hehe the warning shots thing is kinda amusing
when someone has helicopters, artillery, and all sorts of guns aimed at you, the idea of firing warning shots is a bit absurd
I thought it was like, they fired the warning shots and the Israeli soldiers started shooting back and called in the helicopter? I dunno, it's pretty unclear.
So it looks like the Lebanese were at fault here. Zero Hezbollah involvement too. Actually, Hezbollah has been suprisingly quiet on all this when you consider the timing.
Guy Bechor, a senior analyst of Israeli-Arab affairs at the Interdisciplinary Centre at Herziiya, north of Tel Aviv, said the entire affair appeared to have been fully planned by the Lebanese army.
"That sort of action is not undertaken without prior planning or plotting," Dr Bechor said.
"The immediate purpose was to create deterrence with Israel. The Lebanese army has become fed up standing idly by while the IDF operates almost as freely in Lebanese territory as it does in its own territory.''
The last paragraph is quite informative. Had it coming I'd say....
Well I guess it depends on how you define "victim." Some reports have the Lebanese firing warning shots into the air, to which the Israeli troops responded by killing people. It depends on how it really went down.
Isn't that the exact scenario that many used to justify the flotilla folks getting violent? (israel fired warning shots which they took as a sign of aggression)
For once, Israel was doing nothing wrong. Now, if new information comes out that shows israel in the wrong, then sure, let's all revisit it, but for the time being, this is how it is even according to the UN. The folks who are trying to get Israel to share the blame here have a CLEAR bias, and it is kind of disgusting.
While it's certainly possible that there could have been actions taken by Israel to lower the chance of this sort of event occurring, at this stage in the game it looks like the tree was on the Israeli side of the border, doesn't it?
And that's all there really is to it, it seems to me. Don't shoot at people cutting down their own trees!
So it looks like the Lebanese were at fault here. Zero Hezbollah involvement too. Actually, Hezbollah has been suprisingly quiet on all this when you consider the timing.
timing?
Anniversary of the end of the 2006 war is coming soon.
DarkCrawler on
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Dox, I love that picture so much
The Black Hunter on
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Cut down all trees
There can never be peace while their kind continues to exist
There can never be peace while their kind continues to exist
Just to get it out of the way:
There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their please.
The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.
There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.
Well I guess it depends on how you define "victim." Some reports have the Lebanese firing warning shots into the air, to which the Israeli troops responded by killing people. It depends on how it really went down.
Isn't that the exact scenario that many used to justify the flotilla folks getting violent? (israel fired warning shots which they took as a sign of aggression)
For once, Israel was doing nothing wrong. Now, if new information comes out that shows israel in the wrong, then sure, let's all revisit it, but for the time being, this is how it is even according to the UN. The folks who are trying to get Israel to share the blame here have a CLEAR bias, and it is kind of disgusting.
Who in this thread is blaming Israel? Or are you mad at some other people?
Dont want to create yet another thread on this topic, but yea.. these guys will never ever have peace. I think they both just do things to piss each other off as much as possible and in Israels case no one can or will stand up to them.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Israel called to tell the Lebanese that it was sending people to the tree, so the problem may have been that Israel hadn't given Lebanon enough time to check that the blue line was behind the fence where Israel said it was or get the word out to the troops in the area. The late call seems like something caused by whoever planned the removal using a map that marked the blue line but not the fence.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Israel called to tell the Lebanese that it was sending people to the tree, so the problem may have been that Israel hadn't given Lebanon enough time to check that the blue line was behind the fence where Israel said it was or get the word out to the troops in the area. The late call seems like something caused by whoever planned the removal using a map that marked the blue line but not the fence.
Israel told the UN guys that day they were going to be on/around/over the border to cut down a tree, UN says "this is going to cause trouble, hold up." They call the Lebanese, Israel goes "fuck y'all we do what we want" and does it anyway. Lebanese go "hey we just said we didn't want you crossing into disputed territory and you do it anyway?" and fire warning shots in the air. Israelis then call down artillery.
Completely consistent with the accounts of both sides and how Israel sees its neighbors.
Yeah it's very consistent with it being bullshit you just made up on the spot.
But at least Burtletoy got his answer.
The "sending word" part or the "no time" part? We've pretty much confirmed the former, and the latter, although not well confirmed, does seem to wrap things up really well.
The Lebanese army said there had been discussions with UNIFIL in recent days about an Israeli request to remove some trees along the border.
"There was also talk of UNIFIL carrying out this operation but the Israelis insisted on doing it on their own," a spokesman told AFP.
Speaking at a news conference at UN headquarters in New York, Le Roy said UNIFIL received word from Israel around 6:30 AM local time on Tuesday about the planned tree-trimming. "We said in the morning that its important to buy time to ensure that both parties agree," Le Roy said. "They postponed by some hours, I expected more hours, but they postponed by some hours, yes," he said. The skirmish occurred around 11:40 AM local time and lasted about a half hour, Le Roy said. Le Roy also confirmed that UNIFIL relayed Israel's announcement regarding the tree-chopping to the Lebanese side, who objected to this activity, because Lebanon "has reservations" about the route of the Blue Line in the area in question.
If I'm willing to criticize my own country's actions I sure as hell am not going to be intimidated into whitewashing the bunch of hawk Republicans who run Israel.
Dont want to create yet another thread on this topic, but yea.. these guys will never ever have peace. I think they both just do things to piss each other off as much as possible and in Israels case no one can or will stand up to them.
Not sure how LEGIT this link is or how valid that site is. I found it reading neogaf btw.
Hezbollah is actually capable of standing up to Israel, they sort of humiliated them in the last war and was a contributing factor in driving them out of Lebanon. It's probably the most competent paramilitary organization in the world, at least in the Middle East, and gets a lot of financial and military help from Syria and Iran. Plus it has popular support.
It's just that in any combat between them, Lebanon will always take the brunt of Israel's weapons.
But Hezbollah will not solve the conflict. They may be able to keep Israel in check(somewhat) but it does nothing to ease the tensions. When one side can do whatever they please, whenever they please and the other doesn't or will not be able to get to the same level or same footing, there will never be peace, that is until something really horrific happens.
The Lebanese army said there had been discussions with UNIFIL in recent days about an Israeli request to remove some trees along the border.
"There was also talk of UNIFIL carrying out this operation but the Israelis insisted on doing it on their own," a spokesman told AFP.
Speaking at a news conference at UN headquarters in New York, Le Roy said UNIFIL received word from Israel around 6:30 AM local time on Tuesday about the planned tree-trimming. "We said in the morning that its important to buy time to ensure that both parties agree," Le Roy said. "They postponed by some hours, I expected more hours, but they postponed by some hours, yes," he said. The skirmish occurred around 11:40 AM local time and lasted about a half hour, Le Roy said. Le Roy also confirmed that UNIFIL relayed Israel's announcement regarding the tree-chopping to the Lebanese side, who objected to this activity, because Lebanon "has reservations" about the route of the Blue Line in the area in question.
If I'm willing to criticize my own country's actions I sure as hell am not going to be intimidated into whitewashing the bunch of hawk Republicans who run Israel.
It doesn't matter where the tree was in Israeli territory, the Lebanese would have called it disputed territory. Given the warning, they felt that they had a right to object. They didn't.
And there is no consensus between the sides on them being "warning shots". And Lebanon doesn't deny that those "warning shots" killed an Israeli Lt. Colonel.
They're just serving up semantic bullshit so people like you can spin this into it being Israel's fault, when all the facts that can't be disputed point to the contrary.
The Lebanese army said there had been discussions with UNIFIL in recent days about an Israeli request to remove some trees along the border.
"There was also talk of UNIFIL carrying out this operation but the Israelis insisted on doing it on their own," a spokesman told AFP.
Speaking at a news conference at UN headquarters in New York, Le Roy said UNIFIL received word from Israel around 6:30 AM local time on Tuesday about the planned tree-trimming. "We said in the morning that its important to buy time to ensure that both parties agree," Le Roy said. "They postponed by some hours, I expected more hours, but they postponed by some hours, yes," he said. The skirmish occurred around 11:40 AM local time and lasted about a half hour, Le Roy said. Le Roy also confirmed that UNIFIL relayed Israel's announcement regarding the tree-chopping to the Lebanese side, who objected to this activity, because Lebanon "has reservations" about the route of the Blue Line in the area in question.
If I'm willing to criticize my own country's actions I sure as hell am not going to be intimidated into whitewashing the bunch of hawk Republicans who run Israel.
It doesn't matter where the tree was in Israeli territory, the Lebanese would have called it disputed territory. Given the warning, they felt that they had a right to object. They didn't.
And there is no consensus between the sides on them being "warning shots". And Lebanon doesn't deny that those "warning shots" killed an Israeli Lt. Colonel.
They're just serving up semantic bullshit so people like you can spin this into it being Israel's fault, when all the facts that can't be disputed point to the contrary.
On the other hand, if they weren't given the time to verify and get the word out, it makes sense that the soldiers would assume that Israel was dicking around in Lebanese territory when they saw Israeli soldiers using a crane to reach over the landmark most people round the blue line to.
The main cause of this seems to be a benign lack of foresight on the part of whoever planned the thing (most likely a regional commander unused to international politics). Either he forgot to check what side of the fence the tree was on after determining the location of the tree relative to the blue line until the last minute and didn't want to mess up his schedule by delaying the op, or he forgot that the Lebanese government couldn't take a foreign military commander at his word and how long it can take for news to make it from the diplomats to the soldiers.
Or the Lebanese soldiers are just trying to lie their way out of a court martial.
What? You do realize this is an Israeli fence and not some neutral barrier that both sides treat as the de facto border?
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
What? You do realize this is an Israeli fence and not some neutral barrier that both sides treat as the de facto border?
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect? It obviously took its having the right of way for granted without considering that having the right of way doesn't preclude being cautious. This was a petty (in magnitude, I can't remember the right term) action that Israel decided to rush which led to an unforeseen reaction from the Lebanese. Yes, Lebanon was rash and at fault, but Israel should know to be careful and not take chances for the sake of expediency in border matters. Its action was amateurish and you can bet that whoever planned it is going to get in all kinds of trouble for not punting over to the Israeli version of the State Department like he should have.
What? You do realize this is an Israeli fence and not some neutral barrier that both sides treat as the de facto border?
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect? It obviously took its having the right of way for granted without considering that having the right of way doesn't preclude being cautious. This was a petty (in magnitude, I can't remember the right term) action that Israel decided to rush which led to an unforeseen reaction from the Lebanese. Yes, Lebanon was rash and at fault, but Israel should know to be careful and not take chances for the sake of expediency in border matters. Its action was amateurish and you can bet that whoever planned it is going to get in all kinds of trouble for not punting over to the Israeli version of the State Department like he should have.
Look, the girl was wearing a mini skirt. Clearly, the rapist was at fault for raping her, but she could've taken a few more precautions.
What? You do realize this is an Israeli fence and not some neutral barrier that both sides treat as the de facto border?
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect? It obviously took its having the right of way for granted without considering that having the right of way doesn't preclude being cautious. This was a petty (in magnitude, I can't remember the right term) action that Israel decided to rush which led to an unforeseen reaction from the Lebanese. Yes, Lebanon was rash and at fault, but Israel should know to be careful and not take chances for the sake of expediency in border matters. Its action was amateurish and you can bet that whoever planned it is going to get in all kinds of trouble for not punting over to the Israeli version of the State Department like he should have.
Look, the girl was wearing a mini skirt. Clearly, the rapist was at fault for raping her, but she could've taken a few more precautions.
No, the rapists at fault, but the girl was stupid. If a third party had dressed her (an analogy built on the fact that government action are the action of a bunch of people), he should get in all sorts of trouble for endangering her in such a way.
Israel didn't do anything wrong. They stayed inside their own borders. The responsibility is on Lebanon.
The border seems to be rather disputed.
The blue line is usually assumed to be the operational border, but the soldiers i the area can't see it so the assumption is likely that it's close enough to the fence for the fence to act as the border, especially when it's hard to be sure how far from the fence on has to be to be over the border.
On the other hand, if they weren't given the time to verify and get the word out, it makes sense that the soldiers would assume that Israel was dicking around in Lebanese territory when they saw Israeli soldiers using a crane to reach over the landmark most people round the blue line to.
Yeah, two countries that fight over every inch of land are going to just 'round' the border to the nearest fence. Soldiers that are members of this country and in charge of protecting and watching their border aren't briefed of its actual location?
What a load of bull. Considering some people here know what the blue line is, and I imagine every single norther-Israelite knows where the border is -- it is not a stretch to think that every soldier in charge of protecting the border on both sides knows where the border is.
As a semi-related aside: I've visited this border and sat at some of the places pictured in these articles. It's really shocking when you're there (or most borders of Israel) to realize how close they are to a country they don't get along with.
What? You do realize this is an Israeli fence and not some neutral barrier that both sides treat as the de facto border?
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect?
I can't answer this poorly phrased question but what I can state is that since the attack by Lebanon was so senseless and belligerent that there is no point in speculating what Israel could have done differently, you can come up with a dozen different things with absolutely no proof that it would have made a difference.
That's why that mini-skirt line is trap, you silly goose. Rapists don't rape girls because they're wearing mini-skirts, they do it because they want to rape a girl. If you can't understand a simple thing like that then you need to reevaluate your view of the world.
On the other hand, if they weren't given the time to verify and get the word out, it makes sense that the soldiers would assume that Israel was dicking around in Lebanese territory when they saw Israeli soldiers using a crane to reach over the landmark most people round the blue line to.
Yeah, two countries that fight over every inch of land are going to just 'round' the border to the nearest fence. Soldiers that are members of this country and in charge of protecting and watching their border aren't briefed of its actual location?
What a load of bull. Considering some people here know what the blue line is, and I imagine every single norther-Israelite knows where the border is -- it is not a stretch to think that every soldier in charge of protecting the border on both sides knows where the border is.
As a semi-related aside: I've visited this border and sat at some of the places pictured in these articles. It's really shocking when you're there (or most borders of Israel) to realize how close they are to a country they don't get along with.
They know it's a distance beyond the fence that varies along the length of the fence. The Lebanese soldiers know it's there, and may have a fair grasp of its general location, but trying to remember where it is at every point along the fence within their patrol area is ridiculous, especially when pretty much nobody is interested in dicking around within that area.
What? You do realize this is an Israeli fence and not some neutral barrier that both sides treat as the de facto border?
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect?
I can't answer this poorly phrased question but what I can state is that since the attack by Lebanon was so senseless and belligerent that there is no point in speculating what Israel could have done differently, you can come up with a dozen different things with absolutely no proof that it would have made a difference.
That's why that mini-skirt line is trap, you silly goose. Rapists don't rape girls because they're wearing mini-skirts, they do it because they want to rape a girl. If you can't understand a simple thing like that then you need to reevaluate your view of the world.
If your analogy doesn't work, that's your problem, not mine. You asked whether I think the victim of a crime is at fault for the crime because he or she did something to raise the chances of being a victim of the crime, and I answered that not being at fault for the crime doesn't mean that the risk-enhancing action didn't take place or that the action wasn't inadvisable. We all laughed at that guy on the Daily Show who had his thousand-dollar gun collection stolen from next to the safe and other valuables from the top of the radiator, but that doesn't mean that whoever took the stuff isn't a thief.
I'm sure the person responsible for this little debacle is going to make the same arguments as you when his higher-up fire him for incompetence, and the people he appeals to are going to laugh in his face.
Posts
when someone has helicopters, artillery, and all sorts of guns aimed at you, the idea of firing warning shots is a bit absurd
you don't fire warning shots at anyone
that's why they're warning shots
timing?
kpop appreciation station i also like to tweet some
The last paragraph is quite informative. Had it coming I'd say....
Isn't that the exact scenario that many used to justify the flotilla folks getting violent? (israel fired warning shots which they took as a sign of aggression)
For once, Israel was doing nothing wrong. Now, if new information comes out that shows israel in the wrong, then sure, let's all revisit it, but for the time being, this is how it is even according to the UN. The folks who are trying to get Israel to share the blame here have a CLEAR bias, and it is kind of disgusting.
And that's all there really is to it, it seems to me. Don't shoot at people cutting down their own trees!
Anniversary of the end of the 2006 war is coming soon.
There can never be peace while their kind continues to exist
Excellent.
Just to get it out of the way:
Who in this thread is blaming Israel? Or are you mad at some other people?
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=305219
Not sure how LEGIT this link is or how valid that site is. I found it reading neogaf btw.
Israel told the UN guys that day they were going to be on/around/over the border to cut down a tree, UN says "this is going to cause trouble, hold up." They call the Lebanese, Israel goes "fuck y'all we do what we want" and does it anyway. Lebanese go "hey we just said we didn't want you crossing into disputed territory and you do it anyway?" and fire warning shots in the air. Israelis then call down artillery.
Completely consistent with the accounts of both sides and how Israel sees its neighbors.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
But at least Burtletoy got his answer.
The "sending word" part or the "no time" part? We've pretty much confirmed the former, and the latter, although not well confirmed, does seem to wrap things up really well.
Evander is that you?
If I'm willing to criticize my own country's actions I sure as hell am not going to be intimidated into whitewashing the bunch of hawk Republicans who run Israel.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Hezbollah is actually capable of standing up to Israel, they sort of humiliated them in the last war and was a contributing factor in driving them out of Lebanon. It's probably the most competent paramilitary organization in the world, at least in the Middle East, and gets a lot of financial and military help from Syria and Iran. Plus it has popular support.
It's just that in any combat between them, Lebanon will always take the brunt of Israel's weapons.
And there is no consensus between the sides on them being "warning shots". And Lebanon doesn't deny that those "warning shots" killed an Israeli Lt. Colonel.
They're just serving up semantic bullshit so people like you can spin this into it being Israel's fault, when all the facts that can't be disputed point to the contrary.
On the other hand, if they weren't given the time to verify and get the word out, it makes sense that the soldiers would assume that Israel was dicking around in Lebanese territory when they saw Israeli soldiers using a crane to reach over the landmark most people round the blue line to.
The main cause of this seems to be a benign lack of foresight on the part of whoever planned the thing (most likely a regional commander unused to international politics). Either he forgot to check what side of the fence the tree was on after determining the location of the tree relative to the blue line until the last minute and didn't want to mess up his schedule by delaying the op, or he forgot that the Lebanese government couldn't take a foreign military commander at his word and how long it can take for news to make it from the diplomats to the soldiers.
Or the Lebanese soldiers are just trying to lie their way out of a court martial.
When you build a fence on the border you build it with enough of your territory in front of the fence so you have justification for taking action against anyone standing right in front of your fence. That also means that the guys in control on the other side of the border don't have much justification to do anything when you are in front of the god damned fence that you just built.
Are we going to play "speculate how Israel fucked this up" for the entire lifetime of this thread?
Are you really questioning that Israel couldn't have done this better with retrospect? It obviously took its having the right of way for granted without considering that having the right of way doesn't preclude being cautious. This was a petty (in magnitude, I can't remember the right term) action that Israel decided to rush which led to an unforeseen reaction from the Lebanese. Yes, Lebanon was rash and at fault, but Israel should know to be careful and not take chances for the sake of expediency in border matters. Its action was amateurish and you can bet that whoever planned it is going to get in all kinds of trouble for not punting over to the Israeli version of the State Department like he should have.
Look, the girl was wearing a mini skirt. Clearly, the rapist was at fault for raping her, but she could've taken a few more precautions.
The border seems to be rather disputed.
No, the rapists at fault, but the girl was stupid. If a third party had dressed her (an analogy built on the fact that government action are the action of a bunch of people), he should get in all sorts of trouble for endangering her in such a way.
The blue line is usually assumed to be the operational border, but the soldiers i the area can't see it so the assumption is likely that it's close enough to the fence for the fence to act as the border, especially when it's hard to be sure how far from the fence on has to be to be over the border.
Yeah, two countries that fight over every inch of land are going to just 'round' the border to the nearest fence. Soldiers that are members of this country and in charge of protecting and watching their border aren't briefed of its actual location?
What a load of bull. Considering some people here know what the blue line is, and I imagine every single norther-Israelite knows where the border is -- it is not a stretch to think that every soldier in charge of protecting the border on both sides knows where the border is.
As a semi-related aside: I've visited this border and sat at some of the places pictured in these articles. It's really shocking when you're there (or most borders of Israel) to realize how close they are to a country they don't get along with.
That's why that mini-skirt line is trap, you silly goose. Rapists don't rape girls because they're wearing mini-skirts, they do it because they want to rape a girl. If you can't understand a simple thing like that then you need to reevaluate your view of the world.
They know it's a distance beyond the fence that varies along the length of the fence. The Lebanese soldiers know it's there, and may have a fair grasp of its general location, but trying to remember where it is at every point along the fence within their patrol area is ridiculous, especially when pretty much nobody is interested in dicking around within that area.
bullets?
If your analogy doesn't work, that's your problem, not mine. You asked whether I think the victim of a crime is at fault for the crime because he or she did something to raise the chances of being a victim of the crime, and I answered that not being at fault for the crime doesn't mean that the risk-enhancing action didn't take place or that the action wasn't inadvisable. We all laughed at that guy on the Daily Show who had his thousand-dollar gun collection stolen from next to the safe and other valuables from the top of the radiator, but that doesn't mean that whoever took the stuff isn't a thief.
I'm sure the person responsible for this little debacle is going to make the same arguments as you when his higher-up fire him for incompetence, and the people he appeals to are going to laugh in his face.