You gotta start somewhere and evolve and you learn what works and what doesn't. The same way all industries have. Right now next to nothing is being done in far too many school districts and while teachers still get paid and many can't get fired test scores are dropping and drop-out rates are skyrocketing.
Throughout the 90s we were told the government doesn't spend enough. Well we've been dumping trillions into public schools the last 20 years and things are getting worse not better.
Drop out rate in Baltimore has fallen 50% in the last three years.
Good on you and your peers but it has gone up nationally I believe for the third straight year and in some cities it's down right appalling.
The result, according to a new report, is that overall high-school drop-out rates have risen for the second year in a row, after nearly a decade of improvement and increased national attention.
Also the demographic shifts have been getting worse for a long time.
If you want to read through it all to get the numbers from 08-09/09-10 years by all means. But I proved my point.
Your study doesn't take into account student who dropout and get a GED or some sort of equivalency degree. And bases there numbers off of 2007's rates
produced by Editorial Projects in Education, is based on reviews of graduation data from 2007
So yeah, there ya go sweetheart.
You realize that not everyone who drops out does it out of choice?
Moreover, what incentive is there for staying in lower performing schools or even starting there if you it will be a revolving door of teachers and admin for the foreseeable future?
Better pay. Same way industries get people to work in less desirable conditions/places. Pay them better but build a situation where that's justifiable. Increase pay and get rid of bulletproof job security and stupid benefits no other job has like being able to save all your sick days for decades and retire with them.
There is title I money, but that isn't much. Moreover, I can now say because my school GETS results, and I do just as much as that person because that school got labeled trouble they get more?
Can you rephrase that? I don't get exactly what you are saying.
What if that school turns it around and moves off this hypothetical list - do they get to keep that combat pay?
Yes. If schools improve it helps build up the community which brings more tax payers to your town and increases enrollment.
But that doesn't happen and you know it. Its not like that happens over night, long-term population shifts take years, if not decades to reverse. Being around Cleveland I would think you would understand that.
Cleveland is a shrinking city for many reasons but not the least of which is shitty education forces families to send their kids elsewhere.
You can't just throw money at the problem, eventually it runs out.
I'm certainly not recommending throwing more money at under-performing schools. I'm saying restructure the pay in a way that makes the job attractive, rewards good work, and save money by getting rid of horseshit benefits and horseshit teachers.
give more money to teachers at persistently bad schools - but hold them to the same standards of the kids at the college bound engineering magnet school who's teachers get more money because their kids perform at a higher level.
I don't know about the same standards. The point is they have to show improvement.
The engineering teachers deserve more money because they teach a specialized field. But the US History teachers get crap because it is not a tested field.
Isn't that the problem we're all trying to remedy?
The Government Teachers get more money, but what about teacher that teach both government AND US History?
Uh...pay them more for doing more?
But the money eventually RUNS OUT. No one wants to pay higher taxes to fund schools this is what you are forgetting. I get paid fairly well in the City, but in one of the counties, where I grew up, a first year teacher makes 10K less than an average salary in the US. Moreover, I am forced to get a masters degree to keep my certification. Average salary for someone with a masters degree 60K +, in the county I grew up in you have to teach for more than 15 years, before you even start to sniff that money.
Harford County actually had to cut teacher's salaries two percent last year.
But it is the tone of their argument that is pissing people off. "We're Worth More." That's their new slogan.
It's not new. It's been their position for as long as I have been alive at least.
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!
I heard that at the last fundraiser bullshit I went to for my son's school and I wanted to vomit.
It's not just that. I can think of so many instances where teachers of mine have told me straight up that they are the most important profession in society and education is priceless and blah blah blah.
Yes education is important and a good teacher is a great thing but it's also a rare thing. There are tons of shitty, easily replaced educators and that's why so many of them get paid like shit.
But it is the tone of their argument that is pissing people off. "We're Worth More." That's their new slogan.
It's not new. It's been their position for as long as I have been alive at least.
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!
I heard that at the last fundraiser bullshit I went to for my son's school and I wanted to vomit.
It's not just that. I can think of so many instances where teachers of mine have told me straight up that they are the most important profession in society and education is priceless and blah blah blah.
Yes education is important and a good teacher is a great thing but it's also a rare thing. There are tons of shitty, easily replaced educators and that's why so many of them get paid like shit.
Yes see I can understand this angle
It's like soldiers and cops, I respect the military and the law enforcement services a great deal but being a soldier is not a free pass- there are good soldiers and there a bad soldiers and that's why we have courts-martial and investigations and what not in the first place
Also my sister is in HR at a hospital and from what I hear doctors are frequently self-entitled pricks: so I guess what I'm saying is that self-entitled pricks are self-entitled pricks even if they're saving lies. Not that I'd dream of suggesting that the screening/review process for medical practioners is less vigorous than that which teachers undergo
But it is the tone of their argument that is pissing people off. "We're Worth More." That's their new slogan.
It's not new. It's been their position for as long as I have been alive at least.
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!
I heard that at the last fundraiser bullshit I went to for my son's school and I wanted to vomit.
It's not just that. I can think of so many instances where teachers of mine have told me straight up that they are the most important profession in society and education is priceless and blah blah blah.
Yes education is important and a good teacher is a great thing but it's also a rare thing. There are tons of shitty, easily replaced educators and that's why so many of them get paid like shit.
Butters do you seriously think that it wouldn't be easier to get and hang on to good teachers if you paid them more? I'm as tired of the whiny attitude of entitlement that some teachers have as the next guy but I've also seen that the schools that have the most need are often the least able to pay good people what they deserve and I think that's a problem.
FortyTwo, can you honestly say with a straight face that GEDs are the answer to a troubled school district's dropout problem? Seriously?
I didn't SAY it was the answer I said that my study included GED and other equivalencies and yours did not. Therefore the discrepancy.
Also, your numbers are projections based on 2007 graduation numbers.
My study looked at how many people dropped out and failed to obtain anything, yours just looked at who failed to graduate and stops there. It also makes the assumption that since it goes off of 2007 numbers the "recession isn't a factor" sure, its not like the recession's effects weren't being felt in 2007 or anything. Whatever to that.
That's why you are payed to do it. Nobody would put up with the bullshit for free. Setting up an ISO 17205 laboratory is hard. It took about a decade. Now that it's all here and all the documentation is completed, all procedures in place, and systems to guide new work and new employees it's not bad.
No one thinks it will happen over night. Well, some people do and they're stupid. My point is the thought pattern I see with a lot of teaching professionals is that "it's hard, therefor it can't be done, because it's hard".
Ah yes, what "you need to work on." Yes, let's expect the lone teacher to improve the lifelong issues his student is dealing with in a year. But not really a year, in nine months. But not really nine months, because assuming it's block scheduling, in four and a half months. And not really four and a half months, 90 minutes a day, five times a week.
And it's not one student, is it? It's as many as 100 (if he's lucky). But hey, I'm sure you've worked with 200 chemicals in a year [nine months] before, right? And, by gum, if some of those chemicals are mislabeled, you re-goddamn-label them, don't you? Because that's what you get paid to do! So if his students are as good as homeless, or don't get the meals they need to be healthy, or have to take care of siblings in place of their parents, or, so as not to be so dramatic, simply don't give a shit and never will, then he needs to goddamn fix it! Because that's what he gets paid to do!
Oh, wait. I was under the impression that he, as a [we'll just say chemistry teacher], his job is to teach chemistry. Not rescue abused or neglected children, or change the culture of a community to make it value learning chemistry above whatever it is they actually care about, but to teach chemistry. And if the students don't want to learn chemistry? What then? In your experience, when your chemicals were resistant to being experimented on, or weren't advanced enough by the time you got them to experiment upon, or ran all around the room, getting in fights with the other chemicals, throwing your equipment around the room, what did you do? Shine some light.
Oh, and many, many people expect it to get done overnight. Or at least before the next election year.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
FortyTwo, can you honestly say with a straight face that GEDs are the answer to a troubled school district's dropout problem? Seriously?
I didn't SAY it was the answer I said that my study included GED and other equivalencies and yours did not. Therefore the discrepancy.
I don't think those should count at all. A dude with a GED is still a dropout and is at a considerable disadvantage to a graduate. The solution to a dropout problem in a district involves keeping kids in school not giving them equivalency which is considered bullshit anyway by most colleges and universities.
DeadfallI don't think you realize just how rich he is.In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
I'm a teacher. In Colorado to be specific.
When I started, I was that self-entitled prick. I was ready to change the world. Then I actually started teaching, and realized that was just silly.
Then I got swept up in the politics, and the "game" that is played between staff and administration, and the parents, oh lord the parents. And the general apathy of the students.
I respect other teachers, I really do, but I'm looking to get out of the field. It's just not for me. Not my cup of tea.
When I started, I was that self-entitled prick. I was ready to change the world. Then I actually started teaching, and realized that was just silly.
Then I got swept up in the politics, and the "game" that is played between staff and administration, and the parents, oh lord the parents. And the general apathy of the students.
I respect other teachers, I really do, but I'm looking to get out of the field. It's just not for me. Not my cup of tea.
Amen, brother. Do you want a hug?
I'm really torn as to where I want to go from here but since I always am, I guess I should stick with it for as long as physically possible, but I'm definitely feeling a similar level of wariness and cynicism regarding the field as a whole
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
But it is the tone of their argument that is pissing people off. "We're Worth More." That's their new slogan.
It's not new. It's been their position for as long as I have been alive at least.
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!
I heard that at the last fundraiser bullshit I went to for my son's school and I wanted to vomit.
It's not just that. I can think of so many instances where teachers of mine have told me straight up that they are the most important profession in society and education is priceless and blah blah blah.
Yes education is important and a good teacher is a great thing but it's also a rare thing. There are tons of shitty, easily replaced educators and that's why so many of them get paid like shit.
Butters do you seriously think that it wouldn't be easier to get and hang on to good teachers if you paid them more? I'm as tired of the whiny attitude of entitlement that some teachers have as the next guy but I've also seen that the schools that have the most need are often the least able to pay good people what they deserve and I think that's a problem.
I've been advocating paying good teachers better the whole time. But you can't justify increasing their pay until you make it possible to get rid of the shitty teachers.
The only way to improve education is to change the culture of this country. And the only way you do something like that is by getting your ass kicked and suffering so badly that you have to.
But it is the tone of their argument that is pissing people off. "We're Worth More." That's their new slogan.
It's not new. It's been their position for as long as I have been alive at least.
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!
I heard that at the last fundraiser bullshit I went to for my son's school and I wanted to vomit.
It's not just that. I can think of so many instances where teachers of mine have told me straight up that they are the most important profession in society and education is priceless and blah blah blah.
Yes education is important and a good teacher is a great thing but it's also a rare thing. There are tons of shitty, easily replaced educators and that's why so many of them get paid like shit.
Butters do you seriously think that it wouldn't be easier to get and hang on to good teachers if you paid them more? I'm as tired of the whiny attitude of entitlement that some teachers have as the next guy but I've also seen that the schools that have the most need are often the least able to pay good people what they deserve and I think that's a problem.
I've been advocating paying good teachers better the whole time. But you can't justify increasing their pay until you make it possible to get rid of the shitty teachers.
Ohh, sorry. I misread that. I totally agree with you there, we have the same problem in my job. Between Civil Service rules and union stuff it's way harder than it should be to both get rid of bad people and hire good/new ones.
Forty, at the risk of sounding like an elitist bastard, stick with teaching long enough to get a good track record, then move the fuck out of Baltimore into an area with motivated families and an encouraging educational environment.
I would imagine both your pay, and the percentage of your kids who eat breakfast, would increase.
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DeadfallI don't think you realize just how rich he is.In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered Userregular
When I started, I was that self-entitled prick. I was ready to change the world. Then I actually started teaching, and realized that was just silly.
Then I got swept up in the politics, and the "game" that is played between staff and administration, and the parents, oh lord the parents. And the general apathy of the students.
I respect other teachers, I really do, but I'm looking to get out of the field. It's just not for me. Not my cup of tea.
Amen, brother. Do you want a hug?
I'm really torn as to where I want to go from here but since I always am, I guess I should stick with it for as long as physically possible, but I'm definitely feeling a similar level of wariness and cynicism regarding the field as a whole
Don't get me wrong, having weekends and holidays and eight weeks off at summer are awesome. But I figure if I'm doing something I really like doing, even if I'm working my ass off, I won't miss it.
For example: myself, I want to get into the brewery business. I'd be working 60-70 hours a week but I'd be brewing beer for a living.
1. Libertarian Cel (who, it must be acknowledged, is really not an expert in education) says that of course teacher pay is all messed up because unions are cartels. It shouldn't be surprising that it's really hard for young teachers, that the system rewards seniority and therefore administrators rather than teachers out on the "front lines," that we retain bad teachers and can't attract good teachers. Because unions make prices funny.
2. I actually went to a private school where the teachers were paid less than the public school teachers and they were better. Because there are other ways than money to attract good teachers. Promise them smart, nice, non-gang students and lots of classroom freedom, and they'll come. (The unfortunate thing is that this seems to only work for schools full of privileged kids. This may be why it's hard to attract good teachers to schools full of non-privileged kids, no matter how much you pay them.)
3. The weird thing about teacher pay is how it contrasts with tutor pay. In a place like Manhattan, tutor pay is through the roof. I once tutored a kid for $35 an hour, but that's a lower bound for what I've heard -- the highest I've heard is a PhD student who tutors for $500 an hour. There are no schoolteachers who earn that, as far as I know, anywhere.
If people are willing to pay that much for tutoring it strikes me that the public school system has depressed the price of school quite a bit below what some people would pay, even for private school. If we totally abolished public schooling, there would be millionaire teachers. Not all of them -- a few superstars.
I'm not advocating abolishing public school, of course, this is a thought experiment. But if there existed millionaire schoolteachers, then I think the flow of talent into the teaching business would increase quite a bit. Of course the talent would cluster around rich kids, but some teachers wouldn't get those coveted millionaire positions, and would have to teach not-so-rich kids. I'm not sure that the distribution of teacher quality would be worse than it is today.
Cel there was no public school system in the United States until the mid-19th century. I don't think you really need to conduct a thought experiment on the matter.
Cel there was no public school system in the United States until the mid-19th century. I don't think you really need to conduct a thought experiment on the matter.
Yeah you do, because everything else is different.
Again, to disclaim, abolishing public schools would cause a lot of really really bad things that I can't stomach.
When I started, I was that self-entitled prick. I was ready to change the world. Then I actually started teaching, and realized that was just silly.
Then I got swept up in the politics, and the "game" that is played between staff and administration, and the parents, oh lord the parents. And the general apathy of the students.
I respect other teachers, I really do, but I'm looking to get out of the field. It's just not for me. Not my cup of tea.
Oh lord, the parentssssss.
You know, I didn't actually realize there were so many other teachers on the boards.
I have lots and lots of opinions on this issue, but I have to leave shortly for school and then work, and by the time I get back I'm sure everyone will already have out-opinioned me. And I'm sure everyone has already touched on what I think - that while the U.S. is in dire need of reforms to the educational system, an overhaul where a major component is left undetailed and unplanned (or even simply undisclosed to pertinent parties) is no way to go about enacting change.
Especially because I have an issue with most of the teacher-appraisal metrics currently in use, because they are by and large based solely on student achievement on tests, combined with periodic evaluations often conducted by another person sitting in on their classes, neither of which necessarily provide a really clear outline of the teacher's net worth.
This was an interesting piece on the radio a few months ago:
MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
@ the OP:
I would vote against that contract
the really big problem with merit pay and everything is that it is virtually impossible to evaluate teacher efficacy from an objective standpoint school-wide, and actually impossible to evaluate teachers across districts, and I would never in a lifetime vote for a contract where the method of examination is unexplained.
besides, you can argue until you're blue in the face about merit pay and whether the union is good for the system but you still sound (to me) like you're screaming about tort reform; schools, especially in economically depressed districts, struggle to hold on to any teachers, let alone the good ones, and the structural reality of the public school model is that as long as property taxes take such a central role in funding, you'll never narrow the achievement gap. It's such a tiny step in the direction of reform that it just doesn't make sense to get worked up about.
3. The weird thing about teacher pay is how it contrasts with tutor pay. In a place like Manhattan, tutor pay is through the roof. I once tutored a kid for $35 an hour, but that's a lower bound for what I've heard -- the highest I've heard is a PhD student who tutors for $500 an hour. There are no schoolteachers who earn that, as far as I know, anywhere.
I promise you said tutor is not making anywhere fucking near $500 an hour 40 hours a week which equates to over a $1 million a year.
Yes tutors and substitutes can make good money when there's a high demand for them like any contractor because they're pretty much paid in straight cash. But also like any contractor you forgo the benefits and job security other jobs can provide and when demand is low you don't get to make your own hours.
That's why you are payed to do it. Nobody would put up with the bullshit for free. Setting up an ISO 17205 laboratory is hard. It took about a decade. Now that it's all here and all the documentation is completed, all procedures in place, and systems to guide new work and new employees it's not bad.
No one thinks it will happen over night. Well, some people do and they're stupid. My point is the thought pattern I see with a lot of teaching professionals is that "it's hard, therefor it can't be done, because it's hard".
Ah yes, what "you need to work on." Yes, let's expect the lone teacher to improve the lifelong issues his student is dealing with in a year. But not really a year, in nine months. But not really nine months, because assuming it's block scheduling, in four and a half months. And not really four and a half months, 90 minutes a day, five times a week.
And it's not one student, is it? It's as many as 100 (if he's lucky). But hey, I'm sure you've worked with 200 chemicals in a year [nine months] before, right? And, by gum, if some of those chemicals are mislabeled, you re-goddamn-label them, don't you? Because that's what you get paid to do! So if his students are as good as homeless, or don't get the meals they need to be healthy, or have to take care of siblings in place of their parents, or, so as not to be so dramatic, simply don't give a shit and never will, then he needs to goddamn fix it! Because that's what he gets paid to do!
Oh, wait. I was under the impression that he, as a [we'll just say chemistry teacher], his job is to teach chemistry. Not rescue abused or neglected children, or change the culture of a community to make it value learning chemistry above whatever it is they actually care about, but to teach chemistry. And if the students don't want to learn chemistry? What then? In your experience, when your chemicals were resistant to being experimented on, or weren't advanced enough by the time you got them to experiment upon, or ran all around the room, getting in fights with the other chemicals, throwing your equipment around the room, what did you do? Shine some light.
Oh, and many, many people expect it to get done overnight. Or at least before the next election year.
Don't fall off that pedestal, or nobody will ever learn again because teachers are that important. Because they're all teacher of the year and put in 60 hours a week or more.
Also, don't open your mouth anymore or all your self serving bullshit may fall out.
Way to duck the question! Add a nice jab and you could leave the lab for the ring.
Most every teacher does put in 60+ a week, but you've failed to A) identify how students and chemicals are similar, which is the basis of your argument, and explain your expectation that an individual is supposed to sway 100+ individuals that their subject is more important than whatever else the person values.
But hey, that's apparently too much to bother you with. Chemicals are tough, Chinese are incompetent right? With all your whatever the fuck it is you're doing, I have to ask: What do you know about education?
If you're actually up to answering that one, how about covering the rest of it instead of ducking the question?
EDIT: And just for fun, you can dump out the homeless/starving/drugged out business, as that's only some of the problem kids. Just go ahead and focus on the one's that don't give a shit and who's parents don't give a shit. You can yell and threaten and give Fs but they still don't care. That should get away from the "liberal shit" and get down to the objective details. Because that's what I want, a scientific viewpoint [read: an actual answer].
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HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
You're putting teaching on a pedestal above all other professions because you say so.
I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.
Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.
I am down with an evaluation system for teachers to give incentive for teachers to actually, you know, teach. But I can't think of any proper way to do it that wouldn't either be exploited into oblivion or be a broken mess all together.
Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.
Exactly. A merit based system.
Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.
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Exactly.
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It's not new. It's been their position for as long as I have been alive at least.
If you want to read through it all to get the numbers from 08-09/09-10 years by all means. But I proved my point.
Your study doesn't take into account student who dropout and get a GED or some sort of equivalency degree. And bases there numbers off of 2007's rates
So yeah, there ya go sweetheart.
You realize that not everyone who drops out does it out of choice?
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
But the money eventually RUNS OUT. No one wants to pay higher taxes to fund schools this is what you are forgetting. I get paid fairly well in the City, but in one of the counties, where I grew up, a first year teacher makes 10K less than an average salary in the US. Moreover, I am forced to get a masters degree to keep my certification. Average salary for someone with a masters degree 60K +, in the county I grew up in you have to teach for more than 15 years, before you even start to sniff that money.
Harford County actually had to cut teacher's salaries two percent last year.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!
I heard that at the last fundraiser bullshit I went to for my son's school and I wanted to vomit.
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It's not just that. I can think of so many instances where teachers of mine have told me straight up that they are the most important profession in society and education is priceless and blah blah blah.
Yes education is important and a good teacher is a great thing but it's also a rare thing. There are tons of shitty, easily replaced educators and that's why so many of them get paid like shit.
A little bit!
I've been in sales, admin, retail, and education
That is why I am a misanthropic bastard with a penchant for needless violence
Yes see I can understand this angle
It's like soldiers and cops, I respect the military and the law enforcement services a great deal but being a soldier is not a free pass- there are good soldiers and there a bad soldiers and that's why we have courts-martial and investigations and what not in the first place
Also my sister is in HR at a hospital and from what I hear doctors are frequently self-entitled pricks: so I guess what I'm saying is that self-entitled pricks are self-entitled pricks even if they're saving lies. Not that I'd dream of suggesting that the screening/review process for medical practioners is less vigorous than that which teachers undergo
...there was a point to all this but I forget it.
Butters do you seriously think that it wouldn't be easier to get and hang on to good teachers if you paid them more? I'm as tired of the whiny attitude of entitlement that some teachers have as the next guy but I've also seen that the schools that have the most need are often the least able to pay good people what they deserve and I think that's a problem.
Yes they do. There might be extenuating circumstances, but it is always a choice.
I didn't SAY it was the answer I said that my study included GED and other equivalencies and yours did not. Therefore the discrepancy.
Also, your numbers are projections based on 2007 graduation numbers.
My study looked at how many people dropped out and failed to obtain anything, yours just looked at who failed to graduate and stops there. It also makes the assumption that since it goes off of 2007 numbers the "recession isn't a factor" sure, its not like the recession's effects weren't being felt in 2007 or anything. Whatever to that.
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
Fair enough, rephrase that to say - people drop out only because of laziness and failure?
Fortytwo's blog about fatherhood, life, and everything.
Ah yes, what "you need to work on." Yes, let's expect the lone teacher to improve the lifelong issues his student is dealing with in a year. But not really a year, in nine months. But not really nine months, because assuming it's block scheduling, in four and a half months. And not really four and a half months, 90 minutes a day, five times a week.
And it's not one student, is it? It's as many as 100 (if he's lucky). But hey, I'm sure you've worked with 200 chemicals in a year [nine months] before, right? And, by gum, if some of those chemicals are mislabeled, you re-goddamn-label them, don't you? Because that's what you get paid to do! So if his students are as good as homeless, or don't get the meals they need to be healthy, or have to take care of siblings in place of their parents, or, so as not to be so dramatic, simply don't give a shit and never will, then he needs to goddamn fix it! Because that's what he gets paid to do!
Oh, wait. I was under the impression that he, as a [we'll just say chemistry teacher], his job is to teach chemistry. Not rescue abused or neglected children, or change the culture of a community to make it value learning chemistry above whatever it is they actually care about, but to teach chemistry. And if the students don't want to learn chemistry? What then? In your experience, when your chemicals were resistant to being experimented on, or weren't advanced enough by the time you got them to experiment upon, or ran all around the room, getting in fights with the other chemicals, throwing your equipment around the room, what did you do? Shine some light.
Oh, and many, many people expect it to get done overnight. Or at least before the next election year.
I don't think those should count at all. A dude with a GED is still a dropout and is at a considerable disadvantage to a graduate. The solution to a dropout problem in a district involves keeping kids in school not giving them equivalency which is considered bullshit anyway by most colleges and universities.
Yes but they meant to predict and represent recent graduation numbers but don't bitch at me. Statistics is gay like that. I didn't invent it.
When I started, I was that self-entitled prick. I was ready to change the world. Then I actually started teaching, and realized that was just silly.
Then I got swept up in the politics, and the "game" that is played between staff and administration, and the parents, oh lord the parents. And the general apathy of the students.
I respect other teachers, I really do, but I'm looking to get out of the field. It's just not for me. Not my cup of tea.
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Amen, brother. Do you want a hug?
I'm really torn as to where I want to go from here but since I always am, I guess I should stick with it for as long as physically possible, but I'm definitely feeling a similar level of wariness and cynicism regarding the field as a whole
I've been advocating paying good teachers better the whole time. But you can't justify increasing their pay until you make it possible to get rid of the shitty teachers.
Ohh, sorry. I misread that. I totally agree with you there, we have the same problem in my job. Between Civil Service rules and union stuff it's way harder than it should be to both get rid of bad people and hire good/new ones.
I would imagine both your pay, and the percentage of your kids who eat breakfast, would increase.
Don't get me wrong, having weekends and holidays and eight weeks off at summer are awesome. But I figure if I'm doing something I really like doing, even if I'm working my ass off, I won't miss it.
For example: myself, I want to get into the brewery business. I'd be working 60-70 hours a week but I'd be brewing beer for a living.
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1. Libertarian Cel (who, it must be acknowledged, is really not an expert in education) says that of course teacher pay is all messed up because unions are cartels. It shouldn't be surprising that it's really hard for young teachers, that the system rewards seniority and therefore administrators rather than teachers out on the "front lines," that we retain bad teachers and can't attract good teachers. Because unions make prices funny.
2. I actually went to a private school where the teachers were paid less than the public school teachers and they were better. Because there are other ways than money to attract good teachers. Promise them smart, nice, non-gang students and lots of classroom freedom, and they'll come. (The unfortunate thing is that this seems to only work for schools full of privileged kids. This may be why it's hard to attract good teachers to schools full of non-privileged kids, no matter how much you pay them.)
3. The weird thing about teacher pay is how it contrasts with tutor pay. In a place like Manhattan, tutor pay is through the roof. I once tutored a kid for $35 an hour, but that's a lower bound for what I've heard -- the highest I've heard is a PhD student who tutors for $500 an hour. There are no schoolteachers who earn that, as far as I know, anywhere.
If people are willing to pay that much for tutoring it strikes me that the public school system has depressed the price of school quite a bit below what some people would pay, even for private school. If we totally abolished public schooling, there would be millionaire teachers. Not all of them -- a few superstars.
I'm not advocating abolishing public school, of course, this is a thought experiment. But if there existed millionaire schoolteachers, then I think the flow of talent into the teaching business would increase quite a bit. Of course the talent would cluster around rich kids, but some teachers wouldn't get those coveted millionaire positions, and would have to teach not-so-rich kids. I'm not sure that the distribution of teacher quality would be worse than it is today.
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Yeah you do, because everything else is different.
Again, to disclaim, abolishing public schools would cause a lot of really really bad things that I can't stomach.
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Oh lord, the parentssssss.
You know, I didn't actually realize there were so many other teachers on the boards.
I have lots and lots of opinions on this issue, but I have to leave shortly for school and then work, and by the time I get back I'm sure everyone will already have out-opinioned me. And I'm sure everyone has already touched on what I think - that while the U.S. is in dire need of reforms to the educational system, an overhaul where a major component is left undetailed and unplanned (or even simply undisclosed to pertinent parties) is no way to go about enacting change.
Especially because I have an issue with most of the teacher-appraisal metrics currently in use, because they are by and large based solely on student achievement on tests, combined with periodic evaluations often conducted by another person sitting in on their classes, neither of which necessarily provide a really clear outline of the teacher's net worth.
This was an interesting piece on the radio a few months ago:
Teacher Performance Data Stirs Evaluation Debate
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
Also, make every test have a question about The Last Unicorn.
I would vote against that contract
the really big problem with merit pay and everything is that it is virtually impossible to evaluate teacher efficacy from an objective standpoint school-wide, and actually impossible to evaluate teachers across districts, and I would never in a lifetime vote for a contract where the method of examination is unexplained.
besides, you can argue until you're blue in the face about merit pay and whether the union is good for the system but you still sound (to me) like you're screaming about tort reform; schools, especially in economically depressed districts, struggle to hold on to any teachers, let alone the good ones, and the structural reality of the public school model is that as long as property taxes take such a central role in funding, you'll never narrow the achievement gap. It's such a tiny step in the direction of reform that it just doesn't make sense to get worked up about.
I promise you said tutor is not making anywhere fucking near $500 an hour 40 hours a week which equates to over a $1 million a year.
Yes tutors and substitutes can make good money when there's a high demand for them like any contractor because they're pretty much paid in straight cash. But also like any contractor you forgo the benefits and job security other jobs can provide and when demand is low you don't get to make your own hours.
Don't fall off that pedestal, or nobody will ever learn again because teachers are that important. Because they're all teacher of the year and put in 60 hours a week or more.
Also, don't open your mouth anymore or all your self serving bullshit may fall out.
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Most every teacher does put in 60+ a week, but you've failed to A) identify how students and chemicals are similar, which is the basis of your argument, and
But hey, that's apparently too much to bother you with. Chemicals are tough, Chinese are incompetent right? With all your whatever the fuck it is you're doing, I have to ask: What do you know about education?
If you're actually up to answering that one, how about covering the rest of it instead of ducking the question?
EDIT: And just for fun, you can dump out the homeless/starving/drugged out business, as that's only some of the problem kids. Just go ahead and focus on the one's that don't give a shit and who's parents don't give a shit. You can yell and threaten and give Fs but they still don't care. That should get away from the "liberal shit" and get down to the objective details. Because that's what I want, a scientific viewpoint [read: an actual answer].
You are full of shit.
Try again.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
Teachers who go that extra mile should be rewarded.
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He honestly believes his own hype. God bless him.
Teachers are hard working and it's a hard job, just like many other equally hard professional jobs.
Also chemicals or something. China. Teachers are philosopher-kings.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
Exactly. A merit based system.
Setting it up is hard, which apparently means impossible and we should just do nothing because kids don't eat breakfast and 60 hours a week or something.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist