You are speaking out of line, sir. I was born the same fucking year Iron Maiden's Number of the Beast came out. One of my earliest childhood memories was watching Commando on VHS.
And yet like a child with a handgrenade you are a bloody mess at interpreting this movie qingu. You're out of your element donnie!
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The last half of Avatar is an action movie. The scene where he blows up the gunship by throwing its own missile into its rotor while hanging from it, causing the bad guy inside to hop into his mech suit and jump out of the ship as it plummets flaming behind him, and then proceeds to knife-fight the mecha suit and stab it through its fucking windshield, is in fact the greatest action sequence in any movie and de facto makes Avatar the greatest action movie, not even counting all the other immensely cool shit that happens in an actiony way.
I dunno if Stallone has ever starred in, or directed an action movie on the level of either Terminator, Aliens, or True Lies. True Lies is probably the closest he's ever gotten, and that's only because it's Cameron's worst film.
Avatar isn't really an action movie, and while the end features a successfully mashed together "ALIENS" and the final half hour of "Return of the Jedi," that half-hour is not enough to vault the film into "Best Action Movie ever."
It's still gotta compete with "Die Hard" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark."
It doesn't win.
And this bar we're using? It's WAY too high up off the floor, considering we're talking about The Expendables. Let's compare Stallone to Stallone here, not Cameron. If this approaches 2008 "Rambo" levels of mayhem, we're good.
This movie is certainly missing Rowdy Roddy Piper.
I'd rather have Keith David and Lance Henricksen. I mean Hot Rod is not looking so hot as of late (he beat cancer but unfortunately he's got more droop then dolly parton).
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I dunno if Stallone has ever starred in, or directed an action movie on the level of either Terminator, Aliens, or True Lies. True Lies is probably the closest he's ever gotten, and that's only because it's Cameron's worst film.
First Blood
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
The last half of Avatar is an action movie. The scene where he blows up the gunship by throwing its own missile into its rotor while hanging from it, causing the bad guy inside to hop into his mech suit and jump out of the ship as it plummets flaming behind him, and then proceeds to knife-fight the mecha suit and stab it through its fucking windshield, is in fact the greatest action sequence in any movie and de facto makes Avatar the greatest action movie, not even counting all the other immensely cool shit that happens in an actiony way.
You'd seriously put that up against Ripley's fight with the Queen in Aliens? Or Indy vs the Swordguy in Raiders?
Die Hard is too 90's of an action movie. Even though it came out in the 80's. It's really different from the classic 80's action movies.
In that it's fucking awesome and not chock full of shit acting, horrible pacing, bad editing and obvious stunt doubles doing clumsy pratfalls in front of balsa-wood explosions? Yeah, you're right.
I'm overstating, obviously, but whether it's 90's or not really doesn't matter considering you're trying to call "Avatar" the best action movie ever. Die Hard is a great action movie, period. Anything that not only straight-up challenges "Raiders'" claim to the throne, but makes a fucking great argument for taking the crown is worth watching, regardless of the time period it came out in.
This movie is certainly missing Rowdy Roddy Piper.
That's only an option if he can spend 20 minutes fighting David Keith.
Especially if everyone else in the cast stands around waiting for the fight to end, tapping their toes and checking their watches.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Thom, I like you, and we agree on a lot of things, but that Indy vs Swordguy thing is overhyped. It's an awesome moment in cinema, but I wouldn't put it in the rankings of "action movie scenes" just like I wouldn't put Han shooting Greedo in that category.
It was a hot day, they were late on the shot, and Harrison Ford had a good idea that he completely stole from his role in Star Wars. It was an accidental success on camera, and I fucking love it, but it's not an action sequence. Badass yes, comedic yes, action, no.
Thom, I like you, and we agree on a lot of things, but that Indy vs Swordguy thing is overhyped. It's an awesome moment in cinema, but I wouldn't put it in the rankings of "action movie scenes" just like I wouldn't put Han shooting Greedo in that category.
It was a hot day, they were late on the shot, and Harrison Ford had a good idea that he completely stole from his role in Star Wars. It was an accidental success on camera, and I fucking love it, but it's not an action sequence. Badass yes, comedic yes, action, no.
It gets a nod for it's sheer level of badass. It's not one of the greatest action scenes of all time, but I'm willing to put it up against the scene Qingu offered and be fairly comfortable that it beats it.
Die Hard is too 90's of an action movie. Even though it came out in the 80's. It's really different from the classic 80's action movies.
I think you need to read this. Die Hard is the pinnacle of 80s action.
Infact, everyone should just read their whole guide.
I don't agree. I think it evolved from 80's action movies, but transcended them and in the process gave rise to a whole new set of tropes that then dominated 90's action movies along with Terminator 2.
For one thing, in Die Hard, he only kills like ten people, and most of them are white people. He does not kill any of them in a heroic fashion; several of them he kills almost accidentally in desperate, strangling, rather realistic combat. Most importantly, the movie does not end in a hand-to-hand battle with the arch-villain.
Also Die Hard does not take place in an exotic location, nor does it feature heavy weaponry. There is never a situation where the hero has free reign to simply murder everyone on screen, which I think has always been a defining feature of 80's action movies.
I think Die Hard is altogether too "realistic" to count as a classic 80's action movie. If aliens were getting high and watching action movies, they would categorize Die Hard with shit like Speed and Speed 2 and all those other movies that rip off Die Hard, not Commando.
Edit: To be clear, I am not saying Die HArd is not rad, because obviously it is; I am saying it should not be used as a template for a movie that seeks to replicate the cheesy fascist jingoism and remarkable levels of unreflective violence of classic 80's action movies.
Now that is an interesting question, action set pieces. I mean I love Die Hard, one of my favorite movies of all time, but its a total package kind of thing, there is no real set piece that it lives and dies by (again because the whole movie is the set piece). I'd almost say that Die Hard is a prototypical 24, in that the movie in contained in a limited time frame with the hero working off of limited resources. You can't really pin down one moment as being super awesome, because they all are.
Now Woo is the master of set pieces, from the Club and docks shoot out in A Better Tomorrow, to the Apartment and House shoot out of A Better Tomorrow 2, to his mangum opus's in The Killer and Hard Boiled, with the Church and Hospital shoot outs.
American movie wise I'd probably have to go with Cobra's opening and Finale, Predator's commandos vs South American evil guys (an example of how to have a large bad ass cast all be in a shot without overriding each other), Matrix Lobby Scene (naturally I mean shit it influenced cinema for the next decade), Blade's opening blood bath, and for a little French Flavor Leon's finale.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I don't agree. I think it evolved from 80's action movies, but transcended them and in the process gave rise to a whole new set of tropes that then dominated 90's action movies along with Terminator 2.
Okay, but what the fuck does any of that theorizing have to do with Avatar being the best action movie ever?
Let's rewind:
"Avatar is the best action movie ever."
"Nah, Die Hard and Raiders of the Lost Ark are better."
"Die Hard is too 90's."
....
You can keep explaining your theories on the evolution of the action movie throughout the late 80's and early 90's, but that doesn't go anywhere towards explaining how, using that rationale, Avatar is a better action movie than anything else that's ever existed. Or even how it's better than Die Hard or Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Or why Expendables needs to even achieve that level of greatness. If it climbs the mighty, cheesy hill that is Commando-level competence, it's a victory. A tacky, gory victory.
Now that is an interesting question, action set pieces. I mean I love Die Hard, one of my favorite movies of all time, but its a total package kind of thing, there is no real set piece that it lives and dies by (again because the whole movie is the set piece). I'd almost say that Die Hard is a prototypical 24, in that the movie in contained in a limited time frame with the hero working off of limited resources. You can't really pin down one moment as being super awesome, because they all are.
Now Woo is the master of set pieces, from the Club and docks shoot out in A Better Tomorrow, to the Apartment and House shoot out of A Better Tomorrow 2, to his mangum opus's in The Killer and Hard Boiled, with the Church and Hospital shoot outs.
American movie wise I'd probably have to go with Cobra's opening and Finale, Predator's commandos vs South American evil guys (an example of how to have a large bad ass cast all be in a shot without overriding each other), Matrix Lobby Scene (naturally I mean shit it influenced cinema for the next decade), Blade's opening blood bath, and for a little French Flavor Leon's finale.
Raiders Of The Lost Ark is, as befitting a movie influenced by '30s movie serials, pretty much a non-stop series of action set pieces.
This is what makes the Indy shoots the fancy sword dude scene so much funnier, since by that point in the movie you're trained to expect a rollercoaster of an action scene and instead get 2 minutes of awesome anticlimax.
Edit: Also, speaking of action set-pieces, the bank robbery from Heat.
I knew I'd forget some movies, I also forgot Dirty Harry's finale vs Scorpio (though not the usual action set piece it really sets the tone for later finale's in the genre, the movie itself being the evolution of the western into a more modern setting).
The Jones Trilogy is all full of action pieces, though I guess in my mind I consider them more Adventure despite them being pretty action packed, especially raiders and lost crusade.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I remember thinking Cobra was the best thing ever put on VHS. Of course I was like 12 at the time.
I wonder how that stood up.
Like a fine wine of action movie goodness. Central character who rebuffs authority, snappy minority side kick, Brigitte Neilsen as a woman in danger, crazy gang based on potential devil worship.
And I totally forgot one of my favorite movies as a kid, Beverly Hills Cop 2, and its finale at the oil field.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
cause i would argue that even a not great jackie chan movie has better action than a lot of the action movies we're talking about.
I wouldn't include them, sub genre, normally you don't see guns/hero doesn't use them, and while Action movies do tend to have scenes of the hero going bare knuckles its more of a last resort/proof of manlyhood, then first line of attack.
Loren for me its a movie where the main character uses his gun as much as he talks, villains are cut and dry and you need at least three one liners.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Since we're talking about action movies, the mention of the Indy shoots the swordsman scene in Raiders made me think of the following scene from the original Assault On Precinct 13:
I knew I'd forget some movies, I also forgot Dirty Harry's finale vs Scorpio (though not the usual action set piece it really sets the tone for later finale's in the genre, the movie itself being the evolution of the western into a more modern setting).
The Jones Trilogy is all full of action pieces, though I guess in my mind I consider them more Adventure despite them being pretty action packed, especially raiders and lost crusade.
Dirty Harry isn't an outgrowth of the Western. It's the crime film picking up on the fear of the urban crime of the times. In a similar film in the Western you'd have the frontier vs civilization conflict. Harry simply rejects the civilized rules and does his own thing. Dirty Harry and Death Wish become the core of the Vengeance film sub-genre of thriller.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
It was space rangers, then cowboys, then soldiers, then cops, then specialized talent sets (spies).
That's the order of hero over the years. In my opinion.
Greetings gentlemen. I was just shaving my beard (which grows thrice daily) with this shard of broken glass from a bottle of single malt scotch I finished off shortly after killing two grizzly bears and a tiger with my bare hands, when a manly moment of intuition linked to my Y chromosome alerted me that there was a most manly of threads regarding a most manly of movies. Thus did I fend off the hordes of beautiful women that naturally flock to me that I might reach this computing terminal I keep in my secret underground lair/study/gym and attach live electrodes directly to my nervous system so that I might post this message directly via electrical pulses caused by flexing my manly muscles to say that I wholeheartedly approve of this motion picture, and would enjoy discussing how awesome and manly it will be with you other fine testosterone fueled chaps.
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And yet like a child with a handgrenade you are a bloody mess at interpreting this movie qingu. You're out of your element donnie!
pleasepaypreacher.net
And if there's room, this guy.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvzlN8jCwn0
Trejo is currently getting his first starring role, and he deserves it
Avatar isn't really an action movie, and while the end features a successfully mashed together "ALIENS" and the final half hour of "Return of the Jedi," that half-hour is not enough to vault the film into "Best Action Movie ever."
It's still gotta compete with "Die Hard" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark."
It doesn't win.
And this bar we're using? It's WAY too high up off the floor, considering we're talking about The Expendables. Let's compare Stallone to Stallone here, not Cameron. If this approaches 2008 "Rambo" levels of mayhem, we're good.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
nah, she beat the crap out of a few psych ward guards too.
she also nearly blew away that black dude.
she was fucking crazy in that movie yo.
That's only an option if he can spend 20 minutes fighting David Keith.
I'd rather have Keith David and Lance Henricksen. I mean Hot Rod is not looking so hot as of late (he beat cancer but unfortunately he's got more droop then dolly parton).
pleasepaypreacher.net
First Blood
You'd seriously put that up against Ripley's fight with the Queen in Aliens? Or Indy vs the Swordguy in Raiders?
I think you need to read this. Die Hard is the pinnacle of 80s action.
Infact, everyone should just read their whole guide.
Come to think of it, where the fuck is Antonio Banderas in this movie?
In that it's fucking awesome and not chock full of shit acting, horrible pacing, bad editing and obvious stunt doubles doing clumsy pratfalls in front of balsa-wood explosions? Yeah, you're right.
I'm overstating, obviously, but whether it's 90's or not really doesn't matter considering you're trying to call "Avatar" the best action movie ever. Die Hard is a great action movie, period. Anything that not only straight-up challenges "Raiders'" claim to the throne, but makes a fucking great argument for taking the crown is worth watching, regardless of the time period it came out in.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
Especially if everyone else in the cast stands around waiting for the fight to end, tapping their toes and checking their watches.
It was a hot day, they were late on the shot, and Harrison Ford had a good idea that he completely stole from his role in Star Wars. It was an accidental success on camera, and I fucking love it, but it's not an action sequence. Badass yes, comedic yes, action, no.
I don't even know what Qingu is saying anymore, I mean Die Hard is too 90s? I mean what the fuck does that even mean?
pleasepaypreacher.net
It gets a nod for it's sheer level of badass. It's not one of the greatest action scenes of all time, but I'm willing to put it up against the scene Qingu offered and be fairly comfortable that it beats it.
For one thing, in Die Hard, he only kills like ten people, and most of them are white people. He does not kill any of them in a heroic fashion; several of them he kills almost accidentally in desperate, strangling, rather realistic combat. Most importantly, the movie does not end in a hand-to-hand battle with the arch-villain.
Also Die Hard does not take place in an exotic location, nor does it feature heavy weaponry. There is never a situation where the hero has free reign to simply murder everyone on screen, which I think has always been a defining feature of 80's action movies.
I think Die Hard is altogether too "realistic" to count as a classic 80's action movie. If aliens were getting high and watching action movies, they would categorize Die Hard with shit like Speed and Speed 2 and all those other movies that rip off Die Hard, not Commando.
Edit: To be clear, I am not saying Die HArd is not rad, because obviously it is; I am saying it should not be used as a template for a movie that seeks to replicate the cheesy fascist jingoism and remarkable levels of unreflective violence of classic 80's action movies.
sometimes you even have to escape from there
Especially now, when most "on location" shots of LA are actually Vancouver.
[strike]Wut?[/strike]
I read "exclude" as "include". Derp.
Now Woo is the master of set pieces, from the Club and docks shoot out in A Better Tomorrow, to the Apartment and House shoot out of A Better Tomorrow 2, to his mangum opus's in The Killer and Hard Boiled, with the Church and Hospital shoot outs.
American movie wise I'd probably have to go with Cobra's opening and Finale, Predator's commandos vs South American evil guys (an example of how to have a large bad ass cast all be in a shot without overriding each other), Matrix Lobby Scene (naturally I mean shit it influenced cinema for the next decade), Blade's opening blood bath, and for a little French Flavor Leon's finale.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Okay, but what the fuck does any of that theorizing have to do with Avatar being the best action movie ever?
Let's rewind:
"Avatar is the best action movie ever."
"Nah, Die Hard and Raiders of the Lost Ark are better."
"Die Hard is too 90's."
....
You can keep explaining your theories on the evolution of the action movie throughout the late 80's and early 90's, but that doesn't go anywhere towards explaining how, using that rationale, Avatar is a better action movie than anything else that's ever existed. Or even how it's better than Die Hard or Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Or why Expendables needs to even achieve that level of greatness. If it climbs the mighty, cheesy hill that is Commando-level competence, it's a victory. A tacky, gory victory.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
Raiders Of The Lost Ark is, as befitting a movie influenced by '30s movie serials, pretty much a non-stop series of action set pieces.
This is what makes the Indy shoots the fancy sword dude scene so much funnier, since by that point in the movie you're trained to expect a rollercoaster of an action scene and instead get 2 minutes of awesome anticlimax.
Edit: Also, speaking of action set-pieces, the bank robbery from Heat.
I wonder how that stood up.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The Jones Trilogy is all full of action pieces, though I guess in my mind I consider them more Adventure despite them being pretty action packed, especially raiders and lost crusade.
pleasepaypreacher.net
cause i would argue that even a not great jackie chan movie has better action than a lot of the action movies we're talking about.
Like a fine wine of action movie goodness. Central character who rebuffs authority, snappy minority side kick, Brigitte Neilsen as a woman in danger, crazy gang based on potential devil worship.
And I totally forgot one of my favorite movies as a kid, Beverly Hills Cop 2, and its finale at the oil field.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I wouldn't include them, sub genre, normally you don't see guns/hero doesn't use them, and while Action movies do tend to have scenes of the hero going bare knuckles its more of a last resort/proof of manlyhood, then first line of attack.
Loren for me its a movie where the main character uses his gun as much as he talks, villains are cut and dry and you need at least three one liners.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Dirty Harry isn't an outgrowth of the Western. It's the crime film picking up on the fear of the urban crime of the times. In a similar film in the Western you'd have the frontier vs civilization conflict. Harry simply rejects the civilized rules and does his own thing. Dirty Harry and Death Wish become the core of the Vengeance film sub-genre of thriller.
That's the order of hero over the years. In my opinion.