i am frustrated at penny arcade's being censored yet again. bring back the shirt.
I AM FRUSTRATED AT YOUR UTTER INABILITY TO USE CAPITALS. also your rape of apostrophes.
that apostrophe is used correctly, you silly goose. failure to capitalize is because this is the internet, not my book report. this is an on topic forum.
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Burden of ProofYou three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on.Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
"i am frustrated at penny arcade being censored yet again" seems fine
I'd like to clarify for everyone that this is a place for you to express your views, not a place to argue with other forumers. If you have a problem with another user's post, use the report button. People who argue with "trolls" are causing just as much of a problem.
I love going to PAX, it is the most amazingly welcoming and safe place I have ever been to, both at Prime and East. One thing that stood out for me in last year's PAX East forum was when someone asked if it were OK for him to attend cos he's gay. His post was full of apology and waiting to be shot down. What followed was one of my proudest experiences when all the people I know irl on these forums piled in to say please come, we don't care about your sexuality, lets meet up, we're all OK. It cumulated in the LGBTOF meet-up in a bar in Boston - the "O" being for me - old, "F" being friendly. We had a brilliant evening, where I met a fellow Dr Who geek, and many, lovely fellow gamers.
I want PAX to stay the safe, friendly, welcoming place it is, without the crap other cons have; where I can feel just as much a part of it as everyone else, where I can wear a sparkly tiara all day long, with no-one batting an eyelid. I respect Mike and Jerry's decision to remove the t-shirt, and accept their rationale, just as I love the fact that they actively discourage booth babes.
Its their decision, not ours.
LewieP's Mummy on
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I hate censorship, especially self-censorship that comes about from the chilling effect of social pressure. I find that to be a very scary thing.
But, I think we should also recognize that Mike and Jerry aren't just artists, and aren't your typical artists. They are very popular and have a lot of exposure to many communities and markets. On top of that, insofar as PAX is concerned, they aren't just artists, they are community organizers and event planners.
The role and responsibility of a community organizer/event planner is quite a bit different from the artist. And it is unfortunate that a conflict arose between the two roles, but that's how I see this. I have no doubt that this decision troubled Mike and Jerry - how could it not? - but at the same time, when it comes to PAX, they have to protect the image of the event they are planning and as community organizers they have to promote a welcoming atmosphere. What PAX represents isn't necessarily and doesn't necessarily have to be the same tone as what the Penny Arcade comic and newsposts represent.
So, while I hate seeing Mike and Jerry capitulate to social pressure to take the t-shirt down, I can certainly understand why, and I can't fault them for it - it's not really their fault that some people will latch onto any sensitive subject within reach just to get attention for themselves. It sucks, but that is the situation Mike and Jerry found themselves in. It's all fine and good to judge them poorly for taking the t-shirt down, but try to put yourself in their situation - REALLY put yourself in there, with all the context of being Mike and Jerry - and ask yourself how you would act. I probably would have taken it down too, as much as it would have personally galled me to do so.
So did people say that they were less willing to attend PAX because they didn't want to go to an event held by the people who made the shirts, or because they would feel uncomfortable around people wearing the shirts?
If the former, removing the shirts makes no difference because the original comic and the snide response comic are both still there and your stance hasn't changed. You haven't "unmade" the shirts by taking them down.
If the latter, removing the shirts makes no difference because people who have already bought the shirt can still wear it unless you ban the shirt - in which case you did not need to remove it from the store.
So did people say that they were less willing to attend PAX because they didn't want to go to an event held by the people who made the shirts, or because they would feel uncomfortable around people wearing the shirts?
If the former, removing the shirts makes no difference because the original comic and the snide response comic are both still there and your stance hasn't changed. You haven't "unmade" the shirts by taking them down.
If the latter, removing the shirts makes no difference because people who have already bought the shirt can still wear it unless you ban the shirt - in which case you did not need to remove it from the store.
At least they're not actively supporting the shirt anymore, and that's the point. People buy shirts at PAX and then wear them the very next day to the show. This really does cut down on the amount of Dickwolves shirts at the show.
So did people say that they were less willing to attend PAX because they didn't want to go to an event held by the people who made the shirts, or because they would feel uncomfortable around people wearing the shirts?
If the former, removing the shirts makes no difference because the original comic and the snide response comic are both still there and your stance hasn't changed. You haven't "unmade" the shirts by taking them down.
If the latter, removing the shirts makes no difference because people who have already bought the shirt can still wear it unless you ban the shirt - in which case you did not need to remove it from the store.
At least they're not actively supporting the shirt anymore, and that's the point. People buy shirts at PAX and then wear them the very next day to the show. This really does cut down on the amount of Dickwolves shirts at the show.
And even if it was nothing more than a symbolic gesture, that still could/would "make a difference." Gestures are a big part of diplomacy.
Yet the Dickwolves strips remain, unchanged. So what has she accomplished?
She got PA to change something so SHE would feel comfortable at PAX. They caved to HER wishes.
What happens next? What happens if someone thinks Dungeons and Dragons promoties satanism (which it has been accused of as long as it's existed), and they complain about it? Do they take the 'Move Minor Standard' shirt off the store, cancel the D&D activites at PAX, and ban D&D paraphernalia from attendees?
If this individual and her group of friends were offended by something PA did/sold/said, and decided that they didn't want to attend PAX, then ok. That's their right. I'm sure they could have emailed that in and got refunds without a ton of public fuss about it. They would have found someone else to speak to cover that panel timeslot.
But she didn't. She rallied against PA for MONTHS, badgered them into changing something to fit HER wishes. Forget that 99% of the possible attendees understand the joke, and 100% of the attendees don't support rape.
This overly vocal person with a beef has now set the precedent that if you bitch and moan loud and long enough, PA will cave to your wishes.
And we all lose. What happens with Mike and Jerry start worrying about who they may piss off when they write their strips? People love PA because they're equal opportunity offenders.
Sorry, I should have said that while it clearly makes a difference (being the reason someone will/will not attend PAX) I don't understand why that should be the case.
At the end of the day, whether or not the shirt is available on the store you'll still be attending an expo hosted by the people who think dickwolves are funny, and surrounded by people who liked the joke.
I think we're all missing the real tragedy here. The insulting insensitivity of assuming that all dickwolves are rapists. If the strip had said "we're raped to sleep by humans" would a shirt that said "Go Humans!" have been removed?
Let me come clean for you: my little brother is a dickwolf. It's not by choice, he was just born that way. And he is a delightful little kid who couldn't stand even the thought of a rape. Don't let the actions a few dickwolves color your idea of every dickwolf in existence. Yes, some are evil virtual rapists. But the vast majority of dickwolves are normal people, just like you and me. They have jobs, they have spouses, they pay their taxes, they sit around watching TV and playing video games, and are no more a rapist than you or I.
So please, somebody: think of the dickwolves, and the horrorful stereotype that both PA's and this one lady's crass accusations and generalizations have brought upon them.
I'm not normally one to get involved in threads like this and as we all know they don't read a huge chunk of the message boards (if any chunks) but I did want to just put in my two cents.
Simply, I'm disappointed in them. It's not their funniest work admittedly but I'm just really saddened that they caved in to pressure from a small minority of readers and non-readers. Most comedy offends someone in someway and this does seem like a slippery slope.
The gloating from those that see this as a victory makes me really wish Mike/Jerry would reverse their stance - or at least sell the leftovers at PAX/PAXEast. Edit: Reading the front page makes it apparent that this won't happen - using PAX as the reason is honestly a very weak reason.
Sorry, I should have said that while it clearly makes a difference (being the reason someone will/will not attend PAX) I don't understand why that should be the case.
At the end of the day, whether or not the shirt is available on the store you'll still be attending an expo hosted by the people who think dickwolves are funny, and surrounded by people who liked the joke.
That's a good point. I don't see how anyone that was uncomfortable can go to PAX anymore. Can you really go to a convention where people want to wear a shit that basically says (apparently) team rapist? Even if they don't have the shirt they think and feel the same way. Just because a rapist doesn't wear a sign doesn't make him not a rapist, and just because someone wears a shirt doesn't make him a rapist.
However, still, the whole defense of 'It makes it so PAX isn't friendly' doesn't hold water with me, because they took out the pennants, too. Like I said before, the pennant is all I'm in for, and that is gone in this whole fiasco as well. You can't wear a pennant, and you would like an idiot walking around with a flag pole for the express purpose of having the pennant. The pennant should be brought back, because if their real problem was that the thing was about rape, the Fruit Fucker would be an issue as well. Its just a thing they can bring out, and doesn't have the kind of fans that I'm sure FF has, so they can make a point, and gain some clout. 'We got Penny Arcade to back down, you're going to be nothing.'
There is a small difference between a machine that engages in sexual activity with fruit and a monster that rapes people. Even fictional ones, on all counts. Just saying.
In my own mind I was pretty pro-Dickwolves but I didn't really care about the whole "we're not selling the shirt" thing because it seemed like either way it's not a big deal, but this post basically convinced me. I'm still not sure it's a big deal, but to the degree that anyone is right in this whole affair, I'd say it's the people who think like Randeh does. The jokes are the jokes, and if they're okay, they're okay, and pulling the shirts can only cause more harm in terms of conceding the argument while maintaining that PA is right and making Dickwolf shirt defenders (who are apparently still right?) look like silly geese.
I usually don't post until PAX Prime, but I read PA every day, and follow the guys on Twitter. This news brought me out of the woodwork. It's too important to NOT comment on.
When I saw the Dickwolves T-shirt design, I fully intended to buy one at PAX Prime (where I usually pick up several T-shirts I've been eyeing all year). Yesterday I saw Mike's twitter and now I wish I would have ordered it online.....if only to support the design. It's a shame some internet picketing can get the shirt removed for all of us (even though it was internet picketing that helped to get it created in the first place).
The fact that this shirt bothers a (very vocal) minority of people doesn't bother me. I also happen to own this t-shirt.
I'm pretty positive that the Jesus shirt I bought a few years ago (the one that is still for sale on the site today), has the potential to offend a much larger group of people...and so I have some common sense when I wear it. I don't wear it around my religious in-laws. I wouldn't wear it to church, or on Easter if I happened to be going out for breakfast. The one time someone EVER asked me about it, I said it was a reference to a web comic, where Jesus was awesome at Mario Kart. The person who asked seem pleased with my answer.
The Dickwolves shirt probably won't even register on the radar of any rape survivors I happen to run into out there, unless they happen to be:
A: fans of Penny Arcade who were offended by the strip (I can't imagine that number is too high).
B: fans of that girl's blog (a demographic I doubt exists in any measurable number outside of her circle of friends).
It's a shame to see that someone could bitch enough to get that garment removed from the store, and now I wonder how long it will be before someone complains and gets the Jesus shirts removed.
Just to be safe, you'd better stock up on these:
And this one:
And let's not forget this little guy. After all, he's a fruit rapist.
There must be a ton of these sitting in the PA warehouse now. How about a one day fire sale, donate the proceeds to Child's Play (or RAINN if that seems more fitting)...and watch how fast they sell out.
Seriously, the shirt is just about dickwolves being a funny word. Is it a wolf with dicks for arms and legs? Is it a wolf who acts like a dick (jerk)?
The solution here is to make it clear that many dickwolves exist beyond those who are evil slave-rapists in an imaginary MMO. Maybe a heroic dickwolf comes back to save the rest of the slaves and kill off the evil rapists. He could have a testicle for a shield and a dick for a sword, being held in his dick-arm.
Then we can continue to enjoy the humor in the word "dickwolf" without the word being restricted to a comic in which they represent rapists.
In my own mind I was pretty pro-Dickwolves but I didn't really care about the whole "we're not selling the shirt" thing because it seemed like either way it's not a big deal, but this post basically convinced me. I'm still not sure it's a big deal, but to the degree that anyone is right in this whole affair, I'd say it's the people who think like Randeh does. The jokes are the jokes, and if they're okay, they're okay, and pulling the shirts can only cause more harm in terms of conceding the argument while maintaining that PA is right and making Dickwolf shirt defenders (who are apparently still right?) look like silly geese.
I don't see how Mike and Jerry either need champions nor have any responsibility to their defenders.
I can see how a shirt defender might feel insulted, but to place any obligation on Mike and Jerry in that regard is equivalent to the people pressuring Mike and Jerry to remove the shirt or strip.
How about we all just respect that they are intelligent and savvy enough to be responsible for their own image and their own art? They don't really owe anyone anything. They don't even owe themselves anything, for that matter.
In my own mind I was pretty pro-Dickwolves but I didn't really care about the whole "we're not selling the shirt" thing because it seemed like either way it's not a big deal, but this post basically convinced me. I'm still not sure it's a big deal, but to the degree that anyone is right in this whole affair, I'd say it's the people who think like Randeh does. The jokes are the jokes, and if they're okay, they're okay, and pulling the shirts can only cause more harm in terms of conceding the argument while maintaining that PA is right and making Dickwolf shirt defenders (who are apparently still right?) look like silly geese.
I don't see how Mike and Jerry either need champions nor have any responsibility to their defenders.
I can see how a shirt defender might feel insulted, but to place any obligation on Mike and Jerry in that regard is equivalent to the people pressuring Mike and Jerry to remove the shirt or strip.
How about we all just respect that they are intelligent and savvy enough to be responsible for their own image and their own art? They don't really owe anyone anything. They don't even owe themselves anything, for that matter.
I get what you're saying but I think the reason a lot of us were posting disappointment was because usually they are the first to post against censorship and giving into small groups like this. It feels like if this happened to another comic that Mike and Jerry would be among the first to post that giving in would be the wrong move.
First off, the problem was never with the first strip. Ok someone got offended and wrote up a big thing about it, so what. It's not the first time someone got pissed at PA.
But, barring one other incident how many years ago, it was the first time PA felt to respond with another strip mocking them for it. And then to merchandise it. You could've just ignored it. You could've said "Whoh we didn't mean to make fun of rape folks." You could've even just gone "Look we're Penny Arcade we make rape jokes." Instead you decided to mock a goddamn rape victim.
Even now when you're pulling the T-shirts, you aren't doing it because you actually see "Whoh ok we made fun of rape victims not cool," you're doing it because people are getting upset for some arcane, unknowable reason, and you feel you need to appease them. Hey, word of advice? If you want people to not feel uncomfortable at your con? Don't pull the shirt and then brag about how you're going to wear one anyways on Twitter.
Even now people are calling to make the shirts on their own. To pass them out at the con to others, wearing them loud and proud, hooray for Dickwolves! You still haven't taken a step back to note what you've actually done. Instead of asking people not wear the shirts, you've polarized the situation more. You've declared open season on people who get uncomfortable by the thought of rape. It's sickening.
In today's internet culture, rape jokes are everywhere. Play an online game and read about how much people are raping you, how "you gon' get raped" if you walk outside alone, how much she was asking for it - a sickening defense still used in courtrooms. Bizarrely enough, you'll find that rape survivors don't find this funny.
Penny-Arcade is one of the pillars of internet geekdom. They aren't just beloved personalities, they're trendsetters and policymakers. What they've decided is that rape is funny and people that complain about it are squeaky wheels that ruin everything.
They've also given their tacit approval to make fun of rape survivors who speak their mind should be insulted, mocked, and turned into the enemy. Their best course of action was to remove the shirt, visibly applaud themselves on their front page while insinuating how much bull it is, and then privately talk about how they think people should wear the shirts to make people feel uncomfortable.
The funny thing about this is, the PA fans who are really upset by this, aren't even angry at Gabe and Tycho. All of their anger is directed at kirbybits. They're behaving as if she somehow got a court order and forced them to remove the shirts. They aren't at all recognizing that Gabe and Tycho are grown-ups and made the decision entirely on their end. So there are people posting threats and saying that they're going to hunt her down at the con (I'd be surprised if she showed up at all, at this point), because they simply can't reconcile the fact that she did nothing but voice her opinion. Nasty rape victim, she'll get what she deserves!
How can you read that and not be horrified?
But hey, it really is a true tragedy that a bunch of mean ol' rape survivors ruined Penny-Arcade's ability to mock them through t-shirt form. Today, we are all dickwolves.
Khoo seriously needs to hire a PR manager for the boys. They are two great big nerds who started out writing an internet comic and have found themselves at (or near) the head of a monstrous organization. This is why I love them: aside from the great big company part I and most other readers are just like them.
Most readers knew it was a joke and treated it as such, but PA has expanded more than Mike and Jerry could have ever imagined, and 'the fans' are now more diverse than they understand. They don't need to change what they do, they just need to chose how, why and when to defend it more tactfully.
So Khoo, get on this shit post haste, they need a real world liaison all up ins, stat.
I totally respect why they did this, and am actually glad that they're willing to take steps like this in order to keep Penny Arcade (the comic), and PAX, and Child's Play, and everything they've got going on the side as separate beasts. Compartmentalization in this case is really a good thing.
Penny Arcade is a vulgar, obscene, offensive comic and makes no apologies or excuses for it, and I wouldn't have it any other way. PAX, as Gabe put it, strives to be as laid back and welcoming as possible, to as many different groups as possible, so to me it seems incredibly obvious that they would adopt different philosophies and strategies for each. There's no burden of consistency there, because they've always been treated as different things.
This subject compelled me strongly enough today that after a decade I finally signed up on the forum to say just one thing:
First they came for the dickwolves, and I didn't speak out because I was not a dickwolf...
Big difference between the government restricting free speech and Mike and Jerry choosing to remove their own merchandise due to social pressure.
As much as I don't like it, stopping the sale of one's own artistic product is a freedom of speech/expression in and of itself. Like George Lucas having Greedo shoot first.
It may not be fair, but because of the reputation of 4channers, as people who go and troll other communities, it is perfectly reasonable to ignore a post from a 4channer.
This better applies to new accounts though, and not to long time members.
I do apologize for the generalization (and was infracted for it, which is fair enough): I should have explained that a user by that same name has been organizing trolling efforts on /v/, and that the gentleman joined yesterday and has five posts, all in this thread, all of which were reasons for my smelling troll.
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
First off, the problem was never with the first strip. Ok someone got offended and wrote up a big thing about it, so what. It's not the first time someone got pissed at PA.
But, barring one other incident how many years ago, it was the first time PA felt to respond with another strip mocking them for it. And then to merchandise it. You could've just ignored it. You could've said "Whoh we didn't mean to make fun of rape folks." You could've even just gone "Look we're Penny Arcade we make rape jokes." Instead you decided to mock a goddamn rape victim.
Even now when you're pulling the T-shirts, you aren't doing it because you actually see "Whoh ok we made fun of rape victims not cool," you're doing it because people are getting upset for some arcane, unknowable reason, and you feel you need to appease them. Hey, word of advice? If you want people to not feel uncomfortable at your con? Don't pull the shirt and then brag about how you're going to wear one anyways on Twitter.
Even now people are calling to make the shirts on their own. To pass them out at the con to others, wearing them loud and proud, hooray for Dickwolves! You still haven't taken a step back to note what you've actually done. Instead of asking people not wear the shirts, you've polarized the situation more. You've declared open season on people who get uncomfortable by the thought of rape. It's sickening.
In today's internet culture, rape jokes are everywhere. Play an online game and read about how much people are raping you, how "you gon' get raped" if you walk outside alone, how much she was asking for it - a sickening defense still used in courtrooms. Bizarrely enough, you'll find that rape survivors don't find this funny.
Penny-Arcade is one of the pillars of internet geekdom. They aren't just beloved personalities, they're trendsetters and policymakers. What they've decided is that rape is funny and people that complain about it are squeaky wheels that ruin everything.
They've also given their tacit approval to make fun of rape survivors who speak their mind should be insulted, mocked, and turned into the enemy. Their best course of action was to remove the shirt, visibly applaud themselves on their front page while insinuating how much bull it is, and then privately talk about how they think people should wear the shirts to make people feel uncomfortable.
The funny thing about this is, the PA fans who are really upset by this, aren't even angry at Gabe and Tycho. All of their anger is directed at kirbybits. They're behaving as if she somehow got a court order and forced them to remove the shirts. They aren't at all recognizing that Gabe and Tycho are grown-ups and made the decision entirely on their end. So there are people posting threats and saying that they're going to hunt her down at the con (I'd be surprised if she showed up at all, at this point), because they simply can't reconcile the fact that she did nothing but voice her opinion. Nasty rape victim, she'll get what she deserves!
How can you read that and not be horrified?
But hey, it really is a true tragedy that a bunch of mean ol' rape survivors ruined Penny-Arcade's ability to mock them through t-shirt form. Today, we are all dickwolves.
This post is so condescending that it makes it hard to believe it wasn’t written simply to get a rise out of people. You assume that anyone upset by the decision to remove the shirt and voices frustration about Kirbybits, is not only an open supporter of rape and rape culture but will go out of their way to disgrace and humiliate rape victims.
You’re using the word “rape” in a context that exists solely to perpetuate your argument. You're using the word “rape” to demonize people who may be upset about censorship or infringement upon freedoms through social pressure. I find your comments more offensive than the issues at hand; as you sit back and casually accuse whole swaths of people that they think Kirbybits is a “ Nasty rape victim, she'll get what she deserves“
If you want to support rape victims or raise awareness about rape, don’t make a post like the one I’m quoting here. You do nothing to help the cause.
I want to emphasize this point again, because I feel there's a lot of misplaced anger:
COURTNEY STANTON IS NOT THE ONE WHO GOT THE SHIRTS REMOVED.
She blogged about it, yes. She blogged about it very publicly. And she does happen to know some of the people who apparently talked privately with Mike, Jerry and Robert. But Mike himself was VERY clear that it wasn't some blogger who got them to put it down. It was people they respected raising reasonable concerns.
So flaming kirbybits on her blog, on Twitter? Not going to do a thing. You're just attacking a rape survivor for voicing her opinion and deciding, you know what, PAX isn't for her. Not using legal force, not organizing a boycott (even if she is/was participating in one), not leaving horse's heads in Mike's bed. Just voicing her opinion and staying away.
Do we need to get Wil Wheaton up in here?
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
I wrote up a fairly length response to ProfessorCirno, but then I closed it by accident when I went to eat some raisins so I'll boil down the main points:
First off, the problem was never with the first strip. Ok someone got offended and wrote up a big thing about it, so what. It's not the first time someone got pissed at PA.
But, barring one other incident how many years ago, it was the first time PA felt to respond with another strip mocking them for it. And then to merchandise it. You could've just ignored it. You could've said "Whoh we didn't mean to make fun of rape folks." You could've even just gone "Look we're Penny Arcade we make rape jokes." Instead you decided to mock a goddamn rape victim.
This, and the paragraph or two that follow, are broadly right, I think. Mike and Jerry clearly misunderstand the objection, and have thus mocked these people in a way they definitely don't deserve to be mocked. If that was the entirety of the issue, then I'd agree with you that PA is definitely in the wrong on this thing. It's not, though, and you realize that:
In today's internet culture, rape jokes are everywhere. Play an online game and read about how much people are raping you, how "you gon' get raped" if you walk outside alone, how much she was asking for it - a sickening defense still used in courtrooms. Bizarrely enough, you'll find that rape survivors don't find this funny.
So really the problem isn't just Mike and Jerry's rather blunt response: it's rape jokes in general, like the original comic that you said was fine. The point that I had made in a few paragraphs before but that I will now simply sum up is that if we carry the most reasonable arguments from both sides through to their conclusions, I think we come out on Penny Arcade's side and specifically on the side of the Dickwolf shirt.
People who take umbrage at the shirt and at the strip (but not at the strip where the Fruit Fucker molests Tycho's wife, or the one where Tycho is going to be raped by the TSA, or the customer raping robot) are, when you get down to it, one of the many people who form their own contingent of the joke police, a cadre that roams around the world telling humorists what it isn't okay to joke about. Rape is probably the most popular topic, followed by race, religion, sexism, and so on, but the sentiment is in my mind indefensible, especially when we come to rape, where the stigma is so big that many people feel completely unable to share their experiences or even report the rape.
Telling people that rape is so horrible that we can't even make jokes about it, even when we make jokes about genocide or torture or dead babies or whatever, is telling them that if they've been raped, they're never going to get over it, or at very least they'll never be able to make light of it.
I can't remember every single PA comic. That was years ago, I remember it now.
Regardless, my personal problem is still not with The Sixth Slave -- which was funny and a rather good commentary on a common flaw in MMO design (I HATE quests like that, let me tell you) -- but with Mike and Jerry's response. Public mockery leading in to merchandising. I bet they did get angry e-mails over the Fruit Fucker at one point, but I don't remember them ever responding in a public venue the way they did to the dickwolves criticism. The shirts were the cherry on top of a poor-taste sundae.
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Telling people that rape is so horrible that we can't even make jokes about it, even when we make jokes about genocide or torture or dead babies or whatever, is telling them that if they've been raped, they're never going to get over it, or at very least they'll never be able to make light of it.
The other comics present an issue with male rape. It's a far tinier group and thus less outrage.
I also don't see the original comic making "light" of rape: it's supposed to be a terrible thing which makes the situation the more ridiculous. Any sane person would free the sixth slave, but video games make us out to be very cold "heroes" and the comic deconstructs that.
And I don't think "getting over it" is some binary thing. I highly doubt a person is really capable of going back to a pre-rape mentality of life. Likely, you have good days and bad days. Just because they are a minority doesn't mean we should spite them with some very niche merchandise. Again: how many people are going to wear a dickwolf shirt in public all that often?
The people in here complaining about the destruction of free speech are amusing. I love how many people are choosing Dickwolves Hill as their last stand against this monolithic "cadre" of people that wish to take away your right to make certain jokes.
Ultimately, this is a situation and product that made a small subsection of readers feel bad. In some cases people that were victimized in the most cruel, despicable way imaginable. Those in control at PA were free to keep selling the shirt and they chose not to, because they didn't want to be or be seen as a company that thinks these concerns are frivolous (because they aren't, if you care about your fans).
I would defend their right to make that joke, all day erryday, but to respond to what was genuine, if misguided, criticism by belittling the argument and then creating and selling products with a related logo is probably not the adult way to respond. If they had kept the comic up, responded in news post and explained why the joke wasn't about or at the expense of rape, this would be a non-issue. If they had taken down the comic itself, I might think PA was kowtowing, but they didn't, and they aren't. They're backpedaling because their initial response was actually inappropriate. To paraphrase one of the people involved; these people are not American Greetings. They're not a national advocacy group, they are a subsection of fans.
But please, feel free to make bootleg Dickwolves shirts. Don't let the fact that it may actually hurt someone's feelings get in the way of you wearing a fucking t-shirt expressing someone else's joke. This is all very serious business.
The n-word is also banned on this forum, and that comes directly from Mike, Jerry, and Robert. Years before the Glorious Edict went into effect, any use of the n-word - even to quote, say, Mark Twain - was either instantly infractable, instantly jailable, or instantly bannable. I don't remember which, but it was a specific case at the time (not that calling someone a different racial or ethnic epithet would be met with hugs and kisses, but the n-word was an explicit, unambiguous no-no).
So this is not the first case of the MJR trio doing minor, selective censorship. In the end, we can speculate as to why, we can espouse a zero-tolerance policy on censorship and damn anyone else that ever dares to veer from it, but it isn't new here and it is what it is.
Seriously, the shirt is just about dickwolves being a funny word. Is it a wolf with dicks for arms and legs? Is it a wolf who acts like a dick (jerk)?
The solution here is to make it clear that many dickwolves exist beyond those who are evil slave-rapists in an imaginary MMO. Maybe a heroic dickwolf comes back to save the rest of the slaves and kill off the evil rapists. He could have a testicle for a shield and a dick for a sword, being held in his dick-arm.
Then we can continue to enjoy the humor in the word "dickwolf" without the word being restricted to a comic in which they represent rapists.
to me this whole incident is like telling Duke University that women will not feel safe there unless they stop selling any merch about their Lacrosse team.
to me this whole incident is like telling Duke University that women will not feel safe there unless they stop selling any merch about their Lacrosse team.
If lacrosse teams were fictional, and assembled for the sole purpose of raping people, you might be making a cogent point. If Duke released a piece of official media that portrayed the Blue Devil as some kind of rape monster, maybe that would be an analogous situation. But here you are talking about actual people in a real-world situation, and comparing it to a fictional creature primarily composed of dicks.
to me this whole incident is like telling Duke University that women will not feel safe there unless they stop selling any merch about their Lacrosse team.
This is a terrible example because you are referring to an infamous scandal revolving around a much publicized false accusation. So no, removing the shirt is not like that at all. Try to use some common sense if you insist on weighing in on this, please.
I love how many people are choosing Dickwolves Hill as their last stand against this monolithic "cadre" of people that wish to take away your right to make certain jokes.
Basically this.
There are times when standing on a point of principle is the right and honourable thing to do.
Other times it makes you look like a spiteful dick.
Posts
that apostrophe is used correctly, you silly goose. failure to capitalize is because this is the internet, not my book report. this is an on topic forum.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I love going to PAX, it is the most amazingly welcoming and safe place I have ever been to, both at Prime and East. One thing that stood out for me in last year's PAX East forum was when someone asked if it were OK for him to attend cos he's gay. His post was full of apology and waiting to be shot down. What followed was one of my proudest experiences when all the people I know irl on these forums piled in to say please come, we don't care about your sexuality, lets meet up, we're all OK. It cumulated in the LGBTOF meet-up in a bar in Boston - the "O" being for me - old, "F" being friendly. We had a brilliant evening, where I met a fellow Dr Who geek, and many, lovely fellow gamers.
I want PAX to stay the safe, friendly, welcoming place it is, without the crap other cons have; where I can feel just as much a part of it as everyone else, where I can wear a sparkly tiara all day long, with no-one batting an eyelid. I respect Mike and Jerry's decision to remove the t-shirt, and accept their rationale, just as I love the fact that they actively discourage booth babes.
Its their decision, not ours.
For paintings in progress, check out canvas and paints
"The power of the weirdness compels me."
But, I think we should also recognize that Mike and Jerry aren't just artists, and aren't your typical artists. They are very popular and have a lot of exposure to many communities and markets. On top of that, insofar as PAX is concerned, they aren't just artists, they are community organizers and event planners.
The role and responsibility of a community organizer/event planner is quite a bit different from the artist. And it is unfortunate that a conflict arose between the two roles, but that's how I see this. I have no doubt that this decision troubled Mike and Jerry - how could it not? - but at the same time, when it comes to PAX, they have to protect the image of the event they are planning and as community organizers they have to promote a welcoming atmosphere. What PAX represents isn't necessarily and doesn't necessarily have to be the same tone as what the Penny Arcade comic and newsposts represent.
So, while I hate seeing Mike and Jerry capitulate to social pressure to take the t-shirt down, I can certainly understand why, and I can't fault them for it - it's not really their fault that some people will latch onto any sensitive subject within reach just to get attention for themselves. It sucks, but that is the situation Mike and Jerry found themselves in. It's all fine and good to judge them poorly for taking the t-shirt down, but try to put yourself in their situation - REALLY put yourself in there, with all the context of being Mike and Jerry - and ask yourself how you would act. I probably would have taken it down too, as much as it would have personally galled me to do so.
If the former, removing the shirts makes no difference because the original comic and the snide response comic are both still there and your stance hasn't changed. You haven't "unmade" the shirts by taking them down.
If the latter, removing the shirts makes no difference because people who have already bought the shirt can still wear it unless you ban the shirt - in which case you did not need to remove it from the store.
At least they're not actively supporting the shirt anymore, and that's the point. People buy shirts at PAX and then wear them the very next day to the show. This really does cut down on the amount of Dickwolves shirts at the show.
And even if it was nothing more than a symbolic gesture, that still could/would "make a difference." Gestures are a big part of diplomacy.
She got PA to change something so SHE would feel comfortable at PAX. They caved to HER wishes.
What happens next? What happens if someone thinks Dungeons and Dragons promoties satanism (which it has been accused of as long as it's existed), and they complain about it? Do they take the 'Move Minor Standard' shirt off the store, cancel the D&D activites at PAX, and ban D&D paraphernalia from attendees?
If this individual and her group of friends were offended by something PA did/sold/said, and decided that they didn't want to attend PAX, then ok. That's their right. I'm sure they could have emailed that in and got refunds without a ton of public fuss about it. They would have found someone else to speak to cover that panel timeslot.
But she didn't. She rallied against PA for MONTHS, badgered them into changing something to fit HER wishes. Forget that 99% of the possible attendees understand the joke, and 100% of the attendees don't support rape.
This overly vocal person with a beef has now set the precedent that if you bitch and moan loud and long enough, PA will cave to your wishes.
And we all lose. What happens with Mike and Jerry start worrying about who they may piss off when they write their strips? People love PA because they're equal opportunity offenders.
How can any supposed fan want to change that?
I guess my response to this whole thing (as if anyone cared.) will be to give more money to Child's Play.
Good luck Mike, Jerry I'm sorry about the crap you're now wading in.
At the end of the day, whether or not the shirt is available on the store you'll still be attending an expo hosted by the people who think dickwolves are funny, and surrounded by people who liked the joke.
Let me come clean for you: my little brother is a dickwolf. It's not by choice, he was just born that way. And he is a delightful little kid who couldn't stand even the thought of a rape. Don't let the actions a few dickwolves color your idea of every dickwolf in existence. Yes, some are evil virtual rapists. But the vast majority of dickwolves are normal people, just like you and me. They have jobs, they have spouses, they pay their taxes, they sit around watching TV and playing video games, and are no more a rapist than you or I.
So please, somebody: think of the dickwolves, and the horrorful stereotype that both PA's and this one lady's crass accusations and generalizations have brought upon them.
Simply, I'm disappointed in them. It's not their funniest work admittedly but I'm just really saddened that they caved in to pressure from a small minority of readers and non-readers. Most comedy offends someone in someway and this does seem like a slippery slope.
The gloating from those that see this as a victory makes me really wish Mike/Jerry would reverse their stance - or at least sell the leftovers at PAX/PAXEast. Edit: Reading the front page makes it apparent that this won't happen - using PAX as the reason is honestly a very weak reason.
That's a good point. I don't see how anyone that was uncomfortable can go to PAX anymore. Can you really go to a convention where people want to wear a shit that basically says (apparently) team rapist? Even if they don't have the shirt they think and feel the same way. Just because a rapist doesn't wear a sign doesn't make him not a rapist, and just because someone wears a shirt doesn't make him a rapist.
Do you actually read the comic?
In my own mind I was pretty pro-Dickwolves but I didn't really care about the whole "we're not selling the shirt" thing because it seemed like either way it's not a big deal, but this post basically convinced me. I'm still not sure it's a big deal, but to the degree that anyone is right in this whole affair, I'd say it's the people who think like Randeh does. The jokes are the jokes, and if they're okay, they're okay, and pulling the shirts can only cause more harm in terms of conceding the argument while maintaining that PA is right and making Dickwolf shirt defenders (who are apparently still right?) look like silly geese.
When I saw the Dickwolves T-shirt design, I fully intended to buy one at PAX Prime (where I usually pick up several T-shirts I've been eyeing all year). Yesterday I saw Mike's twitter and now I wish I would have ordered it online.....if only to support the design. It's a shame some internet picketing can get the shirt removed for all of us (even though it was internet picketing that helped to get it created in the first place).
The fact that this shirt bothers a (very vocal) minority of people doesn't bother me. I also happen to own this t-shirt.
I'm pretty positive that the Jesus shirt I bought a few years ago (the one that is still for sale on the site today), has the potential to offend a much larger group of people...and so I have some common sense when I wear it. I don't wear it around my religious in-laws. I wouldn't wear it to church, or on Easter if I happened to be going out for breakfast. The one time someone EVER asked me about it, I said it was a reference to a web comic, where Jesus was awesome at Mario Kart. The person who asked seem pleased with my answer.
The Dickwolves shirt probably won't even register on the radar of any rape survivors I happen to run into out there, unless they happen to be:
A: fans of Penny Arcade who were offended by the strip (I can't imagine that number is too high).
B: fans of that girl's blog (a demographic I doubt exists in any measurable number outside of her circle of friends).
It's a shame to see that someone could bitch enough to get that garment removed from the store, and now I wonder how long it will be before someone complains and gets the Jesus shirts removed.
Just to be safe, you'd better stock up on these:
And this one:
And let's not forget this little guy. After all, he's a fruit rapist.
There must be a ton of these sitting in the PA warehouse now. How about a one day fire sale, donate the proceeds to Child's Play (or RAINN if that seems more fitting)...and watch how fast they sell out.
The solution here is to make it clear that many dickwolves exist beyond those who are evil slave-rapists in an imaginary MMO. Maybe a heroic dickwolf comes back to save the rest of the slaves and kill off the evil rapists. He could have a testicle for a shield and a dick for a sword, being held in his dick-arm.
Then we can continue to enjoy the humor in the word "dickwolf" without the word being restricted to a comic in which they represent rapists.
I don't see how Mike and Jerry either need champions nor have any responsibility to their defenders.
I can see how a shirt defender might feel insulted, but to place any obligation on Mike and Jerry in that regard is equivalent to the people pressuring Mike and Jerry to remove the shirt or strip.
How about we all just respect that they are intelligent and savvy enough to be responsible for their own image and their own art? They don't really owe anyone anything. They don't even owe themselves anything, for that matter.
I get what you're saying but I think the reason a lot of us were posting disappointment was because usually they are the first to post against censorship and giving into small groups like this. It feels like if this happened to another comic that Mike and Jerry would be among the first to post that giving in would be the wrong move.
First off, the problem was never with the first strip. Ok someone got offended and wrote up a big thing about it, so what. It's not the first time someone got pissed at PA.
But, barring one other incident how many years ago, it was the first time PA felt to respond with another strip mocking them for it. And then to merchandise it. You could've just ignored it. You could've said "Whoh we didn't mean to make fun of rape folks." You could've even just gone "Look we're Penny Arcade we make rape jokes." Instead you decided to mock a goddamn rape victim.
Even now when you're pulling the T-shirts, you aren't doing it because you actually see "Whoh ok we made fun of rape victims not cool," you're doing it because people are getting upset for some arcane, unknowable reason, and you feel you need to appease them. Hey, word of advice? If you want people to not feel uncomfortable at your con? Don't pull the shirt and then brag about how you're going to wear one anyways on Twitter.
Even now people are calling to make the shirts on their own. To pass them out at the con to others, wearing them loud and proud, hooray for Dickwolves! You still haven't taken a step back to note what you've actually done. Instead of asking people not wear the shirts, you've polarized the situation more. You've declared open season on people who get uncomfortable by the thought of rape. It's sickening.
In today's internet culture, rape jokes are everywhere. Play an online game and read about how much people are raping you, how "you gon' get raped" if you walk outside alone, how much she was asking for it - a sickening defense still used in courtrooms. Bizarrely enough, you'll find that rape survivors don't find this funny.
Penny-Arcade is one of the pillars of internet geekdom. They aren't just beloved personalities, they're trendsetters and policymakers. What they've decided is that rape is funny and people that complain about it are squeaky wheels that ruin everything.
They've also given their tacit approval to make fun of rape survivors who speak their mind should be insulted, mocked, and turned into the enemy. Their best course of action was to remove the shirt, visibly applaud themselves on their front page while insinuating how much bull it is, and then privately talk about how they think people should wear the shirts to make people feel uncomfortable.
The funny thing about this is, the PA fans who are really upset by this, aren't even angry at Gabe and Tycho. All of their anger is directed at kirbybits. They're behaving as if she somehow got a court order and forced them to remove the shirts. They aren't at all recognizing that Gabe and Tycho are grown-ups and made the decision entirely on their end. So there are people posting threats and saying that they're going to hunt her down at the con (I'd be surprised if she showed up at all, at this point), because they simply can't reconcile the fact that she did nothing but voice her opinion. Nasty rape victim, she'll get what she deserves!
How can you read that and not be horrified?
But hey, it really is a true tragedy that a bunch of mean ol' rape survivors ruined Penny-Arcade's ability to mock them through t-shirt form. Today, we are all dickwolves.
Most readers knew it was a joke and treated it as such, but PA has expanded more than Mike and Jerry could have ever imagined, and 'the fans' are now more diverse than they understand. They don't need to change what they do, they just need to chose how, why and when to defend it more tactfully.
So Khoo, get on this shit post haste, they need a real world liaison all up ins, stat.
Penny Arcade is a vulgar, obscene, offensive comic and makes no apologies or excuses for it, and I wouldn't have it any other way. PAX, as Gabe put it, strives to be as laid back and welcoming as possible, to as many different groups as possible, so to me it seems incredibly obvious that they would adopt different philosophies and strategies for each. There's no burden of consistency there, because they've always been treated as different things.
First they came for the dickwolves, and I didn't speak out because I was not a dickwolf...
Big difference between the government restricting free speech and Mike and Jerry choosing to remove their own merchandise due to social pressure.
As much as I don't like it, stopping the sale of one's own artistic product is a freedom of speech/expression in and of itself. Like George Lucas having Greedo shoot first.
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
This post is so condescending that it makes it hard to believe it wasn’t written simply to get a rise out of people. You assume that anyone upset by the decision to remove the shirt and voices frustration about Kirbybits, is not only an open supporter of rape and rape culture but will go out of their way to disgrace and humiliate rape victims.
You’re using the word “rape” in a context that exists solely to perpetuate your argument. You're using the word “rape” to demonize people who may be upset about censorship or infringement upon freedoms through social pressure. I find your comments more offensive than the issues at hand; as you sit back and casually accuse whole swaths of people that they think Kirbybits is a “ Nasty rape victim, she'll get what she deserves“
If you want to support rape victims or raise awareness about rape, don’t make a post like the one I’m quoting here. You do nothing to help the cause.
COURTNEY STANTON IS NOT THE ONE WHO GOT THE SHIRTS REMOVED.
She blogged about it, yes. She blogged about it very publicly. And she does happen to know some of the people who apparently talked privately with Mike, Jerry and Robert. But Mike himself was VERY clear that it wasn't some blogger who got them to put it down. It was people they respected raising reasonable concerns.
So flaming kirbybits on her blog, on Twitter? Not going to do a thing. You're just attacking a rape survivor for voicing her opinion and deciding, you know what, PAX isn't for her. Not using legal force, not organizing a boycott (even if she is/was participating in one), not leaving horse's heads in Mike's bed. Just voicing her opinion and staying away.
Do we need to get Wil Wheaton up in here?
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
So really the problem isn't just Mike and Jerry's rather blunt response: it's rape jokes in general, like the original comic that you said was fine. The point that I had made in a few paragraphs before but that I will now simply sum up is that if we carry the most reasonable arguments from both sides through to their conclusions, I think we come out on Penny Arcade's side and specifically on the side of the Dickwolf shirt.
People who take umbrage at the shirt and at the strip (but not at the strip where the Fruit Fucker molests Tycho's wife, or the one where Tycho is going to be raped by the TSA, or the customer raping robot) are, when you get down to it, one of the many people who form their own contingent of the joke police, a cadre that roams around the world telling humorists what it isn't okay to joke about. Rape is probably the most popular topic, followed by race, religion, sexism, and so on, but the sentiment is in my mind indefensible, especially when we come to rape, where the stigma is so big that many people feel completely unable to share their experiences or even report the rape.
Telling people that rape is so horrible that we can't even make jokes about it, even when we make jokes about genocide or torture or dead babies or whatever, is telling them that if they've been raped, they're never going to get over it, or at very least they'll never be able to make light of it.
Regardless, my personal problem is still not with The Sixth Slave -- which was funny and a rather good commentary on a common flaw in MMO design (I HATE quests like that, let me tell you) -- but with Mike and Jerry's response. Public mockery leading in to merchandising. I bet they did get angry e-mails over the Fruit Fucker at one point, but I don't remember them ever responding in a public venue the way they did to the dickwolves criticism. The shirts were the cherry on top of a poor-taste sundae.
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
I also don't see the original comic making "light" of rape: it's supposed to be a terrible thing which makes the situation the more ridiculous. Any sane person would free the sixth slave, but video games make us out to be very cold "heroes" and the comic deconstructs that.
And I don't think "getting over it" is some binary thing. I highly doubt a person is really capable of going back to a pre-rape mentality of life. Likely, you have good days and bad days. Just because they are a minority doesn't mean we should spite them with some very niche merchandise. Again: how many people are going to wear a dickwolf shirt in public all that often?
Ultimately, this is a situation and product that made a small subsection of readers feel bad. In some cases people that were victimized in the most cruel, despicable way imaginable. Those in control at PA were free to keep selling the shirt and they chose not to, because they didn't want to be or be seen as a company that thinks these concerns are frivolous (because they aren't, if you care about your fans).
I would defend their right to make that joke, all day erryday, but to respond to what was genuine, if misguided, criticism by belittling the argument and then creating and selling products with a related logo is probably not the adult way to respond. If they had kept the comic up, responded in news post and explained why the joke wasn't about or at the expense of rape, this would be a non-issue. If they had taken down the comic itself, I might think PA was kowtowing, but they didn't, and they aren't. They're backpedaling because their initial response was actually inappropriate. To paraphrase one of the people involved; these people are not American Greetings. They're not a national advocacy group, they are a subsection of fans.
But please, feel free to make bootleg Dickwolves shirts. Don't let the fact that it may actually hurt someone's feelings get in the way of you wearing a fucking t-shirt expressing someone else's joke. This is all very serious business.
So this is not the first case of the MJR trio doing minor, selective censorship. In the end, we can speculate as to why, we can espouse a zero-tolerance policy on censorship and damn anyone else that ever dares to veer from it, but it isn't new here and it is what it is.
to me this whole incident is like telling Duke University that women will not feel safe there unless they stop selling any merch about their Lacrosse team.
If lacrosse teams were fictional, and assembled for the sole purpose of raping people, you might be making a cogent point. If Duke released a piece of official media that portrayed the Blue Devil as some kind of rape monster, maybe that would be an analogous situation. But here you are talking about actual people in a real-world situation, and comparing it to a fictional creature primarily composed of dicks.
This is a terrible example because you are referring to an infamous scandal revolving around a much publicized false accusation. So no, removing the shirt is not like that at all. Try to use some common sense if you insist on weighing in on this, please.
Basically this.
There are times when standing on a point of principle is the right and honourable thing to do.
Other times it makes you look like a spiteful dick.
Guess which one this is.