Yeah, we got that much. I think our problem was more party makeup and bad luck when we tried 3 player. Ranger, Rogue, Cleric. No AoE. We got swamped by multiple monsters, the Cleric couldn't hit, and having three wolves biting you every PLAYER round is horrific while a crossbow trap works you over at the same time.
That's the worst part - each player draws a wolf monster? Every single wolf activates every time someone with a Wolf under their control goes to the Villain phase.
Yeah multiple monsters of the same type are bad news
Sounds like you got bad luck.
The game is very tightly balanced - I think my group has a win rate of about 1 game in 3, but they all come down to the wire.
Get the wrong encounter at the wrong time and it can be devastating, but conversely the same encounter under different circumstances it does nothing!
So now all the essentials bits are out, which if any of the books contains all the new magic items to go with the new magic item system? I think that's the only thing I'm looking to add in to my game.
The DM's kit. And they're... not great. At all.
Looks like we're waiting til April to see some more items, and that book might not even exist anymore.
So they came up with their grand new system, presented it to the world, and then gave people no tools to work with it at all? A quick google has found a forum post claiming there is one single published heroic rare. Really?
I personally love the idea of the new system as I always felt that the old system gave the PCs too much control over their magic gear leading to optimised builds over the joy of discovery, but without large lists of items to slot into the new system it rather falls apart. Yes I could come up with my own, but I'm a time hampered DM who runs pre-published modules and wants things to just work straight out of the book please. Is that too much to ask?
So now all the essentials bits are out, which if any of the books contains all the new magic items to go with the new magic item system? I think that's the only thing I'm looking to add in to my game.
The DM's kit. And they're... not great. At all.
Looks like we're waiting til April to see some more items, and that book might not even exist anymore.
So they came up with their grand new system, presented it to the world, and then gave people no tools to work with it at all? A quick google has found a forum post claiming there is one single published heroic rare. Really?
I personally love the idea of the new system as I always felt that the old system gave the PCs too much control over their magic gear leading to optimisied builds over the joy of discovery, but without large lists of items to slot into the new system it rather falls apart. Yes I could come up with my own, but I'm a time hampered DM who runs pre-published modules and wants things to just work straight out of the book please. Is that too much to ask?
I think it is much less the "shopping for the best" issue so much as there are some abilities that you can not get anything like without resorting to a magic items. They do things that nothing else does. Saying that should be firmly outside of player control.....kinda sucks. It would be akin to requiring you to roll randomly for feats.
Oh, and I totally agree it was pants on head stupid to totally revamp the magic rules then not really publish those rules for the following six months. Nevermind that the rares are fucking horrible in some cases. Do you really want your "Character defining item" to be a +2 to melee damage?
So they came up with their grand new system, presented it to the world, and then gave people no tools to work with it at all? A quick google has found a forum post claiming there is one single published heroic rare. Really?
I personally love the idea of the new system as I always felt that the old system gave the PCs too much control over their magic gear leading to optimised builds over the joy of discovery, but without large lists of items to slot into the new system it rather falls apart. Yes I could come up with my own, but I'm a time hampered DM who runs pre-published modules and wants things to just work straight out of the book please. Is that too much to ask?
Yes, apparently. I'm in the same boat, I didn't like the way magic items were handled in core 4e and this is the only change in Essentials I'm really excited about. Only there's no support, at all, and the one book that might support it (which is coming out far, far too late) may have been canned. Nice.
I think it is much less the "shopping for the best" issue so much as there are some abilities that you can not get anything like without resorting to a magic items. They do things that nothing else does. Saying that should be firmly outside of player control.....kinda sucks. It would be akin to requiring you to roll randomly for feats.
As a DM, I felt 4E core gave players far too much control. If a player said to me they wanted an item because it would be good for their build, I'd give them a funny look and say 'no'. If they said to me 'I want this item because the flavour for it is really cool' I'd say yes. That still holds true, and if it was a rare item (or possibly even an uncommon) I'd make them go on a quest to get it or the reagents required to enchant.
The way I see it, player's control their characters. They can control what options they take (powers, feats etc) because that's the part of the game they can mechanically influence. The DM, however, controls the world. Items are a part of the world, so they get given out at his say-so. That's not to say I'd never let a player buy an item, but it would have to fit with the story and be justified to me in a way that wasn't to do with 'wanting a cool power'.
I'm aware though my DMing style is somewhat old-fashioned though. I blame 2E. We, as a group, didn't really like 3E and played 2E until only a year or so ago.
I think it is much less the "shopping for the best" issue so much as there are some abilities that you can not get anything like without resorting to a magic items. They do things that nothing else does. Saying that should be firmly outside of player control.....kinda sucks. It would be akin to requiring you to roll randomly for feats.
As a DM, I felt 4E core gave players far too much control. If a player said to me they wanted an item because it would be good for their build, I'd give them a funny look and say 'no'. If they said to me 'I want this item because the flavour for it is really cool' I'd say yes. That still holds true, and if it was a rare item (or possibly even an uncommon) I'd make them go on a quest to get it or the reagents required to enchant.
This is cool like once a campaign. Doing it every time somebody finds a magic item they'd like just turns you into heroic grocery shoppers.
The way I see it, player's control their characters. They can control what options they take (powers, feats etc) because that's the part of the game they can mechanically influence. The DM, however, controls the world. Items are a part of the world, so they get given out at his say-so. That's not to say I'd never let a player buy an item, but it would have to fit with the story and be justified to me in a way that wasn't to do with 'wanting a cool power'.
So, viewing it through your simulationist lens, why the fuck is a guy with a sword just as powerful as somebody capable of wielding magic? Oh, clearly starting out, swordguy should be more capable but once the magic guy really gets the hang of things.....
Yeah, fuck no. At some points you need to step back and ask "Does this make the game fun/good/exciting/what I and players want?"
The only reason you think you should control the character options we label magic items is because you've conceptualized them as physical items. There really isn't any reason for that. So long as we slot certain abilities only into this one, uncontrollable, upgrade path then we're going to have people fighting it.
Backing away from my own clearly gamist lens the thing that is clearly missing from the magic items is the magic. They are 90% mechanical upgrades that let you do some fucking addition. I know basic math is always a source of wonderment to me and my friends.
At this point I'd almost want to axe magic "items" in general, replace the majority of those mechanical bits with just handwaving math and let the magic items that exist be magical. Which the rare items kinda sorta do but they do it in what is becoming the trademark Wizards fashion*.
Hey, are DDI articles usable in Encounters? I attended tonight and didn't think to ask, but would like to play an Executioner.
This is up to your organizer.
edit: the old magic item system was fine. while wish lists are dumb, it's not bad to offer your players a magic item they would like to flesh out their character build once in awhile. thank god my players aren't optimizers.
either way, I am still going to use the old magic item system. I don't need official rules to tell me how to dole out magic items.
So, viewing it through your simulationist lens, why the fuck is a guy with a sword just as powerful as somebody capable of wielding magic? Oh, clearly starting out, swordguy should be more capable but once the magic guy really gets the hang of things.....
Yeah, fuck no. At some points you need to step back and ask "Does this make the game fun/good/exciting/what I and players want?"
The only reason you think you should control the character options we label magic items is because you've conceptualized them as physical items. There really isn't any reason for that. So long as we slot certain abilities only into this one, uncontrollable, upgrade path then we're going to have people fighting it.
You're right, we should acknowledge that this is a game but even so, I think you can take it too far the other way. I'd say that WotC conceptualised them as physical items, not me. If we go so far towards things as just looking at them purely as mechanics, for me all the fun of imagining starts to bleed away and all I have left is numbers. Different people enjoy different aspects of the game. I like the numbers ticking away in the background, making things work (because 4E represents for me the perfect game, it just *works*, it's hard to make a bad character mechanically and as a DM I don't have to play with maths beyond 'do these monsters equal or come close to certain XP budget? yes/no?' and 'have I given out x amount of treasure?') whilst I try to create an exciting, believable playground for the players to lose themselves in.
I wouldn't begrudge a player for liking to play around with the numbers, but magic items are one thing that, as a DM, I feel should be something I have control of; they're part of the playground. I've yet to find a player who didn't understand that and if one did appear at my table, I'd deal with it at the time and maybe compromise with a wish-list or something. (Incedently, my group unanimously voted against using wish-lists).
Backing away from my own clearly gamist lens the thing that is clearly missing from the magic items is the magic. They are 90% mechanical upgrades that let you do some fucking addition. I know basic math is always a source of wonderment to me and my friends.
At this point I'd almost want to axe magic "items" in general, replace the majority of those mechanical bits with just handwaving math and let the magic items that exist be magical. Which the rare items kinda sorta do but they do it in what is becoming the trademark Wizards fashion*.
* Late, inept and lacking in effort.
I absolutely agree with this. Magic items, by being something required mechanically, have become bland and not special or magical at all. Rare items could be the solution but, as you say, WotC have made no effort at all on that count.
My games always end up really light on magical items because I a) don't want to deal with them and b) like to have the ones I do give out feel special. This is why absolutely every 4E game I run from here on out will use the Dark Sun version of inherent bonuses.
I wouldn't begrudge a player for liking to play around with the numbers, but magic items are one thing that, as a DM, I feel should be something I have control of; they're part of the playground. I've yet to find a player who didn't understand that and if one did appear at my table, I'd deal with it at the time and maybe compromise with a wish-list or something. (Indecently, my group unanimously voted against using wish-lists).
Not to jump on you, as this is clearly a style of game your players enjoy, but this would probably drive me kind of batty. The DM having full control over item distribution and the group shying away from wishlisting makes me wonder how you determine what shows up at all? I can only assume/hope it's not purely random, so it comes down to what you choose to give the party, which in turn potentially becomes a very direct "you will find _____ because I said so, and that is based on what I think your characters want/need, which may or may not be different from what you think they want/need", and while that does have sort of an "Ironman Diablo 2: use what you find and only what you find" allure to it, given the weeks or months or years that might be spent with a character or class, having some input into what gear is found seems fairly reasonable and fitting to me given the changes that 4th Edition has made to the system.
Now, again, your group is cool with that, and that's badass. It's just not for me personally, and while I recognize the Powergamer within me, it's not even about "omg, I must have this item, as with it I can complete my 'build' and break the system and do like ten gajillion damage and have an AC approaching infinity!", but more a matter of "man, I browsed through the adventurer's vault for like 2 hours and there's some cool shit in there, and I'd love to find/have/use _____".
However, I do agree that wishlists aren't terribly optimal either at times. They can essentially become required reading for the whole group (the players to find stuff and the DM to then read up on that stuff to vet whether it fits or not into the campaign/setting). Perhaps I'm just too accustomed to players having lot of (if not too much) say in what they're carrying, from our days of Rifts forward. (subject to DM discretion, of course)
Of the two games I'm in (one ongoing from level 1 to 14 over the last year and change of irregular play, another starting up in a week or two), one has been fairly lenient with the gear distribution. Essentially, between modules the characters are given a chance to sell all the excess loot and whatever gear they don't need anymore (at 50% market value) and buy items they want to upgrade to or try out. While this likely sounds insane to some people, do keep in mind that since the DM is using only barely altered gear drops as per the modules, a lot of it is useless, and having gone at the usual 20% sale value we'd probably have actively fallen behind on the gear curve ages ago. Then, other than what we find we don't really bother with buying gear during the campaigns, especially since they are often low on excess time or vastly stocked markets.
The other game is taking a more minimal approach to gear. We're starting at level 11 and are being given a basic +3 weapon and armour of choice, along with a level 12 item and a paltry sum of gold (1200), which if I'm not mistaken actually puts us a little behind the curve, though I have faith in the DM to balance the encounters and the drops to match what we will find to what we need, and he's granted us more points for character creation than the usual 22.
Edit: as a related aside, I agree that "magic items aren't very magical anymore", but also believe that mechanically it's a fine way to go. And inherant bonuses are also awesome if that's a route you want to take. But aside from the shitty/low number of Rares out there, there has been another alternative in the game from the start... artifacts. Also of limited availability, number and viability depending on the group's class/race/alignment makeup, but they're there.
But does anybody use them?
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
My games always end up really light on magical items because I a) don't want to deal with them and b) like to have the ones I do give out feel special. This is why absolutely every 4E game I run from here on out will use the Dark Sun version of inherent bonuses.
Not to jump on you, as this is clearly a style of game your players enjoy, but this would probably drive me kind of batty. The DM having full control over item distribution and the group shying away from wishlisting makes me wonder how you determine what shows up at all? I can only assume/hope it's not purely random, so it comes down to what you choose to give the party, which in turn potentially becomes a very direct "you will find _____ because I said so, and that is based on what I think your characters want/need, which may or may not be different from what you think they want/need", and while that does have sort of an "Ironman Diablo 2: use what you find and only what you find" allure to it, given the weeks or months or years that might be spent with a character or class, having some input into what gear is found seems fairly reasonable and fitting to me given the changes that 4th Edition has made to the system.
Now, again, your group is cool with that, and that's badass. It's just not for me personally, and while I recognize the Powergamer within me, it's not even about "omg, I must have this item, as with it I can complete my 'build' and break the system and do like ten gajillion damage and have an AC approaching infinity!", but more a matter of "man, I browsed through the adventurer's vault for like 2 hours and there's some cool shit in there, and I'd love to find/have/use _____".
No, it isn't random. I mostly just just try to go for things I think the players will find cool or useful and I'll probably get it wrong a few times (I'm only human) but they're not going to lynch me for it or anything.
If a player sent me an e-mail today saying 'I just flipped through AV2 and I really like X weapon, I think it would be pretty fun to use' I'd certainly try to work with it and find an interesting way to integrate it into the story, probably by initiating a dialogue with the player about how best to do that in a way that excites them. I'm not some evil dictator lording over my game, handing out inconvenient and terrible treasure to spite my players. I want them to have fun and I want them to invest in the game world. But they have to invest in the game world, not just the mechanics.
All approaches are fine if that's what works for you. Personally I'm with Lezta. Powers and feats are for player based customisation whereas items (chosen wisely by the DM) are for that random 'oh cool' factor.
It probably helps that the few times I've run real life games my players are far from min/maxers and just want to enjoy the game, often having me guide them through character creation rather than going of and researching the best things on their own. When faced with a page of feat choices they just look blank and ask me what's good. Adding items as another source of overwhelming choice paralysis on top of powers and feats is not something they desire! They are pretty much the people Essentials was built for. They just want to play a game, not prepare with homework between sessions. Alas Essentials came too late and the game has long since petered out.
If gametable ever comes out and is userfriendly we may one day kick off again online. They are again the shining example of why Maptools is great for some but not all as they aren't going to put time into learning how to create and use macros! Call them D&D 'casuals' if you will.
I never ever want to have to pick out a player's magical items again. That's one of the things I learned in 4e. I have 10 players in two week-alternating games. I have enough to do.
It's Thursday, which means time for another Encounters report:
The DM was going to be late, so we started off the evening with three of the players enjoying a game of Munchkin and me browsing the shop and eventually buying Famine in Far-Go, Fluxx, and a Gamma World booster pack (I know they're overpriced but I felt like trying one). These purchases came about because I've made the decision to start buying stuff at the game store even though it's more expensive than buying it through Amazon, because I imagine that it's quite hard to keep a store like that running and I need them to remain open so that I can play, so I feel that I should support them with my money.
Anyway, eventually the DM arrived and we got to playing. We all got very interested in the pools of murky water, which we were all convinced had lizardmen hiding in them. While the two Thieves hid in the trees, the paladin and one of the mages went to investigate. We didn't find any lizardmen, but it turns out it was a trap, as two lizardmen sprung out of the stream behind us, and some minions popped out of the trees. A few rounds in we found out it was a double trap, because there actually were lizardmen in the pools, we just didn't detect them.
During combat my Thief continued to be a merciless death-dealer with constant combat advantage and ridiculous mobility. The other thief made good use of his Garrote Training to keep one of the ranged lizardmen locked down, then promptly killed him next round. One of the three mages died by I think the fourth round, the other two did a good job of cleaning up the minions, and then we made pretty short work of the rest of the lizardmen. After the battle Bahamut raised the dead mage after making him promise to fight Orcus whenever he could, we handed over the necklace, and that was that. Fun session overall.
We ended early, so four of us decided to close out the night with another game of Munchkin. We didn't have time to finish, but I ended up tied for first place at level 5. For anyone who remembers old school D&D and likes to poke fun at their nostalgia, this is a very amusing game.
And although not related to Encounters or D&D at all, I then went home and played Fluxx with my wife after putting the baby to bed. It was our first time, she won with a very strategic (and lucky) play of an Action card and a Goal card, and we both decided that the game is very fun and we should play again.
Edit: as a related aside, I agree that "magic items aren't very magical anymore", but also believe that mechanically it's a fine way to go. And inherant bonuses are also awesome if that's a route you want to take. But aside from the shitty/low number of Rares out there, there has been another alternative in the game from the start... artifacts. Also of limited availability, number and viability depending on the group's class/race/alignment makeup, but they're there.
But does anybody use them?
My DM has handed out a few artifacts, mostly to my brother. Except we keep forgetting what they do, because they're custom artifacts that don't appear on his character sheets that we reprint every time he levels up, so we constantly forget their special abilities.
They also require a fair amount of RP from the DM if played straight, with their concordance and stuff. Odd RP too, being a talking item and such. Multiplied however many times if you want to give every player an artifact.
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TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
I'm on the edge of just declaring all generic +1-5 items as being made of superior materials and revoking their status as 'magical' and keeping magical treasures within the realm of wonderous items that have odd utility powers tied to them
But seriously, are these magic items really any better than BRACERS OF AC X from editions past?
This is why I really like Inherent Bonuses. They take care of the math so that you can focus on more interesting magical items. Neither of my games use them, but I'll be switching to them as the default for any new games.
This is why I really like Inherent Bonuses. They take care of the math so that you can focus on more interesting magical items. Neither of my games use them, but I'll be switching to them as the default for any new games.
I've used Inherent Bonuses for a while now, and I really like them. I usually also give an Expertise feat for free around level 5 to balance out some other math issues and to cut out some feat tax issues. These sort of make magic items more magical when you find them, allowing the players to focus more on the interesting powers and effects they have rather than the all-important +2 to attack rolls.
Inherent bonuses really seem to open up the game to "cool" treasure and treatments of gear ("I don't need a magical sword to make me special" sorts of things).
The only downside is that it really screws the Brawler Fighter out of their major build bonus, but I'm probably the only person who really cares about that.
Edit: as a related aside, I agree that "magic items aren't very magical anymore", but also believe that mechanically it's a fine way to go. And inherant bonuses are also awesome if that's a route you want to take. But aside from the shitty/low number of Rares out there, there has been another alternative in the game from the start... artifacts. Also of limited availability, number and viability depending on the group's class/race/alignment makeup, but they're there.
But does anybody use them?
My DM has handed out a few artifacts, mostly to my brother. Except we keep forgetting what they do, because they're custom artifacts that don't appear on his character sheets that we reprint every time he levels up, so we constantly forget their special abilities.
They also require a fair amount of RP from the DM if played straight, with their concordance and stuff. Odd RP too, being a talking item and such. Multiplied however many times if you want to give every player an artifact.
There is a single artifact in the campaign I play in, and my character has it. It's a huge polearm with Halberd stats (though it looks more like a triple-bladed glaive), is intelligent, has an agenda that's been sliiiightly warped by time, and can be used as an implement by any class that can use a rod, staff or wand.
Currently, it has a melee-based teleportation attack that allows me to follow up after the teleport, which also prones the enemy, gives me darkvision, has a taste for adrenaline, and pushes me at any opportunity to 'do the right thing', which means do what it wants me to do, which is to preserve the realms in the setting, which is kind of a big deal, and harder than you might initially think.
It's fun.
Kay on
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dresdenphileWatch out for snakes!Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
I'm running Dark Sun, and we're using Inherent Bonuses. You're supposed to give 2 less magic items, which is fine, but what the hell am I supposed to do about money? Since magic and metal items are rare, all my players want to buy are survival days or haggle with prospective employers about paying for their survival days.
All of the "alternative" rewards seem a bit too high level for my players, but I don't want to just give them all metal weapons and call it a day (I enjoy the Weapon Breakage rule a little bit).
I'm running Dark Sun, and we're using Inherent Bonuses. You're supposed to give 2 less magic items, which is fine, but what the hell am I supposed to do about money? Since magic and metal items are rare, all my players want to buy are survival days or haggle with prospective employers about paying for their survival days.
All of the "alternative" rewards seem a bit too high level for my players, but I don't want to just give them all metal weapons and call it a day (I enjoy the Weapon Breakage rule a little bit).
Just don't give them things. Or money.
It's Dark Sun, they're supposed to die poor and dirty.
I'm running Dark Sun, and we're using Inherent Bonuses. You're supposed to give 2 less magic items, which is fine, but what the hell am I supposed to do about money? Since magic and metal items are rare, all my players want to buy are survival days or haggle with prospective employers about paying for their survival days.
All of the "alternative" rewards seem a bit too high level for my players, but I don't want to just give them all metal weapons and call it a day (I enjoy the Weapon Breakage rule a little bit).
Give them a single skin of clean water. Then they should thank their employer for being so generous.
I'm running Dark Sun, and we're using Inherent Bonuses. You're supposed to give 2 less magic items, which is fine, but what the hell am I supposed to do about money? Since magic and metal items are rare, all my players want to buy are survival days or haggle with prospective employers about paying for their survival days.
All of the "alternative" rewards seem a bit too high level for my players, but I don't want to just give them all metal weapons and call it a day (I enjoy the Weapon Breakage rule a little bit).
There's always consumables. Start replacing good chunks of the drops with alchemical items, reagents, ritual components, potion fruits, etc. You get to give your players neat stuff without it being a permanent boost and encourages using things your might otherwise pass over in favor of a magic item or more cash with which to buy magic items.
Not to jump on you, as this is clearly a style of game your players enjoy, but this would probably drive me kind of batty. The DM having full control over item distribution and the group shying away from wishlisting makes me wonder how you determine what shows up at all? I can only assume/hope it's not purely random, so it comes down to what you choose to give the party, which in turn potentially becomes a very direct "you will find _____ because I said so, and that is based on what I think your characters want/need, which may or may not be different from what you think they want/need", and while that does have sort of an "Ironman Diablo 2: use what you find and only what you find" allure to it, given the weeks or months or years that might be spent with a character or class, having some input into what gear is found seems fairly reasonable and fitting to me given the changes that 4th Edition has made to the system.
Now, again, your group is cool with that, and that's badass. It's just not for me personally, and while I recognize the Powergamer within me, it's not even about "omg, I must have this item, as with it I can complete my 'build' and break the system and do like ten gajillion damage and have an AC approaching infinity!", but more a matter of "man, I browsed through the adventurer's vault for like 2 hours and there's some cool shit in there, and I'd love to find/have/use _____".
No, it isn't random. I mostly just just try to go for things I think the players will find cool or useful and I'll probably get it wrong a few times (I'm only human) but they're not going to lynch me for it or anything.
My problem with that is that 90% of the relevant magic items already have little going for them aside from the +1/2/etc bonuses. I had to invest a chunk of time to find relevant magic items whose 'magic' bonuses I actually found useful and even then I use maybe one or two per multi-encounter session. I think most of our party never uses their magical items except for their bonuses, ever.
If magic items were magic in that they were HOLY SHIT WOW then yeah, I can see your point, but as is players are just choosing gear with, for the most part, very situational use.
Well, removing the stupidness where the daily item power usages were limited by a global daily power counter makes a lot of them more attractive.
Yea--a lot of powers are useful/not terrible when you can use them in addition to your other powers. For instance, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength (+5 damage once per day) and Sacrificial Weapon (weak enemy once per day). Both powers are useful, if situational, but before I only ever used the Ogre Strength. Now I have no problem using both.
streever on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Amazon managed to get me my copy of Gamma World really zippy (less than 2 weeks!). That's some classy service for the cheapest shipping method :O. Well done Amazon! Now my friend cannot lord it over me and Famine in Far-Go arrives next week. Perfect timing or BESTEST timing?
Amazon managed to get me my copy of Gamma World really zippy (less than 2 weeks!). That's some classy service for the cheapest shipping method :O. Well done Amazon! Now my friend cannot lord it over me and Famine in Far-Go arrives next week. Perfect timing or BESTEST timing?
Wow Aegeri, I get my Super Saver shipping packages from Amazon in 2 days usually. Combined with the usually very reduced prices and relative driving distance to stores with a good stock of DnD books and you see why I have a difficult time buying a book from a brick and mortar store.
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Yeah multiple monsters of the same type are bad news
Sounds like you got bad luck.
The game is very tightly balanced - I think my group has a win rate of about 1 game in 3, but they all come down to the wire.
Get the wrong encounter at the wrong time and it can be devastating, but conversely the same encounter under different circumstances it does nothing!
So they came up with their grand new system, presented it to the world, and then gave people no tools to work with it at all? A quick google has found a forum post claiming there is one single published heroic rare. Really?
I personally love the idea of the new system as I always felt that the old system gave the PCs too much control over their magic gear leading to optimised builds over the joy of discovery, but without large lists of items to slot into the new system it rather falls apart. Yes I could come up with my own, but I'm a time hampered DM who runs pre-published modules and wants things to just work straight out of the book please. Is that too much to ask?
I think it is much less the "shopping for the best" issue so much as there are some abilities that you can not get anything like without resorting to a magic items. They do things that nothing else does. Saying that should be firmly outside of player control.....kinda sucks. It would be akin to requiring you to roll randomly for feats.
Oh, and I totally agree it was pants on head stupid to totally revamp the magic rules then not really publish those rules for the following six months. Nevermind that the rares are fucking horrible in some cases. Do you really want your "Character defining item" to be a +2 to melee damage?
Yes, apparently. I'm in the same boat, I didn't like the way magic items were handled in core 4e and this is the only change in Essentials I'm really excited about. Only there's no support, at all, and the one book that might support it (which is coming out far, far too late) may have been canned. Nice.
As a DM, I felt 4E core gave players far too much control. If a player said to me they wanted an item because it would be good for their build, I'd give them a funny look and say 'no'. If they said to me 'I want this item because the flavour for it is really cool' I'd say yes. That still holds true, and if it was a rare item (or possibly even an uncommon) I'd make them go on a quest to get it or the reagents required to enchant.
The way I see it, player's control their characters. They can control what options they take (powers, feats etc) because that's the part of the game they can mechanically influence. The DM, however, controls the world. Items are a part of the world, so they get given out at his say-so. That's not to say I'd never let a player buy an item, but it would have to fit with the story and be justified to me in a way that wasn't to do with 'wanting a cool power'.
I'm aware though my DMing style is somewhat old-fashioned though. I blame 2E. We, as a group, didn't really like 3E and played 2E until only a year or so ago.
Thoughts of a Part-Time Hobbyist - A Wargaming and RPG Blog
This is cool like once a campaign. Doing it every time somebody finds a magic item they'd like just turns you into heroic grocery shoppers.
So, viewing it through your simulationist lens, why the fuck is a guy with a sword just as powerful as somebody capable of wielding magic? Oh, clearly starting out, swordguy should be more capable but once the magic guy really gets the hang of things.....
Yeah, fuck no. At some points you need to step back and ask "Does this make the game fun/good/exciting/what I and players want?"
The only reason you think you should control the character options we label magic items is because you've conceptualized them as physical items. There really isn't any reason for that. So long as we slot certain abilities only into this one, uncontrollable, upgrade path then we're going to have people fighting it.
Backing away from my own clearly gamist lens the thing that is clearly missing from the magic items is the magic. They are 90% mechanical upgrades that let you do some fucking addition. I know basic math is always a source of wonderment to me and my friends.
At this point I'd almost want to axe magic "items" in general, replace the majority of those mechanical bits with just handwaving math and let the magic items that exist be magical. Which the rare items kinda sorta do but they do it in what is becoming the trademark Wizards fashion*.
* Late, inept and lacking in effort.
edit: the old magic item system was fine. while wish lists are dumb, it's not bad to offer your players a magic item they would like to flesh out their character build once in awhile. thank god my players aren't optimizers.
either way, I am still going to use the old magic item system. I don't need official rules to tell me how to dole out magic items.
You're right, we should acknowledge that this is a game but even so, I think you can take it too far the other way. I'd say that WotC conceptualised them as physical items, not me. If we go so far towards things as just looking at them purely as mechanics, for me all the fun of imagining starts to bleed away and all I have left is numbers. Different people enjoy different aspects of the game. I like the numbers ticking away in the background, making things work (because 4E represents for me the perfect game, it just *works*, it's hard to make a bad character mechanically and as a DM I don't have to play with maths beyond 'do these monsters equal or come close to certain XP budget? yes/no?' and 'have I given out x amount of treasure?') whilst I try to create an exciting, believable playground for the players to lose themselves in.
I wouldn't begrudge a player for liking to play around with the numbers, but magic items are one thing that, as a DM, I feel should be something I have control of; they're part of the playground. I've yet to find a player who didn't understand that and if one did appear at my table, I'd deal with it at the time and maybe compromise with a wish-list or something. (Incedently, my group unanimously voted against using wish-lists).
I absolutely agree with this. Magic items, by being something required mechanically, have become bland and not special or magical at all. Rare items could be the solution but, as you say, WotC have made no effort at all on that count.
Thoughts of a Part-Time Hobbyist - A Wargaming and RPG Blog
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Not to jump on you, as this is clearly a style of game your players enjoy, but this would probably drive me kind of batty. The DM having full control over item distribution and the group shying away from wishlisting makes me wonder how you determine what shows up at all? I can only assume/hope it's not purely random, so it comes down to what you choose to give the party, which in turn potentially becomes a very direct "you will find _____ because I said so, and that is based on what I think your characters want/need, which may or may not be different from what you think they want/need", and while that does have sort of an "Ironman Diablo 2: use what you find and only what you find" allure to it, given the weeks or months or years that might be spent with a character or class, having some input into what gear is found seems fairly reasonable and fitting to me given the changes that 4th Edition has made to the system.
Now, again, your group is cool with that, and that's badass. It's just not for me personally, and while I recognize the Powergamer within me, it's not even about "omg, I must have this item, as with it I can complete my 'build' and break the system and do like ten gajillion damage and have an AC approaching infinity!", but more a matter of "man, I browsed through the adventurer's vault for like 2 hours and there's some cool shit in there, and I'd love to find/have/use _____".
However, I do agree that wishlists aren't terribly optimal either at times. They can essentially become required reading for the whole group (the players to find stuff and the DM to then read up on that stuff to vet whether it fits or not into the campaign/setting). Perhaps I'm just too accustomed to players having lot of (if not too much) say in what they're carrying, from our days of Rifts forward. (subject to DM discretion, of course)
Of the two games I'm in (one ongoing from level 1 to 14 over the last year and change of irregular play, another starting up in a week or two), one has been fairly lenient with the gear distribution. Essentially, between modules the characters are given a chance to sell all the excess loot and whatever gear they don't need anymore (at 50% market value) and buy items they want to upgrade to or try out. While this likely sounds insane to some people, do keep in mind that since the DM is using only barely altered gear drops as per the modules, a lot of it is useless, and having gone at the usual 20% sale value we'd probably have actively fallen behind on the gear curve ages ago. Then, other than what we find we don't really bother with buying gear during the campaigns, especially since they are often low on excess time or vastly stocked markets.
The other game is taking a more minimal approach to gear. We're starting at level 11 and are being given a basic +3 weapon and armour of choice, along with a level 12 item and a paltry sum of gold (1200), which if I'm not mistaken actually puts us a little behind the curve, though I have faith in the DM to balance the encounters and the drops to match what we will find to what we need, and he's granted us more points for character creation than the usual 22.
Edit: as a related aside, I agree that "magic items aren't very magical anymore", but also believe that mechanically it's a fine way to go. And inherant bonuses are also awesome if that's a route you want to take. But aside from the shitty/low number of Rares out there, there has been another alternative in the game from the start... artifacts. Also of limited availability, number and viability depending on the group's class/race/alignment makeup, but they're there.
But does anybody use them?
Dark Sun supremacy
No, it isn't random.
If a player sent me an e-mail today saying 'I just flipped through AV2 and I really like X weapon, I think it would be pretty fun to use' I'd certainly try to work with it and find an interesting way to integrate it into the story, probably by initiating a dialogue with the player about how best to do that in a way that excites them. I'm not some evil dictator lording over my game, handing out inconvenient and terrible treasure to spite my players. I want them to have fun and I want them to invest in the game world. But they have to invest in the game world, not just the mechanics.
Thoughts of a Part-Time Hobbyist - A Wargaming and RPG Blog
It probably helps that the few times I've run real life games my players are far from min/maxers and just want to enjoy the game, often having me guide them through character creation rather than going of and researching the best things on their own. When faced with a page of feat choices they just look blank and ask me what's good. Adding items as another source of overwhelming choice paralysis on top of powers and feats is not something they desire! They are pretty much the people Essentials was built for. They just want to play a game, not prepare with homework between sessions. Alas Essentials came too late and the game has long since petered out.
If gametable ever comes out and is userfriendly we may one day kick off again online. They are again the shining example of why Maptools is great for some but not all as they aren't going to put time into learning how to create and use macros! Call them D&D 'casuals' if you will.
The DM was going to be late, so we started off the evening with three of the players enjoying a game of Munchkin and me browsing the shop and eventually buying Famine in Far-Go, Fluxx, and a Gamma World booster pack (I know they're overpriced but I felt like trying one). These purchases came about because I've made the decision to start buying stuff at the game store even though it's more expensive than buying it through Amazon, because I imagine that it's quite hard to keep a store like that running and I need them to remain open so that I can play, so I feel that I should support them with my money.
Anyway, eventually the DM arrived and we got to playing. We all got very interested in the pools of murky water, which we were all convinced had lizardmen hiding in them. While the two Thieves hid in the trees, the paladin and one of the mages went to investigate. We didn't find any lizardmen, but it turns out it was a trap, as two lizardmen sprung out of the stream behind us, and some minions popped out of the trees. A few rounds in we found out it was a double trap, because there actually were lizardmen in the pools, we just didn't detect them.
During combat my Thief continued to be a merciless death-dealer with constant combat advantage and ridiculous mobility. The other thief made good use of his Garrote Training to keep one of the ranged lizardmen locked down, then promptly killed him next round. One of the three mages died by I think the fourth round, the other two did a good job of cleaning up the minions, and then we made pretty short work of the rest of the lizardmen. After the battle Bahamut raised the dead mage after making him promise to fight Orcus whenever he could, we handed over the necklace, and that was that. Fun session overall.
We ended early, so four of us decided to close out the night with another game of Munchkin. We didn't have time to finish, but I ended up tied for first place at level 5. For anyone who remembers old school D&D and likes to poke fun at their nostalgia, this is a very amusing game.
And although not related to Encounters or D&D at all, I then went home and played Fluxx with my wife after putting the baby to bed. It was our first time, she won with a very strategic (and lucky) play of an Action card and a Goal card, and we both decided that the game is very fun and we should play again.
"More Good Cards"
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Being a terrible game doesn't stop it from being a fun one.
Then again, I like Rifts and I'm itching to play 2E AD&D again.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
My DM has handed out a few artifacts, mostly to my brother. Except we keep forgetting what they do, because they're custom artifacts that don't appear on his character sheets that we reprint every time he levels up, so we constantly forget their special abilities.
They also require a fair amount of RP from the DM if played straight, with their concordance and stuff. Odd RP too, being a talking item and such. Multiplied however many times if you want to give every player an artifact.
But seriously, are these magic items really any better than BRACERS OF AC X from editions past?
I've used Inherent Bonuses for a while now, and I really like them. I usually also give an Expertise feat for free around level 5 to balance out some other math issues and to cut out some feat tax issues. These sort of make magic items more magical when you find them, allowing the players to focus more on the interesting powers and effects they have rather than the all-important +2 to attack rolls.
The only downside is that it really screws the Brawler Fighter out of their major build bonus, but I'm probably the only person who really cares about that.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
There is a single artifact in the campaign I play in, and my character has it. It's a huge polearm with Halberd stats (though it looks more like a triple-bladed glaive), is intelligent, has an agenda that's been sliiiightly warped by time, and can be used as an implement by any class that can use a rod, staff or wand.
Currently, it has a melee-based teleportation attack that allows me to follow up after the teleport, which also prones the enemy, gives me darkvision, has a taste for adrenaline, and pushes me at any opportunity to 'do the right thing', which means do what it wants me to do, which is to preserve the realms in the setting, which is kind of a big deal, and harder than you might initially think.
It's fun.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
All of the "alternative" rewards seem a bit too high level for my players, but I don't want to just give them all metal weapons and call it a day (I enjoy the Weapon Breakage rule a little bit).
It's Dark Sun, they're supposed to die poor and dirty.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Give them a single skin of clean water. Then they should thank their employer for being so generous.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
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There's always consumables. Start replacing good chunks of the drops with alchemical items, reagents, ritual components, potion fruits, etc. You get to give your players neat stuff without it being a permanent boost and encourages using things your might otherwise pass over in favor of a magic item or more cash with which to buy magic items.
nice one dude and/or guy
"Here, have this 18 year old halfling female. You can break her in half with your wang. Go ahead. You know you want to."
If magic items were magic in that they were HOLY SHIT WOW then yeah, I can see your point, but as is players are just choosing gear with, for the most part, very situational use.
Yea--a lot of powers are useful/not terrible when you can use them in addition to your other powers. For instance, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength (+5 damage once per day) and Sacrificial Weapon (weak enemy once per day). Both powers are useful, if situational, but before I only ever used the Ogre Strength. Now I have no problem using both.
! :^::^: