i said before that i don't think stim makes marauders imbalanced, just that i don't think they really need it or that removing stim would impact their overall effectiveness all that much. for all the complaining about marauders, i just wonder how the game would level out if stim were removed.
i'm still gonna keep saying though that ghosts need some kind of tweak. it seems odd to me that terran has a unit with a spell that is literally an anti-protoss weapon. changing their range to account for the extremely slow movement of HTs would probably suffice.
I just survived a 7 pool on Steppes. I should have known something was up when their was a drone waiting at my wall for my first SCV. Failed to add a quick second depot to finish the wall just as the Zerglings arrived. Pretty poor handling of it all things being what they were.
On the plus side, after the Lings were held off, I told myself "Day9 would say this game is normal now. A slice of time." I proceeded to add Barracks and mass an army. He pushed again with Roaches/Lings and got stopped. I pushed him all the way back to his base and wiped out his army. Just as I'm about to go in for the kill, I send a single Marine in and see a ton of Zerglings hatch. Pulled back and made an expo.
I attribute this win to Day9 advice running through my head the entire time as well as my opponent's questionable play.
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sort of like how you need pylons anyway and they grant extreme mobility for fresh troops.
and zerg should spread creep anyway and they get that bonus
I tried to say a small thing to marauders would be cool, then I go to sleep and come back to see you want to get rid of stim? I don't think there's any imbalance at all, let alone one so severe you should remove a staple ability from a unit.
also... forever people will say marauders can kite chargelots... but do you realize how long that takes? and how much attention? I don't like to micro for five minutes to deal with equal number zealots (assuming you have -nothing else- that can shoot my maurauders while I'm microing) and that's what it takes. that's a supreme example of the problem of theorycrafting. something that is technically possible but is not all that likely to occur in a real game. that is, infinite kiting of chargelots.
also I don't consider colossus immobile because they can walk in a direct line over and cliffs. that changes things drastically.
pure MMM gets complained about, and gets beat by a lot of things. then our counters to those things (ghost, stim to move out the way of storm with the littlest bit of health left) are also complained about. it's a bit much.
I'm not going to comment on balance, but this is completely wrong. This happens in games all the time. Marauders kite the shit out of gateway units, especially zealots, and if you don't have any forcefields to stop them then they will kill way, way more units than they are worth, if you are playing someone who's half decent.
I'm sorry that you "don't like to," but it doesn't mean that people who are good at starcraft don't do it.
Robo stuff is not immobile compared to Siege Tanks. Plus, you can use Warp-in to harass almost anywhere, which is a significant weakness of Mech builds. MMM+G isn't the standard because Terran players are lazy. It's because Mech is so slow and unsafe.
Yeah man if only Terrans had some kind of drop harass capability.
Dot dot dot.
Also, Immortals, Colossus and tanks are the same speed. Hellions are faster than anything toss have. I'm not trying to be all imba-imba but complaining about a lack of mobility and drop capability as T compared to P?
Again, I'm referring to a Meching Terran here. MMM has no mobility problems, which is one reason why it's preferred to Mech. As for the rest, Tanks are decently quick... when unsieged. In order to actually fight a Protoss army, they have to be sieged before the Protoss gets in range, otherwise they get picked off quickly, which means meching is slow as hell, extremely vulnerable on the move, and very bad at responding to harassment.
Every Protoss has the tools to respond to Terran harassment through Warp-ins.
That's not to say Mech is bad at everything. I'm just saying it has significant weaknesses that make the standard MMM+G the preferred build, and this is why I think any significant late-game Marauder nerfs will completely break an already very difficult matchup for T.
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Sometimes I wake up and read 3 pages of the thread and it feels like Protoss players won't be happy until Protoss can build High Templar that start with 200 energy and Storm doesn't require research and deals 2000 damage and costs 1 energy and HTs are Tier 1 units.
It's like "Nerf everything Terran, buff everything Toss, kthx"
Also this whole "well Marauders are unkillable kitings gods" bullshit has got to stop. Yes, if you only have Zealots vs. Marauders, the Marauders will kite the zealots for infinity time! If you can show me a game where that has been the army comp, I will show you two godawful players. Sentries/Force Fields exist for a reason, stop acting like they're some hindrance, they're the same tech as Marauders so it's a pretty safe bet that they exist to fight Marauders.
EDIT: Guek have you ever seen a TvP in which late game the Terran has no ghosts? HTs will obliterate your army without even trying.
I'm just glad that The Slow Push hasn't gained much traction, because Jesus Christ that is the worst thing in the world to face.
Yeah, hit them when their tanks are unsieged! BUT THEY LEAP FROG THEM ALL THE WAY TO YOUR BASE AND YOU DIE.
Didn't day9 do a daily on that? You're suppose to use pheonix or something. My plan against that, however, is to just die
The Slow Push, which was scary from SC1, included building missile turrets, supply depots, and bunkers along the way with the tanks, so there was never any period of vulnerability. Phoenixes would get killed by turrets unless you made a ton, and if you made a ton you don't have money for other units.
Edit: The way you were supposed to beat it was, essentially, to have a shitload more units than them. So you have to be expanding when you see them doing something like that, just so that you have way more shit than them when they come knocking on your door. Of course, that wouldn't always be enough because I hate tanks.
Sometimes I wake up and read 3 pages of the thread and it feels like Protoss players won't be happy until Protoss can build High Templar that start with 200 energy and Storm doesn't require research and deals 2000 damage and costs 1 energy and HTs are Tier 1 units.
It's like "Nerf everything Terran, buff everything Toss, kthx"
Also this whole "well Marauders are unkillable kitings gods" bullshit has got to stop. Yes, if you only have Zealots vs. Marauders, the Marauders will kite the zealots for infinity time! If you can show me a game where that has been the army comp, I will show you two godawful players. Sentries/Force Fields exist for a reason, stop acting like they're some hindrance, they're the same tech as Marauders so it's a pretty safe bet that they exist to fight Marauders.
EDIT: Guek have you ever seen a TvP in which late game the Terran has no ghosts? HTs will obliterate your army without even trying.
Even with Ghosts, HTs will obliterate your army. Warp-in with Amulet is very effective, and it doesn't take that many storms before your army is completely in the red.
I'm just glad that The Slow Push hasn't gained much traction, because Jesus Christ that is the worst thing in the world to face.
Yeah, hit them when their tanks are unsieged! BUT THEY LEAP FROG THEM ALL THE WAY TO YOUR BASE AND YOU DIE.
Didn't day9 do a daily on that? You're suppose to use pheonix or something. My plan against that, however, is to just die
The Slow Push, which was scary from SC1, included building missile turrets, supply depots, and bunkers along the way with the tanks, so there was never any period of vulnerability. Phoenixes would get killed by turrets unless you made a ton, and if you made a ton you don't have money for other units.
Edit: The way you were supposed to beat it was, essentially, to have a shitload more units than them. So you have to be expanding when you see them doing something like that, just so that you have way more shit than them when they come knocking on your door. Of course, that wouldn't always be enough because I hate tanks.
That sounds horrible, I'm glad you can't build stuff on creep...
Sometimes I wake up and read 3 pages of the thread and it feels like Protoss players won't be happy until Protoss can build High Templar that start with 200 energy and Storm doesn't require research and deals 2000 damage and costs 1 energy and HTs are Tier 1 units.
It's like "Nerf everything Terran, buff everything Toss, kthx"
Also this whole "well Marauders are unkillable kitings gods" bullshit has got to stop. Yes, if you only have Zealots vs. Marauders, the Marauders will kite the zealots for infinity time! If you can show me a game where that has been the army comp, I will show you two godawful players. Sentries/Force Fields exist for a reason, stop acting like they're some hindrance, they're the same tech as Marauders so it's a pretty safe bet that they exist to fight Marauders.
EDIT: Guek have you ever seen a TvP in which late game the Terran has no ghosts? HTs will obliterate your army without even trying.
yes, I still agree that TvP is in toss's favor once you get to late game and there needs to be some sort of fix such as a nerf to storm, etc. That doesn't mean early game isn't heavily terran favored and perhaps needs a tweek as well. Saying HTs are super effective as a 3 base toss kind of ignores the fact that getting there in TvP is not easy. Teching to HTs is also a huge investment in time and resources, let alone spawning them mid battle with amulet (which I admit is really awesome).
a nerf to storm but a reduction in teching cost would probably even things out by making them less effective late game but having them come out sooner early game. i'd still probably resent ghosts though for having an ability tailored to making 50% of all toss ground units worthless and dealing massive damage to everything else but colossi.
I'm just glad that The Slow Push hasn't gained much traction, because Jesus Christ that is the worst thing in the world to face.
Yeah, hit them when their tanks are unsieged! BUT THEY LEAP FROG THEM ALL THE WAY TO YOUR BASE AND YOU DIE.
Didn't day9 do a daily on that? You're suppose to use pheonix or something. My plan against that, however, is to just die
The Slow Push, which was scary from SC1, included building missile turrets, supply depots, and bunkers along the way with the tanks, so there was never any period of vulnerability. Phoenixes would get killed by turrets unless you made a ton, and if you made a ton you don't have money for other units.
Edit: The way you were supposed to beat it was, essentially, to have a shitload more units than them. So you have to be expanding when you see them doing something like that, just so that you have way more shit than them when they come knocking on your door. Of course, that wouldn't always be enough because I hate tanks.
on the flip side, protoss could recall dozens of units into your base at once to take advantage of your extreme immobility and could also render huge swaths of your tanks and vultures totally ineffectual for long periods of time.
I'm just glad that The Slow Push hasn't gained much traction, because Jesus Christ that is the worst thing in the world to face.
Yeah, hit them when their tanks are unsieged! BUT THEY LEAP FROG THEM ALL THE WAY TO YOUR BASE AND YOU DIE.
Didn't day9 do a daily on that? You're suppose to use pheonix or something. My plan against that, however, is to just die
The Slow Push, which was scary from SC1, included building missile turrets, supply depots, and bunkers along the way with the tanks, so there was never any period of vulnerability. Phoenixes would get killed by turrets unless you made a ton, and if you made a ton you don't have money for other units.
Edit: The way you were supposed to beat it was, essentially, to have a shitload more units than them. So you have to be expanding when you see them doing something like that, just so that you have way more shit than them when they come knocking on your door. Of course, that wouldn't always be enough because I hate tanks.
That sounds horrible, I'm glad you can't build stuff on creep...
It was scarier in SC1 though, since the turrets would keep away your observers, which means you can't see the MINEFIELD
I'm just glad that The Slow Push hasn't gained much traction, because Jesus Christ that is the worst thing in the world to face.
Yeah, hit them when their tanks are unsieged! BUT THEY LEAP FROG THEM ALL THE WAY TO YOUR BASE AND YOU DIE.
Didn't day9 do a daily on that? You're suppose to use pheonix or something. My plan against that, however, is to just die
The Slow Push, which was scary from SC1, included building missile turrets, supply depots, and bunkers along the way with the tanks, so there was never any period of vulnerability. Phoenixes would get killed by turrets unless you made a ton, and if you made a ton you don't have money for other units.
Edit: The way you were supposed to beat it was, essentially, to have a shitload more units than them. So you have to be expanding when you see them doing something like that, just so that you have way more shit than them when they come knocking on your door. Of course, that wouldn't always be enough because I hate tanks.
on the flip side, protoss could recall dozens of units into your base at once to take advantage of your extreme immobility and could also render huge swaths of your tanks and vultures totally ineffectual for long periods of time.
Yeah, that was once you got arbiters, which did take a really long time. Certainly longer than it takes to get siege mode ;_;
man, i don't really even care that motherships are a throway unit, but it'd be nice if there was clear reason to make one in certain games. giving them a speed buff alone would probably spur more use.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Motherships need something. There shouldn't be a unit that is ineffective and exists for fun.
I think motherships are pretty awesome on paper. Mass recall is an amazing ability and is reason enough to get one. We've seen HuK almost win games with mass recall alone to bypass ramps. Maybe chop 100 gas off their cost. 400/300 instead of 400/400.
Especially if you're only allowed to get 1 at any given time. To me that says that *having* the unit should be a game changer.
I think the problem, though, is the same as the carrier. I think they're both useful units, if you could actually get to them in an effecient way. So, I think the problem is the fleet beacon's cost and the carrier build time. Maybe one of you guys who's better with custom maps can test out that theorycrafting, but the fact that it is the mothership AND carriers not getting built even though they have useful abilities means, to me, that the problem is not the units, but *getting* those units.
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
Man I missed the HT/Ghost discussion. Well, just throwing in my 2 cents worth. Ghosts do not completely shut down HT's. That said, if you manage to EMP every single HT in a battle, that's it, the protoss is hosed. Sure he can try to retreat and warp in more, but thanks to stim it is impossible to retreat. Also, comments like "you better EMP every single HT or you autolose" is BS. If you can limit the protoss to only 2 or 3 storms, that's huge. That many storms are necessary just to cover a large bio army, and you can move out of them and he doesn't have any storms to chase you with. Frankly, when I play TvP, I actually prefer to see the protoss going HT's rather than colossi. I don't like making vikings. And you hit when he only has a few templar. It's easy to dodge the initial storms and then he doesn't have anything left. The only time I've lost against HT's is when they manage to make a lot of them and can just keep storming. Then, yes, shit gets rough (though I've won games like this...let me see if I can find a replay). But that's what ghosts are for. You don't need to get every last HT, just enough of them that he can't keep storming at will.
And I don't understand why terrans don't make 6,7,8,9,10+ ghosts (mid-late game of course). I'll usually have 15+ HT's late game. With that many ghosts you don't even need to target the HT's....just EMP the shit out of everything on the screen and you'll catch most of them.
Plus they've taken away the VR speed upgrade in the newest patch unless something has changed. Which means there is literally zero reason to get the fleet beacon except for carriers (rarely built) and mothership (never built).
*shrug* No different than getting broodlords. I'm willing to bet getting broodlords is even more of a headache. What's the toss tech tree like. Starport -> fleet beacon -> carrier/mothership? I believe it lets you build the beacon immediately after starport. That's 450/350 in building costs not counting the cost of the actual carrier/mothership. A carrier is 350/250.
Zerg has to spire -> infestation pit -> hive -> greater spire -> corruptor -> broodlord. The building requirements are 600/600 (not counting corruptors, since technically those are included in unit cost). A broodlord is 300/250, a bit cheaper than a carrier, especially considering you have to build some interceptors, but I'd rather have a carrier than a broodlord or even two any day of the year.
eh, its much easier to transition into broodlords. they're not there as a unit you specifically build towards, they're there so you have something to do with your leftover corruptors. in that sense they're much more useful than carriers or motherships because teching to them is somewhat natural whereas carrier/mothership is a deliberate tech path that takes forever and is completely out of the way of most build orders.
the fact of the matter is, toss has the shittiest air path for a variety of reasons, even if vrs/phoenixes/carriers are useful units. i think the impending phoenix buff will change that quite a bit though and we'll see a lot more stargate play.
afterall, phoenixes are pretty sick when used well
Plus they've taken away the VR speed upgrade in the newest patch unless something has changed. Which means there is literally zero reason to get the fleet beacon except for carriers (rarely built) and mothership (never built).
Well, I think they're removing the speed upgrade in part because very few people were building beacons in the first place. Generally, I think most people who are using void rays in their main force don't mind the slower VRs so they don't just race ahead of their ball and the people who rush with them don't have time to get the upgrade. I could be wrong, but sinking 450m 350g to only get a small speed boost to a unit that already keeps up with my ball wasn't worth it to me. It should be noted that 300m and 200g of that was for the fleet beacon. I bet if the fleet beacon was 200m 200g (like the robo bay) people would actually build it AND even get carriers.
Nonsense. Even if you build some corruptors for anti-colossus and then decide "well it's late game enough, I suppose I should do something with these corruptors and turn them into broodlords." it's not like getting corruptors is the hard part. You need infestation pit, even if you didn't go infestors (why the fuck would you against toss anyway), then tech hive (what.. you're gonna get that crackling upgrade?), then upgrade greater spire (only for broodlords). Natural teching my ass.
Nonsense. Even if you build some corruptors for anti-colossus and then decide "well it's late game enough, I suppose I should do something with these corruptors and turn them into broodlords." it's not like getting corruptors is the hard part. You need infestation pit, even if you didn't go infestors (why the fuck would you against toss anyway), then tech hive (what.. you're gonna get that crackling upgrade?), then upgrade greater spire (only for broodlords). Natural teching my ass.
whatever. the fact that it's more common to see broodlords than carriers or motherships is a testament to me being right! PEACE! :rotate:
edit: also, it seems to me that the only real out of the way structure you need to get is greater spire...if you're well into late game, wouldn't you want ultras or broods anyway if you can afford it? of course, if you're stuck on your second or third base 25+ minutes into the game, you probably don't have the economy to support either anyway
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Euro people, you should totally try calling Blizzard.
Nonsense. Even if you build some corruptors for anti-colossus and then decide "well it's late game enough, I suppose I should do something with these corruptors and turn them into broodlords." it's not like getting corruptors is the hard part. You need infestation pit, even if you didn't go infestors (why the fuck would you against toss anyway), then tech hive (what.. you're gonna get that crackling upgrade?), then upgrade greater spire (only for broodlords). Natural teching my ass.
Yeah, but to get a decent amount of carriers, you would need how many stargates? Each carrier takes 2 minutes to build without chronoboost. That is crazy. To get a decent amount, you need AT LEAST 2-3 stargates, which is also a lot of money and time. If you already have that many stargates, then it's not so bad, but there are not many situations where you already have those stargates, and even once you get them, carriers take a ludicrously long time to come out.
Zerg has the advantage of already having production buildings for every unit, so even if it takes a while to unlock broodlords, you can instantly make a bunch of them.
sort of like how you need pylons anyway and they grant extreme mobility for fresh troops.
and zerg should spread creep anyway and they get that bonus
I tried to say a small thing to marauders would be cool, then I go to sleep and come back to see you want to get rid of stim? I don't think there's any imbalance at all, let alone one so severe you should remove a staple ability from a unit.
also... forever people will say marauders can kite chargelots... but do you realize how long that takes? and how much attention? I don't like to micro for five minutes to deal with equal number zealots (assuming you have -nothing else- that can shoot my maurauders while I'm microing) and that's what it takes. that's a supreme example of the problem of theorycrafting. something that is technically possible but is not all that likely to occur in a real game. that is, infinite kiting of chargelots.
also I don't consider colossus immobile because they can walk in a direct line over and cliffs. that changes things drastically.
pure MMM gets complained about, and gets beat by a lot of things. then our counters to those things (ghost, stim to move out the way of storm with the littlest bit of health left) are also complained about. it's a bit much.
I'm not going to comment on balance, but this is completely wrong. This happens in games all the time. Marauders kite the shit out of gateway units, especially zealots, and if you don't have any forcefields to stop them then they will kill way, way more units than they are worth, if you are playing someone who's half decent.
I'm sorry that you "don't like to," but it doesn't mean that people who are good at starcraft don't do it.
alright the 'don't like to kits for five minutes' was me being sarcastic, sorry it wasn't clear enough... I could have said 'I don't like to ignore every other part of the map and game and army so I can kite zealots for five minutes'.
not that I don't enjoy actually doing it.
but seriously now... either we are talking about a small group of only zealots in which case while I'm doing that I'm ignoring the entire rest of the map, or we are talking about an army that really ought to have stalkers. or force fields. or colossus. to punish the infinite kiting while all my shots are eaten up by the zealots. zealtos take fucking forever to kill.
I'm not a great player, and I know nothing about how long structures/units take to build, but I always feel that the spire, the greater spire and morphing broodlords each take a million years to complete.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
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i'm still gonna keep saying though that ghosts need some kind of tweak. it seems odd to me that terran has a unit with a spell that is literally an anti-protoss weapon. changing their range to account for the extremely slow movement of HTs would probably suffice.
On the plus side, after the Lings were held off, I told myself "Day9 would say this game is normal now. A slice of time." I proceeded to add Barracks and mass an army. He pushed again with Roaches/Lings and got stopped. I pushed him all the way back to his base and wiped out his army. Just as I'm about to go in for the kill, I send a single Marine in and see a ton of Zerglings hatch. Pulled back and made an expo.
I attribute this win to Day9 advice running through my head the entire time as well as my opponent's questionable play.
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I'm not going to comment on balance, but this is completely wrong. This happens in games all the time. Marauders kite the shit out of gateway units, especially zealots, and if you don't have any forcefields to stop them then they will kill way, way more units than they are worth, if you are playing someone who's half decent.
I'm sorry that you "don't like to," but it doesn't mean that people who are good at starcraft don't do it.
Again, I'm referring to a Meching Terran here. MMM has no mobility problems, which is one reason why it's preferred to Mech. As for the rest, Tanks are decently quick... when unsieged. In order to actually fight a Protoss army, they have to be sieged before the Protoss gets in range, otherwise they get picked off quickly, which means meching is slow as hell, extremely vulnerable on the move, and very bad at responding to harassment.
Every Protoss has the tools to respond to Terran harassment through Warp-ins.
That's not to say Mech is bad at everything. I'm just saying it has significant weaknesses that make the standard MMM+G the preferred build, and this is why I think any significant late-game Marauder nerfs will completely break an already very difficult matchup for T.
sometimes i forget to research siege
doesnt usually work out well
but they shoot so quickly!
It's like "Nerf everything Terran, buff everything Toss, kthx"
Also this whole "well Marauders are unkillable kitings gods" bullshit has got to stop. Yes, if you only have Zealots vs. Marauders, the Marauders will kite the zealots for infinity time! If you can show me a game where that has been the army comp, I will show you two godawful players. Sentries/Force Fields exist for a reason, stop acting like they're some hindrance, they're the same tech as Marauders so it's a pretty safe bet that they exist to fight Marauders.
EDIT: Guek have you ever seen a TvP in which late game the Terran has no ghosts? HTs will obliterate your army without even trying.
Yeah, hit them when their tanks are unsieged! BUT THEY LEAP FROG THEM ALL THE WAY TO YOUR BASE AND YOU DIE.
Didn't day9 do a daily on that? You're suppose to use pheonix or something. My plan against that, however, is to just die
The Slow Push, which was scary from SC1, included building missile turrets, supply depots, and bunkers along the way with the tanks, so there was never any period of vulnerability. Phoenixes would get killed by turrets unless you made a ton, and if you made a ton you don't have money for other units.
Edit: The way you were supposed to beat it was, essentially, to have a shitload more units than them. So you have to be expanding when you see them doing something like that, just so that you have way more shit than them when they come knocking on your door. Of course, that wouldn't always be enough because I hate tanks.
its really boring to slow push
Even with Ghosts, HTs will obliterate your army. Warp-in with Amulet is very effective, and it doesn't take that many storms before your army is completely in the red.
That sounds horrible, I'm glad you can't build stuff on creep...
yes, I still agree that TvP is in toss's favor once you get to late game and there needs to be some sort of fix such as a nerf to storm, etc. That doesn't mean early game isn't heavily terran favored and perhaps needs a tweek as well. Saying HTs are super effective as a 3 base toss kind of ignores the fact that getting there in TvP is not easy. Teching to HTs is also a huge investment in time and resources, let alone spawning them mid battle with amulet (which I admit is really awesome).
a nerf to storm but a reduction in teching cost would probably even things out by making them less effective late game but having them come out sooner early game. i'd still probably resent ghosts though for having an ability tailored to making 50% of all toss ground units worthless and dealing massive damage to everything else but colossi.
on the flip side, protoss could recall dozens of units into your base at once to take advantage of your extreme immobility and could also render huge swaths of your tanks and vultures totally ineffectual for long periods of time.
It was scarier in SC1 though, since the turrets would keep away your observers, which means you can't see the MINEFIELD
Yeah, that was once you got arbiters, which did take a really long time. Certainly longer than it takes to get siege mode ;_;
At least we still have recall in SC2 right?!?!
man, i don't really even care that motherships are a throway unit, but it'd be nice if there was clear reason to make one in certain games. giving them a speed buff alone would probably spur more use.
the speed nerf really killed the mothership
its a slow arbiter that you can only make one of
I think the problem, though, is the same as the carrier. I think they're both useful units, if you could actually get to them in an effecient way. So, I think the problem is the fleet beacon's cost and the carrier build time. Maybe one of you guys who's better with custom maps can test out that theorycrafting, but the fact that it is the mothership AND carriers not getting built even though they have useful abilities means, to me, that the problem is not the units, but *getting* those units.
And I don't understand why terrans don't make 6,7,8,9,10+ ghosts (mid-late game of course). I'll usually have 15+ HT's late game. With that many ghosts you don't even need to target the HT's....just EMP the shit out of everything on the screen and you'll catch most of them.
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Zerg has to spire -> infestation pit -> hive -> greater spire -> corruptor -> broodlord. The building requirements are 600/600 (not counting corruptors, since technically those are included in unit cost). A broodlord is 300/250, a bit cheaper than a carrier, especially considering you have to build some interceptors, but I'd rather have a carrier than a broodlord or even two any day of the year.
the fact of the matter is, toss has the shittiest air path for a variety of reasons, even if vrs/phoenixes/carriers are useful units. i think the impending phoenix buff will change that quite a bit though and we'll see a lot more stargate play.
afterall, phoenixes are pretty sick when used well
Well, I think they're removing the speed upgrade in part because very few people were building beacons in the first place. Generally, I think most people who are using void rays in their main force don't mind the slower VRs so they don't just race ahead of their ball and the people who rush with them don't have time to get the upgrade. I could be wrong, but sinking 450m 350g to only get a small speed boost to a unit that already keeps up with my ball wasn't worth it to me. It should be noted that 300m and 200g of that was for the fleet beacon. I bet if the fleet beacon was 200m 200g (like the robo bay) people would actually build it AND even get carriers.
i suppose 200/200 for the FB would be alright...sounds similar to colossi. same price for the robo, plus you gotta get thermal lance.
now if only they didn't take 2 minutes to build + interceptor build time to become useful...
whatever. the fact that it's more common to see broodlords than carriers or motherships is a testament to me being right! PEACE! :rotate:
edit: also, it seems to me that the only real out of the way structure you need to get is greater spire...if you're well into late game, wouldn't you want ultras or broods anyway if you can afford it? of course, if you're stuck on your second or third base 25+ minutes into the game, you probably don't have the economy to support either anyway
Euro people, you should totally try calling Blizzard.
Yeah, but to get a decent amount of carriers, you would need how many stargates? Each carrier takes 2 minutes to build without chronoboost. That is crazy. To get a decent amount, you need AT LEAST 2-3 stargates, which is also a lot of money and time. If you already have that many stargates, then it's not so bad, but there are not many situations where you already have those stargates, and even once you get them, carriers take a ludicrously long time to come out.
Zerg has the advantage of already having production buildings for every unit, so even if it takes a while to unlock broodlords, you can instantly make a bunch of them.
alright the 'don't like to kits for five minutes' was me being sarcastic, sorry it wasn't clear enough... I could have said 'I don't like to ignore every other part of the map and game and army so I can kite zealots for five minutes'.
not that I don't enjoy actually doing it.
but seriously now... either we are talking about a small group of only zealots in which case while I'm doing that I'm ignoring the entire rest of the map, or we are talking about an army that really ought to have stalkers. or force fields. or colossus. to punish the infinite kiting while all my shots are eaten up by the zealots. zealtos take fucking forever to kill.
well he's not saying it's unfair, but you do have that advantage. once unit tech is unlocked you can make quite a few at once.
So there's that, for whatever it's worth.
hurr you can micro ghosts yeah thats really fucking hard bro