GUYS. Am I just late to the party or something? This starts pretty soon and no one has spoken about it... GOMtv has this Gisado Challenge My All Starz thingy. Basically King of the Hill with 5 players from each GSL competing. Season winner picks their team.
- Season 1 team : TSL_FruitDealer, PipiJung, IMLosirA, TSL_Pooh, TSL_Pretty
- Season 2 team : IMNestea, MakaPrime.WE, MarineKingPrime.WE, HongUnPrime.WE, IMMvp
- Season 3 team : oGsMC, Liquid_Jinro, oGsInca, oGsTop, LeenockfOu
Season 2 vs Season 3 is in 2 hours I think. Not interested?
GUYS. Am I just late to the party or something? This starts pretty soon and no one has spoken about it... GOMtv has this Gisado Challenge My All Starz thingy. Basically King of the Hill with 5 players from each GSL competing. Season winner picks their team.
- Season 1 team : TSL_FruitDealer, PipiJung, IMLosirA, TSL_Pooh, TSL_Pretty
- Season 2 team : IMNestea, MakaPrime.WE, MarineKingPrime.WE, HongUnPrime.WE, IMMvp
- Season 3 team : oGsMC, Liquid_Jinro, oGsInca, oGsTop, LeenockfOu
Season 2 vs Season 3 is in 2 hours I think. Not interested?
Gisado challenge has been going on for a few nights I think, last night saw some bitchin' Maka games. The mass raven & mule one was particularly fun. Maka knows how to diss on a fool.
Early ghosts are great. The sheer mind-fuckery of nukes is awesome... they don't really do all that much by way of damage but holy god do people ever start panicking and dropping detectors like they're going out of style
Robman on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
nukes are area denial weapons which means they are fantastic in siege tank standoffs if you use them properly but not that great against the other races or non-siege tank Terran armies because of their mobility
Dhalphir on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Early ghosts are great. The sheer mind-fuckery of nukes is awesome... they don't really do all that much by way of damage but holy god do people ever start panicking and dropping detectors like they're going out of style
the biggest reason I like early ghosts is I get to pretend the toss won't get hts once they know I have plenty of emp on the field
Seguerof the VoidSydney, AustraliaRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
You and your damn ghosts means I don't even make it to HT stage!
Ugh.
Seguer on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
the problems I have with ghosts is that the only way I have to defeat heavy marauder compositions, even when I have colossi on the field, is with a lot of zealots and forcefield. Ghosts completely nullify the forcefield. Given warning, you can spread your sentries out so that you'll still have a couple with full energy for 4-5 forcefields, but thats it, and you'd better kill most of their forces there or you'll be in trouble.
I wonder if maybe the only change a marauder needs is a slight build time increase. For such powerful units, a 2 base terran can rebuild them incredibly fast and of the t1 units they are definitely the most powerful, you cannot deny that.
Dhalphir on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
as much as I argue in here I could live with a change to marauders. nothing ridiculous... they need to do some of the things they do imo, but something like a little less health or a little longer build I could accept.
I am not cool with the removing stim or removing concussive ideas passed around from time to time, though
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
What is marauder health? 120?
edit: 125.
And they take 30 seconds to build.
Say either increase the build time from 30 to 33 seconds, or drop the health from 125 to 115.
Either of those I think would be a brilliant change.
OR reduce the rate that medivacs heal at, but give them better healing efficiency. I think thats a big part of what makes marauders so great.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
You do have to be careful with marauder nerfs, though. Zerg already has a much easier time dealing with them than Protoss, nerf them too much and roaches will become too strong vs Terran.
I think a reasonable change would be adding a Marauder health upgrade (either in addition to or as part of the combat shield upgrade), so that TvP early game is slightly weakened, while the late-game is unaffected. Terran already has enough trouble with vP late-game, and the Marauder is the staple unit.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
That I could definitely get behind, but the research would need to be higher tier than Combat Shields. Perhaps require a Factory, the way that Nitro packs do.
Marauders could be 110 hp without the upgrade and 125 or even 130 with it.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
What about an overall stim nerf? Reduce the duration to 10 from 12 seconds maybe? I don't know. I'm just trying to think of ways to make Marauders less dominant early game and during the transition to midgame vs Protoss, without changing the lategame balance and their ability to deal with Zerg units.
Something also has to be done about how quickly a small marauder drop (two medivacs full) can snipe a Nexus or Hatchery. Eight marauders, even if you have a couple troops there to fend them off, can probably kill that expansion before you can reinforce with your army, and a slightly bigger drop of 12 will definitely kill it before you can do anything about it unless you already have your army there.
i don't think marauders need stim. the main thing it's used for is mobility (edit: and sniping buildings I guess), but that seems a bit unfair. imbalanced? meh, maybe not...but I don't think it'd be such a terrible thing if terrans had to work a bit harder to manage their armies.
like i said, the main thing is i don't think marauders need stim. they'd still be great without it.
as far as ghosts go, i just don't like how they utterly nullify sentries, immortals, and HTs. Sure. HTs do something similar to medivacs, infestors, etc., but feedback is considerably harder to pull off since it's not an AoE and HTs are incredibly slow. The movement speed of ghosts makes such a difference compared to HTs. I don't really have a suggestion to fix the problem though...maybe decrease their range by 2.
Guek on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Maybe stim could increase attack speed only in exchange for taking less health from marauders?
They'd do even more poorly against chargelots and Colossi than they already do. That would also be incredibly bad for late-game TvP balance.
Edit: Not that Marauders currently do poorly against Colossi currently... But they certainly would do poorly without the increased Stim movement speed.
They'd do even more poorly against chargelots and Colossi than they already do. That would also be incredibly bad for late-game TvP balance.
Edit: Not that Marauders currently do poorly against Colossi currently... But they certainly would do poorly without the increased Stim movement speed.
Maybe they'd have to *gasp* build stuff that isn't MMM?
I hear Thors shrug off Storms, and we can't feedback them now either. Mech does fairly well vs both Collosi and Storms (with good placement).
Okay, I'll rephrase it a bit. Currently, Marauders with stim and micro will kill Chargelots. It just takes forever to eat through all that health, all the while taking shots from the chasing Stalkers. Marauders don't feel particularly effective against Zealots, and because of Colossi/Templar, going Marine heavy doesn't feel safe at all.
This could certainly just be me being a mediocre player... But it seems the community opinion regarding TvP thinks that Terran feels too strong early and too weak late. A change like taking stim movespeed away from Marauders will really throw the matchup.
And as far as Mech goes, the problem is mobility. Thors and Tanks are slow as fuck, and you don't have anything cool like Spider Mines to prevent the Protoss from going anywhere they want. Plus Immortals. And Phoenix.
what about the fact that marine/marauder/viking can overpower gateway/colossi? or that marine/marauder/ghost, if microed decently, can also decimate gateway/HTs? Throw ravens in the mix for PDDs or medivacs to supplement bio and I really don't think taking away stim for marauders would ruin the matchup.
and though thors and tanks are pretty slow, that doesn't mean they're not useful against toss. immortals do counter them pretty fierce though
Robo stuff is not immobile compared to Siege Tanks. Plus, you can use Warp-in to harass almost anywhere, which is a significant weakness of Mech builds. MMM+G isn't the standard because Terran players are lazy. It's because Mech is so slow and unsafe.
Marauder balance changes that affects early and late-game differently is just fine. I don't think any reasonable Terran would argue with that. Something that breaks Marauders completely though... Though I'm sure we'll disagree with what could be considered breaking Marauders.
i don't think marauders need stim. the main thing it's used for is mobility (edit: and sniping buildings I guess), but that seems a bit unfair. imbalanced? meh, maybe not...but I don't think it'd be such a terrible thing if terrans had to work a bit harder to manage their armies.
like i said, the main thing is i don't think marauders need stim. they'd still be great without it.
as far as ghosts go, i just don't like how they utterly nullify sentries, immortals, and HTs. Sure. HTs do something similar to medivacs, infestors, etc., but feedback is considerably harder to pull off since it's not an AoE and HTs are incredibly slow. The movement speed of ghosts makes such a difference compared to HTs. I don't really have a suggestion to fix the problem though...maybe decrease their range by 2.
as P, my biggest problem with ghosts was when they were early, and came with a host of marauders. 3-4 (well placed) EMPs drains all the shields, and mana, and the toss army, including buildings just melts to a laughable amount of marauders, and unless you can tease out EMPs from the ghosts, you're boned.
Robo stuff is not immobile compared to Siege Tanks. Plus, you can use Warp-in to harass almost anywhere, which is a significant weakness of Mech builds. MMM+G isn't the standard because Terran players are lazy. It's because Mech is so slow and unsafe.
Yeah man if only Terrans had some kind of drop harass capability.
Dot dot dot.
Also, Immortals, Colossus and tanks are the same speed. Hellions are faster than anything toss have. I'm not trying to be all imba-imba but complaining about a lack of mobility and drop capability as T compared to P?
Robo stuff is not immobile compared to Siege Tanks. Plus, you can use Warp-in to harass almost anywhere, which is a significant weakness of Mech builds. MMM+G isn't the standard because Terran players are lazy. It's because Mech is so slow and unsafe.
Yeah man if only Terrans had some kind of drop harass capability.
Dot dot dot.
Also, Immortals, Colossus and tanks are the same speed. Hellions are faster than anything toss have. I'm not trying to be all imba-imba but complaining about a lack of mobility and drop capability as T compared to P?
Seriously.
Medevacs are the most ridiculous unit. "Oh hey, here's a unit I need to build anyway. It is super easy to get, can fly, can HEAL, can transport units and is also pretty fast. It has all those things FROM THE START without the need for any upgrades."
Seriously, a DROPSHIP THAT CAN HEAL. If I warp in like, 4 zealots in your base, you can defend with a small amount of units. If the T drops in like 4 Marauders the Medevac will just heal them and I need way more units to defend against that.
god the ragequit.tv guy or whatever is like crota level bad
I find it unwatchable.
wilting on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
sort of like how you need pylons anyway and they grant extreme mobility for fresh troops.
and zerg should spread creep anyway and they get that bonus
I tried to say a small thing to marauders would be cool, then I go to sleep and come back to see you want to get rid of stim? I don't think there's any imbalance at all, let alone one so severe you should remove a staple ability from a unit.
also... forever people will say marauders can kite chargelots... but do you realize how long that takes? and how much attention? I don't like to micro for five minutes to deal with equal number zealots (assuming you have -nothing else- that can shoot my maurauders while I'm microing) and that's what it takes. that's a supreme example of the problem of theorycrafting. something that is technically possible but is not all that likely to occur in a real game. that is, infinite kiting of chargelots.
also I don't consider colossus immobile because they can walk in a direct line over and cliffs. that changes things drastically.
pure MMM gets complained about, and gets beat by a lot of things. then our counters to those things (ghost, stim to move out the way of storm with the littlest bit of health left) are also complained about. it's a bit much.
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
I think Marauders and Medivacs are basically fine. If they have lots of medivacs it means they don't have something else. And marauders... well, they're just a really good unit. Not even the scariest unit terran has.
also I don't consider colossus immobile because they can walk in a direct line over and cliffs. that changes things drastically.
Only thing I'd say to that is, you'd be more right if colossus were safer by themselves. But since they get roundly buttfucked without gateway support, I think the cliffwalking thing is not as useful as it appears.
Posts
- Season 1 team : TSL_FruitDealer, PipiJung, IMLosirA, TSL_Pooh, TSL_Pretty
- Season 2 team : IMNestea, MakaPrime.WE, MarineKingPrime.WE, HongUnPrime.WE, IMMvp
- Season 3 team : oGsMC, Liquid_Jinro, oGsInca, oGsTop, LeenockfOu
Season 2 vs Season 3 is in 2 hours I think. Not interested?
EDIT: here is the link http://www.gomtv.net/common/live.gom
Steam ID
But that sounds interesting.
Gisado challenge has been going on for a few nights I think, last night saw some bitchin' Maka games. The mass raven & mule one was particularly fun. Maka knows how to diss on a fool.
What.
the biggest reason I like early ghosts is I get to pretend the toss won't get hts once they know I have plenty of emp on the field
Ugh.
I wonder if maybe the only change a marauder needs is a slight build time increase. For such powerful units, a 2 base terran can rebuild them incredibly fast and of the t1 units they are definitely the most powerful, you cannot deny that.
I am not cool with the removing stim or removing concussive ideas passed around from time to time, though
edit: 125.
And they take 30 seconds to build.
Say either increase the build time from 30 to 33 seconds, or drop the health from 125 to 115.
Either of those I think would be a brilliant change.
OR reduce the rate that medivacs heal at, but give them better healing efficiency. I think thats a big part of what makes marauders so great.
Marauders could be 110 hp without the upgrade and 125 or even 130 with it.
Something also has to be done about how quickly a small marauder drop (two medivacs full) can snipe a Nexus or Hatchery. Eight marauders, even if you have a couple troops there to fend them off, can probably kill that expansion before you can reinforce with your army, and a slightly bigger drop of 12 will definitely kill it before you can do anything about it unless you already have your army there.
like i said, the main thing is i don't think marauders need stim. they'd still be great without it.
as far as ghosts go, i just don't like how they utterly nullify sentries, immortals, and HTs. Sure. HTs do something similar to medivacs, infestors, etc., but feedback is considerably harder to pull off since it's not an AoE and HTs are incredibly slow. The movement speed of ghosts makes such a difference compared to HTs. I don't really have a suggestion to fix the problem though...maybe decrease their range by 2.
Edit: Not that Marauders currently do poorly against Colossi currently... But they certainly would do poorly without the increased Stim movement speed.
Maybe they'd have to *gasp* build stuff that isn't MMM?
I hear Thors shrug off Storms, and we can't feedback them now either. Mech does fairly well vs both Collosi and Storms (with good placement).
Okay, I'll rephrase it a bit. Currently, Marauders with stim and micro will kill Chargelots. It just takes forever to eat through all that health, all the while taking shots from the chasing Stalkers. Marauders don't feel particularly effective against Zealots, and because of Colossi/Templar, going Marine heavy doesn't feel safe at all.
This could certainly just be me being a mediocre player... But it seems the community opinion regarding TvP thinks that Terran feels too strong early and too weak late. A change like taking stim movespeed away from Marauders will really throw the matchup.
And as far as Mech goes, the problem is mobility. Thors and Tanks are slow as fuck, and you don't have anything cool like Spider Mines to prevent the Protoss from going anywhere they want. Plus Immortals. And Phoenix.
thanks
Good luck trying to catch a bunch of marines running around the map with Collosi or High Templar.
and though thors and tanks are pretty slow, that doesn't mean they're not useful against toss. immortals do counter them pretty fierce though
Marauder balance changes that affects early and late-game differently is just fine. I don't think any reasonable Terran would argue with that. Something that breaks Marauders completely though... Though I'm sure we'll disagree with what could be considered breaking Marauders.
as P, my biggest problem with ghosts was when they were early, and came with a host of marauders. 3-4 (well placed) EMPs drains all the shields, and mana, and the toss army, including buildings just melts to a laughable amount of marauders, and unless you can tease out EMPs from the ghosts, you're boned.
Joe's Stream.
Yeah man if only Terrans had some kind of drop harass capability.
Dot dot dot.
Also, Immortals, Colossus and tanks are the same speed. Hellions are faster than anything toss have. I'm not trying to be all imba-imba but complaining about a lack of mobility and drop capability as T compared to P?
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Seriously.
Medevacs are the most ridiculous unit. "Oh hey, here's a unit I need to build anyway. It is super easy to get, can fly, can HEAL, can transport units and is also pretty fast. It has all those things FROM THE START without the need for any upgrades."
Seriously, a DROPSHIP THAT CAN HEAL. If I warp in like, 4 zealots in your base, you can defend with a small amount of units. If the T drops in like 4 Marauders the Medevac will just heal them and I need way more units to defend against that.
I really, REALLY do not like MedEvacs.
I'm super lazy about getting Medevacs, so I don't know about the 'need to build anyway' thing.
Sounds like I should get them more often though. :winky:
I find it unwatchable.
and zerg should spread creep anyway and they get that bonus
I tried to say a small thing to marauders would be cool, then I go to sleep and come back to see you want to get rid of stim? I don't think there's any imbalance at all, let alone one so severe you should remove a staple ability from a unit.
also... forever people will say marauders can kite chargelots... but do you realize how long that takes? and how much attention? I don't like to micro for five minutes to deal with equal number zealots (assuming you have -nothing else- that can shoot my maurauders while I'm microing) and that's what it takes. that's a supreme example of the problem of theorycrafting. something that is technically possible but is not all that likely to occur in a real game. that is, infinite kiting of chargelots.
also I don't consider colossus immobile because they can walk in a direct line over and cliffs. that changes things drastically.
pure MMM gets complained about, and gets beat by a lot of things. then our counters to those things (ghost, stim to move out the way of storm with the littlest bit of health left) are also complained about. it's a bit much.
Only thing I'd say to that is, you'd be more right if colossus were safer by themselves. But since they get roundly buttfucked without gateway support, I think the cliffwalking thing is not as useful as it appears.