Why is Nada playing Inca? Did they change the schedule for some reason?
see this is what happens when you don't watch, you don't know whats going on
the code s group matches are Bo1.
they play four matches, then a number of tiebreakers to determine who is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.
MC beat NaDa, going 1 win. Then Inca beat zenith, he goes 1-0. Inca then lost to nada, MC beat zenith, making Zenith 0 wins, MC 2 wins, so they're fourth and 1st, and Inca and NaDa both have 1 win each so they play a tiebreaker to get one more win for one of them to take 2nd place.
Well, I had to go grocery shopping. But that's why I have you wonderful gents to tell me what happened.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Well I mean have you watched any of the code s matches this week? They've all worked the same way
edit: haha john wandering into camera view there
edit2: ogsmc cool as fuck, relaxing back and leaning back there
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Opinions?
when you get higher ranked you'll encounter people who can defend it, forcing you to mid-game, making you learn to play better.
Do you guys think I should just keep using the "Dhal 4gate" on ladder?
I am a bit afraid that it won't really help me to get better at the game. Or is that notion wrong?
I know people like Idra say that a newb should just use one basic build order and hammer it into his skull until he can do it in his sleep but I fear that this kind of rush might be the wrong strat to use!
Opinions?
when you get higher ranked you'll encounter people who can defend it, forcing you to mid-game, making you learn to play better.
exactly what kind of higher rank are you talking about?
the specific build we're talking about has not lost me a game on ladder yet vs Protoss or Terran, at 2500 Diamond.
Meeks beat it with the marauder expand build, I don't know if that countered my build or if it countered me specifically, but that is so far the only time I personally have lost with it. I'm not sure about Klyka.
Yes, its counterable, but implying that it is automatically beatable by anyone higher rank is just dumb. Its an exceedingly powerful build, much more so than a standard 4gate, though you make more of an economic sacrifice than you do with a normal 4gate, meaning that you have to do some damage or you will be behind. Luckily, because it hits so early, its very easy, given correct execution, to do that damage if not win outright.
EDIT: let me just say I don't mean to come across as overly defensive here, although I know thats how it reads. I realise you're just making a point about single builds and how they will only take you so far. However, Klyka is more than experienced enough to be well aware of this.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Here is a replay of my last Zerg game at silver level on my SEA account.
This game felt really good. Its the first game where I've felt really like I'm starting to get a grasp on how Zerg works and how they interact with the other races.
I would therefore love if one of the good Zerg players here can take a look at it, rip me apart and tell me what I should be doing differently.
Please avoid mentioning the fact that I don't hotkey my queens. I know I don't. I don't feel I need to. Forgetting to larvae inject is a problem for me, but when I do remember (and its not THAT bad, my queens never hit 200 energy for example, at least), I find that manually moving to each hatch and selecting the queen manually to inject is plenty fast enough for now.
Here is a replay of my last Zerg game at silver level on my SEA account.
This game felt really good. Its the first game where I've felt really like I'm starting to get a grasp on how Zerg works and how they interact with the other races.
I would therefore love if one of the good Zerg players here can take a look at it, rip me apart and tell me what I should be doing differently.
Please avoid mentioning the fact that I don't hotkey my queens. I know I don't. I don't feel I need to. Forgetting to larvae inject is a problem for me, but when I do remember (and its not THAT bad, my queens never hit 200 energy for example, at least), I find that manually moving to each hatch and selecting the queen manually to inject is plenty fast enough for now.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Can we, as a thread, agree to stop using the phrase cheese to describe every single strategy that doesn't involve taking four expansions before the 3 minute mark?
I exaggerate, but it seems that "1base" has become synonymous with "all-in", which has become synonymous with "cheese".
Which just isn't true. I think we can all agree some strategies are a bit cheesy. Proxy void rays...proxy gateways...cannon rushes....6pools, proxy barracks...basically anything that automatically loses if scouted early, not only because its been scouted, but also because its too late to back out, you're committed
However, something like a 4gate that cuts a lot of probes, or a 4rax attack from 1 base, or a 1base roach attack, those aren't cheese. You may scout them and respond correctly, but they aren't cheese, you don't automatically win. First, you have to respond correctly and secondly your opponent can simply back out. He might be a little behind by having to swap to another plan, but he won't automatically lose or be WAY behind the way he is if a proxy fails or a cannon rush fails.
All of you guys need to stop and think about things a little before you call so many strategies cheese, or all-in, when in fact they are not even cheese, and some of them aren't even all-in! Being behind, economically or otherwise, if an attack fails does not necessarily make that attack all-in, only when you are unrecoverably far behind.
Here is a replay of my last Zerg game at silver level on my SEA account.
This game felt really good. Its the first game where I've felt really like I'm starting to get a grasp on how Zerg works and how they interact with the other races.
I would therefore love if one of the good Zerg players here can take a look at it, rip me apart and tell me what I should be doing differently.
Please avoid mentioning the fact that I don't hotkey my queens. I know I don't. I don't feel I need to. Forgetting to larvae inject is a problem for me, but when I do remember (and its not THAT bad, my queens never hit 200 energy for example, at least), I find that manually moving to each hatch and selecting the queen manually to inject is plenty fast enough for now.
I have so far lost against 2 Zerg and 1 Protoss with the Dhalgate.
One time against a 5rr, once against a 6pool cause I am a noob and the Toss proxy2gated me cause I am a fucking nnnoooooob.
I snuck in three games intending to use it this morning.
Game 1: Quit 15 seconds in. Trying to lose down from Plat I guess.
Game 2: Metal, vZ. My probe is getting to his base (3rd I checked after scouting after gate at 10) and my zealot is just about to pop when 6 pool lings run by in. I react poorly and die.
Game 3: vT on Metal. I more or less pull it off, getting past a bunker at the ramp.... except I don't notice he sent five Marines to my base until most of my probe are already dead. I've taken out a barracks and a decent number of scvs but I have 2 probes left when my Nexus 'splodes
I have so far lost against 2 Zerg and 1 Protoss with the Dhalgate.
One time against a 5rr, once against a 6pool cause I am a noob and the Toss proxy2gated me cause I am a fucking nnnoooooob.
I snuck in three games intending to use it this morning.
Game 1: Quit 15 seconds in. Trying to lose down from Plat I guess.
Game 2: Metal, vZ. My probe is getting to his base (3rd I checked after scouting after gate at 10) and my zealot is just about to pop when 6 pool lings run by in. I react poorly and die.
Game 3: vT on Metal. I more or less pull it off, getting past a bunker at the ramp.... except I don't notice he sent five Marines to my base until most of my probe are already dead. I've taken out a barracks and a decent number of scvs but I have 2 probes left when my Nexus 'splodes
how was a zealot popping when 6pool lings were coming to your base?
you shouldn't be making a zealot until you have all four warpgates up and running.
i mean, not that making a zealot is a bad choice if you're getting 6pooled, but you hadn't scouted it yet, so that was just the wrong build.
I have so far lost against 2 Zerg and 1 Protoss with the Dhalgate.
One time against a 5rr, once against a 6pool cause I am a noob and the Toss proxy2gated me cause I am a fucking nnnoooooob.
I snuck in three games intending to use it this morning.
Game 1: Quit 15 seconds in. Trying to lose down from Plat I guess.
Game 2: Metal, vZ. My probe is getting to his base (3rd I checked after scouting after gate at 10) and my zealot is just about to pop when 6 pool lings run by in. I react poorly and die.
Game 3: vT on Metal. I more or less pull it off, getting past a bunker at the ramp.... except I don't notice he sent five Marines to my base until most of my probe are already dead. I've taken out a barracks and a decent number of scvs but I have 2 probes left when my Nexus 'splodes
how was a zealot popping when 6pool lings were coming to your base?
you shouldn't be making a zealot until you have all four warpgates up and running.
i mean, not that making a zealot is a bad choice if you're getting 6pooled, but you hadn't scouted it yet, so that was just the wrong build.
Well I intended to use it but I'm not skipping that zealot v Z. In the end its equivalent - you just build a Zealot early to hold the ramp, don't build the first Stalker until second Stalker timing and warp in 4 Stalkers at the front when the time comes.
I did stomp my Diamond level friend using it yesterday even when I told him it was coming, but he was playing off race as Terran.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Well, if thats the way you want to play it.
Its will let his scout be in your base for longer.
Whatever suits your playstyle better, but just so you know its a flaw in your play to be unwilling to go without military units. By all means if you know something is coming build that zealot but eventually you want to develop the confidence to trust what you scout.
That said, however, the build is not all that great against Zerg, and its not the build you should be using if you're worrying about early attacks from Zerg, ie, any build other than FE.
If a Zerg FEs, you don't have to worry about early attacks, and if they don't FE you shouldn't be using the build.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
one base cutting probes for a rush is pretty all in though (edit - it's not, really, but I think it makes sense to call it that. you're putting yourself at a huge deficit for a single attack that may or may not work depending on opponent scouting)
like it's as close as you get without actually sending scvs/probes isn't it?
technically you can send 5 probes and 1 marine and still keep living but I'd call it pretty all in too.
for the record, I use cheese as little as possible (the term) and I don't mean it pejoratively at all. it's all strategies and tactics. I hate losing to it more because I want to learn the game but hey, it's part of the game and it's not my ladder opponent's responsibility to help me learn the way I want
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Being economically behind and having gone all-in and failed is not the same thing.
Lets take it at the absolute worst. You go the 4gate fast 5stalker 1 zealot attack. You poke up the ramp, he's seen you coming and has 3 bunkers full of units up there. At the most, he probably has maybe 28-30 workers, but he can't be making an expansion anytime soon because he's spent a lot on army to hold you off. Keep your army there, start chronoboosting probes, poke up occasionally to make sure he's not salvaging the bunkers to use the money to expand.
That is far from being screwed. And thats the absolute worst case! I find it hard to imagine the build being repelled THAT well with an economic build that doesn't cut workers.
You have at least 1.5 chronoboosts when the attack first hits with the build, and by the time you retreat you'll have just over 2 worth of energy, which can get another 4-5 probes out super fast.
And if he does salvage those bunkers and spends some money on expanding, you then attack.
Yes, its an economic sacrifice to pull it off, and yes, you will be behind if it fails, but not to the degree that justifies calling it all-in.
There is a variant of the build that hits 30 seconds earlier off 2 warp gates with the same amount of units that cuts at 12 probes.
For Terran it appears that the marauder expand beats it, at least Meeks beat it using marauder expand, but that may have been due to making a couple of poor choices on my part (built the proxy pylon on the a-move route to my base due to being on an unfamiliar map, as well as going for a base race I knew I wouldn't win)
For anyone wondering how to stop Dhals 5+1 push as protos here is one way that should work on any map without a backdoor.
Play standard (13 gate etc) and scout at your 9 pylon. On LT the latest you'll scout the enemy is at 3:10. Notice his sheningans.
Odds are you've just about started your cybercore and is about 17 or so. Do *not* stop building probes.
Instead do the following in this order:
a) as long as you have more than 50 gas pull all probes to minerals.
b) pull one probe to attack his probe if it's still in your base.
c) build a forge as soon as you can afford it
d) place your next pylon (probably third) where you want your defense. Best place is in front of your nat if that covers your main as well.
e) chrono boost out your first stalker asap. Do NOT let his probe get inside your base again or you are dead.
f) build 4 cannons at your defensive pylon.
4 cannons + 1 stalker at 5:50 should hold it perfectly. You only have 1 gate and 1 stalker but you should have a ton more probes then your opponent.
uh, and what does this do if he just sends his zealot in to draw cannon fire, snipes the pylon?
You might kill 1-2 of the stalkers and the zealot but then he still has three-four stalkers left, with reinforcements on their way.
I'd like to test it after GSL, if i could.
Took a while to reply because I was out studying.
Here is the replay I made this morning to test out the timing. I've only done it once because I thought about how to defend it last night and I made the rep this morning while drinking my tea, which shows.
I made a *ton* of mistakes in this rep so it's hardly streamlined but the last cannon warps in 5:50 and I have about 28 probes. I can't see a good way to why it wouldn't stop your rush. (By the way not using that one idle probe in my base and the scouting probe is on purpose, one will be chasing the enemy probe and the other one will go back to base asap, probably to build a pylon.
I could probably have had more probes and another cannon or pylon if I played optimally.
The point about sniping the pylon is valid, however:
1) I didn't deviate builds until I scouted the last position, on a 2 player map OR if you get lucky you can have 2 pylons.
2) My placement was really sloopy but you can place pylons about two steps behind of 4 cannons making that first snipe attempt much more difficult.
3) Many maps allow you to shut this move down hard by placing your pylon on the cliff, out of sight range.
4) If it really is a dealbreaker it's easy to cut one probe near the end and just build that 4th pylon.
I really don't see how this build wouldn't stop the rush.
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waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaow - Felicia, SPFT2:T
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
If I ever 9 pool, which is hardly ever, it's just cause I can micro my lings pretty well and keep your probes busy while I continue to macro . 6 pools never work.
If I ever 9 pool, which is hardly ever, it's just cause I can micro my lings pretty well and keep your probes busy while I continue to macro . 6 pools never work.
6 pools are pretty much the same idea.
Send 6 lings, micro to screw up with their build and pick off probes, mash 5sd constantly.
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I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
For Terran it appears that the marauder expand beats it, at least Meeks beat it using marauder expand, but that may have been due to making a couple of poor choices on my part (built the proxy pylon on the a-move route to my base due to being on an unfamiliar map, as well as going for a base race I knew I wouldn't win)
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I buy them all even though it's a pain in the ass to watch live on a Mac. More about supporting the idea.
remeber to stay tuned in for now to watch the ogsMC interview if they have one
he always gives good interviews
Well, I had to go grocery shopping. But that's why I have you wonderful gents to tell me what happened.
edit: haha john wandering into camera view there
edit2: ogsmc cool as fuck, relaxing back and leaning back there
shit seems so awkward
like right now I just heard ___420 asks...
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Roffles
i mean i can kind of know its exciting when the commentators start screaming but they scream about anything
when you get higher ranked you'll encounter people who can defend it, forcing you to mid-game, making you learn to play better.
B.net: Kusanku
Then start branching out into new strategies with the macro mechanics that you've built via 4-gate repetition.
exactly what kind of higher rank are you talking about?
the specific build we're talking about has not lost me a game on ladder yet vs Protoss or Terran, at 2500 Diamond.
Meeks beat it with the marauder expand build, I don't know if that countered my build or if it countered me specifically, but that is so far the only time I personally have lost with it. I'm not sure about Klyka.
Yes, its counterable, but implying that it is automatically beatable by anyone higher rank is just dumb. Its an exceedingly powerful build, much more so than a standard 4gate, though you make more of an economic sacrifice than you do with a normal 4gate, meaning that you have to do some damage or you will be behind. Luckily, because it hits so early, its very easy, given correct execution, to do that damage if not win outright.
EDIT: let me just say I don't mean to come across as overly defensive here, although I know thats how it reads. I realise you're just making a point about single builds and how they will only take you so far. However, Klyka is more than experienced enough to be well aware of this.
This game felt really good. Its the first game where I've felt really like I'm starting to get a grasp on how Zerg works and how they interact with the other races.
I would therefore love if one of the good Zerg players here can take a look at it, rip me apart and tell me what I should be doing differently.
Please avoid mentioning the fact that I don't hotkey my queens. I know I don't. I don't feel I need to. Forgetting to larvae inject is a problem for me, but when I do remember (and its not THAT bad, my queens never hit 200 energy for example, at least), I find that manually moving to each hatch and selecting the queen manually to inject is plenty fast enough for now.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=179031
Everyone owned in the hierarchy that you would expect.
One time against a 5rr, once against a 6pool cause I am a noob and the Toss proxy2gated me cause I am a fucking nnnoooooob.
Didn't I analyze one of your games yesterday?
I'm not really a "good" Zerg player though.
I exaggerate, but it seems that "1base" has become synonymous with "all-in", which has become synonymous with "cheese".
Which just isn't true. I think we can all agree some strategies are a bit cheesy. Proxy void rays...proxy gateways...cannon rushes....6pools, proxy barracks...basically anything that automatically loses if scouted early, not only because its been scouted, but also because its too late to back out, you're committed
However, something like a 4gate that cuts a lot of probes, or a 4rax attack from 1 base, or a 1base roach attack, those aren't cheese. You may scout them and respond correctly, but they aren't cheese, you don't automatically win. First, you have to respond correctly and secondly your opponent can simply back out. He might be a little behind by having to swap to another plan, but he won't automatically lose or be WAY behind the way he is if a proxy fails or a cannon rush fails.
All of you guys need to stop and think about things a little before you call so many strategies cheese, or all-in, when in fact they are not even cheese, and some of them aren't even all-in! Being behind, economically or otherwise, if an attack fails does not necessarily make that attack all-in, only when you are unrecoverably far behind.
Yeah, you did. I'd appreciate another look from someone who's seen previous play.
terran turtle all the time
zerg rush all day erry day
I snuck in three games intending to use it this morning.
Game 1: Quit 15 seconds in. Trying to lose down from Plat I guess.
Game 2: Metal, vZ. My probe is getting to his base (3rd I checked after scouting after gate at 10) and my zealot is just about to pop when 6 pool lings run by in. I react poorly and die.
Game 3: vT on Metal. I more or less pull it off, getting past a bunker at the ramp.... except I don't notice he sent five Marines to my base until most of my probe are already dead. I've taken out a barracks and a decent number of scvs but I have 2 probes left when my Nexus 'splodes
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
how was a zealot popping when 6pool lings were coming to your base?
you shouldn't be making a zealot until you have all four warpgates up and running.
i mean, not that making a zealot is a bad choice if you're getting 6pooled, but you hadn't scouted it yet, so that was just the wrong build.
Well I intended to use it but I'm not skipping that zealot v Z. In the end its equivalent - you just build a Zealot early to hold the ramp, don't build the first Stalker until second Stalker timing and warp in 4 Stalkers at the front when the time comes.
I did stomp my Diamond level friend using it yesterday even when I told him it was coming, but he was playing off race as Terran.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Its will let his scout be in your base for longer.
Whatever suits your playstyle better, but just so you know its a flaw in your play to be unwilling to go without military units. By all means if you know something is coming build that zealot but eventually you want to develop the confidence to trust what you scout.
That said, however, the build is not all that great against Zerg, and its not the build you should be using if you're worrying about early attacks from Zerg, ie, any build other than FE.
If a Zerg FEs, you don't have to worry about early attacks, and if they don't FE you shouldn't be using the build.
like it's as close as you get without actually sending scvs/probes isn't it?
technically you can send 5 probes and 1 marine and still keep living but I'd call it pretty all in too.
for the record, I use cheese as little as possible (the term) and I don't mean it pejoratively at all. it's all strategies and tactics. I hate losing to it more because I want to learn the game but hey, it's part of the game and it's not my ladder opponent's responsibility to help me learn the way I want
Lets take it at the absolute worst. You go the 4gate fast 5stalker 1 zealot attack. You poke up the ramp, he's seen you coming and has 3 bunkers full of units up there. At the most, he probably has maybe 28-30 workers, but he can't be making an expansion anytime soon because he's spent a lot on army to hold you off. Keep your army there, start chronoboosting probes, poke up occasionally to make sure he's not salvaging the bunkers to use the money to expand.
That is far from being screwed. And thats the absolute worst case! I find it hard to imagine the build being repelled THAT well with an economic build that doesn't cut workers.
You have at least 1.5 chronoboosts when the attack first hits with the build, and by the time you retreat you'll have just over 2 worth of energy, which can get another 4-5 probes out super fast.
And if he does salvage those bunkers and spends some money on expanding, you then attack.
Yes, its an economic sacrifice to pull it off, and yes, you will be behind if it fails, but not to the degree that justifies calling it all-in.
There is a variant of the build that hits 30 seconds earlier off 2 warp gates with the same amount of units that cuts at 12 probes.
THAT, is all-in. 18 probes isn't.
Took a while to reply because I was out studying.
Here is the replay I made this morning to test out the timing. I've only done it once because I thought about how to defend it last night and I made the rep this morning while drinking my tea, which shows.
I made a *ton* of mistakes in this rep so it's hardly streamlined but the last cannon warps in 5:50 and I have about 28 probes. I can't see a good way to why it wouldn't stop your rush. (By the way not using that one idle probe in my base and the scouting probe is on purpose, one will be chasing the enemy probe and the other one will go back to base asap, probably to build a pylon.
I could probably have had more probes and another cannon or pylon if I played optimally.
The point about sniping the pylon is valid, however:
1) I didn't deviate builds until I scouted the last position, on a 2 player map OR if you get lucky you can have 2 pylons.
2) My placement was really sloopy but you can place pylons about two steps behind of 4 cannons making that first snipe attempt much more difficult.
3) Many maps allow you to shut this move down hard by placing your pylon on the cliff, out of sight range.
4) If it really is a dealbreaker it's easy to cut one probe near the end and just build that 4th pylon.
I really don't see how this build wouldn't stop the rush.
B.net: Kusanku
6 pools are pretty much the same idea.
Send 6 lings, micro to screw up with their build and pick off probes, mash 5sd constantly.
God damnit i hate autorepair so damn much
nada vs. inca was aaawwwwwesome
just remember: the 4gate was the first popular all in strategy of this game
blame yoself
bnet: moss*1454
You probably know this already Dhal, but it is possible to manually aim cannons.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I thought they put those on F5-F8 in one of the earlier patches for sc2....
Joe's Stream.