3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Cheese is always an all-in, but an all-in is not always cheese.
And heavy early pressure is not always an all-in.
Dhal the 4gate is considered by many to be an all-in because if it's held off without doing a very large amount of damage, it's difficult to come back from.
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Tonight, after work, still kinda sick, totally tired = will play at least 5 games doing "DAS DHAL VIER GATE"
Cheese is always an all-in, but an all-in is not always cheese.
And heavy early pressure is not always an all-in.
Dhal the 4gate is considered by many to be an all-in because if it's held off without doing a very large amount of damage, it's difficult to come back from.
I generally agree with this as a definition: Cheese is a derogatory term for early game all in plays.
All-in Play, on the other hand is a better word and is much more descriptive. A lot of different scenarios are covered by the description of "all in" - which, in effect, just refers to any high risk/high gain play. Sometimes all-in play is justified and sometimes the probablity of it backfiring is low, but if it does backfire the damage would be significant.
For example: If you perform the Dhalgate opening and get to a point where you need to decide: Do I warp in four more stalkers and hope that it is enough to beat his remaining units and win the game OR do I expand and do whatever damage I can with the units I have and you decide to warp in those stalkers: that is an all-in play. If you choose to expand, its a little more ambiguous, but your transition is, at that point, back to normal play. How easy or hard it is to transition to a normal game (which is roughly even) is kind of a yardstick for whether you made an all in play or not.
My two issues with actual cheese are that: I've been told that it can oft/always be scouted in time to respond, but I don't play the game enough to know WHAT I've just scouted. So my dude gets to your base, I see you have a gas, and a spawning pool done. I now know that...you have a gas and a spawning pool done. Or I push a zergling up your ramp to the wall off, and I see that 2 marines and a marauder killed the zergling, this clearly tells me that...you have 2 marines and a marauder.
...
The other issue is that even if I DO scout something cheesy, and I'm like "OMG ZERG RUUUUSH"...that doesn't mean I know how to fix it. I guess I'm supposed to...pull something? Off of something? Or maybe plant a dude into that thing that does that other thing?
I just don't like the ridiculously small margin of error for responding to true and actual cheese.
/rant I guess
Early all-in plays are, in most cases, characterized by two or more of these three things when you scout:
A) Unusually low numbers of workers. No gas*
C) Lack of normal buildings in main
One notable exception to this is the regular 4 gate which is very hard to spot. Often, the only missing building is a pylon, but P likes to place proxy pylons regardless of their strategy because it makes it easy to reinforce any pushes during the game. Additionally, some early aggression requires gas (like quick banshees or void rays or fast speedlings), however, most super-fast aggression does not. Cannon rushes, proxy gates/rax, 2gate, 2rax, and 3rax can all basically be scouted with the first two criteria. Lack of normal buildings is also a major sign of proxy, hidden expo, or cannon rush.
Hope this helps with the scouting! Others feel free to add if I missed something.
Sounds so simple but i simply must start hotkeying my support pylon for warp ins, makes so much sense too but i keep forgetting and bumblefucking around to find it when i need reups
Oh man.
How did I never think of that?
I know right? I had to watch a pro stream to find it out, i saw him hotkey a pylon to 6 and think...well thats stupid, then called myself an idiot and hung my head in shame.
I've always done this for nydus worms, it's specially helpful for when you have your vision on the enemy base, you just press your nydus network hotkey and spawn the exit.
Being economically behind and having gone all-in and failed is not the same thing.
Lets take it at the absolute worst. You go the 4gate fast 5stalker 1 zealot attack. You poke up the ramp, he's seen you coming and has 3 bunkers full of units up there. At the most, he probably has maybe 28-30 workers, but he can't be making an expansion anytime soon because he's spent a lot on army to hold you off. Keep your army there, start chronoboosting probes, poke up occasionally to make sure he's not salvaging the bunkers to use the money to expand.
That is far from being screwed. And thats the absolute worst case! I find it hard to imagine the build being repelled THAT well with an economic build that doesn't cut workers.
You have at least 1.5 chronoboosts when the attack first hits with the build, and by the time you retreat you'll have just over 2 worth of energy, which can get another 4-5 probes out super fast.
And if he does salvage those bunkers and spends some money on expanding, you then attack.
Yes, its an economic sacrifice to pull it off, and yes, you will be behind if it fails, but not to the degree that justifies calling it all-in.
There is a variant of the build that hits 30 seconds earlier off 2 warp gates with the same amount of units that cuts at 12 probes.
THAT, is all-in. 18 probes isn't.
The enemy has double your worker count and that's not considered an all-in?
1 base play is usually considered all-in because if you don't win with your first big attack the game is over (against equally skilled opponents). Do you have a replay where your initial attack failed, the terran bunkered up, and you recovered your economy? Can this attack really buy you the time to double your worker count and throw down an expansion?
Got a replay of that exact situation? I'm a bit skeptical as I think it's just a slightly modified 4gate and then trying to call it something else. Like putting wings on a Volkswagen and calling it an airplane.
Yey? from what i hear its easier to get promoted again if you do well after your first promotion, so if your alot better than your opponents youll hit plat soon im sure.
LOLNEWREPLAY:
I'd love some criticism on this match. The only real counter to my strat I've found is phoenix/zealot, which is easy to counter in itself.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
aw man totally ripped a toss apart on jungle basin by sending a small force through the rocks.
sent a big force into his main and destroyed... everything
edit - dangerisk teaching me my tvt is actually a joke.
I wish they would just fucking patch* zvz out of this game. Does anyone enjoy them? They make me really wish the other guy would get liver cancer.
Soooooo... I don't play ZvZ so all of you who do, much respect - I have a hard time offracing as zerg, let alone when ZvZ comes up. That said, I still have to wonder if a gameplan to force ZvZ into a long macro game is possible. Is there a way to use an evo chamber and a spine crawler to create a wall-off? Or...?
I wish they would just fucking patch* zvz out of this game. Does anyone enjoy them? They make me really wish the other guy would get liver cancer.
Soooooo... I don't play ZvZ so all of you who do, much respect - I have a hard time offracing as zerg, let alone when ZvZ comes up. That said, I still have to wonder if a gameplan to force ZvZ into a long macro game is possible. Is there a way to use an evo chamber and a spine crawler to create a wall-off? Or...?
Actually, the current zerg metagame is macro style with a hatch first opening into big roach armies. Since you can comfortably hold off almost all early aggression with hatch-first, you don't have to resort to any funny simcity tricks to make it work.
Zvz in this context boils down to constant ling scouting and harassing while you macro up drones/roaches/upgrades as hard as possible. I think it's probably the most fun out of the mirror match-ups currently.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
I wish they would just fucking patch* zvz out of this game. Does anyone enjoy them? They make me really wish the other guy would get liver cancer.
Soooooo... I don't play ZvZ so all of you who do, much respect - I have a hard time offracing as zerg, let alone when ZvZ comes up. That said, I still have to wonder if a gameplan to force ZvZ into a long macro game is possible. Is there a way to use an evo chamber and a spine crawler to create a wall-off? Or...?
Actually, the current zerg metagame is macro style with a hatch first opening into big roach armies. Since you can comfortably hold off almost all early aggression with hatch-first, you don't have to resort to any funny simcity tricks to make it work.
Zvz in this context boils down to constant ling scouting and harassing while you macro up drones/roaches/upgrades as hard as possible. I think it's probably the most fun out of the mirror match-ups currently.
ZvZ has quickly become my favourite of the 3 matchups because I am playing it correctly when all I do is macro!
I wish they would just fucking patch* zvz out of this game. Does anyone enjoy them? They make me really wish the other guy would get liver cancer.
Soooooo... I don't play ZvZ so all of you who do, much respect - I have a hard time offracing as zerg, let alone when ZvZ comes up. That said, I still have to wonder if a gameplan to force ZvZ into a long macro game is possible. Is there a way to use an evo chamber and a spine crawler to create a wall-off? Or...?
Actually, the current zerg metagame is macro style with a hatch first opening into big roach armies. Since you can comfortably hold off almost all early aggression with hatch-first, you don't have to resort to any funny simcity tricks to make it work.
Zvz in this context boils down to constant ling scouting and harassing while you macro up drones/roaches/upgrades as hard as possible. I think it's probably the most fun out of the mirror match-ups currently.
really, hatch first? Normal 14 hatch? The Mr. Bitters/EGMachine lessons suggested 1 base roach until roach speed and burrow are done, and then expand. just watch out for early speedlings as the weakest spot.
Posts
And heavy early pressure is not always an all-in.
Dhal the 4gate is considered by many to be an all-in because if it's held off without doing a very large amount of damage, it's difficult to come back from.
good idea/bad idea?
You can join me and Raz and Satan if you like, weve been customing it up a bit this eve already
if you're gonna do the same thing every game being sick will probably not be much of a hindrance I imagine.
It is like a trap.
I could post Akbar here right now.
Come....4 gate....it will work
Forever and ever and ever
:shock::shock::shock::shock:
oh he is just finishing a nexus, my army ought to be a little ahead
*battle*
oh... well he still has 15 stalkers and I have nothing. hmm.
Yeah, it'll be super fun getting 6 pooled, 2raxed and proxy gated every game :P
I want to copy his build Day9 covered in PvZ but I'm going to have to practice it a lot because when I do use gateway versus Zerg I usually lose.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I generally agree with this as a definition: Cheese is a derogatory term for early game all in plays.
All-in Play, on the other hand is a better word and is much more descriptive. A lot of different scenarios are covered by the description of "all in" - which, in effect, just refers to any high risk/high gain play. Sometimes all-in play is justified and sometimes the probablity of it backfiring is low, but if it does backfire the damage would be significant.
For example: If you perform the Dhalgate opening and get to a point where you need to decide: Do I warp in four more stalkers and hope that it is enough to beat his remaining units and win the game OR do I expand and do whatever damage I can with the units I have and you decide to warp in those stalkers: that is an all-in play. If you choose to expand, its a little more ambiguous, but your transition is, at that point, back to normal play. How easy or hard it is to transition to a normal game (which is roughly even) is kind of a yardstick for whether you made an all in play or not.
Early all-in plays are, in most cases, characterized by two or more of these three things when you scout:
A) Unusually low numbers of workers.
C) Lack of normal buildings in main
One notable exception to this is the regular 4 gate which is very hard to spot. Often, the only missing building is a pylon, but P likes to place proxy pylons regardless of their strategy because it makes it easy to reinforce any pushes during the game. Additionally, some early aggression requires gas (like quick banshees or void rays or fast speedlings), however, most super-fast aggression does not. Cannon rushes, proxy gates/rax, 2gate, 2rax, and 3rax can all basically be scouted with the first two criteria. Lack of normal buildings is also a major sign of proxy, hidden expo, or cannon rush.
Hope this helps with the scouting! Others feel free to add if I missed something.
Only promoted to gold
I've always done this for nydus worms, it's specially helpful for when you have your vision on the enemy base, you just press your nydus network hotkey and spawn the exit.
oh my god your name is kiwi's pronunciation of marauder
The enemy has double your worker count and that's not considered an all-in?
1 base play is usually considered all-in because if you don't win with your first big attack the game is over (against equally skilled opponents). Do you have a replay where your initial attack failed, the terran bunkered up, and you recovered your economy? Can this attack really buy you the time to double your worker count and throw down an expansion?
Got a replay of that exact situation? I'm a bit skeptical as I think it's just a slightly modified 4gate and then trying to call it something else. Like putting wings on a Volkswagen and calling it an airplane.
Yey?
SC2 EU: Raz.982
I'd love some criticism on this match. The only real counter to my strat I've found is phoenix/zealot, which is easy to counter in itself.
sent a big force into his main and destroyed... everything
edit - dangerisk teaching me my tvt is actually a joke.
something to be laughed at.
But no-one wants to see me humiliated surely?
:twisted:
Let's fight.
Yeah I'm talking to you punk. Don't play dumb I know you heard me.
Dangerisk.246
Soooooo... I don't play ZvZ so all of you who do, much respect - I have a hard time offracing as zerg, let alone when ZvZ comes up. That said, I still have to wonder if a gameplan to force ZvZ into a long macro game is possible. Is there a way to use an evo chamber and a spine crawler to create a wall-off? Or...?
Let's take a journey
a journey that goes back in time a few months
i used to tell noobs
ignore your army, you should be macroing
ignore your army, you should be macroing
ignore your army, you should be macroing
i even posted a 3rd person view video artosis recorded of fucking NADA scrolling back to his base mid battle to macro
but that's ok, there's only so much room in diamond
Actually, the current zerg metagame is macro style with a hatch first opening into big roach armies. Since you can comfortably hold off almost all early aggression with hatch-first, you don't have to resort to any funny simcity tricks to make it work.
Zvz in this context boils down to constant ling scouting and harassing while you macro up drones/roaches/upgrades as hard as possible. I think it's probably the most fun out of the mirror match-ups currently.
ZvZ has quickly become my favourite of the 3 matchups because I am playing it correctly when all I do is macro!
i can play toss or terran competently, and zerg at about a silver level.
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
really, hatch first? Normal 14 hatch? The Mr. Bitters/EGMachine lessons suggested 1 base roach until roach speed and burrow are done, and then expand. just watch out for early speedlings as the weakest spot.
Joe's Stream.
this is my reaction to this post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMm1Wih0kug&feature=related
Steam ID
because hellll yea
anyway back to sc huh nerf stalkers