So i learned last night that if you're going Ultralisks against terran, you NEED to get max melee upgrades
I had 1 attack, 2 carapace, and the ultralisk armor upgrade. Tore through the guys tanks, but then he bounced back with a fully upgraded marines with medivacs
The ultralisks just could.not.kill. the marines, it'd take about 8 attacks to kill one because of the medivacs healing so fast
Had to hop into the unit editor and do some testing. Basically if your ultras are equal or better in upgrades they'll do alright, but if they're behind they're useless against marines+medivacs
Yeah, terran can get max infantry upgrades before you can even get ultras, so you need to start working on that melee upgrade early, which usually means a 3rd evo chamber.
Also consider throwing some banelings in there, because really ultras are anti armor now, not anti marine.
For the record, lots and lots of people were trying to get Blizz to change the rally points to move and not attack-move because of cases where newly-created units were immediately engaging alone and dying to superior forces instead of retreating to some place where a force could be accumulated to kick out the occupying enemy.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
So i learned last night that if you're going Ultralisks against terran, you NEED to get max melee upgrades
I had 1 attack, 2 carapace, and the ultralisk armor upgrade. Tore through the guys tanks, but then he bounced back with a fully upgraded marines with medivacs
The ultralisks just could.not.kill. the marines, it'd take about 8 attacks to kill one because of the medivacs healing so fast
Had to hop into the unit editor and do some testing. Basically if your ultras are equal or better in upgrades they'll do alright, but if they're behind they're useless against marines+medivacs
This is partly why fungal growth works so well with Ultralisks, it essentially negates the medivac healing, as well as preventing them from kiting. Infestors make Ultralisks a lot stronger than they otherwise would be (just watch some of TLO's play to get an idea of how powerful this combo is).
mEEksa on
0
Options
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
I just got hit with 3 void rays and so many fast zealots. so many.
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
People who weren't on the lobby last night missed some exceptional games. Exoplasm got the ball rolling with an intense action-packed game against Invictus, going mass queens into hydras to take the game in a nail-biting victory. Ryougi, not to be outdone, went mass queens+overseers off of 5 bases against Invictus (she had 20 something queens at some point). Unfortunately eztoss is overpowered and somehow beat that exceptional build with only 2 bases.
I still do not understand how it is that I lost that game to Exo. My expand was up before his (!), my harass was pretty good, and all of a sudden I try to attack and lose everything. (please do not respond with what I did wrong in that game; this is mostly tongue in cheek)
I hear upgrading units is a pretty good idea. Especially if you love mass zealots.
People who weren't on the lobby last night missed some exceptional games. Exoplasm got the ball rolling with an intense action-packed game against Invictus, going mass queens into hydras to take the game in a nail-biting victory. Ryougi, not to be outdone, went mass queens+overseers off of 5 bases against Invictus (she had 20 something queens at some point). Unfortunately eztoss is overpowered and somehow beat that exceptional build with only 2 bases.
I still do not understand how it is that I lost that game to Exo. My expand was up before his (!), my harass was pretty good, and all of a sudden I try to attack and lose everything. (please do not respond with what I did wrong in that game; this is mostly tongue in cheek)
I hear upgrading units is a pretty good idea. Especially if you love mass zealots.
I dunno, though. It costs so much, and I was so tight on money that game!
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
0
Options
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Has anyone done the break down of when it becomes viable to buy an upgrade instead of just produce a new unit of type X? Obviously the more units of type X you have, the more awesome an upgrade becomes, I was just curious if anyone had figured out a mathematically pretty answer.
I just got hit with 3 void rays and so many fast zealots. so many.
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
Any player relying on heavy mineral-only units probably has some gimmick or surprise attack coming. The most common is zerg going lings to muta / ling, but anytime you see a force composed mostly of marines / zealots / zerglings you should ask yourself "where is that gas going?"
Has anyone done the break down of when it becomes viable to buy an upgrade instead of just produce a new unit of type X? Obviously the more units of type X you have, the more awesome an upgrade becomes, I was just curious if anyone had figured out a mathematically pretty answer.
It is actually going to depend quite a bit on the unit matchups. Marines vs. zerglings, for example, upgrades will matter very quickly. A single point of zergling armor reduces a marine's damage from 6 to 5, that's a substantial drop. That single point of armor doesn't help much against a siege tank. 3/3 marines against 0/0 hydralisks will be extraordinarily one-sided. 3/3 marines against 0/0 banelings will still end pretty badly for the marines.
Level 1 upgrades are so cheap I consider them almost mandatory for any unit you're going to build more than a handful of.
Has anyone done the break down of when it becomes viable to buy an upgrade instead of just produce a new unit of type X? Obviously the more units of type X you have, the more awesome an upgrade becomes, I was just curious if anyone had figured out a mathematically pretty answer.
The rule is this.
Are you about to attack or be attacked?
If no, get the upgrade.
If yes, can you fend off the attack with what you have?
If yes, get the upgrade.
Is your attack some game ending timed attack or just harass?
If harass, get the upgrade.
I mean, even if an upgrade doesn't give you that much of a damage boost for 4 zealots as a zealot alone would, you're going to be getting more units anyway, so you may as well work on it.
For the record, lots and lots of people were trying to get Blizz to change the rally points to move and not attack-move because of cases where newly-created units were immediately engaging alone and dying to superior forces instead of retreating to some place where a force could be accumulated to kick out the occupying enemy.
That makes sense. I wish there was a way to toggle it. Non-attack move units running into equal forces that are on attack move is just bad. It becomes a huge problem when enemy units are in very close proximity to your unit producing buildings. I am sure I will get used to it, but I was already used to the old rally attack move.
Shens on
0
Options
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
So i learned last night that if you're going Ultralisks against terran, you NEED to get max melee upgrades
I had 1 attack, 2 carapace, and the ultralisk armor upgrade. Tore through the guys tanks, but then he bounced back with a fully upgraded marines with medivacs
The ultralisks just could.not.kill. the marines, it'd take about 8 attacks to kill one because of the medivacs healing so fast
Had to hop into the unit editor and do some testing. Basically if your ultras are equal or better in upgrades they'll do alright, but if they're behind they're useless against marines+medivacs
This is partly why fungal growth works so well with Ultralisks, it essentially negates the medivac healing, as well as preventing them from kiting. Infestors make Ultralisks a lot stronger than they otherwise would be (just watch some of TLO's play to get an idea of how powerful this combo is).
Yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience to me since I haven't really tried ultras much before. It was a pretty sweet game with a fair bit of back and forth, and the ultras almost managed to win the game for me with a doom drop until the marines came out in mass. Main thing that lost it for me I think was not having enough drones, I had map control but didn't have the income to bounce back quick enough. Next time I'll know better be ready to implement banelings or soemthing (also remember to get the infestor energy upgrade, that was a frustrating realization).
Here's the game if anyones interested (plat vs plat league)
I just got hit with 3 void rays and so many fast zealots. so many.
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
Any player relying on heavy mineral-only units probably has some gimmick or surprise attack coming. The most common is zerg going lings to muta / ling, but anytime you see a force composed mostly of marines / zealots / zerglings you should ask yourself "where is that gas going?"
I thought he was going to high temps but it turned out to be zealot speed I guess. I saw stalkers in his army and apparently made assumptions that there were more than two but that wasn't the case. oh well.
I just got hit with 3 void rays and so many fast zealots. so many.
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
Any player relying on heavy mineral-only units probably has some gimmick or surprise attack coming. The most common is zerg going lings to muta / ling, but anytime you see a force composed mostly of marines / zealots / zerglings you should ask yourself "where is that gas going?"
And then.. BAM! BANELINGS ALL OVER OUR BASE!
I fall victim to not scouting enough. If you are scouting enough, you never have to ask that question. (Minus banelings, the silent death) I feel it is worth it to occasionally waste a unit in the quest for more map vision.
I think my favorite thing in the world is seeing someone scout or scan and knowing that they missed the key tech structure 'cause I hid it.
Oh you saw my defenses? Too bad you didn't see the Spire and don't have any AA.
And you didn't see the rolling army of explosive acid about to hit your wall.
the hidden spire is probably my favorite thing too, make an overlord poop creep in some secluded spot
i still remember the first time i did that, when the guy scanned me i built a hydralisk den for him to see on purpose.
as the mutalisks killed his last few marines til he had nothing but the heavy amount of hellions he had gone into, he asked: "but where was the spire?"
People who weren't on the lobby last night missed some exceptional games. Exoplasm got the ball rolling with an intense action-packed game against Invictus, going mass queens into hydras to take the game in a nail-biting victory. Ryougi, not to be outdone, went mass queens+overseers off of 5 bases against Invictus (she had 20 something queens at some point). Unfortunately eztoss is overpowered and somehow beat that exceptional build with only 2 bases.
I still do not understand how it is that I lost that game to Exo. My expand was up before his (!), my harass was pretty good, and all of a sudden I try to attack and lose everything. (please do not respond with what I did wrong in that game; this is mostly tongue in cheek)
I hear upgrading units is a pretty good idea. Especially if you love mass zealots.
Dude, quit whining. You lost fair and square to my superior macro. My expansion was timed perfectly to counter yours. Meanwhile, my queens were ready to stave off any of your harassment attempts. I can't forget to mention my 5 land sharks that just completely owned at not actually killing anything while my main hydra army was burrowed outside your ramp for no real reason.
I just got hit with 3 void rays and so many fast zealots. so many.
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
Any player relying on heavy mineral-only units probably has some gimmick or surprise attack coming. The most common is zerg going lings to muta / ling, but anytime you see a force composed mostly of marines / zealots / zerglings you should ask yourself "where is that gas going?"
And then.. BAM! BANELINGS ALL OVER OUR BASE!
I fall victim to not scouting enough. If you are scouting enough, you never have to ask that question. (Minus banelings, the silent death) I feel it is worth it to occasionally waste a unit in the quest for more map vision.
the thing that sucked is I did scout and saw gateway units and gateways. stargate was hidden. I mean, it's not like it was a VR rush or anything I just didn't expect it at all. and the marines I had were raped by speedlots.
but yeah if I had looked harder and thought harder I'd have realized something wasn't right and I should be keeping myself safe.
So is it even going to be possible to discuss the campaign in here?
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
We likely will, since the Umojans and Kel-Morian Combine are definitely influential and powerful Terran factions in the StarCraft universe.
I'm really looking forward to StarCraft II's single-player campaign, but I'm hoping that Blizzard hasn't become lazy and ruined the lore (*cough* World of WarCraft *cough*)
Definitely had a Terran try to Planetary Fortress drop on me after my first baneling bust was sort of defeated when the last 4 workers I hadn't killed took out my lings.
Yeah if you think about all the parts of that you should see why that didn't work so well. Also, after my first baneling bust took out his wall off of one rax and 3 supply depots, he rebuilt with.... 3 supply depots. My second bust, while I was teching to Mutas to take out the obvious island expansion, as well as just being ZvT, took out all the depots and then the 16 speedlings I sent in were enough to mop up for the gg.
Oh man I am soo angry. So when I had an authenticator when I played WoW for awhile a few months back. I quit but SC2 required the authenticator to log in because it was part of my account...I happened to misplace said authenticator and have not been able to get in contact with support, its always too busy to even put me on hold. I NEED SC2! I have not been able to play since it came back up!
Has anyone done the break down of when it becomes viable to buy an upgrade instead of just produce a new unit of type X? Obviously the more units of type X you have, the more awesome an upgrade becomes, I was just curious if anyone had figured out a mathematically pretty answer.
The rule is this.
Are you about to attack or be attacked?
If no, get the upgrade.
If yes, can you fend off the attack with what you have?
If yes, get the upgrade.
Is your attack some game ending timed attack or just harass?
If harass, get the upgrade.
I mean, even if an upgrade doesn't give you that much of a damage boost for 4 zealots as a zealot alone would, you're going to be getting more units anyway, so you may as well work on it.
It is probably important to note that the damage output increase isn't always just about adding 1 extra damage.
For instance a zealot does 8x2 which means it will take 3 hits to kill a zergling. If you get +1 weapons before your enemy gets +1 carapace you are now 2 shotting zerglings with your zealots and you don't waste much damage on overkill.
Killing 3 instead of 2 with every 6 hits.
Coming up pure zealots vs pure zerglings is unlikely sure, but it is something to keep in mind.
Posts
I had 1 attack, 2 carapace, and the ultralisk armor upgrade. Tore through the guys tanks, but then he bounced back with a fully upgraded marines with medivacs
The ultralisks just could.not.kill. the marines, it'd take about 8 attacks to kill one because of the medivacs healing so fast
Had to hop into the unit editor and do some testing. Basically if your ultras are equal or better in upgrades they'll do alright, but if they're behind they're useless against marines+medivacs
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Also consider throwing some banelings in there, because really ultras are anti armor now, not anti marine.
This is partly why fungal growth works so well with Ultralisks, it essentially negates the medivac healing, as well as preventing them from kiting. Infestors make Ultralisks a lot stronger than they otherwise would be (just watch some of TLO's play to get an idea of how powerful this combo is).
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
I hear upgrading units is a pretty good idea. Especially if you love mass zealots.
I dunno, though. It costs so much, and I was so tight on money that game!
Any player relying on heavy mineral-only units probably has some gimmick or surprise attack coming. The most common is zerg going lings to muta / ling, but anytime you see a force composed mostly of marines / zealots / zerglings you should ask yourself "where is that gas going?"
It is actually going to depend quite a bit on the unit matchups. Marines vs. zerglings, for example, upgrades will matter very quickly. A single point of zergling armor reduces a marine's damage from 6 to 5, that's a substantial drop. That single point of armor doesn't help much against a siege tank. 3/3 marines against 0/0 hydralisks will be extraordinarily one-sided. 3/3 marines against 0/0 banelings will still end pretty badly for the marines.
Level 1 upgrades are so cheap I consider them almost mandatory for any unit you're going to build more than a handful of.
The rule is this.
Are you about to attack or be attacked?
If no, get the upgrade.
If yes, can you fend off the attack with what you have?
If yes, get the upgrade.
Is your attack some game ending timed attack or just harass?
If harass, get the upgrade.
I mean, even if an upgrade doesn't give you that much of a damage boost for 4 zealots as a zealot alone would, you're going to be getting more units anyway, so you may as well work on it.
That makes sense. I wish there was a way to toggle it. Non-attack move units running into equal forces that are on attack move is just bad. It becomes a huge problem when enemy units are in very close proximity to your unit producing buildings. I am sure I will get used to it, but I was already used to the old rally attack move.
today, 7 games, 6 zerg..hmmm
Yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience to me since I haven't really tried ultras much before. It was a pretty sweet game with a fair bit of back and forth, and the ultras almost managed to win the game for me with a doom drop until the marines came out in mass. Main thing that lost it for me I think was not having enough drones, I had map control but didn't have the income to bounce back quick enough. Next time I'll know better be ready to implement banelings or soemthing (also remember to get the infestor energy upgrade, that was a frustrating realization).
Here's the game if anyones interested (plat vs plat league)
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I thought he was going to high temps but it turned out to be zealot speed I guess. I saw stalkers in his army and apparently made assumptions that there were more than two but that wasn't the case. oh well.
And then.. BAM! BANELINGS ALL OVER OUR BASE!
I fall victim to not scouting enough. If you are scouting enough, you never have to ask that question. (Minus banelings, the silent death) I feel it is worth it to occasionally waste a unit in the quest for more map vision.
Oh you saw my defenses? Too bad you didn't see the Spire and don't have any AA.
And you didn't see the rolling army of explosive acid about to hit your wall.
the hidden spire is probably my favorite thing too, make an overlord poop creep in some secluded spot
i still remember the first time i did that, when the guy scanned me i built a hydralisk den for him to see on purpose.
as the mutalisks killed his last few marines til he had nothing but the heavy amount of hellions he had gone into, he asked: "but where was the spire?"
Dude, quit whining. You lost fair and square to my superior macro. My expansion was timed perfectly to counter yours. Meanwhile, my queens were ready to stave off any of your harassment attempts. I can't forget to mention my 5 land sharks that just completely owned at not actually killing anything while my main hydra army was burrowed outside your ramp for no real reason.
Honestly, I'm not even sure why I won that match.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
one of my favorite things with toss is how hard you can macro at the start by just constantly chronoboosting your nexus
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
AKA [PA]Ilovepandas
PvP is the only one I don't actually mind. I despise ZvZ & TvT.
https://wakkawa.iseenothing.com/temppic/yes.SC2Replay
Replay of the first time I tried it.
you meant to say make more roaches, because you just make a bunch of roaches and win
the thing that sucked is I did scout and saw gateway units and gateways. stargate was hidden. I mean, it's not like it was a VR rush or anything I just didn't expect it at all. and the marines I had were raped by speedlots.
but yeah if I had looked harder and thought harder I'd have realized something wasn't right and I should be keeping myself safe.
What do you mean - tvt is the greatest
You are the greatest unit ever.
Though my macro goes to shit when I start microing you.
I love massing phoenix in team games but they are so damn expensive for what they do. mutas cost 50 minerals less wtf is that
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
I'm really looking forward to StarCraft II's single-player campaign, but I'm hoping that Blizzard hasn't become lazy and ruined the lore (*cough* World of WarCraft *cough*)
Definitely had a Terran try to Planetary Fortress drop on me after my first baneling bust was sort of defeated when the last 4 workers I hadn't killed took out my lings.
Yeah if you think about all the parts of that you should see why that didn't work so well. Also, after my first baneling bust took out his wall off of one rax and 3 supply depots, he rebuilt with.... 3 supply depots. My second bust, while I was teching to Mutas to take out the obvious island expansion, as well as just being ZvT, took out all the depots and then the 16 speedlings I sent in were enough to mop up for the gg.
It is probably important to note that the damage output increase isn't always just about adding 1 extra damage.
For instance a zealot does 8x2 which means it will take 3 hits to kill a zergling. If you get +1 weapons before your enemy gets +1 carapace you are now 2 shotting zerglings with your zealots and you don't waste much damage on overkill.
Killing 3 instead of 2 with every 6 hits.
Coming up pure zealots vs pure zerglings is unlikely sure, but it is something to keep in mind.