The internet at my brother's house in Cali sucks, so I've been playing some single player, I rushed through on 'Normal' the first time as I just wanted to get a feel for the game before jumping online. It's really fun playing Brutal! Although I just spent two hours bashing my head against a brick wall on the Great Train Robbery before I realised you don't have to tell Diamondbacks to attack, you can just run them alongside the trains and they attack by themselves.
Then I realised you can probably do the same thing with Phoenixes and that is probably what makes them awesome.
July is an absolute baller, can he actually participate in the 'real GSL' or w/e (I have no idea how all this code S/A stuff works, just waiting for Round-of-X games to begin)?
Kind of also wish there were some solid, non-cheesy Terrans to cheer for as well. Well, I guess there is Boxer and Nada, but I dunno, they seem far and few in-between.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The internet at my brother's house in Cali sucks, so I've been playing some single player, I rushed through on 'Normal' the first time as I just wanted to get a feel for the game before jumping online. It's really fun playing Brutal! Although I just spent two hours bashing my head against a brick wall on the Great Train Robbery before I realised you don't have to tell Diamondbacks to attack, you can just run them alongside the trains and they attack by themselves.
Then I realised you can probably do the same thing with Phoenixes and that is probably what makes them awesome.
July is an absolute baller, can he actually participate in the 'real GSL' or w/e (I have no idea how all this code S/A stuff works, just waiting for Round-of-X games to begin)?
He's into the Ro16 now (I think that's in BoX format). Top 8 get a chance to play alongside the bottom 16 of Code S in the up&down matches.
I haven't really followed how the foreigners are doing. I know Jinro and IdrA are in code S but will Ret and the other Swede that I can't remember the name of be playing in A?
I have a random question, do you all know how I could set up the GOM player to automatically start when the stream goes live? My ISP is being super finicky lately, and I have the player up, but when the stream interrupts, it's super annoying. I'd love for it to be able to auto-reconnect, especially if there's a thirty minute break or something.
I haven't really followed how the foreigners are doing. I know Jinro and IdrA are in code S but will Ret and the other Swede that I can't remember the name of be playing in A?
Ed: HayPro is the name.
Ed 2: Holy heck. MC vs NaDa? Color me excited.
Ret already played and
lost, so he'll have to go through the Code A preliminaries to remain in Code A
. HayprO never earned enough points to make Code A, but he can still get into Code A next tournament via the preliminaries or by being seeded (4 foreigners are automatically seeded, TBA).
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
So, question:
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Opinions?
It's not really a build order as much as a strat in my opinion because it always yields the same units, sort of. It's also pretty hard to transition out of. Try using it without relying on it, if you see what I mean. Can't explain it better.
I rode the 5RR into diamond and it was hard as crap the first few weeks when I decided to stop relying on it.
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Opinions?
Use it in any game where you want to win.
I can't really describe it better than that, obviously all games you want to win but you know sometimes you're in the mood for a long fun macro game and sometimes you just want to win collect your points and go. I feel this way whenever I play against Random players. I can't be fucked dealing with whatever stupid thing they're going to throw at me, because the only Random players I've ever played against all, without fail, did some 1base bullshit, Terran = cloaked banshees, Protoss, DTs or void rays, and Zerg went 5 or 7RR. And anytime I force them into a macro game, they lose because they spend all their time learning three different races and not enough time learning the nuances of each one. Essentially, if you can force a Random player into the mid and late game, they will only be as third as good as you, assuming equal skill and experience, because they've spent a third of the time with that race as you have.
So basically I just use this build against all random players. For now, I also use it in every PvT and will do until the next patch because it thrashes the Thor+SCV build which is only successful because of the way repairing AI works, which will be changed.
EDIT: I know some people do Random well, Drag is one of them. But most Random players, in my experience, play random because they want to have their opponent go into a game wondering what 1base shit they're going to try, and then when they get forced into a macro game they can't keep up.
Actually, I don't think the reason I got into diamond with it was that the five roach rush is particularly good. It's a well designed build with some good timings, but it's not fantastic.
The reason I did so well with it was that it was the first build I got really GOOD at. I got all the timings down perfectly and knew how to respond to variations from my enemies.
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
I am currently trying to come up with some transitions for the Dhalgate (The Dhalgate scandal!).
I feel that it's just really great at totally containing your opponent. You either outright win or you have an army advantage early on and can pressure him and catch up with economy. I mean, really, I'm protoss, I can just chronoboost some probes. So since I have the build totally ingrained now (I can click the buttons from memory, haha) I'll work on coming up with transitions.
The EU lobby bros saw me execute it yesterday, that looked pretty flawless, right?
(I know it can't be "flawless" but lack of better word)
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Opinions?
I think there is inherent danger in riding any build to success, there is also a great sense of, almost pretentiousness, in the wider community about how success is earned that I dont agree with. Heres the bare knuckles of it, what is your aim? Is it to get as high as possible? If so then you can do it, you can find a very strong build, do it every game and, once you gain a good understanding of its pitfalls and successes become a very powerful proponent of that build. But I would be amiss to say that that person is an accomplished sc2 player, in my mind the best players, the players who earn the most respect do it by being those players that can react and understand something they havent seen before, whose mechanics and speed of thought allow them to react to situations, react to builds and work themselves out of troubles. You get this game sense by playing the game, by putting yourself in situations you havent been in, by being a student of many styles of play and by ultimately never getting too comfortable with something. There is a huge reason why after a few Terran nerfs there was a huge dropoff in some of the bigger Terrans of the time, because they found success with a build and they relied on it to the death, because they could macro, but only macro within guidelines, guidelines which get complicated by multiple factors the further into the game you get.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Actually, I don't think the reason I got into diamond with it was that the five roach rush is particularly good. It's a well designed build with some good timings, but it's not fantastic.
The reason I did so well with it was that it was the first build I got really GOOD at. I got all the timings down perfectly and knew how to respond to variations from my enemies.
Because well-designed builds with well-planned timings generally beat builds that are not well-designed with timings, whenever talking about below Diamond league. The reason the 5stalker 4gate works so well is precisley because its so well timed, everything is planned out, every last probe and unit is squeezed out and you know exactly what you're doing
and Klyka.
a contain will not work with this build. The only time a contain is good is if you're a) Terran with tanks or b) ahead economically.
Against a tank contain, breaking out of it costs a lot more resources then the person doing the contain will lose when you break it.
and against b) obviously the strengths of containing someone when you're ahead in economy are obvious.
but against nearly any build, the 5stalker 4gate will be be behind in economy, so if you just walk up to their base and set up a contain, you're basically going to lose eventually because they'll just bust out. You need to do some damage. By all means set up a contain after you've equalized the economy situation, but you need to at least even out the worker count or kill a few buildings like barracks.
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Well, my problem so far is that I have an ok game sense, but I still need to get much better at the fundamentals. Like, yesterday for example, even if I was sick and my head hurt like hell, I still totally fucked up against Frozenzen, it was really embarassing. I need to work on my macro and I need to work on my overall game handling. I feel I still need AT LEAST 50-100 games played before I can say "ok I can now safely look at my opponents base and react without letting my money climb up to 300".
Well, my problem so far is that I have an ok game sense, but I still need to get much better at the fundamentals. Like, yesterday for example, even if I was sick and my head hurt like hell, I still totally fucked up against Frozenzen, it was really embarassing. I need to work on my macro and I need to work on my overall game handling. I feel I still need AT LEAST 50-100 games played before I can say "ok I can now safely look at my opponents base and react without letting my money climb up to 300".
Hmmm, ok Dhal, sounds right to me.
Well the overriding issue is this, do you think its better to learn game sense in silver/gold or game sense in diamond? Say you learn the perfect 4 gate and it wins you every game, you learn everything that can and cannot beat the 4 gate but decide when you are in diamond that you want to try something new. You then see that your entire perview of sc2 has revolved around this one build and you are simply not prepared to handle other builds because you have been so focused on a very narrow set of rules and circumstances. This problem is extended by the fact that the 4 gate requires no scouting, it is an aggressive build, its a reason why people tell bronze players to sit back and try the macro game, because aggression does not give you a wider game sense, it doesnt teach you to judge, to determine, to react. Thats why it is so valuable to take the early games, take the bronze/silver and gold leagues to really learn the game, to experiment, to make sure you have a solid foundation behind you.
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Ok thanks Frack!
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
Dude I cannon rush, ive 4 gated and ive proxy 2 gated before , there is 0 shame in doing a build and i wouldnt listen to anybody who said otherwise (other than terrans who bring all their scvs :evil:). Its all about objectives though, I have no opinion of someone who wants to 4 gate every game or cannon rush every game, their game, their fun, good on them. I just think its like teaching someone one guitar song and them being convinced they can play the guitar, technically they can play a bit, but would you call them a guitarist? I know that probably sounds stupidly pretentions but I do kind of believe sc2 is a skill with fundamentals AND a metagame that shifts, which keeps it exciting.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
Basically once you learn it its something thats in your toolkit for future use. Which is, after all, what we're about!
Improving your toolkit.
In a starcraft 2 player's toolkit you need good fundamental macro skills, you need good game sense, good reactions to cheese, a few planned out openings, and you also need specific planned out early pressure builds for times when you think your opponent is someone who you don't want to let get into the midgame.
For example, if I was playing against Drag, or Simon, or someone, in a tournament, at least one of the games I would probably do a 4gate of some sort, just because I know they're much better than me and ending the game early is my best chance to take a game from them, before we get to a stage in the game where their skill advantage manifests more.
Basically, it all depends on what your aim is.
I have 2 aims for Starcraft 2.
In no particular order
- Improving my play. This includes learning builds for various situation, further perfecting my already-solid macro, and trying to learn more about the various matchups so that I can respond better ingame without having to over-think things.
- Improving my ladder ranking. This is mostly an e-peen thing, as it doesn't really get you anything, but I like showing off my accomplishments, who doesn't?
And a solid build with a good success rate is part of both of those goals, regardless of how "cheesy" people think it is.
Sure, executing the actual build itself does not directly improve your play, but everytime you use it, you get a bit better at it, as you face new enemy builds with it and it overcomes or falls to them, you file that info away for things to know about.
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Well, then I'll try to mix up my game!
Although I still have such a hard time to bring myself to trying cheese
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
Basically once you learn it its something thats in your toolkit for future use. Which is, after all, what we're about!
Improving your toolkit.
In a starcraft 2 player's toolkit you need good fundamental macro skills, you need good game sense, good reactions to cheese, a few planned out openings, and you also need specific planned out early pressure builds for times when you think your opponent is someone who you don't want to let get into the midgame.
For example, if I was playing against Drag, or Simon, or someone, in a tournament, at least one of the games I would probably do a 4gate of some sort, just because I know they're much better than me and ending the game early is my best chance to take a game from them, before we get to a stage in the game where their skill advantage manifests more.
If you need to learn some cheeses/all-ins for a specific match, it's much easier to do that before a tournament than learning the macro-game. Thus, why waste ladder time on all-ins/cheeses?
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
Basically once you learn it its something thats in your toolkit for future use. Which is, after all, what we're about!
Improving your toolkit.
In a starcraft 2 player's toolkit you need good fundamental macro skills, you need good game sense, good reactions to cheese, a few planned out openings, and you also need specific planned out early pressure builds for times when you think your opponent is someone who you don't want to let get into the midgame.
For example, if I was playing against Drag, or Simon, or someone, in a tournament, at least one of the games I would probably do a 4gate of some sort, just because I know they're much better than me and ending the game early is my best chance to take a game from them, before we get to a stage in the game where their skill advantage manifests more.
Oh of course, like i said never feel bad about using a build, i will use the build, and continue to use cheeses. The single thing i hate most about the sc2 community on tl.net is the arrogance that unless you are on 3 base its somehow not a victory.
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
Basically once you learn it its something thats in your toolkit for future use. Which is, after all, what we're about!
Improving your toolkit.
In a starcraft 2 player's toolkit you need good fundamental macro skills, you need good game sense, good reactions to cheese, a few planned out openings, and you also need specific planned out early pressure builds for times when you think your opponent is someone who you don't want to let get into the midgame.
For example, if I was playing against Drag, or Simon, or someone, in a tournament, at least one of the games I would probably do a 4gate of some sort, just because I know they're much better than me and ending the game early is my best chance to take a game from them, before we get to a stage in the game where their skill advantage manifests more.
If you need to learn some cheeses/all-ins for a specific match, it's much easier to do that before a tournament than learning the macro-game. Thus, why waste ladder time on all-ins/cheeses?
Because before a tournament is a bad time to be learning brand new things.
It takes more than running through the build 2-3 times in YABOT to learn it.
If i had to put a number on it, I'd say at least 20 real games of the build before I'd feel confident enough to use it in a tournament game.
Late-game Zerg is exhausting. I also need more goddamn gas.
Banelings, however, are the greatest unit ever invented.
edit: 132 real APM over a 26-real-minute game. For me, that is definitely a workout.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Also, 4gates are far from just a cheesy build that doesnt improve your game at all. Microing is a big part of 4gating once you get good at executing it, you can magnify the damage you do by microing well. Thats the very nature of the build. A-move the zealot. and then stutter-step your stalkers up the ramp and get close to their units.
So whenever you do it you get that little bit better at the micro.
Also klyka if you need some help knowing how to react to scouting id be happy to look at some replays and give some advice, i find my scouting is probably the better part of my game, my fumbling hands and terrible apm are my worst
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Oh wow
MC crushing NaDa's attack.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
They really should have tried some harassment, banshees or drops could have helped nada immensely, and it's not like he doesn't have the apm for it :P.
Posts
Then I realised you can probably do the same thing with Phoenixes and that is probably what makes them awesome.
Steam: adamjnet
Kind of also wish there were some solid, non-cheesy Terrans to cheer for as well. Well, I guess there is Boxer and Nada, but I dunno, they seem far and few in-between.
that is exactly what you do with phoenixes
Ed: HayPro is the name.
Ed 2: Holy heck. MC vs NaDa? Color me excited.
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Opinions?
It's not really a build order as much as a strat in my opinion because it always yields the same units, sort of. It's also pretty hard to transition out of. Try using it without relying on it, if you see what I mean. Can't explain it better.
I rode the 5RR into diamond and it was hard as crap the first few weeks when I decided to stop relying on it.
Ed. Haha, 5RR hi5 Per.
There are no wrong strategies in competing, there are wrong strategies in practicing.
Klyka: If you want to get to diamond fast (or climb points), use it, if you want to focus on getting good, don't.
Use it in any game where you want to win.
I can't really describe it better than that, obviously all games you want to win but you know sometimes you're in the mood for a long fun macro game and sometimes you just want to win collect your points and go. I feel this way whenever I play against Random players. I can't be fucked dealing with whatever stupid thing they're going to throw at me, because the only Random players I've ever played against all, without fail, did some 1base bullshit, Terran = cloaked banshees, Protoss, DTs or void rays, and Zerg went 5 or 7RR. And anytime I force them into a macro game, they lose because they spend all their time learning three different races and not enough time learning the nuances of each one. Essentially, if you can force a Random player into the mid and late game, they will only be as third as good as you, assuming equal skill and experience, because they've spent a third of the time with that race as you have.
So basically I just use this build against all random players. For now, I also use it in every PvT and will do until the next patch because it thrashes the Thor+SCV build which is only successful because of the way repairing AI works, which will be changed.
EDIT: I know some people do Random well, Drag is one of them. But most Random players, in my experience, play random because they want to have their opponent go into a game wondering what 1base shit they're going to try, and then when they get forced into a macro game they can't keep up.
The reason I did so well with it was that it was the first build I got really GOOD at. I got all the timings down perfectly and knew how to respond to variations from my enemies.
I feel that it's just really great at totally containing your opponent. You either outright win or you have an army advantage early on and can pressure him and catch up with economy. I mean, really, I'm protoss, I can just chronoboost some probes. So since I have the build totally ingrained now (I can click the buttons from memory, haha) I'll work on coming up with transitions.
The EU lobby bros saw me execute it yesterday, that looked pretty flawless, right?
(I know it can't be "flawless" but lack of better word)
I think there is inherent danger in riding any build to success, there is also a great sense of, almost pretentiousness, in the wider community about how success is earned that I dont agree with. Heres the bare knuckles of it, what is your aim? Is it to get as high as possible? If so then you can do it, you can find a very strong build, do it every game and, once you gain a good understanding of its pitfalls and successes become a very powerful proponent of that build. But I would be amiss to say that that person is an accomplished sc2 player, in my mind the best players, the players who earn the most respect do it by being those players that can react and understand something they havent seen before, whose mechanics and speed of thought allow them to react to situations, react to builds and work themselves out of troubles. You get this game sense by playing the game, by putting yourself in situations you havent been in, by being a student of many styles of play and by ultimately never getting too comfortable with something. There is a huge reason why after a few Terran nerfs there was a huge dropoff in some of the bigger Terrans of the time, because they found success with a build and they relied on it to the death, because they could macro, but only macro within guidelines, guidelines which get complicated by multiple factors the further into the game you get.
Because well-designed builds with well-planned timings generally beat builds that are not well-designed with timings, whenever talking about below Diamond league. The reason the 5stalker 4gate works so well is precisley because its so well timed, everything is planned out, every last probe and unit is squeezed out and you know exactly what you're doing
and Klyka.
a contain will not work with this build. The only time a contain is good is if you're a) Terran with tanks or b) ahead economically.
Against a tank contain, breaking out of it costs a lot more resources then the person doing the contain will lose when you break it.
and against b) obviously the strengths of containing someone when you're ahead in economy are obvious.
but against nearly any build, the 5stalker 4gate will be be behind in economy, so if you just walk up to their base and set up a contain, you're basically going to lose eventually because they'll just bust out. You need to do some damage. By all means set up a contain after you've equalized the economy situation, but you need to at least even out the worker count or kill a few buildings like barracks.
Hmmm, ok Dhal, sounds right to me.
Well the overriding issue is this, do you think its better to learn game sense in silver/gold or game sense in diamond? Say you learn the perfect 4 gate and it wins you every game, you learn everything that can and cannot beat the 4 gate but decide when you are in diamond that you want to try something new. You then see that your entire perview of sc2 has revolved around this one build and you are simply not prepared to handle other builds because you have been so focused on a very narrow set of rules and circumstances. This problem is extended by the fact that the 4 gate requires no scouting, it is an aggressive build, its a reason why people tell bronze players to sit back and try the macro game, because aggression does not give you a wider game sense, it doesnt teach you to judge, to determine, to react. Thats why it is so valuable to take the early games, take the bronze/silver and gold leagues to really learn the game, to experiment, to make sure you have a solid foundation behind you.
I'll just lean back, keep the 4gate in my repertoire but now focus on defensive macro gaming!
Doing the same build all the time would bore me to tears, but it's probably on of the reasons I have a hard time improving ;P.
Dude I cannon rush, ive 4 gated and ive proxy 2 gated before
Basically once you learn it its something thats in your toolkit for future use. Which is, after all, what we're about!
Improving your toolkit.
In a starcraft 2 player's toolkit you need good fundamental macro skills, you need good game sense, good reactions to cheese, a few planned out openings, and you also need specific planned out early pressure builds for times when you think your opponent is someone who you don't want to let get into the midgame.
For example, if I was playing against Drag, or Simon, or someone, in a tournament, at least one of the games I would probably do a 4gate of some sort, just because I know they're much better than me and ending the game early is my best chance to take a game from them, before we get to a stage in the game where their skill advantage manifests more.
Basically, it all depends on what your aim is.
I have 2 aims for Starcraft 2.
In no particular order
- Improving my play. This includes learning builds for various situation, further perfecting my already-solid macro, and trying to learn more about the various matchups so that I can respond better ingame without having to over-think things.
- Improving my ladder ranking. This is mostly an e-peen thing, as it doesn't really get you anything, but I like showing off my accomplishments, who doesn't?
And a solid build with a good success rate is part of both of those goals, regardless of how "cheesy" people think it is.
Sure, executing the actual build itself does not directly improve your play, but everytime you use it, you get a bit better at it, as you face new enemy builds with it and it overcomes or falls to them, you file that info away for things to know about.
Although I still have such a hard time to bring myself to trying cheese
If you need to learn some cheeses/all-ins for a specific match, it's much easier to do that before a tournament than learning the macro-game. Thus, why waste ladder time on all-ins/cheeses?
Oh of course, like i said never feel bad about using a build, i will use the build, and continue to use cheeses. The single thing i hate most about the sc2 community on tl.net is the arrogance that unless you are on 3 base its somehow not a victory.
Now MC vs Nada, hoping this is a good game. I will not be happy if it ain't.
Because before a tournament is a bad time to be learning brand new things.
It takes more than running through the build 2-3 times in YABOT to learn it.
If i had to put a number on it, I'd say at least 20 real games of the build before I'd feel confident enough to use it in a tournament game.
Banelings, however, are the greatest unit ever invented.
edit: 132 real APM over a 26-real-minute game. For me, that is definitely a workout.
So whenever you do it you get that little bit better at the micro.
MC crushing NaDa's attack.
They really should have tried some harassment, banshees or drops could have helped nada immensely, and it's not like he doesn't have the apm for it :P.
MC played it beautifully though.