Since GW2 nolonger has a Sub Class.
I wonder how are they going to balance it in PvP.
In PvP, A pure Warrior pretty much loses to a pure Ranger all the time.
Assuming it's just those 2 and not those 2 plus other classes making up for their disparities, which is the more likely scenario we'll encounter in game.
I'm sure there will be ways to fix things. Perhaps Warriors can charge at Rangers and other ranged targets or temporarily become more capable of taking arrows to the face?
Corehealer on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
It is irrelevant. You guys are talking about GW1. This thread is not about GW1. With the massive changes to combat mechanics, why would one assume that any old balance issues will remain? It is going to be totally different.
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Oh, I see. I thought he was referring to some general idea of "ranger always wins over warrior", not to a game that is almost nothing like the game discussed in this thread.
reVerse on
0
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
Warriors pretty much lose to everything in a 1v1 match unless the other player was dumb.
There's a reason rangers, elementalists and assassins were used as flag runners in GvG. They frequently get into 1v1 fights, either with guild NPCs or with the other teams runner that's decided to kill off some of their guild NPCs or try to delay the flag. Those classes excel at 1v1 combat - they have snares aplenty (a warrior without mending touch against a ranger with apply poison and crippling shot isn't going anywhere, and will eventually die due to never getting a healing signet off. Even with mending touch, a half decent ranger won't let that go off either.) and good self heals. Being able to snare at range is far more important in a 1v1 fight than raw damage.
I love the idea for the new healing signet. Health regen unless it's recharging.
That's pretty awesome. I can only imagine between skills like that and the banners they can throw down for support what kind of goodies the other Soldier class will end up getting.
Seidkona on
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Argh! I want too see the Sylvari redesign! My one complaint is this otherwise unique looking MMO has ELVES! Well ok... not Elves exactly... but a race that looks exactly like an elf from a cliche' fantasy setting.
Which is a shame because they have such a cool fiction and it IS possible to make them look very plantlike and alien, but you know most people are gonna be making legolas wannabe's.
I hope the redesign cuts out the ability to make this...
and forces you to make something a bit more unique and befitting of the lore like this...
Wishpig on
WARNING: Picture below may cause spontaneous growth of facial hair and/or body hair.
Sylvari are plant creatures, shaped by human spirit.
Considering that elves are just idealized humans who are in touch with nature.. it's not hard to see how there would be some overlap, green skin and leaf-hair notwithstanding.
Other than the fact that they have pointy ears, they are nothing like elves from, say, LotR. They are a (temporarily) naive child-race who are curious and daring. They also have a hive-mind. And, as previously mentioned, green skin and leaf-hair.
Sylvari are plant creatures, shaped by human spirit.
Considering that elves are just idealized humans who are in touch with nature.. it's not hard to see how there would be some overlap, green skin and leaf-hair notwithstanding.
Other than the fact that they have pointy ears, they are nothing like elves from, say, LotR. They are a (temporarily) naive child-race who are curious and daring. They also have a hive-mind. And, as previously mentioned, green skin and leaf-hair.
Overlap more then fine. But the fact they CAN look JUST like regular standard fantasy elves, and the fact their "face" (the white haired Sylvari in all the promotions) looks like she walked out of Warcraft, or lord of the rings, or Everquest, ect, doesn't make me a happy camper.
But they are not like elves anymore then Norn are like Dwarfs. They are not idealized humans in touch with nature. They are actually biologically like plants. There is no reason they should like like "idealized humans" they should LOOK plant like. They come from a tree planted by a human and a
Making them look like standard fantasy elves is just wrong, and the devs realize this, hence the redesign.
Yes the picture of two very plant like Sylvari I posted is on the extreme side, and I think they're should be the ability to make their plant like features subtle. But at the same time they NEED to look like the plants they are, not like the flesh and blood Legolas.
Of course just my opinion. I hate elves so I'm very very very bias.
Wishpig on
WARNING: Picture below may cause spontaneous growth of facial hair and/or body hair.
I think I can agree that the Sylvari look far less like their artwork than the other races, and that is something that I would like to see changed. Because the artwork for this game fuckin' owns.
I hate the over-the-top stuck-on look to the leaves in most of the Sylvari pictures. I also don't like Caithe (white-haired first picture) looking almost indistinguishable from an idealized human.
I'd love to see something more subtly planty like the Lady of the Forest from Dragon Age or more waxy looking textures/colors. Just not the "I pinned a wig of leaves on my head" stuff.
I don't like the blue spots... it's just flat blue specular light, which feels plastic-y to me. The flat speculars on all the characters (humans included) is one of my only major issues with the graphics I've seen so far for this game. Hopefully they're still tweaking that. (and if its a matter of the light being way too blue rather than a tinted spec map... well, that's even easier to fix later on)
Yeah, its a thin line between waxy and plasticy, and they're coming down on the wrong side of it for me right now. One would be cool, the other isn't. And if it was just the Sylvari, I could live with it, but the fleshies are doing it too.
That's pretty nit-picky though, and I'm willing to concede that I'm probably the only one really bothered by it.
I'd love to see something more subtly planty like the Lady of the Forest from Dragon Age or more waxy looking textures/colors. Just not the "I pinned a wig of leaves on my head" stuff.
Agreed, while I like the exotic very planty look... I do think less radical options should be available... just not to the point where you can make them look like humans with pointy ears. They are plants and should be forced to look inhuman to a degree.
Lady of the forest is a perfect PERFECT example, and one that's very frequently used over in the biggest GW2 forum community.
Wishpig on
WARNING: Picture below may cause spontaneous growth of facial hair and/or body hair.
Image by Sharpwriter on deviantart.com
0
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Yeah, its a thin line between waxy and plasticy, and they're coming down on the wrong side of it for me right now. One would be cool, the other isn't. And if it was just the Sylvari, I could live with it, but the fleshies are doing it too.
That's pretty nit-picky though, and I'm willing to concede that I'm probably the only one really bothered by it.
Thankfully there's less of it in Charr because of the fur, at least to my eyes. Still, they might polish it a bit prior to release but I'm guessing it's low on their priority list.
Corehealer on
0
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
Every time I see a Sylvari screenshot it reinforces my need to have a Sylvari ranger.
In PvP, A pure Warrior pretty much loses to a pure Ranger all the time.
Provide some form of logical reasoning for this.
I am refering to 1v1.
Don't believe it try making a Pure Warrior Class that can beat a Pure Ranger Class.
So, your reasoning is "because".
Hold on, I am remembering when I switched my ranger to a R/W and spammed axe moves to master kill shiro in hard mode.
Re: Sylvarii, wow, I wonder what direction they are going to go with for their armor. Aaaaaand, I just pictured a sylvarii going apeshit with a plant based super move. Must...forget...about...guild wars 2....fighting....game....
The lady of the Forest is is just a naked woman with some roots around her legs. I much prefer the plantdesign they currently have in GW2 as it sets them apart from humans much more than the lady of the forest did
I agree that I don't want the human aspects of the Lady of the Forest, Zzulu. But her planty bits were better incorporated into her, especially her hands and arms. With the Sylvari they're not blended in so much as tagged on, and that's my particular beef with it. I'd love to see more plant elements added, but I want them woven together and working as a single unit, rather than feeling like they were humans that decided to wear clothes and wigs of leaves.
Bit of an info slowdown on this lately. Guess they're in crunch after the Gamescom/PAX showings. Still doesn't stop me wanting more though .
As for the Sylvari design, Caithe especially is a very early model; the thing with the Sylvari is that I'll expect their models to change a fair bit before launch. Remember that every other playable race has already been conceptualised and modeled, in GW1. The Sylvari are the only race that aren't in the first game, so Anet don't really have anything in terms of existing models and lore to build on. Think of them as a work in progress.
I'm interested to see what they do with mesmers in GW2; a lot of what defined mesmers in GW1 in terms of mechanics (interrupts, shutdowns, energy denial), don't exist in GW2. If they rework the class to keep it's core flavour of harlequin-y caster people, but perhaps in more of a crowd control role, like they mention warriors being, then I may just play one of those first.
Speaking of control. ANet refers to tanks as a form of the "control" archetype (the others being "support" and "damage", for those who don't remember). I wonder if this means that if we have a person in the party who is heavily focused on CC we won't need a tank? That would be awesome if true.
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Well, we won't need a tank, they've been pretty forthcoming about that. Not that there are any traditional tanks to begin with, just some characters who are beefier than others, like warriors and necromancers.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
I'm curious how aggro will work in GW2. In GW1 you saw less options for aggro control than in other similar games at the time, and thus less use for a "tank." There were still tricks out there to be used, however, and tanks could be helpful at times. Poor AI pathing would let you trap them on corners, and enough separation between front line and back line would let you trick the AI into fighting your preferred target. If these sorts of things carry over to GW2, then whether they intend for there to be tanks or not, there will be.
There may not be a tank profession, but in GW1 you could find non-warriors tanking just as well as warriors depending on the circumstance (I had to tank as a ranger in DoA once, which was quite interesting). Whether or not people set up their characters to be damage sponges will depend entirely on their ability to control the enemy's target. If you can force the enemy to only hit the target you want them to, rather than the target they'd like to, then a tank will always be a tactic that's present.
And that, I think, is the crux of why ANet refers to tanking as control. If you can't control the enemy's target then a character with infinite health and armor but nothing else is utterly useless.
Controlling an enemy's target, whether through skills that redirect their damage to a different target or through manipulation of poor AI, is only one type of control however. A far more interesting type is to change the conditions of the battlefield so as to control your enemy's motivations and make them behave differently. This can be done as simply as laying down an AOE DOT skill, which encourages your enemies to not stand in that area. It could be making foes take damage for attacking (ala Empathy or Backfire), which makes them less aggressive by making them consider whether they can afford their full assault.
There are so many options, both direct and indirect, when you start talking about control. Pretty much every class in GW1 already had control going on -its one of the reasons the games can be beaten in hard mode without thought of a tank- but the mesmer is really the embodiment of control.
And that makes me really curious about what form mesmers will take.
I bet they'll keep their fondness of signets, since signets have gotten cooler from GW1 to GW2. If its possible to load up your utility slots with signets, that could be a lot of passive bonuses stacking.
While hexes aren't coming back, ground targeted effects similar to GW1 hexes are a definite possibility, since necros already have "marks" doing just that.
Both signets and marks are utility skills though, so that leaves the burning question of what sort of weapon skills would the mesmer have? Clearly they can be spells, as they are for necro and ele, but what sort of spells? Also, what is their profession mechanic? Both marks and signets are had by other classes, and the unique profession mechanics seems to go beyond just skills.
Warrior's adrenaline passively increases their attack damage. Ranger's pet gives them passive background skill usage (and that's all I see the pet as) that they can customize to be offensive or defensive. Ele's attunements allow them to switch on the fly between radiating AOE healing effects or damage (the often overlooked side of attunements).
So far the necro's the odd one out in that their profession mechanic itself isn't some sort of passive bonus going off all the time. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me to see passive effects on the other classes as well, and there are quite a few awesome possibilities when you start considering passive effects radiating off a character. Granted, this is all purely speculation at this point, but passive debuffs just for venturing near a mesmer could be a possibility, as could my personal favorite thought at the moment: when a mesmer uses a skill all nearby foes are interrupted. :twisted:
I'm really looking forward to more class reveals, but am pretty resigned to not seeing them until sometime in the new year. We're just too close to many various holidays now.
It would be fun if enemy AI had different levels of "aggression" that interacted with spells like area-denial or debuffs such as Empathy. That might be a bit fancy though.
Edit: I guess NSFW-ish if you work with people who don't understand what artistic nudes are. It's an artist's page, and a couple of the examples seem to be figure studies which are not related to GW2.
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Oh look, a penis.
reVerse on
0
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
The thing with tanking in GW is while it was better done by a high armour character, like a warrior, you still needed a monk to heal him. You aren't very tough in Guild Wars, even a warrior.
Logan: XMAS IS SRS BSNS.
Rytlock: Bah humbug!
Zojja: (trollface)
Eir: you guys, where is my mouth
Caithe: This smile is the last thing you'll see before you DIE!
My wife actually got one in the mail yesterday. Nice job by Arenanet, signed and everything. Pretty impressive, and a really nice gesture. She of course squealed like a 4 year old and literally jumped up and down, so cute.
Posts
Assuming it's just those 2 and not those 2 plus other classes making up for their disparities, which is the more likely scenario we'll encounter in game.
I'm sure there will be ways to fix things. Perhaps Warriors can charge at Rangers and other ranged targets or temporarily become more capable of taking arrows to the face?
Provide some form of logical reasoning for this.
I am refering to 1v1.
Don't believe it try making a Pure Warrior Class that can beat a Pure Ranger Class.
So, your reasoning is "because".
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
There's a reason rangers, elementalists and assassins were used as flag runners in GvG. They frequently get into 1v1 fights, either with guild NPCs or with the other teams runner that's decided to kill off some of their guild NPCs or try to delay the flag. Those classes excel at 1v1 combat - they have snares aplenty (a warrior without mending touch against a ranger with apply poison and crippling shot isn't going anywhere, and will eventually die due to never getting a healing signet off. Even with mending touch, a half decent ranger won't let that go off either.) and good self heals. Being able to snare at range is far more important in a 1v1 fight than raw damage.
That's pretty awesome. I can only imagine between skills like that and the banners they can throw down for support what kind of goodies the other Soldier class will end up getting.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Which is a shame because they have such a cool fiction and it IS possible to make them look very plantlike and alien, but you know most people are gonna be making legolas wannabe's.
I hope the redesign cuts out the ability to make this...
and forces you to make something a bit more unique and befitting of the lore like this...
Image by Sharpwriter on deviantart.com
Considering that elves are just idealized humans who are in touch with nature.. it's not hard to see how there would be some overlap, green skin and leaf-hair notwithstanding.
Other than the fact that they have pointy ears, they are nothing like elves from, say, LotR. They are a (temporarily) naive child-race who are curious and daring. They also have a hive-mind. And, as previously mentioned, green skin and leaf-hair.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Overlap more then fine. But the fact they CAN look JUST like regular standard fantasy elves, and the fact their "face" (the white haired Sylvari in all the promotions) looks like she walked out of Warcraft, or lord of the rings, or Everquest, ect, doesn't make me a happy camper.
But they are not like elves anymore then Norn are like Dwarfs. They are not idealized humans in touch with nature. They are actually biologically like plants. There is no reason they should like like "idealized humans" they should LOOK plant like. They come from a tree planted by a human and a
Making them look like standard fantasy elves is just wrong, and the devs realize this, hence the redesign.
Yes the picture of two very plant like Sylvari I posted is on the extreme side, and I think they're should be the ability to make their plant like features subtle. But at the same time they NEED to look like the plants they are, not like the flesh and blood Legolas.
Of course just my opinion. I hate elves so I'm very very very bias.
Image by Sharpwriter on deviantart.com
I'd love to see something more subtly planty like the Lady of the Forest from Dragon Age or more waxy looking textures/colors. Just not the "I pinned a wig of leaves on my head" stuff.
I love them.
I hate elves, but I really like these guys.
(I'm sorry, I really do like those designs, but I get a SERIOUS Chiquita Banana vibe from the chick.)
Glowing banana-hair is definitely cooler than banana-hair.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
That's pretty nit-picky though, and I'm willing to concede that I'm probably the only one really bothered by it.
Agreed, while I like the exotic very planty look... I do think less radical options should be available... just not to the point where you can make them look like humans with pointy ears. They are plants and should be forced to look inhuman to a degree.
Lady of the forest is a perfect PERFECT example, and one that's very frequently used over in the biggest GW2 forum community.
Image by Sharpwriter on deviantart.com
Thankfully there's less of it in Charr because of the fur, at least to my eyes. Still, they might polish it a bit prior to release but I'm guessing it's low on their priority list.
Hold on, I am remembering when I switched my ranger to a R/W and spammed axe moves to master kill shiro in hard mode.
Re: Sylvarii, wow, I wonder what direction they are going to go with for their armor. Aaaaaand, I just pictured a sylvarii going apeshit with a plant based super move. Must...forget...about...guild wars 2....fighting....game....
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
As for the Sylvari design, Caithe especially is a very early model; the thing with the Sylvari is that I'll expect their models to change a fair bit before launch. Remember that every other playable race has already been conceptualised and modeled, in GW1. The Sylvari are the only race that aren't in the first game, so Anet don't really have anything in terms of existing models and lore to build on. Think of them as a work in progress.
I'm interested to see what they do with mesmers in GW2; a lot of what defined mesmers in GW1 in terms of mechanics (interrupts, shutdowns, energy denial), don't exist in GW2. If they rework the class to keep it's core flavour of harlequin-y caster people, but perhaps in more of a crowd control role, like they mention warriors being, then I may just play one of those first.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
There may not be a tank profession, but in GW1 you could find non-warriors tanking just as well as warriors depending on the circumstance (I had to tank as a ranger in DoA once, which was quite interesting). Whether or not people set up their characters to be damage sponges will depend entirely on their ability to control the enemy's target. If you can force the enemy to only hit the target you want them to, rather than the target they'd like to, then a tank will always be a tactic that's present.
And that, I think, is the crux of why ANet refers to tanking as control. If you can't control the enemy's target then a character with infinite health and armor but nothing else is utterly useless.
Controlling an enemy's target, whether through skills that redirect their damage to a different target or through manipulation of poor AI, is only one type of control however. A far more interesting type is to change the conditions of the battlefield so as to control your enemy's motivations and make them behave differently. This can be done as simply as laying down an AOE DOT skill, which encourages your enemies to not stand in that area. It could be making foes take damage for attacking (ala Empathy or Backfire), which makes them less aggressive by making them consider whether they can afford their full assault.
There are so many options, both direct and indirect, when you start talking about control. Pretty much every class in GW1 already had control going on -its one of the reasons the games can be beaten in hard mode without thought of a tank- but the mesmer is really the embodiment of control.
And that makes me really curious about what form mesmers will take.
I bet they'll keep their fondness of signets, since signets have gotten cooler from GW1 to GW2. If its possible to load up your utility slots with signets, that could be a lot of passive bonuses stacking.
While hexes aren't coming back, ground targeted effects similar to GW1 hexes are a definite possibility, since necros already have "marks" doing just that.
Both signets and marks are utility skills though, so that leaves the burning question of what sort of weapon skills would the mesmer have? Clearly they can be spells, as they are for necro and ele, but what sort of spells? Also, what is their profession mechanic? Both marks and signets are had by other classes, and the unique profession mechanics seems to go beyond just skills.
Warrior's adrenaline passively increases their attack damage. Ranger's pet gives them passive background skill usage (and that's all I see the pet as) that they can customize to be offensive or defensive. Ele's attunements allow them to switch on the fly between radiating AOE healing effects or damage (the often overlooked side of attunements).
So far the necro's the odd one out in that their profession mechanic itself isn't some sort of passive bonus going off all the time. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me to see passive effects on the other classes as well, and there are quite a few awesome possibilities when you start considering passive effects radiating off a character. Granted, this is all purely speculation at this point, but passive debuffs just for venturing near a mesmer could be a possibility, as could my personal favorite thought at the moment: when a mesmer uses a skill all nearby foes are interrupted. :twisted:
I'm really looking forward to more class reveals, but am pretty resigned to not seeing them until sometime in the new year. We're just too close to many various holidays now.
In other news, some new 3D models, found via GW2Guru, http://www.jasonjuan.com/2010/3D/index.html
Edit: I guess NSFW-ish if you work with people who don't understand what artistic nudes are. It's an artist's page, and a couple of the examples seem to be figure studies which are not related to GW2.
e.g.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Fact: Charr like getting coal in their stockings.
http://www.arena.net/blog/making-the-arenanet-holiday-card-with-jamie-jang
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Rytlock: Bah humbug!
Zojja: (trollface)
Eir: you guys, where is my mouth
Caithe: This smile is the last thing you'll see before you DIE!
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=481154&postcount=1 8-)
Also some neat things via GW2Guru:
"GW2 character creator" lets you play around with character builds using the currently known skills
http://www.gw2tools.12hp.de/test.php
GW2 compiled maps, including google maps interactive ones
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/maps-tyria-interactive-image-heavy-t11575.html
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)