Has anyone done the break down of when it becomes viable to buy an upgrade instead of just produce a new unit of type X? Obviously the more units of type X you have, the more awesome an upgrade becomes, I was just curious if anyone had figured out a mathematically pretty answer.
The rule is this.
Are you about to attack or be attacked?
If no, get the upgrade.
If yes, can you fend off the attack with what you have?
If yes, get the upgrade.
Is your attack some game ending timed attack or just harass?
If harass, get the upgrade.
I mean, even if an upgrade doesn't give you that much of a damage boost for 4 zealots as a zealot alone would, you're going to be getting more units anyway, so you may as well work on it.
It is probably important to note that the damage output increase isn't always just about adding 1 extra damage.
For instance a zealot does 8x2 which means it will take 3 hits to kill a zergling. If you get +1 weapons before your enemy gets +1 carapace you are now 2 shotting zerglings with your zealots and you don't waste much damage on overkill.
Killing 3 instead of 2 with every 6 hits.
Coming up pure zealots vs pure zerglings is unlikely sure, but it is something to keep in mind.
In my experience, this happens all the freaking time, and the difference is really huge.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
As a Terran main, my issue is when to expand vs. the various races - when should I expand against toss/zerg? What can I get away with? People typically recommend FE vs. toss, but shouldn't they be able to hose me with enough t1?
people recommend FE vs toss? I remember that build being popular a few patches ago but then it quickly became obsolete since people found out that lots of early stalker pressure and later blink could crush it.
I'm pretty scared to FE vs toss because yes, once warpgates are up theres probably a nice timing where he will straight crush you with t1 or might just be able to push with a couple immortals and wreck your bunkers.
I need to learn the other races better, I hate only being able to play T without looking like a fool. and even then mostly looking like a fool.
I thought this exact thing and then started playing random before playing the last big reset. I became interested in protoss (as opposed to zerg who I have been playing since the begining and now) and finally got pretty good with them.. I never got into Terran, and always was horrible with them. I didn't try to learn how to play as Terran at all, and still haven't.
Terran is by far my worst match-up. I complain that they are hard to play against, but I just don't have ANY clue what their high level strategies consist of.
Unless you are coming with mass marine I don't know what to do. Although lately I've just been powering tons of Hydralisks and mutalisks, and that has worked ok.
So is it even going to be possible to discuss the campaign in here?
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
I was thinking about starting a separate thread for all SP and user maps talk and leave this one for MP only? Too much? Thoughts?
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
Ohhhh man I'm gonna be on a terrible losing streak tonight I can feel it. Every game so far has been fuckup city. Trying to setup a timer app on my phone to repeat every 30 seconds for larva. Maybe I should get that setup before a game rather than during.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
So is it even going to be possible to discuss the campaign in here?
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
I was thinking about starting a separate thread for all SP and user maps talk and leave this one for MP only? Too much? Thoughts?
We should probably start a thread for single player talk when the game is released.
I mean, this thread is going to explode and it's going to be near impossible for anyone to get help with it moving at a mile a minute.
people recommend FE vs toss? I remember that build being popular a few patches ago but then it quickly became obsolete since people found out that lots of early stalker pressure and later blink could crush it.
I'm pretty scared to FE vs toss because yes, once warpgates are up theres probably a nice timing where he will straight crush you with t1 or might just be able to push with a couple immortals and wreck your bunkers.
That's what I thought as well. I've been watching lobby PA games and was surprised by the lack of scouting + FE by a terran vs. toss on steppes of war. People said it was safe, but every game I've played begs to differ.
So is it even going to be possible to discuss the campaign in here?
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
I was thinking about starting a separate thread for all SP and user maps talk and leave this one for MP only? Too much? Thoughts?
We should probably start a thread for single player talk when the game is released.
I mean, this thread is going to explode and it's going to be near impossible for anyone to get help with it moving at a mile a minute.
My thoughts exactly. I'll prep a thread and release it a few days before launch, probably that Sunday.
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
0
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
So is it even going to be possible to discuss the campaign in here?
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
I was thinking about starting a separate thread for all SP and user maps talk and leave this one for MP only? Too much? Thoughts?
We should probably start a thread for single player talk when the game is released.
I mean, this thread is going to explode and it's going to be near impossible for anyone to get help with it moving at a mile a minute.
My thoughts exactly. I'll prep a thread and release it a few days before launch, probably that Sunday.
That's a really good idea, especially for those who might want to avoid single player spoilers until after the release-week campaign marathon
So is it even going to be possible to discuss the campaign in here?
The new mercenary units look really good, and it's neat they come from different factions, Confederate firebats, UED goliath pilots, the Warpigs etc. I wonder if we'll see any from Umoja or the Kel-Morian Combine?
I was thinking about starting a separate thread for all SP and user maps talk and leave this one for MP only? Too much? Thoughts?
We should probably start a thread for single player talk when the game is released.
I mean, this thread is going to explode and it's going to be near impossible for anyone to get help with it moving at a mile a minute.
Is it though? Pretty much anyone interested in SC2 could have easily gotten in the beta already. Some more people will come for sure but I don't know if it will explode.
And now it's time once more for "Things Terrendos learned playing SC2 tonight!"
1. Just because a Protoss hasn't sent anything to scout doesn't mean he's planning to rush you. Coincidentally, it seems that mass Immortals is not a viable strategy, even in Bronze.
2. Grouping up all your Marines and Marauders at the front of your base when I've already used multiple Psionic Storms on your army is a bad move. Also, if I sneak some Zealots into your base to destroy all your Siege Tanks guarding your front door... replace them.
And now it's time once more for "Things Terrendos learned playing SC2 tonight!"
1. Just because a Protoss hasn't sent anything to scout doesn't mean he's planning to rush you. Coincidentally, it seems that mass Immortals is not a viable strategy, even in Bronze.
2. Grouping up all your Marines and Marauders at the front of your base when I've already used multiple Psionic Storms on your army is a bad move. Also, if I sneak some Zealots into your base to destroy all your Siege Tanks guarding your front door... replace them.
That sounds less like things that you've learned vs. things they hopefully learned.
You never contacted me so we could ride motorcycles. You heartless bastard.
I didn't make it up, everybody pussed out like a bunch of pussies. I currently have google maps open looking to do some sort of road trip, where you wanna go.
Thanks guys, I wasn't trying to be a ponce before but I honestly don't think we'll be able to discuss both aspects of a game this big without two threads.
Derp. Someone gas stole me before I'd even put a cybercore down in PvP.
I think he was trying to psyche me out a bit. I rocked up to his base with his 2 gates and starport and just kept pressure on until he keeled over. Expanded, but didn't need to.
Do we know when the beta is going down? I want to start getting things ready for the end of beta tournament I want to run but I need to make sure I don't schedule it too late.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
just had tvt on scrap station, least favorite match up and map, and I see a barracks floating into my base just as mine is finishing. it lands and starts building an addon which I send my scv to attack til I get a marine out.
opponent says 'rofl' and leaves the game. I guess the idea is to sneak it? I happened to build up in that corner this game. good thing.
I, too, push for two threads. I will be playing a bunch of multi as soon as my preorder comes in so that I can get my fix, but eventually I will want to play single, and I would prefer it not be spoiled for me.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
Creeping, creeping, creeping up Silver leagues, up to about 9 when I checked this morning. I can actually feel myself getting better.
Weird thing though, I've never ever been 'Favoured', it's always my opponent. Although apparently on his screen, sometimes, I am the favoured one. And I get points according to what my screen says, and so does he - presumably if it was working correctly I would only get 3-5 points for a victory when I am favoured but as it is I always get about 12, more if he's favoured / I have Bonus Pool. This must be screwing up the ladders something fierce because everyone's getting more points than they should. Why is this not fixed yet?
This won't be popular but I wanted to shout out to Husky or HD (I don't remember which one!) for his hotkey tutorial video. I've bitched a lot on here that I find them hard to learn, but the single best piece of advice I've ever had was from one of their videos - Pick one hotkey to add per game and play as normal, but force yourself to use that one hotkey. Every few games, add another, and another.
So I started with simply hotkeying my nexus and learning 'E' for probe, after a few games added a Nexus control group and the basic building hotkeys, and so on, and now I've almost got them all. The improvement in my macro has been phenomenal, I almost feel like I can start learning a bit of micro now
I just got hit with 3 void rays and so many fast zealots. so many.
no idea what to do differently since I didn't see it was coming. the stargate must have been hidden but honestly I didn't expect void rays since I saw 3 gateways and the building that gets you to templar archives. can't remember the name.
infuriating. I hate to lose a game where I wasn't even close.
Void Rays + Zealot Legs has been really effective for me recently. Just one or two voidies as needed to keep them on their toes and confuse them but the bulk of the dmg comes from upgraded chargelots. Saw this in a Day9 with WhiteRa and wanted to try it out (although did anyone else find it weird that in that video the strategy never actually worked?)
Spaffy on
ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
Steam: adamjnet
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
yeah it's a great move, very sensible and now I know to look for it.
that's what I get for not watching all the recent day9 eps.
I'm in Bronze but they keep pitting me against diamond and platinum players. I mean, I know I'm around gold/plat, but if this keeps going on they're going to put me in diamond
I don't understand how they can get any meaningful test data from the Leagues in the beta when everyone is always favored. I mean if it actually worked correctly progression through the ranks would be HUGELY different.
As it is now I can loose 90% of my games and still go up quickly in rank.
The favored thing is so people will gain more points faster. They said they wanted to test some league things that way. I imagine they'll change it once the game is released.
Tcheldor on
League of Legends: Sorakanmyworld
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
ZarathustraEckUbermenschnow with stripes!Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
We have spoiler tags. Use them for the singleplayer campaign. Ta DA!
ZarathustraEck on
See you in Town,
-Z
0
ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
So, I had a sneaky fun game.
ZvT, Scrap Station. Usual start for both of us, no proxies. I we both scouted - he saw my pool, I saw his gateway, with a cyber already being built. Figure he was either teching to quick voids, or going for stalkers. A second gate later confirmed the latter.
So, what to do? I can make lings, but if he gets wise and makes Zealots I'm boned. And I wont be able to get lots of Roaches/Hydras without a second base (I was late on gas). So, I took my scout drone, and made a hatchery on his expo. Popped out two drones, make some sunkens, 2 queens. I also started to saturate the minerals.
At this point he attacked me with about a dozen Stalkers, vs my 24 or so Lings. Very one sided, as he survived with 8 or so, and move in to trash my base. I made some lings at my proxy, and we did a nice base trade - except I stil had a base. He wandered around, looking for my other expo, and eventually found it, losing all his Stalkers to two Sunkens with Transfusion support. GG at that point.
I probably could have played a LOT mroe agressively with lings, but I wanted to keep my secret expo secret as long as possible. I'll post the replay later for comments.
Let me give you an example of why we might need two threads:
Stimtokolos: Just lost to a Marine rush. My Zealots couldn't keep up with the constant harassment. T is so OP!
Iowa (replying to Stimtokolos): Did you try walling off your entrance? Terran can't get to you that quick. You must be doing something wrong. Replay?
TurboMan177: Man, does anyone have advice on how to beat mission 7 of the campaign? I keep getting uber raped by the Mutas. Help!
Stimtokolos: I forgot to save it because I was to busy repeatedly hitting the power button on my computer. This is such bullshit. Maybe I'll just switch to Terran for easy wins.
TheStig: Iowa is right. Just block your ramp and you'll be fine.
Stimtokolos: Fuck. I'm gonna go cannon rush the next Terran I play. They gonna play cheesy, then so am I!
Variable: Day9 showed us that when Timmy lost his cool and cheesed he ended up throwing away his chances.
MNC Dover: In case you haven't done so, sign up for the SC2 friend list found in the OP!
s_86: I love all things asian! (posts weird video confirming prior statement)
*new page*
theStig: damn s. you post the weirdest shit.
s_86: where's Dangerisk and Lemming? I need to hug them.
Lemming: Did someone call?
Trus: We've got a tournament about to start soon people!
s_86: Lemmy! Let's craft some stars.
Lemming: When?
s_86: Right now!
theStig: Oh, I want to play too! Getting on now.
Dangerisk: Don't touch me s_86.
s_86: Pssh! Don't pretend like you don't like it.
Iowa: What the hell are we witnessing?
*This goes on for another page*
Terrendos: I just won a close game against Zerg. Mad storms pulled my butt out of the fire. Templars for life.
s_86: Lemming's mom for life.
TurboMan177: Nevermind, I figured it out on my own.
Stimtokolos: OMG! Just lost to a dual Reaper rush in a 2v2!
MNC Dover on
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
Posts
In my experience, this happens all the freaking time, and the difference is really huge.
I'm pretty scared to FE vs toss because yes, once warpgates are up theres probably a nice timing where he will straight crush you with t1 or might just be able to push with a couple immortals and wreck your bunkers.
I thought this exact thing and then started playing random before playing the last big reset. I became interested in protoss (as opposed to zerg who I have been playing since the begining and now) and finally got pretty good with them.. I never got into Terran, and always was horrible with them. I didn't try to learn how to play as Terran at all, and still haven't.
Terran is by far my worst match-up. I complain that they are hard to play against, but I just don't have ANY clue what their high level strategies consist of.
Unless you are coming with mass marine I don't know what to do. Although lately I've just been powering tons of Hydralisks and mutalisks, and that has worked ok.
I was thinking about starting a separate thread for all SP and user maps talk and leave this one for MP only? Too much? Thoughts?
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
We should probably start a thread for single player talk when the game is released.
I mean, this thread is going to explode and it's going to be near impossible for anyone to get help with it moving at a mile a minute.
That's what I thought as well. I've been watching lobby PA games and was surprised by the lack of scouting + FE by a terran vs. toss on steppes of war. People said it was safe, but every game I've played begs to differ.
My thoughts exactly. I'll prep a thread and release it a few days before launch, probably that Sunday.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
That's a really good idea, especially for those who might want to avoid single player spoilers until after the release-week campaign marathon
Is it though? Pretty much anyone interested in SC2 could have easily gotten in the beta already. Some more people will come for sure but I don't know if it will explode.
1. Just because a Protoss hasn't sent anything to scout doesn't mean he's planning to rush you. Coincidentally, it seems that mass Immortals is not a viable strategy, even in Bronze.
2. Grouping up all your Marines and Marauders at the front of your base when I've already used multiple Psionic Storms on your army is a bad move. Also, if I sneak some Zealots into your base to destroy all your Siege Tanks guarding your front door... replace them.
That sounds less like things that you've learned vs. things they hopefully learned.
I didn't make it up, everybody pussed out like a bunch of pussies. I currently have google maps open looking to do some sort of road trip, where you wanna go.
I think he was trying to psyche me out a bit. I rocked up to his base with his 2 gates and starport and just kept pressure on until he keeled over. Expanded, but didn't need to.
US: Nazacra.554
SEA: Nazacra.554
opponent says 'rofl' and leaves the game. I guess the idea is to sneak it? I happened to build up in that corner this game. good thing.
why do zerglings have those horns? wouldn't those hinder the ling from biting? also the attack animation is them using their claws... I'm confused.
Why don't we just try two threads and if one of them doesn't get enough posts we just merge them?
WE DISLIKE CHANGE!
DIE, REFORMIST!
Weird thing though, I've never ever been 'Favoured', it's always my opponent. Although apparently on his screen, sometimes, I am the favoured one. And I get points according to what my screen says, and so does he - presumably if it was working correctly I would only get 3-5 points for a victory when I am favoured but as it is I always get about 12, more if he's favoured / I have Bonus Pool. This must be screwing up the ladders something fierce because everyone's getting more points than they should. Why is this not fixed yet?
This won't be popular but I wanted to shout out to Husky or HD (I don't remember which one!) for his hotkey tutorial video. I've bitched a lot on here that I find them hard to learn, but the single best piece of advice I've ever had was from one of their videos - Pick one hotkey to add per game and play as normal, but force yourself to use that one hotkey. Every few games, add another, and another.
So I started with simply hotkeying my nexus and learning 'E' for probe, after a few games added a Nexus control group and the basic building hotkeys, and so on, and now I've almost got them all. The improvement in my macro has been phenomenal, I almost feel like I can start learning a bit of micro now
Void Rays + Zealot Legs has been really effective for me recently. Just one or two voidies as needed to keep them on their toes and confuse them but the bulk of the dmg comes from upgraded chargelots. Saw this in a Day9 with WhiteRa and wanted to try it out (although did anyone else find it weird that in that video the strategy never actually worked?)
Steam: adamjnet
that's what I get for not watching all the recent day9 eps.
anyway, good win streak tonight so yay for that.
As it is now I can loose 90% of my games and still go up quickly in rank.
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
-Z
ZvT, Scrap Station. Usual start for both of us, no proxies. I we both scouted - he saw my pool, I saw his gateway, with a cyber already being built. Figure he was either teching to quick voids, or going for stalkers. A second gate later confirmed the latter.
So, what to do? I can make lings, but if he gets wise and makes Zealots I'm boned. And I wont be able to get lots of Roaches/Hydras without a second base (I was late on gas). So, I took my scout drone, and made a hatchery on his expo. Popped out two drones, make some sunkens, 2 queens. I also started to saturate the minerals.
At this point he attacked me with about a dozen Stalkers, vs my 24 or so Lings. Very one sided, as he survived with 8 or so, and move in to trash my base. I made some lings at my proxy, and we did a nice base trade - except I stil had a base. He wandered around, looking for my other expo, and eventually found it, losing all his Stalkers to two Sunkens with Transfusion support. GG at that point.
I probably could have played a LOT mroe agressively with lings, but I wanted to keep my secret expo secret as long as possible. I'll post the replay later for comments.
Stimtokolos: Just lost to a Marine rush. My Zealots couldn't keep up with the constant harassment. T is so OP!
Iowa (replying to Stimtokolos): Did you try walling off your entrance? Terran can't get to you that quick. You must be doing something wrong. Replay?
TurboMan177: Man, does anyone have advice on how to beat mission 7 of the campaign? I keep getting uber raped by the Mutas. Help!
Stimtokolos: I forgot to save it because I was to busy repeatedly hitting the power button on my computer. This is such bullshit. Maybe I'll just switch to Terran for easy wins.
TheStig: Iowa is right. Just block your ramp and you'll be fine.
Stimtokolos: Fuck. I'm gonna go cannon rush the next Terran I play. They gonna play cheesy, then so am I!
Variable: Day9 showed us that when Timmy lost his cool and cheesed he ended up throwing away his chances.
MNC Dover: In case you haven't done so, sign up for the SC2 friend list found in the OP!
s_86: I love all things asian! (posts weird video confirming prior statement)
*new page*
theStig: damn s. you post the weirdest shit.
s_86: where's Dangerisk and Lemming? I need to hug them.
Lemming: Did someone call?
Trus: We've got a tournament about to start soon people!
s_86: Lemmy! Let's craft some stars.
Lemming: When?
s_86: Right now!
theStig: Oh, I want to play too! Getting on now.
Dangerisk: Don't touch me s_86.
s_86: Pssh! Don't pretend like you don't like it.
Iowa: What the hell are we witnessing?
*This goes on for another page*
Terrendos: I just won a close game against Zerg. Mad storms pulled my butt out of the fire. Templars for life.
s_86: Lemming's mom for life.
TurboMan177: Nevermind, I figured it out on my own.
Stimtokolos: OMG! Just lost to a dual Reaper rush in a 2v2!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page