Another thing that I think makes Zombies great gamer fuel is that zombies represent an enemy that heavily rewards brains over brawn. Taking down an alien invasion or fighting nazis or stopping crime or something is most certainly best left to the heavily muscled man in a uniform/cape/suit of space marine armor and is, therefore, probably not someone most gamers can see themselves as. However, who routinely survives zombie hordes? It's not body builders or dudes in suits made of super metal but the nerd down the street whose smart enough to plan ahead and board up his house and aim for the head. It's someone that most stereotypical games can relate to, or perhaps even see themselves as doing if they were thrust into a similar situation.
They are a logistical and martial challenge that is interesting, while actual war these days has become complicated, technological, political and morally challenging. That is, uninteresting.
I've spent 10 minutes trying to figure out how this could be uninteresting.
I find zombies boring in both film and game form, but clearly I'm in the minority here.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Also, I'd just like to say that if there ever was a game design decision that should be punished with a severe lashing it's putting zombies in sci-fi and fantasy games. We could be fighting something imaginative, something we've never seen before: a creature born from the heart of the cosmos, a bloodthirsty race of reptilian mice, a steam-powered clockwork mech from beyond the veil of time and reality armed with a cannon that shoots complacency... and we get to fight zombies. Mass Effect was particularly bad about it, they made us fight tech zombies and plant zombies.
Zombies are great when they're used properly (Left 4 Dead), but when you shoehorn them into anything and everything they become incredibly lame.
Also, I'd just like to say that if there ever was a game design decision that should be punished with a severe lashing it's putting zombies in sci-fi and fantasy games. We could be fighting something imaginative, something we've never seen before: a creature born from the heart of the cosmos, a bloodthirsty race of reptilian mice, a steam-powered clockwork mech from beyond the veil of time and reality armed with a cannon that shoots complacency... and we get to fight zombies. Mass Effect was particularly bad about it, they made us fight tech zombies and plant zombies.
Zombies are great when they're used properly (Left 4 Dead), but when you shoehorn them into anything and everything they become incredibly lame.
To some extent you're right.
I felt that they were well handled in the Mass Effect series. They weren't the main enemy, and there was a reason for why they existed. The husks were human biomass reclaimed by the Geth (and later the Harvesters) used to fight for them. They weren't zombies in the typical 'have a virus' or 'magical' vein.
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
Also, I'd just like to say that if there ever was a game design decision that should be punished with a severe lashing it's putting zombies in sci-fi and fantasy games. We could be fighting something imaginative, something we've never seen before: a creature born from the heart of the cosmos, a bloodthirsty race of reptilian mice, a steam-powered clockwork mech from beyond the veil of time and reality armed with a cannon that shoots complacency... and we get to fight zombies. Mass Effect was particularly bad about it, they made us fight tech zombies and plant zombies.
Zombies are great when they're used properly (Left 4 Dead), but when you shoehorn them into anything and everything they become incredibly lame.
To some extent you're right.
I felt that they were well handled in the Mass Effect series. They weren't the main enemy, and there was a reason for why they existed. The husks were human biomass reclaimed by the Geth (and later the Harvesters) used to fight for them. They weren't zombies in the typical 'have a virus' or 'magical' vein.
Yeah, zombies are one of the applications of rogue nanotechnology that both makes sense and is reasonably possible to fight against. Grey goo is a pain, and true shapeshifters are even worse if they're handled correctly.
Island of Dr.Ned was awesome. Considering the game already had psychos which are like fast-moving zombies. It was very tongue-in-cheek about the whole thing which is why it worked for me in a genre that is saturated in super serious zombie survival games.
And Mass Effect handled it well. Both husks and the Thorian thing work well stylistically. I'm not sure I *like* cannon fodder enemies like that though.
In shooters, where there are intelligent enemies, the shootouts can get old: cover-based shootouts over and over - and the PC is always better than the NPCs, so you always win. However, throwing a screaming maniac or flailing zombie at you can flush you out of cover and mix it up a bit by bringing the fight right up to the player's face.
I will say that Half-life was the first game I played where I remember being flushed out effectively. Not zombies, just marines flanking and tossing grenades intelligently. But then you'd charge them and they run into a wall while you shot them in the head... the system wasn't perfect yet. That reminds me: Half-life had head crabs/scarecrows.
The love affair with zombies in video games has to do with a design problem that plagues any game that has guns in it: How do you make it believable that one guy takes on many. Most games fail miserably at this. In half-life 2 you fight loads of combine yet you magically survive. In Uncharted you take on hordes of armored soldiers and survive. The only way this happens is if your opponents are complete morons which wrecks the narrative. Using zombies however allows you to put in stupid enemies that are also weaker than you (can't use tools/guns) with out breaking the immersion in the events. In other words, they create a plausible scenario for the 1 vs. Many fantasy that people enjoy while keeping the protagonist human.
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The love affair with zombies in video games has to do with a design problem that plagues any game that has guns in it: How do you make it believable that one guy takes on many. Most games fail miserably at this. In half-life 2 you fight loads of combine yet you magically survive. In Uncharted you take on hordes of armored soldiers and survive. The only way this happens is if your opponents are complete morons which wrecks the narrative. Using zombies however allows you to put in stupid enemies that are also weaker than you (can't use tools/guns) with out breaking the immersion in the events. In other words, they create a plausible scenario for the 1 vs. Many fantasy that people enjoy while keeping the protagonist human.
It's more plausible
But not as enjoyable
Taking out zombies or not-zombies in the Resident Evil series does not feel satisfying because, well, they're slow and dumb
Taking out a group of mercenaries in Uncharted feels awesome
They done goofed. They can't even die properly, which is an embarrassment considering it is an art humanity has had a lot of training in. It ain't that hard, guys.
Well, if you look at them in a certain way, zombies represent the mindless mall faring consumer masses of society. They give the player/hero of the story an excuse to kill them without remorse. The heroes do not want to integrate with the masses, seeing their consumerism and anti-intellectualism as infectious. Zombie stories can be seen as 'revenge' porn for douchebags who think they're superior to common folk.
You can see the 'zombie apocalypse preparedness movement', even when non-serious, as just as sickening as any other apocalyptic preparedness movement. A significant portion of civilization doesn't just turn hostile on itself overnight. On the other hand, there is a real danger that a critical portion of people being paranoid about protecting 'your own' at the expense of others, thinking every resource is limited, will actually call the fears they fear into existence, due to vigilantism and hoarding.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
I remember one developer talking about liking zombies because they were easy. They just dial the AI way down and no one can complain that the enemies are stupid.
That said, I'd love an Oblivion style game with zombies; open world RPG, zombie apocalypse, maybe a pocket or two of human civilization left... basically the Zombie Survival Guide/World War Z RPG.
I remember one developer talking about liking zombies because they were easy. They just dial the AI way down and no one can complain that the enemies are stupid.
That said, I'd love an Oblivion style game with zombies; open world RPG, zombie apocalypse, maybe a pocket or two of human civilization left... basically the Zombie Survival Guide/World War Z RPG.
There is a zombie mod for oblivion, which is the best zombie mod ever IMO.
Zombies just work perfect for video games because they are inherently evil. You can kill 10,000 zombies and feel good about it, whereas the same isn't always as true with simulated humans.
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I think people are also forgetting that we are at a point now where game systems can really utilitze a giant horde of enemies on screen at once. The hardware is at a level where game developers can do justice to a giant mob of zombies.
A game like dead rising or left 4 dead just couldnt be done on older systems with out getting rid of what makes them good.
I remember one developer talking about liking zombies because they were easy. They just dial the AI way down and no one can complain that the enemies are stupid.
That said, I'd love an Oblivion style game with zombies; open world RPG, zombie apocalypse, maybe a pocket or two of human civilization left... basically the Zombie Survival Guide/World War Z RPG.
Isn't that just Fallout 3? Mutants are basically zombies.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
yeah but in fallout 3, the objective isn't to survive as long as possible in a seemingly no win situation. In fact I think Fallout completely fails to communicate a sense of urgency. While playing it never really sunk in that North America (at least) was completely destroyed. Sure I'm walking around in a wasteland fighting mutants but simply living seems just as easy as it would be before the blast.
I say all of the above makes for great videogames. In fact, I think the entire package is pretty alluring to a lot of modern people - men in particular.
I recently saw a documentary or read an article, cant remember which, which touched on zombies in movies. Basically reasoned that the zombie apocalypse theme sees alot of attention because of how the setting appeals to Tribalism.
Its pretty much the closest thing to a simple/pure you-vs-them that we can get. I do love me a coop/survival/onslaught mode, after all.
I made a thread a year or two back complaining about zombie-like enemies shoehorned into otherwise nifty games, among other things. Unfortunately cardboard tube made a similar thread like a week later complaining about the same things, and my thread was relegated to the forgotten realm.
Anyways, what I'm getting at is that I love games built from the ground up to deal with zombies, like RE and L4D, but I cannot stand zombies thrown in because the designers ran out of creative ideas for enemies or scenarios. Plot-be-damned, the Flood in Halo are boring as shit to fight and their levels are usually dark windy bullshit that stand in stark contrast to me shooting aliens while driving a tank through a futuristic city.
Basically, whenever a game makes me fight zombies and spiders in a cave when I should be doing more of what is actually good and fun in the game, I instantly want to just turn the game off. Even worse when it truly is a game I love in every other meaningful way (VtMB, Chronicles of Riddick). But then there are also a few games that really smash the idea out of the park (Stalker).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that zombies represent to me everything that is boring and unimaginative about videogames...except in the games where they don't.
Taps into the inner sociopath. Someone here had a long rant about this in D&D who's name I forget, but especially in the armageddon style backdrop. It takes away all responsibility one might see as holding you down. You don’t have to worry about those bullies or tax collectors, and all you need to do is kill the shit out of everything which for all intents and purposes looks human, proving what a real man ™, you are. You can see this clearly exemplified in the WWZ books/Zombie survival guide and general fandom, alongside this feeling of superiority compared to those worthless sheeple.
I think if they’re lone enemies Resident Evil style, where they play up the horror, and down the collapse of civilisation they can be okay, lacking the squicker undertones.
And honestly, 'normal' zombies aren't going to take down civilization. They need an 'outside' source of both intelligence and muscle to do anything, and even then they're mostly just padding to make the things that matter harder to kill. Imagine, say, the virus in Prototype but without any Hunters. Utterly screwed.
Both Kastanj and Remington are very correct. Whats better than facing an unbeatable hoard of the most horrific terror (that doesn't actually exist... yet) with a chainsaw or lawn-mower? Or even a stuffed animal?
For me, the excitement comes from the forced adaptability to a new enemy, yet somehow a very real enemy. Zombies can be in the form of a stranger or a loved one, bringing the terror even higher. The tough decisions like killing an infected-but-still-human-friend or leaving behind your team on Left 4 Dead are the icing on the cake.
Basically, zombies put you in situations that really stretch the limits of the human soul.
Well said, especially the stranger or a loved one part. Games are about conflicts, and I think this takes conflict to an extreme.
I don't totally understand why, but it's my sense that women kinda like zombies as a theme in a game. The RE games have always had a strong female presence in the fanbase, and I knew multiple women who thought Left4Dead was pretty great.
Just speculating, but I'd say that it's a real world game setting without any of the moral queasiness of war games, or the total geekiness of sci fi/fantasy.
I have yet to see a zombie, robot, ninja, space marine game in a fantasy World War 2 setting.
There was a strategy RPG for the 360 with werewolves, vampires, and lots of other crazy shit set in WW2. I forget the name of it though, it looked pretty awesome but turned out to just be mediocre.
Operation Darkness (Name didn't sound right to me but google confirms it. Good game but took way too long to play)
They made a game out of the book? Did they have the world war 2 battle against Muslims on flying carpets summoning a djinn?
I remember one developer talking about liking zombies because they were easy. They just dial the AI way down and no one can complain that the enemies are stupid.
That said, I'd love an Oblivion style game with zombies; open world RPG, zombie apocalypse, maybe a pocket or two of human civilization left... basically the Zombie Survival Guide/World War Z RPG.
Isn't that just Fallout 3? Mutants are basically zombies.
I'm not sure about that. Zombies IMO do not think or reason, nor do they retain any social mentality.
I thought the mutants in Fallout 3 still live in their own society as a group?
Has there ever been a game in the "classic" zombie theme? Like, slow Romero zombies, just trying to survive. Maybe hole up in a house somewhere. And have to deal with other people cracking up.
It seems like it would make the best RPG ever, and it's never been done. The only two I can think of are Fort Zombie, which is bad, and the one from Double Bear, which will never come out.
I know it's been said about RE1, and I agree but one thing that a classic zombie movie always had was a constant creeping fear - you were always being followed. RE3 actually captured that for me because you were constantly hounded from one screen to the next by one of the baddies. Yeah, you could kill him, but there was another one coming after him soon.
Essentially a survival horror game has to encourage you to run rather than fight in order to capture that feeling.
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Don't forget robots on that list, everyone loves killing robots.
I've spent 10 minutes trying to figure out how this could be uninteresting.
I find zombies boring in both film and game form, but clearly I'm in the minority here.
Oversaturation.
Also, I'd just like to say that if there ever was a game design decision that should be punished with a severe lashing it's putting zombies in sci-fi and fantasy games. We could be fighting something imaginative, something we've never seen before: a creature born from the heart of the cosmos, a bloodthirsty race of reptilian mice, a steam-powered clockwork mech from beyond the veil of time and reality armed with a cannon that shoots complacency... and we get to fight zombies. Mass Effect was particularly bad about it, they made us fight tech zombies and plant zombies.
Zombies are great when they're used properly (Left 4 Dead), but when you shoehorn them into anything and everything they become incredibly lame.
To some extent you're right.
I felt that they were well handled in the Mass Effect series. They weren't the main enemy, and there was a reason for why they existed. The husks were human biomass reclaimed by the Geth (and later the Harvesters) used to fight for them. They weren't zombies in the typical 'have a virus' or 'magical' vein.
Yeah, zombies are one of the applications of rogue nanotechnology that both makes sense and is reasonably possible to fight against. Grey goo is a pain, and true shapeshifters are even worse if they're handled correctly.
And Mass Effect handled it well. Both husks and the Thorian thing work well stylistically. I'm not sure I *like* cannon fodder enemies like that though.
In shooters, where there are intelligent enemies, the shootouts can get old: cover-based shootouts over and over - and the PC is always better than the NPCs, so you always win. However, throwing a screaming maniac or flailing zombie at you can flush you out of cover and mix it up a bit by bringing the fight right up to the player's face.
I will say that Half-life was the first game I played where I remember being flushed out effectively. Not zombies, just marines flanking and tossing grenades intelligently. But then you'd charge them and they run into a wall while you shot them in the head... the system wasn't perfect yet. That reminds me: Half-life had head crabs/scarecrows.
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It's more plausible
But not as enjoyable
Taking out zombies or not-zombies in the Resident Evil series does not feel satisfying because, well, they're slow and dumb
Taking out a group of mercenaries in Uncharted feels awesome
I am all target markets at once
They're dead. They're all messed up.
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Well, if you look at them in a certain way, zombies represent the mindless mall faring consumer masses of society. They give the player/hero of the story an excuse to kill them without remorse. The heroes do not want to integrate with the masses, seeing their consumerism and anti-intellectualism as infectious. Zombie stories can be seen as 'revenge' porn for douchebags who think they're superior to common folk.
You can see the 'zombie apocalypse preparedness movement', even when non-serious, as just as sickening as any other apocalyptic preparedness movement. A significant portion of civilization doesn't just turn hostile on itself overnight. On the other hand, there is a real danger that a critical portion of people being paranoid about protecting 'your own' at the expense of others, thinking every resource is limited, will actually call the fears they fear into existence, due to vigilantism and hoarding.
That said, I'd love an Oblivion style game with zombies; open world RPG, zombie apocalypse, maybe a pocket or two of human civilization left... basically the Zombie Survival Guide/World War Z RPG.
There is a zombie mod for oblivion, which is the best zombie mod ever IMO.
28 Days and a Bit 2 It's called.
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A game like dead rising or left 4 dead just couldnt be done on older systems with out getting rid of what makes them good.
I never asked for this!
Isn't that just Fallout 3? Mutants are basically zombies.
I recently saw a documentary or read an article, cant remember which, which touched on zombies in movies. Basically reasoned that the zombie apocalypse theme sees alot of attention because of how the setting appeals to Tribalism.
Its pretty much the closest thing to a simple/pure you-vs-them that we can get. I do love me a coop/survival/onslaught mode, after all.
Anyways, what I'm getting at is that I love games built from the ground up to deal with zombies, like RE and L4D, but I cannot stand zombies thrown in because the designers ran out of creative ideas for enemies or scenarios. Plot-be-damned, the Flood in Halo are boring as shit to fight and their levels are usually dark windy bullshit that stand in stark contrast to me shooting aliens while driving a tank through a futuristic city.
Basically, whenever a game makes me fight zombies and spiders in a cave when I should be doing more of what is actually good and fun in the game, I instantly want to just turn the game off. Even worse when it truly is a game I love in every other meaningful way (VtMB, Chronicles of Riddick). But then there are also a few games that really smash the idea out of the park (Stalker).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that zombies represent to me everything that is boring and unimaginative about videogames...except in the games where they don't.
I think if they’re lone enemies Resident Evil style, where they play up the horror, and down the collapse of civilisation they can be okay, lacking the squicker undertones.
Well said, especially the stranger or a loved one part. Games are about conflicts, and I think this takes conflict to an extreme.
There's a game on the iPhone called "Infect them All" which you play as the zombie, and your goal is, well, Infect them All
Just speculating, but I'd say that it's a real world game setting without any of the moral queasiness of war games, or the total geekiness of sci fi/fantasy.
That game is cute IMO, but not your regular Zombie type of games
They made a game out of the book? Did they have the world war 2 battle against Muslims on flying carpets summoning a djinn?
I was wrong, it was Operation Chaos
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Monkey Zombies!
I'm not sure about that. Zombies IMO do not think or reason, nor do they retain any social mentality.
I thought the mutants in Fallout 3 still live in their own society as a group?
I know it's been said about RE1, and I agree but one thing that a classic zombie movie always had was a constant creeping fear - you were always being followed. RE3 actually captured that for me because you were constantly hounded from one screen to the next by one of the baddies. Yeah, you could kill him, but there was another one coming after him soon.
Essentially a survival horror game has to encourage you to run rather than fight in order to capture that feeling.
Really interesting read too.