Will, what makes me even more mad than this whole debate is the fact that it is even happening in the first place. Why do you give a shit if it's genetic? What does this prove about black people if it is? What would that mean we should do with them? Should we start treating them differently?
I'm arguing from my perspective because I know that there are plenty of factors that make up a person, that race as viewed by society is largely a rigid construct that's in reality very fluid, and I know from history and from personal experience how people are treated when a perceived innate racial flaw is assumed to be the predominant makeup of their being, and I believe that all people deserve to be treated with respect. Why do you care?
i actually don't care at all, and don't really believe that there's any significant genetic difference in cross-racial intelligence.
i just didn't like what i saw as the smug self-congratulatory sophistry being trotted out as an enlightened liberal viewpoint regarding "racism" or "sexism" or whatever else. it stank to me.
now, i do think that there are probably some general cross-gender behavioral tendencies, which i guess is what was originally being talked about before this racial thing became the focus.
Irond Will on
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Can silver members on live join parties to chat?
Just wondering because Preach if DR2 comes in today we can play but I want the wife to be able to get on the chat's with us.
Just realized i was being a doof and was going to do my yard work during the hottest part of the day and I was going to work on my resume when it was nice and cool in the evening.
I have now swapped the order of operations.
Inquisitor on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Will, nobody here is claiming that groups don't tend to have genetic trends. The problem is that there are plenty of other, greater influences on what makes a person who they are, and automatically judging someone based on the color of their skin without taking into account any other factor is, in fact racist.
If you meet a black person who is not exceptionally bright, you would be racist to assume it's because of a genetic marker present in all black people. Maybe their family wasn't involved in their education! Maybe school just didn't catch their interest! Maybe it was a crappy school! WHO KNOWS.
well, i absolutely agree with this.
in fact, this was my position from page 1.
my position has always been that consideration of the possibility of cross-race genetic differences was not, in of itself, racist.
whereas feral's position was that this was racist in the context of black people and IQ tests.
Actually, it kind of is. Because then you have to scramble to explain those differences.
I dare you to find a way to explain them that isn't A) racist and doesn't invoke social factors, which invalidates the first point.
consideration of a possibility doesn't connote to me any more a burden to explain than the assertions of test bias or whatever else, and i don't really think it necessarily imputes racism.
@Arch: it's never racist to ask questions. Asking a question can't be racist, unless it implies a value statement like "why are Jews so terrible?"
A question like "could it be that darker skinned people have lower/higher [characteristic] in comparison to lighter skinned people?" is not racist.
Alright, provide a framework for this trait to have arisen when it is not easily deduced from environmental effects (sickle cell, melanin production) without being racist.
In my edit I did say it would be a pretty dumb question to ask. Still not going to say it's racist though.
I feel like racism has to come to mean "pointing out differences between population groups" on these forums instead of "belief that one population group is intrinsically superior to another". This is annoying, just like "tolerance" as come to interpreted as "acceptance".
Why did you wonder this in the first place? Why do you care? How are you going to explain it?
Perhaps you observed a pattern in the real world and wanted to test it?
In other news, it's going to be exciting in a couple of million/hundreds of millions of years when we've got all kinds of interesting branchings of the human race.
i actually don't care at all, and don't really believe that there's any significant genetic difference in cross-racial intelligence.
i just didn't like what i saw as the smug self-congratulatory sophistry being trotted out as an enlightened liberal viewpoint regarding "racism" or "sexism" or whatever else. it stank to me.
now, i do think that there are probably some general cross-gender behavioral tendencies, which i guess is what was originally being talked about before this racial thing became the focus.
As a self-proclaimed enlightened leftist, I don't care particularly much about the exact reasons as to why men and woman might be different, or blacks and whites.
I do, however, care a great deal about how people perceive these differences and use them as an excuse to treat those they view as innately different or inferior with disrespect.
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Man, I just finished a math class and you guys are still talking about something!
Just wondering because Preach if DR2 comes in today we can play but I want the wife to be able to get on the chat's with us.
I have no idea, thats a good question.
They can't.
Damn. Thanks nerd, for breaking my dreams.
Man that's some bullshit right there yo
Its ok, if your headset is anything like mine your wife can just talk into the mike, though I guess that would make it hard to hear me responding... Fuck.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Will, nobody here is claiming that groups don't tend to have genetic trends. The problem is that there are plenty of other, greater influences on what makes a person who they are, and automatically judging someone based on the color of their skin without taking into account any other factor is, in fact racist.
If you meet a black person who is not exceptionally bright, you would be racist to assume it's because of a genetic marker present in all black people. Maybe their family wasn't involved in their education! Maybe school just didn't catch their interest! Maybe it was a crappy school! WHO KNOWS.
well, i absolutely agree with this.
in fact, this was my position from page 1.
my position has always been that consideration of the possibility of cross-race genetic differences was not, in of itself, racist.
whereas feral's position was that this was racist in the context of black people and IQ tests.
Actually, it kind of is. Because then you have to scramble to explain those differences.
I dare you to find a way to explain them that isn't A) racist and doesn't invoke social factors, which invalidates the first point.
consideration of a possibility doesn't connote to me any more a burden to explain than the assertions of test bias or whatever else, and i don't really think it necessarily imputes racism.
So lets say you consider the possibility, and as daxon said, you noticed that african americans perform worse on tests of mathematical aptitude than non african americans. Your first impulse is to test the genetics and not the social factors that placed them there?
Seems a bit like you aren't really paying a lot of attention.
Maybe racist isn't the word, but it is definitely a misappropriation of the situation.
But then you are going to say "but now you are ignoring genetics blah blah"
No. The point is that you have to eliminate all other factors before you can ascribe behavior strictly to genetics, and in the context of all the things we describe, that is just not possible.
Just wondering because Preach if DR2 comes in today we can play but I want the wife to be able to get on the chat's with us.
I have no idea, thats a good question.
They can't.
Damn. Thanks nerd, for breaking my dreams.
Man that's some bullshit right there yo
Its ok, if your headset is anything like mine your wife can just talk into the mike, though I guess that would make it hard to hear me responding... Fuck.
related to that, is there any way to crank up the sound of people speaking? I can't hear leitner beyond a very very queit whisper
Abdhyius on
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LudiousI just wanted a sandwich A temporally dislocated QuiznosRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Will just wants to prove that antisocial geeks are genetically inferior
Will, what makes me even more mad than this whole debate is the fact that it is even happening in the first place. Why do you give a shit if it's genetic? What does this prove about black people if it is? What would that mean we should do with them? Should we start treating them differently?
I'm arguing from my perspective because I know that there are plenty of factors that make up a person, that race as viewed by society is largely a rigid construct that's in reality very fluid, and I know from history and from personal experience how people are treated when a perceived innate racial flaw is assumed to be the predominant makeup of their being, and I believe that all people deserve to be treated with respect. Why do you care?
i actually don't care at all, and don't really believe that there's any significant genetic difference in cross-racial intelligence.
i just didn't like what i saw as the smug self-congratulatory sophistry being trotted out as an enlightened liberal viewpoint regarding "racism" or "sexism" or whatever else. it stank to me.
now, i do think that there are probably some general cross-gender behavioral tendencies, which i guess is what was originally being talked about before this racial thing became the focus.
Yeah, I agree here.
Will I don't think there's really that much disagreement going on, as I think Feral was specifically referring to one instance where the evidence so thin and the concept so implausible that asking the question really is pretty racist in that specific instance.
Whereas on the other hand I'm pretty inclined to believe that there are differences in behavior between men and women that are biological in origin. But that's based on some pretty good empirical evidence (please ignore the crap published in popular magazines), and the conceptual underpinning that such a thing not being true would make us literally the only mammalian species on earth without some sex-differentiated behaviors.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
See you can join parties now though without playing the same game, so you'd think it would work.
We can test it out and see. She's got an account, it's just not on gold because she never plays online.
I guess my point is that, as someone who is intensely concerned with evolution, and whose driving question is "how did this trait arise?", I can't seem to come up with any sort of logical reason that, say, a woman, or an asian would do better or worse at something like math without invoking some sort of outside influence that precludes a genetic explanation.
in fairness, sickle cell anemia was noted to be common in people of north-african descent long before the causal vector was established.
it strikes me that you're holding a much higher bar for considerations of genetic differences than you are socio-economic or cultural causes, which you generally heartily endorse with naught but a handwave.
Posts
Why did you wonder this in the first place? Why do you care? How are you going to explain it?
that's not exactly their best song
my mother in law was a guard at a male prison for years and she held her own just fine
First, let us ask a question
"Can African American intelligence be correlated to genetics?"
I don't feel this is a legitimate question, and I don't think it can ever really be asked in good faith.
And if you just jump to the next step, I think it infers a huge confirmation bias.
I can verify this
my boundaries were challenged
i actually don't care at all, and don't really believe that there's any significant genetic difference in cross-racial intelligence.
i just didn't like what i saw as the smug self-congratulatory sophistry being trotted out as an enlightened liberal viewpoint regarding "racism" or "sexism" or whatever else. it stank to me.
now, i do think that there are probably some general cross-gender behavioral tendencies, which i guess is what was originally being talked about before this racial thing became the focus.
Just wondering because Preach if DR2 comes in today we can play but I want the wife to be able to get on the chat's with us.
Suddenly it becomes apparent how I avoid bans...
pleasepaypreacher.net
No chisel mode, though, and I'd need to get a couple of batteries and a charger.
I have no idea, thats a good question.
pleasepaypreacher.net
or, well, "he no longer works here" but yeah, since he left on the day I'm pretty damn sure he didn't quit voluntarily
They can't.
I have now swapped the order of operations.
consideration of a possibility doesn't connote to me any more a burden to explain than the assertions of test bias or whatever else, and i don't really think it necessarily imputes racism.
Tell that to Jacob.
In my edit I did say it would be a pretty dumb question to ask. Still not going to say it's racist though.
I feel like racism has to come to mean "pointing out differences between population groups" on these forums instead of "belief that one population group is intrinsically superior to another". This is annoying, just like "tolerance" as come to interpreted as "acceptance".
Perhaps you observed a pattern in the real world and wanted to test it?
In other news, it's going to be exciting in a couple of million/hundreds of millions of years when we've got all kinds of interesting branchings of the human race.
Most of the stuff on the surface of the forest moon was bad, but the rest is really good. I'd say it's at least as good as empire.
I liked the part where all the ewoks die
Damn. Thanks nerd, for breaking my dreams.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Man that's some bullshit right there yo
I would think not since I don't think you can stick with a party while they're playing a game you don't have, for example
There is no contest.
As a self-proclaimed enlightened leftist, I don't care particularly much about the exact reasons as to why men and woman might be different, or blacks and whites.
I do, however, care a great deal about how people perceive these differences and use them as an excuse to treat those they view as innately different or inferior with disrespect.
Its ok, if your headset is anything like mine your wife can just talk into the mike, though I guess that would make it hard to hear me responding... Fuck.
pleasepaypreacher.net
They're certainly talking about something alright.
Your opinion is correct.
So lets say you consider the possibility, and as daxon said, you noticed that african americans perform worse on tests of mathematical aptitude than non african americans. Your first impulse is to test the genetics and not the social factors that placed them there?
Seems a bit like you aren't really paying a lot of attention.
Maybe racist isn't the word, but it is definitely a misappropriation of the situation.
But then you are going to say "but now you are ignoring genetics blah blah"
No. The point is that you have to eliminate all other factors before you can ascribe behavior strictly to genetics, and in the context of all the things we describe, that is just not possible.
related to that, is there any way to crank up the sound of people speaking? I can't hear leitner beyond a very very queit whisper
I never got the boner for empire that others have. I prefered RoTJ or even New Hope over it, though I do like Two Towers the best of the LOTR movies.
pleasepaypreacher.net
What is with this place and talking about something.
Yeah, I agree here.
Will I don't think there's really that much disagreement going on, as I think Feral was specifically referring to one instance where the evidence so thin and the concept so implausible that asking the question really is pretty racist in that specific instance.
Whereas on the other hand I'm pretty inclined to believe that there are differences in behavior between men and women that are biological in origin. But that's based on some pretty good empirical evidence (please ignore the crap published in popular magazines), and the conceptual underpinning that such a thing not being true would make us literally the only mammalian species on earth without some sex-differentiated behaviors.
We can test it out and see. She's got an account, it's just not on gold because she never plays online.
I think he just talks quiet, I swear when I played with him it as like I as in church.
pleasepaypreacher.net
in fairness, sickle cell anemia was noted to be common in people of north-african descent long before the causal vector was established.
it strikes me that you're holding a much higher bar for considerations of genetic differences than you are socio-economic or cultural causes, which you generally heartily endorse with naught but a handwave.
oh you can?
Well then it might just work
Oh my.