rally: The government has cut electricity in thousands of towns and villages in south and eastern Turkey so that people cannot watch the rallies on TV. They tried to avoid the influence it may have. They also stopped all public transportation in Istanbul on the day of the rally so people cannot get to the Caglayan Square. Given that Istanbul is one of the most-wide spread cities in the World, a lot of people were pissed off that they couldn't get to the rally. (fact: it took me 3.5 hours on a regular day to drive from one side of Istanbul to the other). So how can this government talk about democracy when they prevent the free flow of information and stop services to people who oppose them?
Cheers!
But they elected the AKP, therefore it was the will of the people that their power was shut off.;-)
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Anayasa Mahkemesi (Constitutional Court) in Turkey canceled the first round of presidential election where the Islamist candidate got 10 votes short to become the next president of Turkey.
I was in both rallies, first in Ankara with near 1 million people and second in Istanbul with at least 2 million people. It is incredibly hard to count the number of people on these events but I can swear that it was at least 2 million. They estimated the million people by counting the people that crossed police checkpoints but there were twice as many people who couldn't even get to the checkpoints.
On May 13, I'll be going to Izmir, which is a castle for the ultra-secular Turks on the Aegean coast and some of the organizers are estimating 3 to 4 million for that one. The currently ruling party, AKP, got less than 10% of the votes in Izmir IIRC. So considering that there are over 5 million people living in Izmir province, I'd guess the number would be at least 3 million with people coming from surrounding cities.
Here's one interesting news about the Istanbul rally: The government has cut electricity in thousands of towns and villages in south and eastern Turkey so that people cannot watch the rallies on TV. They tried to avoid the influence it may have. They also stopped all public transportation in Istanbul on the day of the rally so people cannot get to the Caglayan Square. Given that Istanbul is one of the most-wide spread cities in the World, a lot of people were pissed off that they couldn't get to the rally. (fact: it took me 3.5 hours on a regular day to drive from one side of Istanbul to the other). So how can this government talk about democracy when they prevent the free flow of information and stop services to people who oppose them?
Cheers!
But they elected the AKP, therefore it was the will of the people that their power was shut off.;-)
Well, they only got 33% of all votes and have almost 66% of the parliament. Not what I would call fair, but oh well
Basar on
i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language
Posts
If a government is demonstrably going against the constitution, does the military not have a duty to step in to protect the populace? Assuming that the government is not obeying the courts.
That said, if the population doesn't feel safe in opposing their government, I'd be worried about an armed force stepping in to take control.
Really it depends on who or what they are swearing to defend when they take their oath of service.
How? From what I have read, Dutch courts are not allowed to nullify laws on constitutional grounds.
- John Stuart Mill
I don't know. I'll look into it.
- John Stuart Mill
They must vote on any legislation made up in the Second Chamber.
What does this have to do with Turkey, though?
Found it.
Rough translation:
- John Stuart Mill
Thank you. I was curious if it was like the US oaths, which involve swearing to defend the constitution rather than the nation or the government.
- John Stuart Mill
Well, SCOTUS couldn't stop Andrew Jackson from forceably removing the Cherokee from their territory and marching them to Oklahoma to die.
Man where is my lime at?
I don't think the Dutch government is really such a good example in this, the people trust the government to not violate their own laws. It has been this way ever since 1848.
They probably smoke so much weed they are perfectly content with everything anyway.
Still though, the constitution applies to unwritten government policy and executive orders, so it's kind of moot . . . just not as enforceable when put up against an actual written document.
I believe he made a comment that the Supreme Court didn't have an army so he didn't care what the hell they said.
Anayasa Mahkemesi (Constitutional Court) in Turkey canceled the first round of presidential election where the Islamist candidate got 10 votes short to become the next president of Turkey.
I was in both rallies, first in Ankara with near 1 million people and second in Istanbul with at least 2 million people. It is incredibly hard to count the number of people on these events but I can swear that it was at least 2 million. They estimated the million people by counting the people that crossed police checkpoints but there were twice as many people who couldn't even get to the checkpoints.
On May 13, I'll be going to Izmir, which is a castle for the ultra-secular Turks on the Aegean coast and some of the organizers are estimating 3 to 4 million for that one. The currently ruling party, AKP, got less than 10% of the votes in Izmir IIRC. So considering that there are over 5 million people living in Izmir province, I'd guess the number would be at least 3 million with people coming from surrounding cities.
Here's one interesting news about the Istanbul rally: The government has cut electricity in thousands of towns and villages in south and eastern Turkey so that people cannot watch the rallies on TV. They tried to avoid the influence it may have. They also stopped all public transportation in Istanbul on the day of the rally so people cannot get to the Caglayan Square. Given that Istanbul is one of the most-wide spread cities in the World, a lot of people were pissed off that they couldn't get to the rally. (fact: it took me 3.5 hours on a regular day to drive from one side of Istanbul to the other). So how can this government talk about democracy when they prevent the free flow of information and stop services to people who oppose them?
Cheers!
Yeah, there you go.
On the otherhand an assassin attempted to shoot him and Andrew Jackson beat him thoroughly with his cane. That's pretty cool.
- John Stuart Mill
Well, they only got 33% of all votes and have almost 66% of the parliament. Not what I would call fair, but oh well