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Cutting the [US Military Budget]: Nothing is Sacred

AeneasAeneas Registered User regular
edited October 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
With the economy in the slumps, what used to be considered unassailable, the US military budget, is now due for some cuts. We got a taste of this with the halt in production of the F-22, and there are many other future weapon systems that may face the chopping block (the new Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle for the Marines, the next gen destroyer for the Navy). Secretary Gates is also looking to save money by trimming down the bureaucracy at the Pentagon.

Though I don't agree with all the cuts, I for one applaud Secretary Gates for aggressively pursuing these measures. Funny thing is, many defense industry companies also seem down for budget reduction (their rationale being better to make some smart cuts now rather than something dramatic and painful later). The only question now seems to be what would be a prudent cut and what would drastically reduce our warfighting capability?

The US military budget is 40% of the world's total defense spending. On paper, that may seem like a lot, but the funny thing is, even with our massive budget, the US military is far from being some ultimate, unbeatable juggernaut. Other countries are catching up to, or even surpassing us, in many areas. Our legacy fighter aircraft are outmatched by new Sukhoi aircraft and modern European designs like the Eurofighter. China's navy has blossomed into a modern force with a ballistic anti-ship missile in the works that can completely negate a carrier's range advantage. Our infantry in Afghanistan are using the same battle rifle that was used in Vietnam. We're far from being at the top of the mountain, and care must be taken that any defense cuts we initiate do not bring us further down.

I think one area that could use some significant scrutiny is how we do business with private companies. Ask anyone in the military about ordering some part or component, and he or she could tell you how it was late, a generation or two behind what you can find in commercial stores, and ridiculously overpriced. I was recently onboard the USS Carl Vinson, an aircraft carrier that spent five years getting refurbished in the docks. I naively expected everything to be brand new, with gleaming p-ways and that delicious new car smell wafting through the air. Needless to say, my expectations were dashed as soon as I stepped aboard. According to some sailors I talked to, the ship wasn't even done, and they had to re-tile some floors as well as finish up some other work that we already paid some stupid company to do. It seems to me that there's a ridiculous level of corruption and inefficiency with private contractor companies, but how best to combat that when it seems so deeply entrenched and everyone's attitude is "Oh well, that's how it's always been"?

Besides fighting corruption, where else can the US military tighten its belt? Should we continue to chop new weapon system developments? Should we cut down bases or maybe even decrease our presence overseas? Though I know politics are deeply entwined with military ventures, please try to keep this discussion as apolitical as you can.

Hear about the cow that tried to jump over a barbed-wire fence? It was udder disaster.
Aeneas on
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Posts

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The Air Force and Army were fighting between preparing for "The Future War" vs "The War We Are Fighting Now." Looks like Now won.

    Cantido on
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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The big stink the ending production of the F-22 was really embarrassing, because the whole thing was based on tradition / symbolism. If you want symbolism, put it in a museum. We need advances in our military's tools and weapons, but they need to be practical advances.

    Henroid on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Jesus Christ don't even get me started on the M-16.

    What a piece of shit. It's only like, 5 times larger than it actually needs to be, but hey, that means it's comfortable for a 6'5" goon with gorilla arms to aim.

    And if you're not well then tough.

    Regina Fong on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Besides fighting corruption, where else can the US military tighten its belt? Should we continue to chop new weapon system developments? Should we cut down bases or maybe even decrease our presence overseas? Though I know politics are deeply entwined with military ventures, please try to keep this discussion as apolitical as you can.

    A good start is doing for members of the military what we should do for members of Congress as far as bans on lobbying jobs go.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    What exactly are we spending $515 billion dollars on?

    I mean, seriously, where the hell is all that money going to? Anybody haves any charts or tables that outlines where all this cash is going?

    Casually Hardcore on
  • FallingmanFallingman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    It would be interesting to compare what the US gets in terms of "Bang for buck" on its spending on external contracts.

    Fallingman on
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  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Oh sweet, Wikipedia haves a pretty good breakdown:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

    Casually Hardcore on
  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    We could stop paying billions for that missile defense system that can't hit incoming missiles.

    Of course, the DoD probably would argue it fails because we aren't spending ENOUGH.

    RUNN1NGMAN on
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Taking care of veterans for the health / education is part of military spending too, right?

    Henroid on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Henroid wrote: »
    Taking care of veterans for the health / education is part of military spending too, right?

    I THINK it's counted separately but I'm not 100% sure.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    It depends on who is doing the counting, I believe.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Oh, well fuck. I was trying to see how much of military spending goes toward that.

    Henroid on
  • Dr Mario KartDr Mario Kart Games Dealer Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Why do we need a plane that can keep up with Russian or European planes? Let them waste the money. If we get into a real fight with a nuclear power, I dont think those planes will do us much good.

    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Dr Mario Kart on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    Saint Madness on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Henroid wrote: »
    Oh, well fuck. I was trying to see how much of military spending goes toward that.
    The VA budget is $112.8 billion for 2010.

    Half of that is discretionary.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    But then those countries will fall to Communism and where will we be then?

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.
    I doubt it really has to be said that we don't necessarily have troops in those countries to help with their security.

    Yay for 70 year old fallout.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    You guys just don't understand geo-politics.

    We're still fighting the Cold War in a lot of ways, and only recently figured out what "FUTUREWAR" will be like. But you can't just turn this around without a shit ton of people losing money/jobs/whatever.

    Look at that damn chart. I couldn't tell you which parts of it are redundant, and I bet neither could the people who ultimately sign off on it. Plus, a Congressman who wants 'x' built in his district isn't going to care about all the other steps it takes to get it there, as long as he can smile for some cameras.

    Malkor on
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  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    But then those countries will fall to Communism and where will we be then?

    Then we get to live Red Alert!

    Saint Madness on
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Jesus Christ don't even get me started on the M-16.

    What a piece of shit. It's only like, 5 times larger than it actually needs to be, but hey, that means it's comfortable for a 6'5" goon with gorilla arms to aim.

    And if you're not well then tough.

    That thingy in the front? It's for bayonets.

    Yes, our guns can still attach bayonets. An NCO told me if you ever hear the command Affix Bayonets it's time to quit. :D

    Cantido on
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  • SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    But then those countries will fall to Communism and where will we be then?

    Those bases are huge strategic advantages. We wouldn't be able to pursue wars on the other side of the world without bases like those in Germany.

    Smurph on
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Smurph wrote: »
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    But then those countries will fall to Communism and where will we be then?

    Those bases are huge strategic advantages. We wouldn't be able to pursue wars on the other side of the world without bases like those in Germany.

    This. Germany is the gateway to the Area of Responsibility.

    Cantido on
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  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Cantido wrote: »
    Jesus Christ don't even get me started on the M-16.

    What a piece of shit. It's only like, 5 times larger than it actually needs to be, but hey, that means it's comfortable for a 6'5" goon with gorilla arms to aim.

    And if you're not well then tough.

    That thingy in the front? It's for bayonets.

    Yes, our guns can still attach bayonets. An NCO told me if you ever hear the command Affix Bayonets it's time to quit. :D

    Didn't someone here tell a story about British soldiers charging the Taliban successfully after they ran out of ammunition?

    I'm pretty sure it was somewhere here.

    Malkor on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Smurph wrote: »
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    But then those countries will fall to Communism and where will we be then?

    Those bases are huge strategic advantages. We wouldn't be able to pursue wars on the other side of the world without bases like those in Germany.

    This is not exactly a winning argument to me. It is in fact, quite the opposite.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    You guys just don't understand geo-politics.

    We're still fighting the Cold War in a lot of ways, and only recently figured out what "FUTUREWAR" will be like. But you can't just turn this around without a shit ton of people losing money/jobs/whatever.

    Look at that damn chart. I couldn't tell you which parts of it are redundant, and I bet neither could the people who ultimately sign off on it. Plus, a Congressman who wants 'x' built in his district isn't going to care about all the other steps it takes to get it there, as long as he can smile for some cameras.

    I just looked at that chart you linked and I got a major headache

    Buttcleft on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" is the only thing I can think of after seeing that chart.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Cutting the military would absolutely cost us tons of jobs.

    But, aside from the ones that are helping elevate low income teens and such, we should maybe as ourselves if they're the kind of jobs we really want to be funding.

    For decades now, that's just not a question that's gotten asked.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" is the only thing I can think of after seeing that chart.

    I read this in Leonard Niymoy's voice.

    Saint Madness on
  • MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    we should maybe as ourselves if they're the kind of jobs we really want to be funding.
    Eisenhower wrote:
    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

    something like that.

    MrMister on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    we should maybe as ourselves if they're the kind of jobs we really want to be funding.
    Eisenhower wrote:
    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

    something like that.

    MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX

    I knew my post was missing something.

    Malkor on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" is the only thing I can think of after seeing that chart.

    I read this in Leonard Niymoy's voice.

    Obviously.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    God damn do I miss Eisenhower Republicans.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    they really need to reign in the contractors

    like the f-22 didn't need to cost so much

    shit like spreading the production across 48 states to secure political support should not be tolerated

    nexuscrawler on
  • TarranonTarranon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Smurph wrote: »
    Surely we dont need all those bases we have all around the world. I dont know how much they cost, but it cant be cheap to house 50,000 troops in Germany, and another 50,000 in Japan.

    Germany has one of the best equipped armies in the world.

    The US presence in Japan has cause a hilarious amount of political turmoil.

    So yeah, bring them home.

    But then those countries will fall to Communism and where will we be then?

    Those bases are huge strategic advantages. We wouldn't be able to pursue wars on the other side of the world without bases like those in Germany.

    This is not exactly a winning argument to me. It is in fact, quite the opposite.

    Even if we use it irresponsibly from time to time, the ability to project power is pretty important for world order, and once logistics lines are cut, they are exponentially more expensive to reinstate should we ever need them.

    So basically out of the dozens of things we can cut, I'd rather it not be our ability to project ourselves. We can't afford to live like isolationists. But we can certainly afford to be more multilateral.

    Also the Economist did a pretty great piece on the exponentially rising real prices in military technology

    http://www.economist.com/node/16886851?story_id=16886851
    Manpower in all-volunteer armies, as most Western ones are these days, is expensive. Pay has to be competitive. In America, moreover, a big burden is the cost of health-care programmes for current and former servicemen, and their families. “Health-care costs are eating the defence department alive,” complains Mr Gates. Yet he has a hard time restraining Congress’s generosity to soldiers and veterans.

    One response to high manpower costs is to rely on technology. But that does not come cheap. Study after study shows that the price of combat aircraft has been rising substantially faster than inflation, often faster than GDP. The same is true of warships. In a book published in 1983, Norman Augustine, a luminary of the aerospace industry, drafted a series of lighthearted “laws”. In one aphorism, he plotted the exponential growth of unit cost for fighter aircraft since 1910 (see chart 2), and extrapolated it to its absurd conclusion:

    “In the year 2054, the entire defence budget will purchase just one aircraft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy 3½ days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day.”

    Tarranon on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    As I said, I suspect it would help if we ended the revolving door between the Pentagon and lobbyists/defense contractors.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The Air Force shut down their entire OTS. The only way to be an officer is through ROTC and the Academy, and if your grades slip up once and change your graduation date, you're out. Scary stuff for me actually.

    Cantido on
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  • NartwakNartwak Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    they really need to reign in the contractors
    b-b-b-but the free market nexuscrawler...

    Nartwak on
  • Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    You guys just don't understand geo-politics.

    We're still fighting the Cold War in a lot of ways, and only recently figured out what "FUTUREWAR" will be like. But you can't just turn this around without a shit ton of people losing money/jobs/whatever.

    Look at that damn chart. I couldn't tell you which parts of it are redundant, and I bet neither could the people who ultimately sign off on it. Plus, a Congressman who wants 'x' built in his district isn't going to care about all the other steps it takes to get it there, as long as he can smile for some cameras.

    gotta love the horse blanket!

    to answer your question: none of it is 'redundant'

    Dunadan019 on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Dunadan019 wrote: »
    Malkor wrote: »
    You guys just don't understand geo-politics.

    We're still fighting the Cold War in a lot of ways, and only recently figured out what "FUTUREWAR" will be like. But you can't just turn this around without a shit ton of people losing money/jobs/whatever.

    Look at that damn chart. I couldn't tell you which parts of it are redundant, and I bet neither could the people who ultimately sign off on it. Plus, a Congressman who wants 'x' built in his district isn't going to care about all the other steps it takes to get it there, as long as he can smile for some cameras.

    gotta love the horse blanket!

    to answer your question: none of it is 'redundant'

    Even the TRR or TRA?

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Jesus Christ don't even get me started on the M-16.

    What a piece of shit. It's only like, 5 times larger than it actually needs to be, but hey, that means it's comfortable for a 6'5" goon with gorilla arms to aim.

    And if you're not well then tough.

    That thingy in the front? It's for bayonets.

    Yes, our guns can still attach bayonets. An NCO told me if you ever hear the command Affix Bayonets it's time to quit. :D

    Didn't someone here tell a story about British soldiers charging the Taliban successfully after they ran out of ammunition?

    I'm pretty sure it was somewhere here.

    Those guys were scottish, and to be fair, they were fighting inside in urban conditions so they had an advantage there. Did I mention they were scottish?

    Demiurge on
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