I'm glad to see this is back to a suits versus lack-of-understanding-of-social-norms thread. It hasn't failed to entertain, though. The premise is arguing the merits of the man-child with a forum that is guaranteed to be populated with a significant population of man-children.
Apparently nobody disagrees with the definition of 'man-child' as a grownup with the self-centeredness of a child. Which I guess leaves arguing about clothes.
mythago on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited September 2010
so from this thread, the defintions of man children seem to be:
1) people who are into stuff socially deemed as inappropriate (often kiddie stuff)
2) people who are obsessively into stuff, sometimes to the point of something resembling mental illness
3) people who have train-wreck lives, usually as a result of an unwillingness to take personal responsibility
i guess the prototypical "man-child" would include all three of these, but i'd propose that any one of these categories is met with derision in modern society. the common factor seems to be that there's a common thread of infantilization, mental illness and mental incapacity. in short, man-children come across as possibly deranged and childlike retards.
most of the defensive responses in this thread seem to be either:
1) defending one or more of these categories as benign or okay or cool or at least nothing to scorn
2) protesting the equivocation or the assumption of correlation between these categories
3) a reiteration of the stance that people who judge other people are "assholes"
so uh, i think maybe discussion could be directed from here? have i missed anyone's central contribution?
That sums up the thread so far, yes. But I don't really think this is necessary to be a man-child:
1) people who are into stuff socially deemed as inappropriate (often kiddie stuff)
Look at the commercial posted on the first page, the guy who "deserves a Klondike bar" because he, OMG, put his dish in the dishwasher. Although he's not into comics or toys, he is a man-child because doing even the smallest chore instead of letting Mommy--I mean, his wife--do it is utterly foreign to him.
Interesting counterpoint to this thread . . . I was on a forum today and one lady was complaining about her husband. Hubby wanted a very expensive "toy". ($20,000 item.) It was something that the wife wouldn't use / enjoy and that she felt they couldn't afford. She wanted to use the money for bills, college tuition for the kids, put it in the retirement fund, etc. As the thread progressed, it was revealed that for their entire 20+ year marriage, the husband had quite regularly bought expensive items for himself. He also had little financial sense (she provided some specific examples) and the wife was constantly having to prevent him from buying frivolous things they couldn't afford.
Although the husband is not "obsessed" with any particular hobby and presumably is socially functional, this spendthrift can't control his desires and must be restrained from running the couple into the ground financially by his wife. (This can also happen in reverse, where the husband has to be the adult who keeps the wife from spending on everything on things the couple can't afford--just so no one thinks I'm picking on guys. )
I'm interested to hear if you guys would qualify him as a man-child. I would, of the "give that man a Klondike bar" variety. (Not as bad as the "nonfunctioning social recluse" man-child, but not a badge of honor either.) A lot of posters in the thread referred to the man's desired object as a "toy" and commented that he sounded "like a child / kind of childish / a silly child / etc." Or do you think he doesn't qualify at all?
Anybody who expects their wife/girlfriend to do everything for them is a manchild in my book. Unless you're working, like, 12+-hour shifts every day and your wife/girlfriend isn't, you need to chip in on basic domestic tasks. And even then you should have the decency to pick up after yourself.
so from this thread, the defintions of man children seem to be:
1) people who are into stuff socially deemed as inappropriate (often kiddie stuff)
2) people who are obsessively into stuff, sometimes to the point of something resembling mental illness
3) people who have train-wreck lives, usually as a result of an unwillingness to take personal responsibility
i guess the prototypical "man-child" would include all three of these, but i'd propose that any one of these categories is met with derision in modern society. the common factor seems to be that there's a common thread of infantilization, mental illness and mental incapacity. in short, man-children come across as possibly deranged and childlike retards.
most of the defensive responses in this thread seem to be either:
1) defending one or more of these categories as benign or okay or cool or at least nothing to scorn
2) protesting the equivocation or the assumption of correlation between these categories
3) a reiteration of the stance that people who judge other people are "assholes"
so uh, i think maybe discussion could be directed from here? have i missed anyone's central contribution?
You're basically right. Though I have yet to hear a good reason as to why the people in category #1 actually deserve any derision or the label of "man-child". 2 and 3 make sense. And sometimes, perhaps often, the people in 2 and 3 will also belong in group 1. But there's plenty of people from group one that are perfectly normal, mature people, who also like to watch anime or they collect transformers or they play a lot of video games or they read comic books. I don't really consider this childish behavior.
There's a difference between reading Naruto, and going outside to stage imaginary magical ninja-fights with your friends like it's recess at elementary school. There's a difference between posing figures to display them, and sitting at the table yelling "pew pew" with toys in your hands. Most mainstream comics are written for older fans and are filled with all kinds of things that little kids just shouldn't be exposed to...in fact one of the biggest complaints people have about the comics industry is that it's way too non-kid-friendly. Anime/manga is an incredibly diverse industry that covers all kinds of genres and demographics...saying that it's all childish is akin to saying all american animation is childish or all american network TV is for old people. Gamers are more commonly adults than they are kids, it's really hard for me to call the hobby childish when most of the people who partake in it are my age.
I think that someone that throws scorn at a person just because they read manga or collect action figures is morally in the wrong, and I think that we should work towards a society that doesn't behave like that. Just because these things are commonly seen as socially unacceptable or childish doesn't mean they SHOULD be. The real problem is people in the second and third groups. If someone can't interact in a social setting without dressing up like Naruto or blabbing about nothing but One Piece or Starcraft or Optimus Prime, that's a problem. If someone is so obsessed with WoW that they stop going to work, or loves Transformers so much that they use their rent payment to buy a Megatron, that's a problem. But everyone who watches cartoons or reads comics does not deserve to be dubbed a man-child and looked down on.
You're basically right. Though I have yet to hear a good reason as to why the people in category #1 actually deserve any derision or the label of "man-child". 2 and 3 make sense. And sometimes, perhaps often, the people in 2 and 3 will also belong in group 1. But there's plenty of people from group one that are perfectly normal, mature people, who also like to watch anime or they collect transformers or they play a lot of video games or they read comic books. I don't really consider this childish behavior.
There's a difference between reading Naruto, and going outside to stage imaginary magical ninja-fights with your friends like it's recess at elementary school. There's a difference between posing figures to display them, and sitting at the table yelling "pew pew" with toys in your hands. Most mainstream comics are written for older fans and are filled with all kinds of things that little kids just shouldn't be exposed to...in fact one of the biggest complaints people have about the comics industry is that it's way too non-kid-friendly. Anime/manga is an incredibly diverse industry that covers all kinds of genres and demographics...saying that it's all childish is akin to saying all american animation is childish or all american network TV is for old people. Gamers are more commonly adults than they are kids, it's really hard for me to call the hobby childish when most of the people who partake in it are my age.
I think that someone that throws scorn at a person just because they read manga or collect action figures is morally in the wrong, and I think that we should work towards a society that doesn't behave like that. Just because these things are commonly seen as socially unacceptable or childish doesn't mean they SHOULD be. The real problem is people in the second and third groups. If someone can't interact in a social setting without dressing up like Naruto or blabbing about nothing but One Piece or Starcraft or Optimus Prime, that's a problem. If someone is so obsessed with WoW that they stop going to work, or loves Transformers so much that they use their rent payment to buy a Megatron, that's a problem. But everyone who watches cartoons or reads comics does not deserve to be dubbed a man-child and looked down on.
well, what you're talking about is the distinction between type 1 and type 2 man-children i think.
granted, are definitely degrees. grown-ups who collect comic books are generally considered a little strange. it's unusual. but not as unusual as, say, collecting GI Joes, or strawberry shortcakes or my little ponies or cabbage patch dolls. grown-ups who watch the animes are considered a little strange, both because animation is kind of associated with kids in the US and because anime is associated with cartoon pornography and sexual deviants.
likewise, being a little bit into your infantile hobby, whatever it might be, isn't considered as bad as being way into your infantile hobby. reading mangas is one thing and dressing like mangas is something else. both are considered a little fishy, but the second is much worse.
Wait.. why is it "man-child"? I'm not about to go reading all 52 pages of this thread. Don't know if it's been covered.
Are women pardoned? Is it considered "cute" and "attractive" for women to be into "kiddie stuff" while men are looked down upon for it?
No, we also covered this. Women can be just as childish as men, although sometimes it manifests in different ways.
The chick at work who constantly tries to start drama with everyone else (especially other women) and goes around trying to play status/exclusion games like a high school freshman, and most everyone else hates her because she acts like she'd rather cause drama than do the job she's being paid to do? Total adult child. You run into these occasionally, especially if your profession or field is mainly done by women.
Also, it was never really clear whether the endlessly-debated cat-eared person was a man or a woman, it seemed to vary depending on the poster.
grown-ups who watch the animes are considered a little strange, both because animation is kind of associated with kids in the US and because anime is associated with cartoon pornography and sexual deviants.
And that would be an excellent example of people forming opinions based on misinformation. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be all, "whelp, that's what society thinks, what you gonna do?" without challenging that misinformation, instead of buying into it on these forums as well.
likewise, being a little bit into your infantile hobby, whatever it might be, isn't considered as bad as being way into your infantile hobby. reading mangas is one thing and dressing like mangas is something else. both are considered a little fishy, but the second is much worse.
Except nobody's been able to define a clear line as to what is and isn't appropriate outside of fuzzy preferences, like Ren Faire is somehow okay, and Stormtroopers are okay (maybe), and Snape just might be okay, but anime characters are definitely not, for no other reason than those who decree it so don't like anime. I'd love a list of exactly what I am and am not allowed to do to not be considered a freak, but I have the sneaking suspicion I'd get a different list depending on whom and where I polled.
Also, and perhaps because of the association mentioned above between anime and sexual deviancy, there seems to be an inability to imagine someone might dress up as a character they wouldn't have sex with, hence the pedoscary notions about HP cosplayers.
It's like saying that because some people have foot fetishes, anyone who really likes stilettos or platform shoes has a foot fetish. I mean, they might, but that's kind of a leap just to get the pleasure of judging someone.
Wait.. why is it "man-child"? I'm not about to go reading all 52 pages of this thread. Don't know if it's been covered.
Are women pardoned? Is it considered "cute" and "attractive" for women to be into "kiddie stuff" while men are looked down upon for it?
In Japan.
Unless the dudes in Japan also cuddle teddy bears in public in their 30s.
All of these factors doubtless contribute to Japan's declining birth and marriage rate, and the delaying of marriage until later in life as people delay adulthood.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Except nobody's been able to define a clear line as to what is and isn't appropriate outside of fuzzy preferences, like Ren Faire is somehow okay, and Stormtroopers are okay (maybe), and Snape just might be okay, but anime characters are definitely not, for no other reason than those who decree it so don't like anime. I'd love a list of exactly what I am and am not allowed to do to not be considered a freak, but I have the sneaking suspicion I'd get a different list depending on whom and where I polled.
Also, and perhaps because of the association mentioned above between cosplay and sexual deviancy, there seems to be an inability to imagine someone might dress up as a character they wouldn't have sex with, hence the pedoscary notions about HP cosplayers.
It's like saying that because some people have foot fetishes, anyone who really likes stilettos or platform shoes has a foot fetish. I mean, they might, but that's kind of a leap just to get the pleasure of judging someone.
social mores and guidelines are fuzzy preferences, like it or not. you don't get a list of things you are or aren't allowed to do. you have to observe your environment yourself and make your choice and roll the dice.
i can (and have!) expounded on my perception of where society's gonna come down. the general response has been "but that's not consistent! it's not faaiiirrr!!" And i guess it's neither, but it doesn't mean that it isn't what i understand to be pretty much the way things are. i absolutely agree that these have been based on my observations and are going to be different wherever you go and who you ask - shadows on the wall - but i still think that there will exist a basic social milieu that you have to consider wherever you go and whatever circles you run in.
and yeah in my view doing any of that nerd stuff is gonna be looked down on in most general social quarters. if i told someone at work that i had a larp costume or was a closet furry or went out to civil war reinactments or dressed up for anime conventions, it would be considered pretty fucking fishy even though i present myself professionally at work.
pedarasty doesn't necessarily leap to my mind as often as it does a lot of people. but when i see an adult acting like a child, it generally gives me a pretty negative general impression.
Except nobody's been able to define a clear line as to what is and isn't appropriate outside of fuzzy preferences, like Ren Faire is somehow okay, and Stormtroopers are okay (maybe), and Snape just might be okay, but anime characters are definitely not, for no other reason than those who decree it so don't like anime. I'd love a list of exactly what I am and am not allowed to do to not be considered a freak, but I have the sneaking suspicion I'd get a different list depending on whom and where I polled.
Also, and perhaps because of the association mentioned above between cosplay and sexual deviancy, there seems to be an inability to imagine someone might dress up as a character they wouldn't have sex with, hence the pedoscary notions about HP cosplayers.
It's like saying that because some people have foot fetishes, anyone who really likes stilettos or platform shoes has a foot fetish. I mean, they might, but that's kind of a leap just to get the pleasure of judging someone.
social mores and guidelines are fuzzy preferences, like it or not. you don't get a list of things you are or aren't allowed to do. you have to observe your environment yourself and make your choice and roll the dice.
i can (and have!) expounded on my perception of where society's gonna come down. the general response has been "but that's not consistent! it's not faaiiirrr!!" And i guess it's neither, but it doesn't mean that it isn't what i understand to be pretty much the way things are. i absolutely agree that these have been based on my observations and are going to be different wherever you go and who you ask - shadows on the wall - but i still think that there will exist a basic social milieu that you have to consider wherever you go and whatever circles you run in.
and yeah in my view doing any of that nerd stuff is gonna be looked down on in most general social quarters. if i told someone at work that i had a larp costume or was a closet furry or went out to civil war reinactments or dressed up for anime conventions, it would be considered pretty fucking fishy even though i present myself professionally at work.
pedarasty doesn't necessarily leap to my mind as often as it does a lot of people. but when i see an adult acting like a child, it generally gives me a pretty negative general impression.
There's a very big difference, in my mind, between knowing that going to Ren Faire OR dressing up like an HP character isn't generally respected in general society (which I am aware of), and coming to a messageboard based on a comic about videogames and finding some sort of nerd hierarchy imposed. "I know my hobbies are kind of weird, but I'm not THAT weirdo, holy shit is that a weirdo!"
Greater society imposing guidelines I can accept. Nerds imposing random guidelines based on their subculture of choice/shun makes me lol.
Edit: I want to add - when you see an adult acting like a child how? Playing video games? Jumping on a bed? Dressing up? Painting their face for a sporting event? How arbitrary do you want to make that?
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
There's a very big difference, in my mind, between knowing that going to Ren Faire OR dressing up like an HP character isn't generally respected in general society (which I am aware of), and coming to a messageboard based on a comic about videogames and finding some sort of nerd hierarchy imposed. "I know my hobbies are kind of weird, but I'm not THAT weirdo, holy shit is that a weirdo!"
Greater society imposing guidelines I can accept. Nerds imposing random guidelines based on their subculture of choice/shun makes me lol.
well
while i do think that there's probably not only a kind of general "heirarchy of nerdy activities" in mainstream society as well as an intricate nerd pecking order within subcultures, that wasn't really my personal point in posting in this thread.
my personal point was just to underscore the fact that, while an online forum of supportive dorks is a fine escape, trying to extrapolate the standards here to general society is a real mistake.
now, the objections to my standpoint have been split kind of into two kinds of response, with roughly equal frequency:
1) "we know this. there's no point in haranguing us! but we think that society shouldn't be like this!"
and
2) "no it's not like you say. you don't know what the real world is like! you're old and wear a suit to work!"
I find it funny that the defense of man childism is the Michael Jackson defense. Don't judge me, you are all just ignorant, there is nothing wrong with this!
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I want to add - when you see an adult acting like a child how? Playing video games? Jumping on a bed? Dressing up? Painting their face for a sporting event? How arbitrary do you want to make that?
well, first off, I'm not making the rules. I'm just recounting my personal observations.
But to answer your question, there's a continuum, and over time things evolve and change. Time was, grown-up men did not wear shorts. It was seen as a garment for children. Now, grown-up men do wear shorts. Even to work, at least on the west coast, or so i'm told.
So if i personally were to rank your list, i could come up with my guess, but you're probably not actually interested in that.
"you're doing yourself a disservice. even those people who aren't physically snickering at you most likely think less of you as a result of how you present yourself.
also, it's annoying and kind of embarrassing to me."
yesterday i wore a batman shirt - in public! i didn't know i was supposed to feel emberrassed about it.
it shows some self esteem issues if you think that displaying some nerdity in a casual setting will turn you into a pariah.
unless you run around in complete cosplay or wear a superhero shirt to a funeral no one will give a shit. nobody is snickering, nobody is even looking at you.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Wait.. why is it "man-child"? I'm not about to go reading all 52 pages of this thread. Don't know if it's been covered.
Are women pardoned? Is it considered "cute" and "attractive" for women to be into "kiddie stuff" while men are looked down upon for it?
No, we also covered this. Women can be just as childish as men, although sometimes it manifests in different ways.
The chick at work who constantly tries to start drama with everyone else (especially other women) and goes around trying to play status/exclusion games like a high school freshman, and most everyone else hates her because she acts like she'd rather cause drama than do the job she's being paid to do? Total adult child. You run into these occasionally, especially if your profession or field is mainly done by women.
Dude, I work in nursing.
Shit gets bananas. The only saving grace is that I work in trauma ER, where the gender ratio is about 50-50.
Wait.. why is it "man-child"? I'm not about to go reading all 52 pages of this thread. Don't know if it's been covered.
Are women pardoned? Is it considered "cute" and "attractive" for women to be into "kiddie stuff" while men are looked down upon for it?
No, we also covered this. Women can be just as childish as men, although sometimes it manifests in different ways.
The chick at work who constantly tries to start drama with everyone else (especially other women) and goes around trying to play status/exclusion games like a high school freshman, and most everyone else hates her because she acts like she'd rather cause drama than do the job she's being paid to do? Total adult child. You run into these occasionally, especially if your profession or field is mainly done by women.
Dude, I work in nursing.
Shit gets bananas. The only saving grace is that I work in trauma ER, where the gender ratio is about 50-50.
My field (anthropology) is predominantly made up of women. It's been my experience that, if you're a dude, you never have to deal with any of it.
But if you're a woman, there's always that one chick in the department who has to play the stupid high school games and drive everybody else insane.
Wait.. why is it "man-child"? I'm not about to go reading all 52 pages of this thread. Don't know if it's been covered.
Are women pardoned? Is it considered "cute" and "attractive" for women to be into "kiddie stuff" while men are looked down upon for it?
No, we also covered this. Women can be just as childish as men, although sometimes it manifests in different ways.
The chick at work who constantly tries to start drama with everyone else (especially other women) and goes around trying to play status/exclusion games like a high school freshman, and most everyone else hates her because she acts like she'd rather cause drama than do the job she's being paid to do? Total adult child. You run into these occasionally, especially if your profession or field is mainly done by women.
Dude, I work in nursing.
Shit gets bananas. The only saving grace is that I work in trauma ER, where the gender ratio is about 50-50.
My field (anthropology) is predominantly made up of women. It's been my experience that, if you're a dude, you never have to deal with any of it.
But if you're a woman, there's always that one chick in the department who has to play the stupid high school games and drive everybody else insane.
When I worked at an NGO it was almost all women, and boy was that shit nuts. Constant drama. Even worse most were the "I have a masters but can't tie my fucking shoes, why am I serving coffee at meetings" type. Being one of the few straight men there, and working in IT, there was a constant queen bee fight over me. Trying to end run the system to get IT help, viciously fighting over who got the most attention, it was fucking insane.
It happened to a lot of the guys there as well. We were a rare commodity and staffed departments like office services, IT, accounting. So they'd constantly flirt to be "the one" that could get favors, and if you tried to steal their connection, watch out!
Not that men can't be bonkers as well. Working at the Navy and the Pentagon was a constant testosterone fest. It never reached that level of drama though.
Except nobody's been able to define a clear line as to what is and isn't appropriate outside of fuzzy preferences, like Ren Faire is somehow okay, and Stormtroopers are okay (maybe), and Snape just might be okay, but anime characters are definitely not, for no other reason than those who decree it so don't like anime. I'd love a list of exactly what I am and am not allowed to do to not be considered a freak, but I have the sneaking suspicion I'd get a different list depending on whom and where I polled.
Also, and perhaps because of the association mentioned above between cosplay and sexual deviancy, there seems to be an inability to imagine someone might dress up as a character they wouldn't have sex with, hence the pedoscary notions about HP cosplayers.
It's like saying that because some people have foot fetishes, anyone who really likes stilettos or platform shoes has a foot fetish. I mean, they might, but that's kind of a leap just to get the pleasure of judging someone.
social mores and guidelines are fuzzy preferences, like it or not. you don't get a list of things you are or aren't allowed to do. you have to observe your environment yourself and make your choice and roll the dice.
i can (and have!) expounded on my perception of where society's gonna come down. the general response has been "but that's not consistent! it's not faaiiirrr!!" And i guess it's neither, but it doesn't mean that it isn't what i understand to be pretty much the way things are. i absolutely agree that these have been based on my observations and are going to be different wherever you go and who you ask - shadows on the wall - but i still think that there will exist a basic social milieu that you have to consider wherever you go and whatever circles you run in.
and yeah in my view doing any of that nerd stuff is gonna be looked down on in most general social quarters. if i told someone at work that i had a larp costume or was a closet furry or went out to civil war reinactments or dressed up for anime conventions, it would be considered pretty fucking fishy even though i present myself professionally at work.
pedarasty doesn't necessarily leap to my mind as often as it does a lot of people. but when i see an adult acting like a child, it generally gives me a pretty negative general impression.
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
I basically agree with this post. I would not be uncivil to a guy flying his nerd flag - cat ears, superman cape, xkcd tee, whatever. But I also would think that he is probably making a poor decision and might think somewhat else of him.
I have friends who are this way. They're a little embarrassing, but that's their thing. I treat them with basic human respect and am their friend, even thought I disagree with their choice in apparel and am not super keen on going out in public with them.
you are blowing things way out of proportion.
are you seriously embarrassed of your friends if they dare to wear a geeky shirt? that actually reflects more poorly on you as a person than on them.
the percentage of people that strongly judge you because of some geeky token is marginally small. and those whose judgement actually effects your life is even smaller.
as i said, it shows some real lack of self esteem if you think you have to hide the fact that you are into video games for fear of (imagined) public ridecule.
i am not ashamed of my hobbies, because i am grown up enough to be secure in myself.
also nearly everybody is into some geeky stuff one way or another.
that dresden files book i got with me on the bus might even make a stranger start up a conversation.
You're basically right. Though I have yet to hear a good reason as to why the people in category #1 actually deserve any derision or the label of "man-child". 2 and 3 make sense. And sometimes, perhaps often, the people in 2 and 3 will also belong in group 1. But there's plenty of people from group one that are perfectly normal, mature people, who also like to watch anime or they collect transformers or they play a lot of video games or they read comic books. I don't really consider this childish behavior.
There's a difference between reading Naruto, and going outside to stage imaginary magical ninja-fights with your friends like it's recess at elementary school. There's a difference between posing figures to display them, and sitting at the table yelling "pew pew" with toys in your hands. Most mainstream comics are written for older fans and are filled with all kinds of things that little kids just shouldn't be exposed to...in fact one of the biggest complaints people have about the comics industry is that it's way too non-kid-friendly. Anime/manga is an incredibly diverse industry that covers all kinds of genres and demographics...saying that it's all childish is akin to saying all american animation is childish or all american network TV is for old people. Gamers are more commonly adults than they are kids, it's really hard for me to call the hobby childish when most of the people who partake in it are my age.
I think that someone that throws scorn at a person just because they read manga or collect action figures is morally in the wrong, and I think that we should work towards a society that doesn't behave like that. Just because these things are commonly seen as socially unacceptable or childish doesn't mean they SHOULD be. The real problem is people in the second and third groups. If someone can't interact in a social setting without dressing up like Naruto or blabbing about nothing but One Piece or Starcraft or Optimus Prime, that's a problem. If someone is so obsessed with WoW that they stop going to work, or loves Transformers so much that they use their rent payment to buy a Megatron, that's a problem. But everyone who watches cartoons or reads comics does not deserve to be dubbed a man-child and looked down on.
likewise, being a little bit into your infantile hobby, whatever it might be, isn't considered as bad as being way into your infantile hobby. reading mangas is one thing and dressing like mangas is something else. both are considered a little fishy, but the second is much worse.
How is reading manga an infantile hobby in the first place? This is what no one has explained. Everyone just says it is because it just is, basically. Saying manga is infantile is like saying novels are infantile. The content is so broad that painting it all with one brush like that is absolutely silly.
And explain to me how dressing up as a character you like at a convention is any more infantile than dressing up as something for Halloween. In both cases, it is people dressing up for an occasion where dressing up is considered part of the event. Like yeah, walking around the street dressed as Naruto is kinda weird, but lots of people, including people here, will see it at a convention and act all repulsed at it.
You see a lot of people who hate on someone who would dress as Batman at a comic con, but not if they dressed as Batman for Halloween. It's the same damn thing.
Basically, I think that people that are solely in your first group are not childish people at all, and don't deserve to be called that. I also think that most of these hobbies aren't childish at all, and only become that way when the person develops their hobby down the group 2 or 3 road. I have yet to hear a really good reason why things like anime, video games, figure collecting, etc. should inherently be considered childish. They ARE considered that way, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be.
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Apparently nobody disagrees with the definition of 'man-child' as a grownup with the self-centeredness of a child. Which I guess leaves arguing about clothes.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
1) people who are into stuff socially deemed as inappropriate (often kiddie stuff)
2) people who are obsessively into stuff, sometimes to the point of something resembling mental illness
3) people who have train-wreck lives, usually as a result of an unwillingness to take personal responsibility
i guess the prototypical "man-child" would include all three of these, but i'd propose that any one of these categories is met with derision in modern society. the common factor seems to be that there's a common thread of infantilization, mental illness and mental incapacity. in short, man-children come across as possibly deranged and childlike retards.
most of the defensive responses in this thread seem to be either:
1) defending one or more of these categories as benign or okay or cool or at least nothing to scorn
2) protesting the equivocation or the assumption of correlation between these categories
3) a reiteration of the stance that people who judge other people are "assholes"
so uh, i think maybe discussion could be directed from here? have i missed anyone's central contribution?
It's sad that it fits in one post.
that's why i make the big moderator bucks
Stereotypes! I can't smoke pot for fear of being confused with Seth Rogen!
Look at the commercial posted on the first page, the guy who "deserves a Klondike bar" because he, OMG, put his dish in the dishwasher. Although he's not into comics or toys, he is a man-child because doing even the smallest chore instead of letting Mommy--I mean, his wife--do it is utterly foreign to him.
Interesting counterpoint to this thread . . . I was on a forum today and one lady was complaining about her husband. Hubby wanted a very expensive "toy". ($20,000 item.) It was something that the wife wouldn't use / enjoy and that she felt they couldn't afford. She wanted to use the money for bills, college tuition for the kids, put it in the retirement fund, etc. As the thread progressed, it was revealed that for their entire 20+ year marriage, the husband had quite regularly bought expensive items for himself. He also had little financial sense (she provided some specific examples) and the wife was constantly having to prevent him from buying frivolous things they couldn't afford.
Although the husband is not "obsessed" with any particular hobby and presumably is socially functional, this spendthrift can't control his desires and must be restrained from running the couple into the ground financially by his wife. (This can also happen in reverse, where the husband has to be the adult who keeps the wife from spending on everything on things the couple can't afford--just so no one thinks I'm picking on guys.
I'm interested to hear if you guys would qualify him as a man-child. I would, of the "give that man a Klondike bar" variety. (Not as bad as the "nonfunctioning social recluse" man-child, but not a badge of honor either.) A lot of posters in the thread referred to the man's desired object as a "toy" and commented that he sounded "like a child / kind of childish / a silly child / etc." Or do you think he doesn't qualify at all?
He wasn't even putting the glass in the dishwasher for the sake of being helpful - he wanted a treat for his hard work. An ice cream bar.
Couldn't be more of a man-child. He's the embodiment of the unspoken definition.
You're basically right. Though I have yet to hear a good reason as to why the people in category #1 actually deserve any derision or the label of "man-child". 2 and 3 make sense. And sometimes, perhaps often, the people in 2 and 3 will also belong in group 1. But there's plenty of people from group one that are perfectly normal, mature people, who also like to watch anime or they collect transformers or they play a lot of video games or they read comic books. I don't really consider this childish behavior.
There's a difference between reading Naruto, and going outside to stage imaginary magical ninja-fights with your friends like it's recess at elementary school. There's a difference between posing figures to display them, and sitting at the table yelling "pew pew" with toys in your hands. Most mainstream comics are written for older fans and are filled with all kinds of things that little kids just shouldn't be exposed to...in fact one of the biggest complaints people have about the comics industry is that it's way too non-kid-friendly. Anime/manga is an incredibly diverse industry that covers all kinds of genres and demographics...saying that it's all childish is akin to saying all american animation is childish or all american network TV is for old people. Gamers are more commonly adults than they are kids, it's really hard for me to call the hobby childish when most of the people who partake in it are my age.
I think that someone that throws scorn at a person just because they read manga or collect action figures is morally in the wrong, and I think that we should work towards a society that doesn't behave like that. Just because these things are commonly seen as socially unacceptable or childish doesn't mean they SHOULD be. The real problem is people in the second and third groups. If someone can't interact in a social setting without dressing up like Naruto or blabbing about nothing but One Piece or Starcraft or Optimus Prime, that's a problem. If someone is so obsessed with WoW that they stop going to work, or loves Transformers so much that they use their rent payment to buy a Megatron, that's a problem. But everyone who watches cartoons or reads comics does not deserve to be dubbed a man-child and looked down on.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
They could lead fabulous lives if they've got someone to hold their hand forever.
that's probably better yeah. then it kind of encompasses mr. klondike bar
Are women pardoned? Is it considered "cute" and "attractive" for women to be into "kiddie stuff" while men are looked down upon for it?
well, what you're talking about is the distinction between type 1 and type 2 man-children i think.
granted, are definitely degrees. grown-ups who collect comic books are generally considered a little strange. it's unusual. but not as unusual as, say, collecting GI Joes, or strawberry shortcakes or my little ponies or cabbage patch dolls. grown-ups who watch the animes are considered a little strange, both because animation is kind of associated with kids in the US and because anime is associated with cartoon pornography and sexual deviants.
likewise, being a little bit into your infantile hobby, whatever it might be, isn't considered as bad as being way into your infantile hobby. reading mangas is one thing and dressing like mangas is something else. both are considered a little fishy, but the second is much worse.
The chick at work who constantly tries to start drama with everyone else (especially other women) and goes around trying to play status/exclusion games like a high school freshman, and most everyone else hates her because she acts like she'd rather cause drama than do the job she's being paid to do? Total adult child. You run into these occasionally, especially if your profession or field is mainly done by women.
Also, it was never really clear whether the endlessly-debated cat-eared person was a man or a woman, it seemed to vary depending on the poster.
And that would be an excellent example of people forming opinions based on misinformation. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be all, "whelp, that's what society thinks, what you gonna do?" without challenging that misinformation, instead of buying into it on these forums as well.
Except nobody's been able to define a clear line as to what is and isn't appropriate outside of fuzzy preferences, like Ren Faire is somehow okay, and Stormtroopers are okay (maybe), and Snape just might be okay, but anime characters are definitely not, for no other reason than those who decree it so don't like anime. I'd love a list of exactly what I am and am not allowed to do to not be considered a freak, but I have the sneaking suspicion I'd get a different list depending on whom and where I polled.
Also, and perhaps because of the association mentioned above between anime and sexual deviancy, there seems to be an inability to imagine someone might dress up as a character they wouldn't have sex with, hence the pedoscary notions about HP cosplayers.
It's like saying that because some people have foot fetishes, anyone who really likes stilettos or platform shoes has a foot fetish. I mean, they might, but that's kind of a leap just to get the pleasure of judging someone.
In Japan.
Unless the dudes in Japan also cuddle teddy bears in public in their 30s.
there was some mention of "twilight moms" and my little pony collectors
it's not a male-only phenomenon, but it's most associated with males
(also autism spectrum has a significantly higher diagnosis in males which may or may not be related)
All of these factors doubtless contribute to Japan's declining birth and marriage rate, and the delaying of marriage until later in life as people delay adulthood.
social mores and guidelines are fuzzy preferences, like it or not. you don't get a list of things you are or aren't allowed to do. you have to observe your environment yourself and make your choice and roll the dice.
i can (and have!) expounded on my perception of where society's gonna come down. the general response has been "but that's not consistent! it's not faaiiirrr!!" And i guess it's neither, but it doesn't mean that it isn't what i understand to be pretty much the way things are. i absolutely agree that these have been based on my observations and are going to be different wherever you go and who you ask - shadows on the wall - but i still think that there will exist a basic social milieu that you have to consider wherever you go and whatever circles you run in.
and yeah in my view doing any of that nerd stuff is gonna be looked down on in most general social quarters. if i told someone at work that i had a larp costume or was a closet furry or went out to civil war reinactments or dressed up for anime conventions, it would be considered pretty fucking fishy even though i present myself professionally at work.
pedarasty doesn't necessarily leap to my mind as often as it does a lot of people. but when i see an adult acting like a child, it generally gives me a pretty negative general impression.
There's a very big difference, in my mind, between knowing that going to Ren Faire OR dressing up like an HP character isn't generally respected in general society (which I am aware of), and coming to a messageboard based on a comic about videogames and finding some sort of nerd hierarchy imposed. "I know my hobbies are kind of weird, but I'm not THAT weirdo, holy shit is that a weirdo!"
Greater society imposing guidelines I can accept. Nerds imposing random guidelines based on their subculture of choice/shun makes me lol.
Edit: I want to add - when you see an adult acting like a child how? Playing video games? Jumping on a bed? Dressing up? Painting their face for a sporting event? How arbitrary do you want to make that?
well
while i do think that there's probably not only a kind of general "heirarchy of nerdy activities" in mainstream society as well as an intricate nerd pecking order within subcultures, that wasn't really my personal point in posting in this thread.
my personal point was just to underscore the fact that, while an online forum of supportive dorks is a fine escape, trying to extrapolate the standards here to general society is a real mistake.
now, the objections to my standpoint have been split kind of into two kinds of response, with roughly equal frequency:
1) "we know this. there's no point in haranguing us! but we think that society shouldn't be like this!"
and
2) "no it's not like you say. you don't know what the real world is like! you're old and wear a suit to work!"
sooo
well, first off, I'm not making the rules. I'm just recounting my personal observations.
But to answer your question, there's a continuum, and over time things evolve and change. Time was, grown-up men did not wear shorts. It was seen as a garment for children. Now, grown-up men do wear shorts. Even to work, at least on the west coast, or so i'm told.
So if i personally were to rank your list, i could come up with my guess, but you're probably not actually interested in that.
hey it's elki!
yesterday i wore a batman shirt - in public! i didn't know i was supposed to feel emberrassed about it.
it shows some self esteem issues if you think that displaying some nerdity in a casual setting will turn you into a pariah.
unless you run around in complete cosplay or wear a superhero shirt to a funeral no one will give a shit. nobody is snickering, nobody is even looking at you.
Dude, I work in nursing.
Shit gets bananas. The only saving grace is that I work in trauma ER, where the gender ratio is about 50-50.
My field (anthropology) is predominantly made up of women. It's been my experience that, if you're a dude, you never have to deal with any of it.
But if you're a woman, there's always that one chick in the department who has to play the stupid high school games and drive everybody else insane.
When I worked at an NGO it was almost all women, and boy was that shit nuts. Constant drama. Even worse most were the "I have a masters but can't tie my fucking shoes, why am I serving coffee at meetings" type. Being one of the few straight men there, and working in IT, there was a constant queen bee fight over me. Trying to end run the system to get IT help, viciously fighting over who got the most attention, it was fucking insane.
It happened to a lot of the guys there as well. We were a rare commodity and staffed departments like office services, IT, accounting. So they'd constantly flirt to be "the one" that could get favors, and if you tried to steal their connection, watch out!
Not that men can't be bonkers as well. Working at the Navy and the Pentagon was a constant testosterone fest. It never reached that level of drama though.
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
I like the cruel machine called society. If I become a member and conform, I don't have to worry about bandits and foreign invaders.
So it's complicated when a man gets annoyed at a woman for being childish.
On one hand acting emotionally childish (still rejecting the cat-ears crap) is bad.
On the other hand women are sometimes forced into it by social pressures.
It only has a gender after you open the box.
you are blowing things way out of proportion.
are you seriously embarrassed of your friends if they dare to wear a geeky shirt? that actually reflects more poorly on you as a person than on them.
the percentage of people that strongly judge you because of some geeky token is marginally small. and those whose judgement actually effects your life is even smaller.
as i said, it shows some real lack of self esteem if you think you have to hide the fact that you are into video games for fear of (imagined) public ridecule.
i am not ashamed of my hobbies, because i am grown up enough to be secure in myself.
also nearly everybody is into some geeky stuff one way or another.
that dresden files book i got with me on the bus might even make a stranger start up a conversation.
Remind me never to piss him off.
But, but, but what about this...
How is reading manga an infantile hobby in the first place? This is what no one has explained. Everyone just says it is because it just is, basically. Saying manga is infantile is like saying novels are infantile. The content is so broad that painting it all with one brush like that is absolutely silly.
And explain to me how dressing up as a character you like at a convention is any more infantile than dressing up as something for Halloween. In both cases, it is people dressing up for an occasion where dressing up is considered part of the event. Like yeah, walking around the street dressed as Naruto is kinda weird, but lots of people, including people here, will see it at a convention and act all repulsed at it.
You see a lot of people who hate on someone who would dress as Batman at a comic con, but not if they dressed as Batman for Halloween. It's the same damn thing.
Basically, I think that people that are solely in your first group are not childish people at all, and don't deserve to be called that. I also think that most of these hobbies aren't childish at all, and only become that way when the person develops their hobby down the group 2 or 3 road. I have yet to hear a really good reason why things like anime, video games, figure collecting, etc. should inherently be considered childish. They ARE considered that way, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog