I doubt he actually seriously intends to kill himself. It's just emotional blackmail. Which is still inexcusable.
When someone threatens to kill themselves you take them at their word as a general rule. Even if you are fairly sure its not serious, better safe then sorry.
And even if its emotional blackmail I don't see any reason to not get the authorities involved and take him at his word.
All that'll achieve is the authorities showing up, him denying it, her corroborating, them leaving because they don't have enough evidence then him thinking that either A: she's called them or B: she's told someone else who's called them and I don't want to think about how he would react to that.
Too big a risk and it's not mine to take.
All that'll achieve is the authorities showing up, him denying it, her corroborating, them leaving because they don't have enough evidence then him thinking that either A: she's called them or B: she's told someone else who's called them and I don't want to think about how he would react to that.
Too big a risk and it's not mine to take.
If she'd corroborated it, then she has a bigger problem then you can handle and the advice given by a few others is probably the best, remove yourself from the situation.
The best you could do would be telling her family, and letting them become involved. But if she's that bad off, she needs serious help, and unless she's willing to admit its a issue and stop aiding her abuser and actively trying to remove herself, nothing short of a family intervention is going to help.
You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. You will end up tearing yourself up emotionally trying to.
My point still stands however, I'd still call social services for the sake of the kids.
I guess that is a good question... where exactly is her family in this whole picture?
Honestly - take the advice given here, which is to get some professionals involved. I bet you anything you like that this situation is not in any way uncommon - threats of leaving, taking kids, suicide etc are all part of abusive situations. There are people that are trained to offer real advice, including when to involve authorities, and when not to. She's also in denial from the sounds of it, and perhaps an outside perspective will be good for her.
The next peice of advice might not be so popular.
I think you need to take a step back yourself. From what you've written here - you are really emotionally charged about this (quite rightly), but my honest opinion is that this situation needs an injection of objective calmness and proffessional guidance - if not for her sake, then the kids.
I think you're getting caught up in the drama of the situation - Hell, from your post above, his suicide threat is working on you. It's stopping you from getting your friend help because you're frightened.
My heartfelt suggestion is this:
1) Google domestic abuse helplines
2) Call a number of them yourself and figure out which one is right for the situation
3) Provide a safe environment where your friend can have a chat to them
Fallingman on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited June 2010
If it were just her, I'd tell you that you need to accept what she decides, because otherwise you'll just alienate her, but get some counseling yourself if possible to help YOU deal with what you're seeing. She WILL come around, it's just a matter of time, and when she does you can be there with options for her in the form of a place to crash and numbers to call.
BUT it's not just her. It's her kids too. You need to call a professional ASAP, tell them the situation, find out what (if anything) you can do, and find out the best places to go to get a paper trail going if nothing else. People love their goddamn paper trails. Her kids' safety could well be at stake here (perhaps more than she knows or is willing to admit), and if that's not more concerning than whether or not her secret affair continues or her husband's manipulative threats of suicide, I really don't know what is. I understand that she's scared and it probably feels to her like he has all the cards, but somebody needs to snap her out of it because her children shouldn't have to grow up like that.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I'm not calling the police or social services because I genuinely think that the second he realises she's told someone what he did he is going to do something truly appalling, to her or the kids. I don't doubt he's more than capable, and if nobody called the police last time then he can do a whole lot worse without anyone getting help even remotely in time. I don't even know what her neighbours were thinking...
I haven't been able to speak to her, but I've been able to get in touch with a friend who's spoken to her.
She's asked to be left alone, keeps saying that she needs "to think about her kids first", which perversely she thinks means staying with him. I can't even comprehend how messed up her head must be to come to that conclusion... She's blaming herself entirely, doesn't even think it's his fault in the slightest.
The only friend at the moment who's in touch with her doesn't know what this guy has done, she's not the brightest girl and I'm afraid to tell her in case she does something stupid and wrecks the only way of communicating with her I've got. It's going to be a week until I can actually get a direct line.
Right now I'm just hoping that she'll settle things down at home and feel safe enough to start talking so we can try and convince her that the kids are in danger if she stays... all I can do.
SpongeCake on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
You know, her affair is going to really fucking hurt her in court.
Yes, she's with a bad person and I can understand being locked in a relationship (due to marry), but her having an affair, especially with very little to no documented physical evidence of abuse... well, unless this guy has some serious skeletons in his closet, she's going to lose a custody battle. And badly.
Honestly, I see this as poisoned relationship with both sides fucking up royally. People seem to almost forget theres kids caught in the middle.
If I was you, I'd offer up advice to her. Tell her how you feel. If she won't abide by it, and instead simply using you as a place to throw out her problems, cut yourself off from this situation and don't look back. You're not adept in dealing with this (otherwise you wouldn't be here asking), and your interaction with this ugly, ugly situation is going to cause more harm than good, and it's probably going to spill over in your life.
Also, I'm not doubting the guy is a complete jerk, but keep in mind one side of the story is always, always going to be just that: One side of the story. By cheating on her fiance and not standing up for her kids and doing something, anything to get them out of harms way, she's exacerbating the situation and making it worse.
If I caught my fiance cheating on me, I may not get physical, but I would be goddamned fucking furious.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
As an added bonus, in these particular situations you (as in SpongeCake) will get blamed if a confrontation happens where you try to stand up for her, and later he gets rough with her as a response to said confrontation.
For average people, this is a no-win situation. The guy is obviously unstable, but after reading more of this I see she's not exactly the picture of mental health either.
Get away from this thing. Shits going to get bad and, depending on your level on involvement, you're going to get issued a full ruck sack of grief and blame for just trying to help.
The big problem here is the children, who are in danger from this man. If you don't think that you can persuade her to leave, you can tip off social services anonymously so they know the children are at risk, and they can keep an eye on them.
I'm pretty sure the cheating wouldn't significantly harm her chances of getting custody. Especially since she's not married. The courts are just asking the question "Is this woman an adequate mother?" If she feeds, cares and supports her children, and does not expose them to her affairs, the courts will tend to not care about her personal sexual morality. After all, many if not most relationship breakups involve adultery, often from both sides. I'm not saying it's right - it clearly isn't - but it's not the Instant Bad Mother stigma that some people here seem to think it is. The woman is clearly off her rocker, though. If I was terrified of a brutal abuser, the last thing I'd do would be to have an affair - I wouldn't even dare burn his toast!
Without evidence of abuse, she'd probably not get sole custody though. It'd probably be the usual arrangement - Mum's place during the week, Dad's place at weekends.
If the guy's as brutal as Spongecake says he is, and the mother is as unwilling to leave as he indicates, and the social services find out about the abuse, they might actually remove the children from the custody of both parents and have them fostered. They take a very dim view of mothers who won't leave violent men, and are willing to let them stay exposed to abuse for the sake of their relationship.
CelestialBadger on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Depending on the district and state, infidelity can be a red flag that the kids may be growing up in an unstable household. Moral fiber is something courts look at, especially in this case where there isn't recorded incidents of abuse. If an outsider came in and just saw legal documentation, the only concrete things here are that the relationship is going south and she's cheating on him.
I'm sure his side of the story paints her in a very unflattering light, so the whole thing is a he-said-she-said ordeal with the only provable aspect of it all, without a psych exam (Which the judge could order, but probably won't), is that she is engaging in an affair while still being engaged to the father of the children.
If I was Sponge, I'd cut and run. No good can come of this, and unless he calls child services and narcs on em or kidnaps the kids and raises them as his own, he can't do anything to benefit the situation.
I personally think he should do that, since he believes they are in physical danger from their father. Although I do think he should ring the domestic abuse advice line to get proper advice before he does anything, because this is a really sticky situation that could easily get worse.
I personally think he should do that, since he believes they are in physical danger from their father. Although I do think he should ring the domestic abuse advice line to get proper advice before he does anything, because this is a really sticky situation that could easily get worse.
I'd already recommended two abuse lines and the state information lines and he's insistent that any calls will result in a negative situation for her. Unfortunately like I said, and you reiterated, the kids are the bigger issue here then the mother.
She has the option of making a choice, which she has, to stay in an abusive household. Her children however do not get a choice.
I'm still just wondering where the hell her family is in all of this and why Spongecake hasn't tried reaching out to them for help. Many times in these situations Social Services will put the kids in the care of parents as long as they are able to care for them if its proven the parents are unfit.
Moral judgements aside, they're my friends and I'm not going to abandon them because they made some bad decisions or because things got hard.
Edit:
I'm still just wondering where the hell her family is in all of this and why Spongecake hasn't tried reaching out to them for help.
Her mother is dead and her father is elderly, and as far as I'm aware not local.
I'd already recommended two abuse lines and the state information lines and he's insistent that any calls will result in a negative situation for her
...AND the kids. It's not like I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs because I'm afraid my friend is going to get a black eye, I have no idea what this guy will do to her OR to the kids. He's already demonstrated he doesn't give a shit about their wellbeing, and she's insistent that the best thing for the kids is to stay with him.
If you could turn around and say with 100% certainty that if I phoned the police or social services or whoever right now, both her and kids would be completely safe I would do it in a fucking heartbeart. You can't. What if this guy is serious about the suicide threats? What if, before deciding to top himself he decides to take his family with him? I've got a choice of two options here: 1. Call the police and risk the lives of a friend and her children, however small that risk might be, and 2. Wait it out and pray to god that she starts to see sense before the children are irreparably fucked up or worse. This is not the easy fucking decision you make it out to be.
I'd already recommended two abuse lines and the state information lines and he's insistent that any calls will result in a negative situation for her. Unfortunately like I said, and you reiterated, the kids are the bigger issue here then the mother.
is a confidential advice line. It will not force him to name names.
It is based in the UK, as Spongecake is, so will be better able to give advice to him than an american number.
They also have an email address, helpline@womensaid.org.uk so if he is really worried, he could set up a temporary hotmail account and email them from there.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited July 2010
If everything she says is true, it would not surprise me in the slightest if he was *already* doing things to the kids.
Not saying he definitely is, just that it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
...AND the kids. It's not like I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs because I'm afraid my friend is going to get a black eye, I have no idea what this guy will do to her OR to the kids. He's already demonstrated he doesn't give a shit about their wellbeing, and she's insistent that the best thing for the kids is to stay with him.
If you could turn around and say with 100% certainty that if I phoned the police or social services or whoever right now, both her and kids would be completely safe I would do it in a fucking heartbeart. You can't. What if this guy is serious about the suicide threats? What if, before deciding to top himself he decides to take his family with him? I've got a choice of two options here: 1. Call the police and risk the lives of a friend and her children, however small that risk might be, and 2. Wait it out and pray to god that she starts to see sense before the children are irreparably fucked up or worse. This is not the easy fucking decision you make it out to be.
I know that I haven't chimed in before but I felt this needed to be pointed out.
You're right, the decision for you is really hard. It's just not quite the decision you listed.
1. You call social services and the cops right now and hope for a safe resolution.
2. You don't call the cops and things escalate. It's a given, this will escalate, guys like this always do. And eventually, a week or a month or even a year might go by before he blows and everybody dies.
This is the choice you have. I know she's your friend but, like it or not, she's in denial and the vast majority of these cases end with one person killing the other. If she hasn't left by now then chances are that she never will and, sorry if this is callous but she's an adult. You can tell her what's right all day long but in the end if she stays then that's her choice. The ones that don't have a choice here are the kids.
Primesghost on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
This is the choice you have. I know she's your friend but, like it or not, she's in denial and the vast majority of these cases end with one person killing the other. If she hasn't left by now then chances are that she never will and, sorry if this is callous but she's an adult. You can tell her what's right all day long but in the end if she stays then that's her choice. The ones that don't have a choice here are the kids.
This feels extreme to say the least. Yes, she should get out for the kids. Yes, if he feels able he should do something; if he doesn't, he might want to step way the hell back, because even knowing someone who is dealing with an abusive relationship puts you in a terrible position as their friend. Yes this is horrible for the kids to have to watch. I just really feel that statements like this should be backed up; otherwise you're just fear-mongering and we don't know the exact situation well enough to do that.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
This is the choice you have. I know she's your friend but, like it or not, she's in denial and the vast majority of these cases end with one person killing the other.
It's not that bad. A lot of domestic violence cases can go on for decades without one partner killing the other. Of course, it results in a miserable and brutal childhood for the children involved. Cases where one parent murders the children and/or the other parent are thankfully quite rare.
CelestialBadger on
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
This is the choice you have. I know she's your friend but, like it or not, she's in denial and the vast majority of these cases end with one person killing the other.
It's a long walk from "emotional abuse, withholding affection, general dickishness of all sorts" to murdering the wife, kids, and turning the gun on yourself.
I mean the only actual physical abuse mentioned so far is the huge guy grabbing her by the neck and dragging her around savagely, while miraculously not leaving a mark. The rest seems to be what the woman appears to be telling Sponge, not what Sponge is actually observing.
This sets off all sorts of bullshit alarms and considering she asked him to stay out of it and not contact her, I guess the only thing there is to do is convince the friend who is cool with sleeping with the fiance of a mentally unstable abusive psychopath (I mean what could possibly go wrong there?), that perhaps he should take an active role and maybe offer shelter and support to his fuck buddy and her children.
Deebaser on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Deebaser already said it, but I'd like to expand.
When getting involved in this kind of thing, you can't take one side of the story and be absolutely sure its truth.
People who are in affairs do so for a reason, whatever it may be. Maybe their relationship is going south, whatever. But its not outside of the realm of possibility that she's making a lot of this shit up so she can feel better about her cheating on her kids father. It has happened before, especially to people who don't know the other partner.
What I'm saying is that, giving her the credit of being at least pretty mentally stable, this shit does not add up. Shes finding people to complain to about someone, claiming abuse of all kinds, but still thinks the best place for her kids is the dad? If she got several of her male family (or friends) over, she could pack up enough shit to get out.
I'm not saying he's not an asshole. I'm not saying she's making the entire thing up. What I'm saying is that there is a marked absence of family involvement, and once Sponge started getting seriously involved she cut off communication with him and everyone else.
I'm thinking theres way, way more (and in a way, less) to this story than Sponge is being informed of.
What I'm saying is that, giving her the credit of being at least pretty mentally stable, this shit does not add up. Shes finding people to complain to about someone, claiming abuse of all kinds, but still thinks the best place for her kids is the dad? If she got several of her male family (or friends) over, she could pack up enough shit to get out.
Unfortunately, women stay with men who abuse them (and sometimes ones who abuse their kids) frequently. It's a really, really common pattern. It's not crazy or off the wall to think that a woman would stay in that situation. It happens all the time.
His threats are working - you're too scared to do anything.
Look - what's being said also doesn't add up. If you're genuinely of the opinion that he's that unstable - how do you reconcile subjecting the children to that danger?
The idea that they are less safe once the right people know does not add up to me.
I know we can't know the full story, but to an outsider - it breaks down like this. It all sounds very dramatic. Idf the reality is as bad as the drama - then I think the right thing to do is obvious. Not very nice, but at least clear. If you genuinely think that this man is a danger to himself or others - you should do something about it.
He says he's gonna wait to see if she listens to reason and gets the children away, but if she really is being abused, the chances of that happening are pretty low. Many women stay in that kind situation for a long time.
Frankly, it's difficult to determine what to do about the adults involved, but you really should involve people more knowledgeable in this kind of situation. All the actors have placed themselves in this situation, save the children.
Besides, if the father is abusive, they already are in a terrible situation. Getting some experts involved will be to their benefit. You can't decide to sit there and do nothing for them because every once in a while, someone goes insane and murders his family. The chance of that happening here is significantly less than the chance of them going through of miserable childhood.
It's not like the choice is : 1.Wait: Children are miserable and 2.Act: murder suicide. If the guy is that crazy, he could snap even without your intervention. You seem to feel awfully conflicted about the situation, but how would you take it if your inaction led to a sad ending?
Ok, I realize I'm trying to guilt trip you, but seriously, the best course of action is to get some people involved, and then promptly distance yourself from all of this. It's best for the kids, and I think it's best for you as well. You think children are in danger, it's then your duty to act. But do this anonymously: no need to get in trouble for other people's horrible decisions. Just tell the lover to man up and take responsibility and get away from all of this. That is, after you've contacted some people that can give you good advice on this. None of us have been trained to deal with this kind of situation. When people go to this forum to ask questions about medical problems, the unanimous answer is "See a doctor!". Same deal here, you need to get help from people that have successfully resolved this kind of issue before.
Korlash on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
What I'm saying is that, giving her the credit of being at least pretty mentally stable, this shit does not add up. Shes finding people to complain to about someone, claiming abuse of all kinds, but still thinks the best place for her kids is the dad? If she got several of her male family (or friends) over, she could pack up enough shit to get out.
Unfortunately, women stay with men who abuse them (and sometimes ones who abuse their kids) frequently. It's a really, really common pattern. It's not crazy or off the wall to think that a woman would stay in that situation. It happens all the time.
It happens where they recognize its a bad situation, but feel helpless to change it.
In this case, the woman thinks its the best situation.
That... I dunno. This whole situation reeks of desperation.
What I'm saying is that, giving her the credit of being at least pretty mentally stable, this shit does not add up. Shes finding people to complain to about someone, claiming abuse of all kinds, but still thinks the best place for her kids is the dad? If she got several of her male family (or friends) over, she could pack up enough shit to get out.
Unfortunately, women stay with men who abuse them (and sometimes ones who abuse their kids) frequently. It's a really, really common pattern. It's not crazy or off the wall to think that a woman would stay in that situation. It happens all the time.
It happens where they recognize its a bad situation, but feel helpless to change it.
In this case, the woman thinks its the best situation.
That... I dunno. This whole situation reeks of desperation.
Its not just women either, victims of abuse like that stay in the situation most times. Its all part of the abuse, demoralizing the person till they don't feel they can survive on their own, or that the risk of leaving is too high to take.
To Spongecake, I was in a similar situation many years ago. A good friend of mine was dating an abusive prick that was manipulating her due to a medical condition she had, and in the process her young daughter was being mistreated. He would convince her it was ok to leave a 7 year old home alone for long periods, and she would spend all of her money on "making it up to him" when she made "mistakes" that the kid was living on ramen noodle or at times nothing.
It was a horrible situation, the guy was a loose canon, most of her friends were worried/scared for her and the kid and were helping how they could. Bringing over food, stopping by to watch the daughter, etc.
It got ridiculous and as a result I saw a bright, vibrant child slowly become withdrawn and depressed. And the mother just was not listening or seeing it.
I had enough when I found out they went away to Florida for a whole god damn week and left the 7 year old home BY HERSELF for an entire day because the person that was watching her couldn't come till the day after they left. I actually took off work as soon as I heard and spent the night with her, the person who had agreed to watch her had no idea they had left a whole day early.
I cared about my friend, she was one of my best friends, but that was the straw for me. I called social services and reported it, with details and pictures of how the house was being left and what was going on.
The result? I was threatened by the boyfriend, had to get a restraining order, the mother almost lost her daughter, but they got her into a program. She finally got away from the abusive asshole, her daughter had gotten support as well and they are both doing much better.
I didn't speak to her however for years, and it was hard to not keep in touch with her and her kid, who had for a long time been more like my niece then anything else. But social services dealt with the situation, once they knew the child was at risk she got a social worker that checked in on her and her mother.
His threats are working - you're too scared to do anything.
Look - what's being said also doesn't add up. If you're genuinely of the opinion that he's that unstable - how do you reconcile subjecting the children to that danger?
The idea that they are less safe once the right people know does not add up to me.
I know we can't know the full story, but to an outsider - it breaks down like this. It all sounds very dramatic. Idf the reality is as bad as the drama - then I think the right thing to do is obvious. Not very nice, but at least clear. If you genuinely think that this man is a danger to himself or others - you should do something about it.
Kinda... but what does letting the "right people know" actually do? I've worked in law enforcement for years and, at least in California, this exact situation would break down a lot like this:
forum guy: I'd like to report abuse, I know a friend who is abused but is afraid to report it
Police: OK well she kinda needs to get up the courage to call because it's kinda impossible to file a report for someone that isn't willing to file a report
Child protective services: We'll start up a case and look into it. This will take months.
Police: Probably will be forced to do a welfare check at her residence to make sure she is OK. The fiance will see the cops are on to him.
Fiance: this is where it gets a little scarier. The number of murder/suicides I've seen over stuff like this is gross. I would be VERY afraid if I were her - but that isn't an excuse to stay. She needs to leave him, but she needs to do it without telling him - she needs to leave and go somewhere that he can't find her. She needs to get her children in a place where he can't find them. She needs to THEN get the police involved.
If he finds where she is, very bad things will probably occur.
She's finally conceded that she's being emotionally blackmailed and she's actually confronted him about it which is such a huge relief. She even suggested that he move out and stay with his family for a while - I'm certain he won't, but the fact she's not only accepting that he's gone too far, but is even willing to confront him about it is fantastic.
He's desperate to stay with her, so has suggested that they go see a relationship counsellor. It's not great that he's desperate to stick around, but we're convincing her to go ahead with it if she can't/won't just leave him, so at least there will be a professional involved - ideally one who can see that the relationship is dangerous and can help her to get out and him to let her.
He's still unstable and she's clearly terrified of him, but I haven't heard about anything else physical happening. It's still not ideal, but I honestly believe things are progressing...
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When someone threatens to kill themselves you take them at their word as a general rule. Even if you are fairly sure its not serious, better safe then sorry.
And even if its emotional blackmail I don't see any reason to not get the authorities involved and take him at his word.
Too big a risk and it's not mine to take.
If she'd corroborated it, then she has a bigger problem then you can handle and the advice given by a few others is probably the best, remove yourself from the situation.
The best you could do would be telling her family, and letting them become involved. But if she's that bad off, she needs serious help, and unless she's willing to admit its a issue and stop aiding her abuser and actively trying to remove herself, nothing short of a family intervention is going to help.
You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. You will end up tearing yourself up emotionally trying to.
My point still stands however, I'd still call social services for the sake of the kids.
I guess that is a good question... where exactly is her family in this whole picture?
I feel very sad for your friend. I hope she can leave this guy. He sounds like bad news.
The next peice of advice might not be so popular.
I think you need to take a step back yourself. From what you've written here - you are really emotionally charged about this (quite rightly), but my honest opinion is that this situation needs an injection of objective calmness and proffessional guidance - if not for her sake, then the kids.
I think you're getting caught up in the drama of the situation - Hell, from your post above, his suicide threat is working on you. It's stopping you from getting your friend help because you're frightened.
My heartfelt suggestion is this:
1) Google domestic abuse helplines
2) Call a number of them yourself and figure out which one is right for the situation
3) Provide a safe environment where your friend can have a chat to them
BUT it's not just her. It's her kids too. You need to call a professional ASAP, tell them the situation, find out what (if anything) you can do, and find out the best places to go to get a paper trail going if nothing else. People love their goddamn paper trails. Her kids' safety could well be at stake here (perhaps more than she knows or is willing to admit), and if that's not more concerning than whether or not her secret affair continues or her husband's manipulative threats of suicide, I really don't know what is. I understand that she's scared and it probably feels to her like he has all the cards, but somebody needs to snap her out of it because her children shouldn't have to grow up like that.
I'm not calling the police or social services because I genuinely think that the second he realises she's told someone what he did he is going to do something truly appalling, to her or the kids. I don't doubt he's more than capable, and if nobody called the police last time then he can do a whole lot worse without anyone getting help even remotely in time. I don't even know what her neighbours were thinking...
I haven't been able to speak to her, but I've been able to get in touch with a friend who's spoken to her.
She's asked to be left alone, keeps saying that she needs "to think about her kids first", which perversely she thinks means staying with him. I can't even comprehend how messed up her head must be to come to that conclusion... She's blaming herself entirely, doesn't even think it's his fault in the slightest.
The only friend at the moment who's in touch with her doesn't know what this guy has done, she's not the brightest girl and I'm afraid to tell her in case she does something stupid and wrecks the only way of communicating with her I've got. It's going to be a week until I can actually get a direct line.
Right now I'm just hoping that she'll settle things down at home and feel safe enough to start talking so we can try and convince her that the kids are in danger if she stays... all I can do.
Yes, she's with a bad person and I can understand being locked in a relationship (due to marry), but her having an affair, especially with very little to no documented physical evidence of abuse... well, unless this guy has some serious skeletons in his closet, she's going to lose a custody battle. And badly.
Honestly, I see this as poisoned relationship with both sides fucking up royally. People seem to almost forget theres kids caught in the middle.
If I was you, I'd offer up advice to her. Tell her how you feel. If she won't abide by it, and instead simply using you as a place to throw out her problems, cut yourself off from this situation and don't look back. You're not adept in dealing with this (otherwise you wouldn't be here asking), and your interaction with this ugly, ugly situation is going to cause more harm than good, and it's probably going to spill over in your life.
Also, I'm not doubting the guy is a complete jerk, but keep in mind one side of the story is always, always going to be just that: One side of the story. By cheating on her fiance and not standing up for her kids and doing something, anything to get them out of harms way, she's exacerbating the situation and making it worse.
If I caught my fiance cheating on me, I may not get physical, but I would be goddamned fucking furious.
For average people, this is a no-win situation. The guy is obviously unstable, but after reading more of this I see she's not exactly the picture of mental health either.
Get away from this thing. Shits going to get bad and, depending on your level on involvement, you're going to get issued a full ruck sack of grief and blame for just trying to help.
I'm pretty sure the cheating wouldn't significantly harm her chances of getting custody. Especially since she's not married. The courts are just asking the question "Is this woman an adequate mother?" If she feeds, cares and supports her children, and does not expose them to her affairs, the courts will tend to not care about her personal sexual morality. After all, many if not most relationship breakups involve adultery, often from both sides. I'm not saying it's right - it clearly isn't - but it's not the Instant Bad Mother stigma that some people here seem to think it is. The woman is clearly off her rocker, though. If I was terrified of a brutal abuser, the last thing I'd do would be to have an affair - I wouldn't even dare burn his toast!
Without evidence of abuse, she'd probably not get sole custody though. It'd probably be the usual arrangement - Mum's place during the week, Dad's place at weekends.
If the guy's as brutal as Spongecake says he is, and the mother is as unwilling to leave as he indicates, and the social services find out about the abuse, they might actually remove the children from the custody of both parents and have them fostered. They take a very dim view of mothers who won't leave violent men, and are willing to let them stay exposed to abuse for the sake of their relationship.
I'm sure his side of the story paints her in a very unflattering light, so the whole thing is a he-said-she-said ordeal with the only provable aspect of it all, without a psych exam (Which the judge could order, but probably won't), is that she is engaging in an affair while still being engaged to the father of the children.
If I was Sponge, I'd cut and run. No good can come of this, and unless he calls child services and narcs on em or kidnaps the kids and raises them as his own, he can't do anything to benefit the situation.
I personally think he should do that, since he believes they are in physical danger from their father. Although I do think he should ring the domestic abuse advice line to get proper advice before he does anything, because this is a really sticky situation that could easily get worse.
http://www.nationaldomesticviolencehelpline.org.uk/
I'd already recommended two abuse lines and the state information lines and he's insistent that any calls will result in a negative situation for her. Unfortunately like I said, and you reiterated, the kids are the bigger issue here then the mother.
She has the option of making a choice, which she has, to stay in an abusive household. Her children however do not get a choice.
I'm still just wondering where the hell her family is in all of this and why Spongecake hasn't tried reaching out to them for help. Many times in these situations Social Services will put the kids in the care of parents as long as they are able to care for them if its proven the parents are unfit.
Edit:
Her mother is dead and her father is elderly, and as far as I'm aware not local.
...AND the kids. It's not like I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs because I'm afraid my friend is going to get a black eye, I have no idea what this guy will do to her OR to the kids. He's already demonstrated he doesn't give a shit about their wellbeing, and she's insistent that the best thing for the kids is to stay with him.
If you could turn around and say with 100% certainty that if I phoned the police or social services or whoever right now, both her and kids would be completely safe I would do it in a fucking heartbeart. You can't. What if this guy is serious about the suicide threats? What if, before deciding to top himself he decides to take his family with him? I've got a choice of two options here: 1. Call the police and risk the lives of a friend and her children, however small that risk might be, and 2. Wait it out and pray to god that she starts to see sense before the children are irreparably fucked up or worse. This is not the easy fucking decision you make it out to be.
The line I mentioned
http://www.nationaldomesticviolencehelpline.org.uk/
0808 2000 247
is a confidential advice line. It will not force him to name names.
It is based in the UK, as Spongecake is, so will be better able to give advice to him than an american number.
They also have an email address, helpline@womensaid.org.uk so if he is really worried, he could set up a temporary hotmail account and email them from there.
Not saying he definitely is, just that it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
I know that I haven't chimed in before but I felt this needed to be pointed out.
You're right, the decision for you is really hard. It's just not quite the decision you listed.
1. You call social services and the cops right now and hope for a safe resolution.
2. You don't call the cops and things escalate. It's a given, this will escalate, guys like this always do. And eventually, a week or a month or even a year might go by before he blows and everybody dies.
This is the choice you have. I know she's your friend but, like it or not, she's in denial and the vast majority of these cases end with one person killing the other. If she hasn't left by now then chances are that she never will and, sorry if this is callous but she's an adult. You can tell her what's right all day long but in the end if she stays then that's her choice. The ones that don't have a choice here are the kids.
It's not that bad. A lot of domestic violence cases can go on for decades without one partner killing the other. Of course, it results in a miserable and brutal childhood for the children involved. Cases where one parent murders the children and/or the other parent are thankfully quite rare.
It's a long walk from "emotional abuse, withholding affection, general dickishness of all sorts" to murdering the wife, kids, and turning the gun on yourself.
I mean the only actual physical abuse mentioned so far is the huge guy grabbing her by the neck and dragging her around savagely, while miraculously not leaving a mark. The rest seems to be what the woman appears to be telling Sponge, not what Sponge is actually observing.
This sets off all sorts of bullshit alarms and considering she asked him to stay out of it and not contact her, I guess the only thing there is to do is convince the friend who is cool with sleeping with the fiance of a mentally unstable abusive psychopath (I mean what could possibly go wrong there?), that perhaps he should take an active role and maybe offer shelter and support to his fuck buddy and her children.
When getting involved in this kind of thing, you can't take one side of the story and be absolutely sure its truth.
People who are in affairs do so for a reason, whatever it may be. Maybe their relationship is going south, whatever. But its not outside of the realm of possibility that she's making a lot of this shit up so she can feel better about her cheating on her kids father. It has happened before, especially to people who don't know the other partner.
What I'm saying is that, giving her the credit of being at least pretty mentally stable, this shit does not add up. Shes finding people to complain to about someone, claiming abuse of all kinds, but still thinks the best place for her kids is the dad? If she got several of her male family (or friends) over, she could pack up enough shit to get out.
I'm not saying he's not an asshole. I'm not saying she's making the entire thing up. What I'm saying is that there is a marked absence of family involvement, and once Sponge started getting seriously involved she cut off communication with him and everyone else.
I'm thinking theres way, way more (and in a way, less) to this story than Sponge is being informed of.
Unfortunately, women stay with men who abuse them (and sometimes ones who abuse their kids) frequently. It's a really, really common pattern. It's not crazy or off the wall to think that a woman would stay in that situation. It happens all the time.
Look - what's being said also doesn't add up. If you're genuinely of the opinion that he's that unstable - how do you reconcile subjecting the children to that danger?
The idea that they are less safe once the right people know does not add up to me.
I know we can't know the full story, but to an outsider - it breaks down like this. It all sounds very dramatic. Idf the reality is as bad as the drama - then I think the right thing to do is obvious. Not very nice, but at least clear. If you genuinely think that this man is a danger to himself or others - you should do something about it.
Frankly, it's difficult to determine what to do about the adults involved, but you really should involve people more knowledgeable in this kind of situation. All the actors have placed themselves in this situation, save the children.
Besides, if the father is abusive, they already are in a terrible situation. Getting some experts involved will be to their benefit. You can't decide to sit there and do nothing for them because every once in a while, someone goes insane and murders his family. The chance of that happening here is significantly less than the chance of them going through of miserable childhood.
It's not like the choice is : 1.Wait: Children are miserable and 2.Act: murder suicide. If the guy is that crazy, he could snap even without your intervention. You seem to feel awfully conflicted about the situation, but how would you take it if your inaction led to a sad ending?
Ok, I realize I'm trying to guilt trip you, but seriously, the best course of action is to get some people involved, and then promptly distance yourself from all of this. It's best for the kids, and I think it's best for you as well. You think children are in danger, it's then your duty to act. But do this anonymously: no need to get in trouble for other people's horrible decisions. Just tell the lover to man up and take responsibility and get away from all of this. That is, after you've contacted some people that can give you good advice on this. None of us have been trained to deal with this kind of situation. When people go to this forum to ask questions about medical problems, the unanimous answer is "See a doctor!". Same deal here, you need to get help from people that have successfully resolved this kind of issue before.
It happens where they recognize its a bad situation, but feel helpless to change it.
In this case, the woman thinks its the best situation.
That... I dunno. This whole situation reeks of desperation.
Its not just women either, victims of abuse like that stay in the situation most times. Its all part of the abuse, demoralizing the person till they don't feel they can survive on their own, or that the risk of leaving is too high to take.
To Spongecake, I was in a similar situation many years ago. A good friend of mine was dating an abusive prick that was manipulating her due to a medical condition she had, and in the process her young daughter was being mistreated. He would convince her it was ok to leave a 7 year old home alone for long periods, and she would spend all of her money on "making it up to him" when she made "mistakes" that the kid was living on ramen noodle or at times nothing.
It was a horrible situation, the guy was a loose canon, most of her friends were worried/scared for her and the kid and were helping how they could. Bringing over food, stopping by to watch the daughter, etc.
It got ridiculous and as a result I saw a bright, vibrant child slowly become withdrawn and depressed. And the mother just was not listening or seeing it.
I had enough when I found out they went away to Florida for a whole god damn week and left the 7 year old home BY HERSELF for an entire day because the person that was watching her couldn't come till the day after they left. I actually took off work as soon as I heard and spent the night with her, the person who had agreed to watch her had no idea they had left a whole day early.
I cared about my friend, she was one of my best friends, but that was the straw for me. I called social services and reported it, with details and pictures of how the house was being left and what was going on.
The result? I was threatened by the boyfriend, had to get a restraining order, the mother almost lost her daughter, but they got her into a program. She finally got away from the abusive asshole, her daughter had gotten support as well and they are both doing much better.
I didn't speak to her however for years, and it was hard to not keep in touch with her and her kid, who had for a long time been more like my niece then anything else. But social services dealt with the situation, once they knew the child was at risk she got a social worker that checked in on her and her mother.
Kinda... but what does letting the "right people know" actually do? I've worked in law enforcement for years and, at least in California, this exact situation would break down a lot like this:
forum guy: I'd like to report abuse, I know a friend who is abused but is afraid to report it
Police: OK well she kinda needs to get up the courage to call because it's kinda impossible to file a report for someone that isn't willing to file a report
Child protective services: We'll start up a case and look into it. This will take months.
Police: Probably will be forced to do a welfare check at her residence to make sure she is OK. The fiance will see the cops are on to him.
Fiance: this is where it gets a little scarier. The number of murder/suicides I've seen over stuff like this is gross. I would be VERY afraid if I were her - but that isn't an excuse to stay. She needs to leave him, but she needs to do it without telling him - she needs to leave and go somewhere that he can't find her. She needs to get her children in a place where he can't find them. She needs to THEN get the police involved.
If he finds where she is, very bad things will probably occur.
Hopefully the UK has ones like we have here, where they have officially undisclosed locations.
She's finally conceded that she's being emotionally blackmailed and she's actually confronted him about it which is such a huge relief. She even suggested that he move out and stay with his family for a while - I'm certain he won't, but the fact she's not only accepting that he's gone too far, but is even willing to confront him about it is fantastic.
He's desperate to stay with her, so has suggested that they go see a relationship counsellor. It's not great that he's desperate to stick around, but we're convincing her to go ahead with it if she can't/won't just leave him, so at least there will be a professional involved - ideally one who can see that the relationship is dangerous and can help her to get out and him to let her.
He's still unstable and she's clearly terrified of him, but I haven't heard about anything else physical happening. It's still not ideal, but I honestly believe things are progressing...