Who walks up to seige tanks when all the cool kids can tunnel.
i thought that tunneling was limited to being on creep?
speaking of which, i think that the massive difference in zerg units on creep vs. off creep is the game mechanic that broke zerg for me. i have to spooge creep everywhere to have effective units, and the zerg used to be the blitzkrieg race, where massing and rushing was an extremely viable strategy. Now you have to spooge spooge spooge, attack.
I'm a protoss player primarily, and has anyone really used gateways much in game? They seem too limited for any sort of useful purpose.
what
I...think what he's asking is if there is any reason not to upgrade a gateway to a warp gate.
...since I don't play Protoss, I don't really know. I can tell you how much Ryougi wrecks my shit when she gets a proxy pylon going with 3-4 warp gates, though.
Every match.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
Who walks up to seige tanks when all the cool kids can tunnel.
i thought that tunneling was limited to being on creep?
speaking of which, i think that the massive difference in zerg units on creep vs. off creep is the game mechanic that broke zerg for me. i have to spooge creep everywhere to have effective units, and the zerg used to be the blitzkrieg race, where massing and rushing was an extremely viable strategy. Now you have to spooge spooge spooge, attack.
So that lobby match last night where I lost to the MMM without building hydras, and having infinity mutas? Definitely did almost the same thing, but after about 8 mutas I tech switched to Hydras.
His MMM disintegrated. And he had cut some to get crazy vikings. Which would've been awesome if I kept pumping Mutas. Not so much with hydras/speedlings/banelings.
Of course, I did lose a lot of Hydras. But I was at 200/200 with 4 bases because he decided not to expand 'till he was mined out and never attacked while I was ready to force a contain so I could just keep pumping more.
It would seem like gateways are easier to macro since you don't need to target places for units to warp in, just queue them up.
course I have an obsession with cracklings so gateway units are np
Well you should try and queue units up as little as physically possible, so really that's kind of a crutch.
we had this conversation in mumble last night too. I don't mean queue up 5 zealots at one gameway, I mean it's easier to hit my hotkey for gateways and start making 5 zealots while still being able to see what is going on in another place in the map than it is to go back to your pylon and target in the warps. Queueing is useful when units are about to finish since it minimizes the downtime of your buildings.
Jars on
0
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I'm a protoss player primarily, and has anyone really used gateways much in game? They seem too limited for any sort of useful purpose.
what
I...think what he's asking is if there is any reason not to upgrade a gateway to a warp gate.
...since I don't play Protoss, I don't really know. I can tell you how much Ryougi wrecks my shit when she gets a proxy pylon going with 3-4 warp gates, though.
Every match.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
For a rather minimal cost you can transport your warp gate units to any pylon on the battlefield. It is a huge feature of the protoss army and pretty key to reinforcing your units and keeping up the offensive.
I'm not in any kind of position skill-wise to say "you're doing it wrong" if you don't build warp gates. But I've never seen the top tier players not do it. What you do have to be careful of when you are warping in units is that they take a shitload of extra damage and are easily killed if you aren't careful about placement.
It would seem like gateways are easier to macro since you don't need to target places for units to warp in, just queue them up.
course I have an obsession with cracklings so gateway units are np
Well you should try and queue units up as little as physically possible, so really that's kind of a crutch.
we had this conversation in mumble last night too. I don't mean queue up 5 zealots at one gameway, I mean it's easier to hit my hotkey for gateways and start making 5 zealots while still being able to see what is going on in another place in the map than it is to go back to your pylon and target in the warps. Queueing is useful when units are about to finish since it minimizes the downtime of your buildings.
That's true, but since warpgates reduce training times by 5(10?)s per unit, I would say that the advantage of easier macro is far outweighed by the superior but more difficult macro of the warp gate.
I'm a protoss player primarily, and has anyone really used gateways much in game? They seem too limited for any sort of useful purpose.
what
I...think what he's asking is if there is any reason not to upgrade a gateway to a warp gate.
...since I don't play Protoss, I don't really know. I can tell you how much Ryougi wrecks my shit when she gets a proxy pylon going with 3-4 warp gates, though.
Every match.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
For a rather minimal cost you can transport your warp gate units to any pylon on the battlefield. It is a huge feature of the protoss army and pretty key to reinforcing your units and keeping up the offensive.
I'm not in any kind of position skill-wise to say "you're doing it wrong" if you don't build warp gates. But I've never seen the top tier players not do it. What you do have to be careful of when you are warping in units is that they take a shitload of extra damage and are easily killed if you aren't careful about placement.
So they can take damage while they warp in? So best to warp to the back/mid battlefield and move them in unless under fire from ranged attackers?
I'll have to give them a shot tonight and see if I can change up my mindset to work with the new idea. It's crazy how simple (and bad) falling into my old habits has been, which is killing me with all the differences and new units. I do like that I can use transports to easily make a warp spot though.
ArcSyn on
0
Madpandasuburbs west of chicagoRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
They can be easily killed while warping in.
Ideally the opponent should not see them being warped in.
edit: that reminds me, does chrono boosting cut down on the cooldown of warp gates?
I'm a protoss player primarily, and has anyone really used gateways much in game? They seem too limited for any sort of useful purpose.
what
I...think what he's asking is if there is any reason not to upgrade a gateway to a warp gate.
...since I don't play Protoss, I don't really know. I can tell you how much Ryougi wrecks my shit when she gets a proxy pylon going with 3-4 warp gates, though.
Every match.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
For a rather minimal cost you can transport your warp gate units to any pylon on the battlefield. It is a huge feature of the protoss army and pretty key to reinforcing your units and keeping up the offensive.
I'm not in any kind of position skill-wise to say "you're doing it wrong" if you don't build warp gates. But I've never seen the top tier players not do it. What you do have to be careful of when you are warping in units is that they take a shitload of extra damage and are easily killed if you aren't careful about placement.
So they can take damage while they warp in? So best to warp to the back/mid battlefield and move them in unless under fire from ranged attackers?
I'll have to give them a shot tonight and see if I can change up my mindset to work with the new idea. It's crazy how simple (and bad) falling into my old habits has been, which is killing me with all the differences and new units. I do like that I can use transports to easily make a warp spot though.
there are a lot of downside to warping in units with warpgates. they warp in over 5 seconds, completely vulnerable, and then the warpgate has an additional cooldown of 10s to be able to produce another unit. useful in certain sittuations, but I would say that a mothership warp would be another way of quick movement.
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
ArcSyn, if you're interested, watch some Day9 vids. He is extremely good at explaining strategy, and he even has a "back to basics" that's been posted a bunch in this thread that will help you improve.
I am a pretty terrible player, but watching his stuff has improved my play immensely. I still make tons of mistakes, but I can see where I went wrong and try and correct that mistake.
I'm a protoss player primarily, and has anyone really used gateways much in game? They seem too limited for any sort of useful purpose.
what
I...think what he's asking is if there is any reason not to upgrade a gateway to a warp gate.
...since I don't play Protoss, I don't really know. I can tell you how much Ryougi wrecks my shit when she gets a proxy pylon going with 3-4 warp gates, though.
Every match.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
For a rather minimal cost you can transport your warp gate units to any pylon on the battlefield. It is a huge feature of the protoss army and pretty key to reinforcing your units and keeping up the offensive.
I'm not in any kind of position skill-wise to say "you're doing it wrong" if you don't build warp gates. But I've never seen the top tier players not do it. What you do have to be careful of when you are warping in units is that they take a shitload of extra damage and are easily killed if you aren't careful about placement.
So they can take damage while they warp in? So best to warp to the back/mid battlefield and move them in unless under fire from ranged attackers?
I'll have to give them a shot tonight and see if I can change up my mindset to work with the new idea. It's crazy how simple (and bad) falling into my old habits has been, which is killing me with all the differences and new units. I do like that I can use transports to easily make a warp spot though.
there are a lot of downside to warping in units with warpgates. they warp in over 5 seconds, completely vulnerable, and then the warpgate has an additional cooldown of 10s to be able to produce another unit. useful in certain sittuations, but I would say that a mothership warp would be another way of quick movement.
Actually, with the warpgate, your units are made instantly, but take 5s to warp in. And immediately after you select their location, your warpgate goes on cooldown for that unit's training time, minus 10s i believe. So basically you are training your units in 10 less seconds than with gateways.
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
I'm a protoss player primarily, and has anyone really used gateways much in game? They seem too limited for any sort of useful purpose.
what
I...think what he's asking is if there is any reason not to upgrade a gateway to a warp gate.
...since I don't play Protoss, I don't really know. I can tell you how much Ryougi wrecks my shit when she gets a proxy pylon going with 3-4 warp gates, though.
Every match.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
For a rather minimal cost you can transport your warp gate units to any pylon on the battlefield. It is a huge feature of the protoss army and pretty key to reinforcing your units and keeping up the offensive.
I'm not in any kind of position skill-wise to say "you're doing it wrong" if you don't build warp gates. But I've never seen the top tier players not do it. What you do have to be careful of when you are warping in units is that they take a shitload of extra damage and are easily killed if you aren't careful about placement.
So they can take damage while they warp in? So best to warp to the back/mid battlefield and move them in unless under fire from ranged attackers?
I'll have to give them a shot tonight and see if I can change up my mindset to work with the new idea. It's crazy how simple (and bad) falling into my old habits has been, which is killing me with all the differences and new units. I do like that I can use transports to easily make a warp spot though.
there are a lot of downside to warping in units with warpgates. they warp in over 5 seconds, completely vulnerable, and then the warpgate has an additional cooldown of 10s to be able to produce another unit. useful in certain sittuations, but I would say that a mothership warp would be another way of quick movement.
Actually, with the warpgate, your units are made instantly, but take 5s to warp in. And immediately after you select their location, your warpgate goes on cooldown for that unit's training time, minus 10s i believe. So basically you are training your units in 10 less seconds than with gateways.
you're right, i just looked.
so, the big downside is the complete vulnerability for 5s, but it actually speeds up production. That's pretty powerful if you can safely warp them in. Now that I understand it better, its seems so powerful, that I can see a nerf coming....
so, the big downside is the complete vulnerability for 5s, but it actually speeds up production. That's pretty powerful if you can safely warp them in. Now that I understand it better, its seems so powerful, that I can see a nerf coming....
Not too likely. I can't remember a time when the functionality of warpgates changed in any way during the beta. It is powerful enough that you pretty much always want it, cheap enough that it's basically free, and annoying enough that you never want your opponent to have it, but the protoss really need it to be competitive.
It's been like that for such a long time and it's such a staple of the SC2 protoss tactics that I don't see them changing it too much, yes it's powerful but it's not unbalanced powerful, the other races have other things to make up for it.
proxy pylons will normally be protected by your current army, which will stand between your opponent's base and the pylon while you warp in more dudes.
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
Slightly snappier transfuses probable would've made that a little better(that first queen death was a little eh for me, as was losing the lair), and if I see void rays and have the money for it I'll often throw a pair of spore crawlers in my mineral lines. You did that on your main but I didn't see any at the natural.
But mostly yeah, queens with transfuses, spore crawlers, and hydras.
why do you want warpgates removed? they don't give a massive advantage to the protoss
i mean, quicker reinforcements with a proxy pylon is a little hard to fight against, but each race has their own unique production quirks (reactors for terran, larva for zerg, warpgates for protoss, etc)
Yeah, I played a 1on1 as toss aginst a fellow PAer with some observers and the first thing they told me after i lost was to use warp gates.
I did so.
And I feel twice as competent with toss. Honestly, expanding just happens naturally as an agressive move rather then economic. I build pylons at what i consider the front line, usually where I would build cannons at a new expansion,a nd then safely begin warping units there. My expansions just spring up naturally behind my front line because I do not feel like I have to baby sit them.
Also, is it 10 seconds less then your normal build time, or 10 seconds total? It doesnt seem to matter what I warp in, the cooldown seems to be the same. I could be wrong though. Either way, its like an instant version of setting waypoints for my units so I love it. Another thing is, it keeps my food high, since im building pylons to be able to warp units in.
Really, there is so much that happens with Toss naturally that you have to worry about with terran. Expanding and building supply depots is a chore that I have to remember in order not to screw myself with terran. With toss, it all just...happens.
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
Slightly snappier transfuses probable would've made that a little better(that first queen death was a little eh for me, as was losing the lair), and if I see void rays and have the money for it I'll often throw a pair of spore crawlers in my mineral lines. You did that on your main but I didn't see any at the natural.
But mostly yeah, queens with transfuses, spore crawlers, and hydras.
Yeah I was having some targeting issues with that first queen fight, and when the lair went down I just didn't know that all those hydras were up...noob mistakes on my part, but I guess that's why I'm not platinum :P
I also watched Day9's analysis of going mass Queens in ZvZ, and I must say I'm intrigued. I will have to try that out sometime.
Well when I get an iPhone I'll be sure to pick it up.
EDIT: @Spawnbroker: Is the number of account hijackings for WoW really that much bigger than it is for something like Steam? Or is it just more sophisticated or what?
It's like a dollar plus whatever it costs for you download stuff on almost any phone, so like 3 bucks max. You don't need an iPhone.
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
A few things:
Getting 10 drones before your OL gives you a slightly better economy than 9. (I have actually tested this a few times)
15 hatch isn't that good, 14 hatch 13 pool is the ideal for super fast expand, but really steppes of war is too small to do it safely.
Your main and natural were never saturated, you could have easily had double the production if you did.
You could have spotted that starport a lot sooner by having lings run around his base (his ramp wasn't blocked for most the ame), or just by having OLs sitting around on the edges.
You got a lot of roaches at the start but never really used them, with constant scouting you could have determined if your spines/lings were enough to handle his zealots and then just pump drones and tech to hydras.
Put lings on those xel'naga watch towers.
Just macro better in general, you had 675/635 when his second mass of voidrays hit.
Also focus fire the voidrays, you want to take down as many as possible before they charge.
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
A few things:
Getting 10 drones before your OL gives you a slightly better economy than 9. (I have actually tested this a few times)
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
A few things:
Getting 10 drones before your OL gives you a slightly better economy than 9. (I have actually tested this a few times)
Okay guys, so just had a game against a really annoying Protoss player. He starts out with a 2 gate, and then I scout his base with a throwaway ling and notice Stargates. Okay, I switch to making queens. He still almost gets me, but I got to his base sooner.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
A few things:
Getting 10 drones before your OL gives you a slightly better economy than 9. (I have actually tested this a few times)
Posts
course I have an obsession with cracklings so gateway units are np
i thought that tunneling was limited to being on creep?
speaking of which, i think that the massive difference in zerg units on creep vs. off creep is the game mechanic that broke zerg for me. i have to spooge creep everywhere to have effective units, and the zerg used to be the blitzkrieg race, where massing and rushing was an extremely viable strategy. Now you have to spooge spooge spooge, attack.
Joe's Stream.
Well you should try and queue units up as little as physically possible, so really that's kind of a crutch.
Sorry, yes, warp gates. It's been years since I've played StarCraft so the terminology is coming back slowly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0YkXmebAGM
@first question: no it's not
His MMM disintegrated. And he had cut some to get crazy vikings. Which would've been awesome if I kept pumping Mutas. Not so much with hydras/speedlings/banelings.
Of course, I did lose a lot of Hydras. But I was at 200/200 with 4 bases because he decided not to expand 'till he was mined out and never attacked while I was ready to force a contain so I could just keep pumping more.
we had this conversation in mumble last night too. I don't mean queue up 5 zealots at one gameway, I mean it's easier to hit my hotkey for gateways and start making 5 zealots while still being able to see what is going on in another place in the map than it is to go back to your pylon and target in the warps. Queueing is useful when units are about to finish since it minimizes the downtime of your buildings.
For a rather minimal cost you can transport your warp gate units to any pylon on the battlefield. It is a huge feature of the protoss army and pretty key to reinforcing your units and keeping up the offensive.
I'm not in any kind of position skill-wise to say "you're doing it wrong" if you don't build warp gates. But I've never seen the top tier players not do it. What you do have to be careful of when you are warping in units is that they take a shitload of extra damage and are easily killed if you aren't careful about placement.
That's true, but since warpgates reduce training times by 5(10?)s per unit, I would say that the advantage of easier macro is far outweighed by the superior but more difficult macro of the warp gate.
So they can take damage while they warp in? So best to warp to the back/mid battlefield and move them in unless under fire from ranged attackers?
I'll have to give them a shot tonight and see if I can change up my mindset to work with the new idea. It's crazy how simple (and bad) falling into my old habits has been, which is killing me with all the differences and new units. I do like that I can use transports to easily make a warp spot though.
Ideally the opponent should not see them being warped in.
edit: that reminds me, does chrono boosting cut down on the cooldown of warp gates?
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
there are a lot of downside to warping in units with warpgates. they warp in over 5 seconds, completely vulnerable, and then the warpgate has an additional cooldown of 10s to be able to produce another unit. useful in certain sittuations, but I would say that a mothership warp would be another way of quick movement.
Joe's Stream.
I am a pretty terrible player, but watching his stuff has improved my play immensely. I still make tons of mistakes, but I can see where I went wrong and try and correct that mistake.
Actually, with the warpgate, your units are made instantly, but take 5s to warp in. And immediately after you select their location, your warpgate goes on cooldown for that unit's training time, minus 10s i believe. So basically you are training your units in 10 less seconds than with gateways.
How the hell do I deal with Void Rays besides just massing queens until I can get hydras out? Is there a better way?
you're right, i just looked.
so, the big downside is the complete vulnerability for 5s, but it actually speeds up production. That's pretty powerful if you can safely warp them in. Now that I understand it better, its seems so powerful, that I can see a nerf coming....
Joe's Stream.
Not too likely. I can't remember a time when the functionality of warpgates changed in any way during the beta. It is powerful enough that you pretty much always want it, cheap enough that it's basically free, and annoying enough that you never want your opponent to have it, but the protoss really need it to be competitive.
in the early beta the research time for warpgates was much quicker
Thanks for the insight and warnings on warpgates guys.
While googling Chrono Boosting (which I didn't know what it was), I discovered this on Team Liquids site:
Gamertag(SSF4/MW2)StokedAidzzzSC2 ID Stoked.655
Uploaded SC2 Replays
The nerf I see is the removal of the 10s quicker production time, or even an increase to the production time.
And, the protoss don't NEED it to be competitive, there are other ways of moving forces quickly....
Joe's Stream.
Slightly snappier transfuses probable would've made that a little better(that first queen death was a little eh for me, as was losing the lair), and if I see void rays and have the money for it I'll often throw a pair of spore crawlers in my mineral lines. You did that on your main but I didn't see any at the natural.
But mostly yeah, queens with transfuses, spore crawlers, and hydras.
i mean, quicker reinforcements with a proxy pylon is a little hard to fight against, but each race has their own unique production quirks (reactors for terran, larva for zerg, warpgates for protoss, etc)
I did so.
And I feel twice as competent with toss. Honestly, expanding just happens naturally as an agressive move rather then economic. I build pylons at what i consider the front line, usually where I would build cannons at a new expansion,a nd then safely begin warping units there. My expansions just spring up naturally behind my front line because I do not feel like I have to baby sit them.
Also, is it 10 seconds less then your normal build time, or 10 seconds total? It doesnt seem to matter what I warp in, the cooldown seems to be the same. I could be wrong though. Either way, its like an instant version of setting waypoints for my units so I love it. Another thing is, it keeps my food high, since im building pylons to be able to warp units in.
Really, there is so much that happens with Toss naturally that you have to worry about with terran. Expanding and building supply depots is a chore that I have to remember in order not to screw myself with terran. With toss, it all just...happens.
Usually by the time you have warpgates Protoss players are chrono boosting their tech upgrades.
Its boring, but the person that does that usually wins.
Yeah I was having some targeting issues with that first queen fight, and when the lair went down I just didn't know that all those hydras were up...noob mistakes on my part, but I guess that's why I'm not platinum :P
I also watched Day9's analysis of going mass Queens in ZvZ, and I must say I'm intrigued. I will have to try that out sometime.
It's like a dollar plus whatever it costs for you download stuff on almost any phone, so like 3 bucks max. You don't need an iPhone.
A few things:
Getting 10 drones before your OL gives you a slightly better economy than 9. (I have actually tested this a few times)
15 hatch isn't that good, 14 hatch 13 pool is the ideal for super fast expand, but really steppes of war is too small to do it safely.
Your main and natural were never saturated, you could have easily had double the production if you did.
You could have spotted that starport a lot sooner by having lings run around his base (his ramp wasn't blocked for most the ame), or just by having OLs sitting around on the edges.
You got a lot of roaches at the start but never really used them, with constant scouting you could have determined if your spines/lings were enough to handle his zealots and then just pump drones and tech to hydras.
Put lings on those xel'naga watch towers.
Just macro better in general, you had 675/635 when his second mass of voidrays hit.
Also focus fire the voidrays, you want to take down as many as possible before they charge.
This is untrue, 9OL is better
He was talking about using your chronoboosts on the warpgates themselves. It does work and it does lower their cooldown.
Nope.
Yup
my ling/muta play is just so much sexier
Nice to know.