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Dickwolves Tee missing from store?

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Posts

  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't really care about the "issue" behind this one way or the other, but it kind of would have been nice if there had been some sort of warning

    Like, "Hey, this is making some people uncomfortable so we're going to pull it from the store in a week, last chance" or something

    I was kind of planning on picking one up, and now I can't

    Maddoc on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2011
    For some reason, I find it humorous that the counter shirt supports RAINN - who is notorious for not providing and being in league with other orgs that deny services to transgender women in cases of rape.

    So a shirt that supports an imagined "rape culture" was taken down, and the shirt that supposedly counters it supports the actual continued bigotry and intolerance towards transgendered people. That is something amazing right there.

    FyreWulff on
  • suttreesuttree Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    For some reason, I find it humorous that the counter shirt supports RAINN
    http://kirbybits.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/
    ETA 01/25/2011: During the #MooreandMe Twitter protest, I was made aware of RAINN’s decision to partner with organizations that deny services to rape survivors who are transgender women. Since that’s, uh, not remotely okay, all money raised by the sale of the DSG t-shirts going forward will be donated to the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center. If I receive reports about denial of services from the BARCC, or if a national organization that doesn’t refuse services based on a survivor’s gender identity can be suggested, I will continue to update which organization receives funds raised from this project.

    suttree on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    japan wrote: »
    JohnHam wrote: »
    I love how many people are choosing Dickwolves Hill as their last stand against this monolithic "cadre" of people that wish to take away your right to make certain jokes.

    Basically this.

    There are times when standing on a point of principle is the right and honourable thing to do.

    Other times it makes you look like a spiteful dick.

    Guess which one this is.

    There is nothing wrong with a zero-tolerance attitude toward censorship. I wish everyone felt that way.

    I just think that we also have to be pragmatic. Mike and Jerry are human. Nobody wants to be harassed forever over a shirt. They don't lose as much taking it down as some people suggest - this isn't the beginning of the end of free speech on PA.

    I feel that both sides are being very disingenuous here.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2011
    suttree wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    For some reason, I find it humorous that the counter shirt supports RAINN
    http://kirbybits.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/
    ETA 01/25/2011: During the #MooreandMe Twitter protest, I was made aware of RAINN’s decision to partner with organizations that deny services to rape survivors who are transgender women. Since that’s, uh, not remotely okay, all money raised by the sale of the DSG t-shirts going forward will be donated to the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center. If I receive reports about denial of services from the BARCC, or if a national organization that doesn’t refuse services based on a survivor’s gender identity can be suggested, I will continue to update which organization receives funds raised from this project.

    Even in that case, money has already gone to RAINN ("raised by the sale of the shirts going forward"), so they've already fucked up permanently in my eyes. And that last sentence doesn't help them either, as they apparently want to put the effort into getting a shirt that hurt nobody pulled, but don't want to spend the time vetting the orgs they raise money for. Nobody should be giving those people money as their priorities are more about getting attention for their blog than LGBT rights.

    I've done charity fundraisers multiple times, and every time I vet the org up/down/sideways to make sure anyone they're connected to? I'm okay with. I don't just google for a charity and go "THAT ONE" and start pointing a paypal address at it.

    Human rights violated by dickwolves PA shirt: 0
    Human rights violated by counter-dickwolves shirt: >0

    FyreWulff on
  • DickWolvingtonDickWolvington Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    japan wrote: »
    JohnHam wrote: »
    I love how many people are choosing Dickwolves Hill as their last stand against this monolithic "cadre" of people that wish to take away your right to make certain jokes.

    Basically this.

    There are times when standing on a point of principle is the right and honourable thing to do.

    Other times it makes you look like a spiteful dick.

    Guess which one this is.

    Would you say that other times it makes you look like a spiteful dickwolf?

    DickWolvington on
  • Stupid Mr Whoopsie NameStupid Mr Whoopsie Name Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2011
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Even in that case, money has already gone to RAINN ("raised by the sale of the shirts going forward"), so they've already fucked up permanently in my eyes.

    This is a juvenile perspective to have, and brings nothing helpful to the table. Somebody admitted they had been wrong about something when it was brought to their attention, and acted accordingly.

    You should have the gumption to do the same regarding your post and the immediate correction following it.

    There's no axe to grind here, just let it go.

    Stupid Mr Whoopsie Name on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2011
    They supported the actual continued opression of LGBT rights with actual real dollars, PA never did at any point. The post remains. For the sole reason that the "fix" was simply quickchanging to another organization and then typing immediately after that "If you guys find anything wrong with this org, tell us so we can try to cover up for it again." At no point has it been indicated that the money that RAINN recieved from their early sales has been asked to be returned. So as it stands, anti-LGBT people directly benefitted from a sale run by a pro-LGBT blog. This is a fact that has not changed in the slightest.

    They don't care about the actual issue at hand, they just wanted the attention.

    It is not a juvenile perspective in any respect to call them out on their hypocrisy.

    FyreWulff on
  • Stupid Mr Whoopsie NameStupid Mr Whoopsie Name Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm not going to argue it with you. Drop the condemnation shtick or egress from the conversation.

    Stupid Mr Whoopsie Name on
  • YallYall Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Wish I hadn't hesitated, and ordered one.

    Yall on
  • RandehRandeh Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Telling people that rape is so horrible that we can't even make jokes about it, even when we make jokes about genocide or torture or dead babies or whatever, is telling them that if they've been raped, they're never going to get over it, or at very least they'll never be able to make light of it.

    You're exactly right here. I know a few rape survivors myself, on both sides of the "rape can be / is never funny". But rather than drag their stories around just to prove a point, I'll use my own:

    I haven't been raped, but I have been called to testify as a rebuttal witness for the prosecution in a child rape case where I got to have my character attacked by a defense attorney for an hour and a half. It's not the same thing, but it's the closest I've ever come. But this story isn't even about me really...

    The defense had apparently printed out a list of my internet aliases, MySpace page (yeah it was a while back), and pretty much anything they could find about me and forced me to read some of the more heinous jokes I made in front of my family and friends, then I got to listen to insinuations that I was an avid pornographer who INTRODUCED my then underage friend to pornography thus enticing him to seduce the defendant (10 years older than he) while they mentioned my infant daughter in the next breath.

    If I hadn't been staring at a whiteboard, pointed at the jury, where the defense attorney had written "Dr (?) Randalous - ALIAS!" ... I would have lost my proverbial S. But I knew that if they were going to propose my various forum handles and Pyramid Head references were some back alley license to perform illicit pornographic surgeries, the prosecution's case was just fine.

    But before I could enjoy that... when you're called to the stand they sequester you, so it was just me and my friend sitting in a side-room of a legal library for two hours. If you want to talk about rape survivor's shame, I may not know it first hand but I looked directly into it that day. I was dragged from a college course 30 miles away to come here so I could be basically insulted and likened to a pedophile by a desperate attorney for his sake. And I was glad to do it, but I could tell what he felt was just a deep and overwhelming form of shame that I will probably never know.

    So I made a joke, "Man..." I said, "I really wish I hadn't listed my favorite websites as volcanal.com." He laughed. I carried it on, "You think I'll get to meet Chris Hanssen? Think he'd sign my chest?" He laughed. Then he told a joke that I really don't even want to type out here and I blew snot and spit all over a copy of Texas Real Estate Law Volume IV. We spent that entire time going back and forth and cackling wildly. We left the courtroom smiling. I wasn't when I came out.

    I went and sat down in the lobby, shaking, mainly from anger as well as embarrassment. They made me read my dick jokes to the jury - which I'd normally be proud of, but I couldn't help thinking I might be hurting the case against this guy somehow and that made me feel so disgusted. At the defense and myself. His parents came up to me and hugged me, thanked me for coming out, and asked me what I'd done. I told them about the trial (they sat outside because they couldn't bear hearing the details) but they stopped me. "No, before... when you were laughing." I really didn't know how to explain it. "Oh... jokes," I said. They asked me to come over and have dinner afterward because apparently that was the first time he'd smiled or laughed since legal proceedings began four months ago.

    I shared this story because I want people to realize that blatantly offensive humor can work both ways: it can cause harm, surely, but it can also be used to heal. When you treat offensive humor as being a mutually exclusive evil or good, you're doing harm to one or the other. The truth is that it's both...

    Again I'll link to the "Is A Rape Joke Ever Funny?" article written by a rape survivor. She used humor to help her through her situation. She also resents people who treated her differently because it was rape. She and I (and apparently TychoCelchuuu here) think that by making rape this subject beyond reproach you're hurting people who just want to move past it.

    Like I said I have friends on both sides. Some can't stand any rape joke reference as it drags up painful memories that I doubt they'll ever get past. Others use humor as a weapon against those who would try and treat them like some damaged broken husk of a person for the rest of their lives. I try to respect each persons' decision and treat them like individuals which is my usual approach when dealing with people - I also try and cut back on the hardcore sex anecdotes when around my mother, for example.

    Everyone has jokes they don't find funny. But nobody has the right to tell another rape survivor that they can't use humor to deal with their trauma, even another rape survivor. Nobody has the right to classify subjects as "untouchable" for satire. Nobody has the right to tell someone how to deal with a personal experience.

    That is why this is a mistake.

    Randeh on
    Finally, gaming blog that's not about games. You're welcome, internet.
  • RandehRandeh Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    JohnHam wrote: »
    But please, feel free to make bootleg Dickwolves shirts. Don't let the fact that it may actually hurt someone's feelings get in the way of you wearing a fucking t-shirt expressing someone else's joke. This is all very serious business.

    Well a t-shirt that contains all of Penny-Arcade's rape joke comics, including the ones where Tycho's raped "through his pants" by TSA, FF rapes one of their wife's ears, where AT&T builds a robot to rape it's customers, where Tycho talks about not raping anymore dogs, etc (there's more)... replete with a definition of hypocrisy might not be legible...

    The removal of the t-shirt isn't a win for rape survivors in any way. It's a win for people who want to go to PAX, read the comic, pay these people money, and not be reminded that they're being hypocritical so they don't actually have to stand by their own convictions.

    You wanna know how you prove it? How to fix this entire debacle and make as many people happy as possible?

    Sell the Dickwolves shirt and donate all the funds to rape survivor charities, including the money made from selling all shirts up and until this point. This will help undo some of the PR damage and prove the point that they're standing by a joke, not supporting rape in any way. This way, people who actually have a Dickwolves t-shirt won't be made to feel like they're somehow propagating rape culture for supporting / defending Mike and Jerry by buying the shirt following their rebuttal comic - they're actually donating their money to help rape survivors. They're heroes. They're doing more than the people who complained and did nothing..

    Problem solved.

    Randeh on
    Finally, gaming blog that's not about games. You're welcome, internet.
  • ProfessorCirnoProfessorCirno Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    As others have already said, the thing is, the problem isn't with the initial strip.

    Ok I used to play WoW, I get the joke, chuckled a bit, and moved in.

    But when people came forth and said "Look, this is really, really uncomfortable, we'd like you to stop," rather then go "Whoops our bad" or even "Well at Penny Arcade we make rape jokes, it's how we roll," they decided to take it several steps farther.

    The problem is when you make a second strip that comes down to little more then "Hey, fuck those guys."

    The problem is so much deeper when you then merchandise a shirt and flag that are all built around "Hey, fuck those guys."

    When you purposefully ostracize a part of your fanbase - and when that fan base is people who had issues with a rape joke - and you mock them, and you merchandise mocking them, and you hold them out for everyone else to mock then, and you do it all because they had the audacity to say "We're not comfortable with it," you've gone into Prick Territory.

    What makes taking down the shirts horrible is the message that went with it - "The big bad insensitive people are making us do this, but I say wear it loud and proud." There still hasn't been any comment or any show that the guys at PA have recognized that people had a legit problem. Instead we have Gabe saying the big bad rape victims made him take the T-shirt down, but it's cool, he'll be wearing his with pride at the same convention he's claiming he wants people to feel safe at.

    Look. You made a rape joke. People got hurt. Ok, this isn't new. As you say, some people will always be offended. And it's your right to make rape jokes and make people feel uncomfortable if you choose - you've done it before! But rather then put on adult pants and accept that making a rape joke will make some people upset, you launched into super defensive mode and started blaming them for it.

    ProfessorCirno on
  • ProfessorCirnoProfessorCirno Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Randeh wrote: »
    JohnHam wrote: »
    But please, feel free to make bootleg Dickwolves shirts. Don't let the fact that it may actually hurt someone's feelings get in the way of you wearing a fucking t-shirt expressing someone else's joke. This is all very serious business.

    Well a t-shirt that contains all of Penny-Arcade's rape joke comics, including the ones where Tycho's raped "through his pants" by TSA, FF rapes one of their wife's ears, where AT&T builds a robot to rape it's customers, where Tycho talks about not raping anymore dogs, etc (there's more)... replete with a definition of hypocrisy might not be legible...

    The removal of the t-shirt isn't a win for rape survivors in any way. It's a win for people who want to go to PAX, read the comic, pay these people money, and not be reminded that they're being hypocritical so they don't actually have to stand by their own convictions.

    But that's not what hypocritical means. What happened was that someone found this thing uncomfortable when they didn't find other things uncomfortable. That's not "hypocritical" in the slightest.

    Can we not go into the hilariously flawed idea that one must hate ALL JOKES in order to feel uncomfortable by one?

    ProfessorCirno on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited January 2011
    This isn't a place for debate, especially if you're unable to remain civil.

    Tube on
  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm just not sure how the removal of the t-shirts is supposed to make anybody feel more safe at PAX. Guess what? You'll still be surrounded by a ton of nerds that like a comic that occasionally makes a rape joke. And you have been every other time you've gone to PAX.

    All removing the shirt does is disappoint many customers who would have liked to buy one.

    Shorn Scrotum Man on
    steam_sig.png
  • RandehRandeh Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Randeh wrote: »
    JohnHam wrote: »
    But please, feel free to make bootleg Dickwolves shirts. Don't let the fact that it may actually hurt someone's feelings get in the way of you wearing a fucking t-shirt expressing someone else's joke. This is all very serious business.

    Well a t-shirt that contains all of Penny-Arcade's rape joke comics, including the ones where Tycho's raped "through his pants" by TSA, FF rapes one of their wife's ears, where AT&T builds a robot to rape it's customers, where Tycho talks about not raping anymore dogs, etc (there's more)... replete with a definition of hypocrisy might not be legible...

    The removal of the t-shirt isn't a win for rape survivors in any way. It's a win for people who want to go to PAX, read the comic, pay these people money, and not be reminded that they're being hypocritical so they don't actually have to stand by their own convictions.

    But that's not what hypocritical means. What happened was that someone found this thing uncomfortable when they didn't find other things uncomfortable. That's not "hypocritical" in the slightest.

    Can we not go into the hilariously flawed idea that one must hate ALL JOKES in order to feel uncomfortable by one?

    Hypocrite:
    1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    Actually that's exactly what it means. If you're glad they removed the shirt, but still visit the site and want to attend PAX, you're paying money to people who stand by the original joke and follow up comment/strip (both of which they still support) that makes the shirt offensive. Otherwise it'd just be a shirt about wolves with x-amount of dicks, where x >=1.

    It's rare, but I think Webster's got my back this time.

    And to treat something as untouchable by satire is to denounce satire's place in society. That's the difference between not finding a joke funny and telling the entire world that the joke is not allowed somehow because it cannot and is never funny to anyone. That is contrary to the entire idea of satire. That's actually more like a police state, but for humor.

    But if we're talking about hilariously flawed ideas how about the one where some people's obviously negative reaction to a joke negates the possibility that other people might still somehow be allowed to find it funny without being horrible monsters.

    Randeh on
    Finally, gaming blog that's not about games. You're welcome, internet.
  • ProfessorCirnoProfessorCirno Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Randeh wrote: »
    Randeh wrote: »
    JohnHam wrote: »
    But please, feel free to make bootleg Dickwolves shirts. Don't let the fact that it may actually hurt someone's feelings get in the way of you wearing a fucking t-shirt expressing someone else's joke. This is all very serious business.

    Well a t-shirt that contains all of Penny-Arcade's rape joke comics, including the ones where Tycho's raped "through his pants" by TSA, FF rapes one of their wife's ears, where AT&T builds a robot to rape it's customers, where Tycho talks about not raping anymore dogs, etc (there's more)... replete with a definition of hypocrisy might not be legible...

    The removal of the t-shirt isn't a win for rape survivors in any way. It's a win for people who want to go to PAX, read the comic, pay these people money, and not be reminded that they're being hypocritical so they don't actually have to stand by their own convictions.

    But that's not what hypocritical means. What happened was that someone found this thing uncomfortable when they didn't find other things uncomfortable. That's not "hypocritical" in the slightest.

    Can we not go into the hilariously flawed idea that one must hate ALL JOKES in order to feel uncomfortable by one?

    Hypocrite:
    1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    Actually that's exactly what it means. If you're glad they removed the shirt, but still visit the site and want to attend PAX, you're paying money to people who stand by the original joke and follow up comment/strip (both of which they still support) that makes the shirt offensive. Otherwise it'd just be a shirt about wolves with x-amount of dicks, where x >=1.

    It's rare, but I think Webster's got my back this time.

    And to treat something as untouchable by satire is to denounce satire's place in society. That's the difference between not finding a joke funny and telling the entire world that the joke is not allowed somehow because it cannot and is never funny to anyone. That is contrary to the entire idea of satire. That's actually more like a police state, but for humor.

    But if we're talking about hilariously flawed ideas how about the one where some people's obviously negative reaction to a joke negates the possibility that other people might still somehow be allowed to find it funny without being horrible monsters.

    Didn't I literally just say that the problem wasn't in the first strip, though?

    I'll do it again: The problem isn't in the first strip.

    The problem is in the reaction to other people's criticisms.

    I'm not saying PA is just ALL JERKS ALL THE TIME. I mean come on, I think a lot of people are upset, are upset because they're seeing dudes they like and respect mocking them. Look at it this way: awhile back on PATV, they talked about Mike's PTSD. How even the smallest, strangest things can trigger it. How it was totally outside of your control. It showed a lot of sensitivity and awareness to very real problems that people face. Sensitivity and awareness of triggering weak spots and connections you have little to no control over.

    But then all this occurs. What happened? Did we just throw all that out the window?

    I feel like people keep trying to make the issue about the blogger and about the first strip, but that's never been where the issue sat. The issue is when your fans tell you "Hey, this makes me uncomfortable" and your reaction is to mock them, publically. And then to sell merchandising about it, mocking them even more. To pull the shirts not because you recognize that it's hurting your fans - the people that support you - but because "Well I guess you're upset over SOMETHING," and then to offer to blacklist them in the same post. The issue is when you see that your merchandising is hurting your fans, and your reaction is to boast on Twitter on how you'll be wearing it.

    The people who are most upset aren't the ones who hate PA, it's the people who were and/or are fans and now see the dudes who made the thing they love attacking them.

    ProfessorCirno on
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I keep hearing that they "sold merchandise to further mock people"

    pretty sure they started selling the dickwolf t-shirts because a shit-ton of people asked for them directly at PAX.

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    I keep hearing that they "sold merchandise to further mock people"

    pretty sure they started selling the dickwolf t-shirts because a shit-ton of people asked for them directly at PAX.

    People were asking for them pre-Pax, and the design was revealed at the show. They showed up on the store a month or two later because shirts take time to print.

    EvilBadman on
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I should note that Badman is fucking awesome
    XBL- Evil Badman; Steam- EvilBadman; Twitter - EvilBadman
  • CheyenneWayCheyenneWay Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    All this hub-bub about a guy that creates a show that deals with rape on a daily basis? What he does in his spare time is none of our business!

    CheyenneWay on
  • DissolutionDissolution Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So, will wearing the purchased Dickwolves shirt bar entrance to PAX Prime or PAX East?

    Additionally, will a home-made "Viva la Dickwolves" or other home-made Dickwolves shirt bar entrance?


    Because I TOTALLY am going to make one if not...

    Dissolution on
    Houk wrote: »
    Finally! A game that understands my desire for the inclusion of a jar of semen!
    PSN - Kog667 : DiRT 3 and Gran Turismo 5
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So, will wearing the purchased Dickwolves shirt bar entrance to PAX Prime or PAX East?

    I don't work for PA, so I can't give you a definite answer, but most likely not, considering this:
    @Cozmicaztaway I'll be wearing mine to PAX.
    about 23 hours ago via Tweetie for Mac in reply to Cozmicaztaway

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • suttreesuttree Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    So, will wearing the purchased Dickwolves shirt bar entrance to PAX Prime or PAX East?
    Additionally, will a home-made "Viva la Dickwolves" or other home-made Dickwolves shirt bar entrance?
    Because I TOTALLY am going to make one if not...

    Perhaps you would like to join me in my own t-shirt design plans:
    suttree wrote: »
    Dear Penny Arcade,

    I was very moved by the above suggestion
    PS9: The only thing that'd solve this would be to :
    - release a t-shirt of a dickwolf eating a phoenix.
    and so felt compelled to register and post in these forums.

    Indeed, I am working to design such a t-shirt along with several others:
    (1) A counter-T-shirt depicting a Phoenix bursting alien-style from the belly of a Dickwolf
    (2) A counter-counter-T-shirt with a Dickwolf defeating a Phoenix at ping-pong.
    and
    (3) A t-shirt of reconciliation marked with the image of the proverbial Dicklion having an ice-cool beverage with a Phoenix-Lamb hybrid.

    I would post these designs here, but I am most concerned about a t-shirt related arms race we can ill-afford during these uncertain economic times.

    I look forward to your correspondence - A Fan.

    suttree on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Didn't I literally just say that the problem wasn't in the first strip, though?

    I'll do it again: The problem isn't in the first strip.

    The problem is in the reaction to other people's criticisms.

    [Followed by a bunch of good stuff.]

    And to reiterate my point, while you're correct that Mike and Jerry have been and are continuing to be fairly huge silly geese to the people with grievances (although I would argue that this is out of ignorance about the nature of the grievance, and not because they're massive dickwolves), that's not really enough to make us all come to the conclusion that the dickwolf shirts should be pulled. I suppose if we accept your contention that the shirts themselves are designed to mock, then yeah, I guess those would be bad shirts, but it seems like the shirts were made because "dickwolf" is a funny word.

    The response comic was dumb and wrong (it was also funny, though) and it really looks like it's because they don't understand why someone would have a problem with the dickwolf thing. You do have to admit, however, that from their perspective, they've been making jokes about horrific, heinous crimes for years, including multiple previous jokes about rape, and suddenly out of the blue, someone starts saying that their dickwolf comic makes them complicit with rape. Now, clearly they hate rape because they're decent human beings, so from their perspective they've just been branded the next worst thing after rapists just because they made a joke they've made 10 times before. I'm not saying their response was the most sensitive thing in the world (indeed, I agree with you that they missed the point and in doing so were horrendously offensive), but what are we talking about here? We're talking about whether Penny Arcade fans should be able to buy a shirt that says "Dickwolves" on it, or if that's tantamount to saying "I hate people who have been raped."

    And frankly, you have a fairly hefty way to go if you want to make that argument. So far you've just said a lot of stuff that sounds right about how Mike and Jerry haven't handled this well, and a lot of stuff that sounds wrong about how rape jokes are bad, even though you spend most of your time saying that you actually aren't saying that. Really, though, the upshot is this: the Dickwolf shirt was fine, and pulling it, if it means anything at all, means that the wrong sentiment prevailed.

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • stinkaystinkay Registered User new member
    edited January 2011
    Randeh wrote: »
    JohnHam wrote: »
    You wanna know how you prove it? How to fix this entire debacle and make as many people happy as possible?

    Sell the Dickwolves shirt and donate all the funds to rape survivor charities, including the money made from selling all shirts up and until this point. This will help undo some of the PR damage and prove the point that they're standing by a joke, not supporting rape in any way. This way, people who actually have a Dickwolves t-shirt won't be made to feel like they're somehow propagating rape culture for supporting / defending Mike and Jerry by buying the shirt following their rebuttal comic - they're actually donating their money to help rape survivors. They're heroes. They're doing more than the people who complained and did nothing..

    Problem solved.

    this is by far the best idea here. <3

    (this would appease any sane person, and do some good to boot)

    stinkay on
    stinkay.png
  • BinarySecondBinarySecond Registered User new member
    edited January 2011
    I feel that people missed the point of the whole dick wolves comic. It's not that rape is funny and should be used wantonly in comics. It's about what it would be like if quests in MMO's like WoW were real and how myopic some of the goals can be. It's just an observation on how the questing systems work and how they goals can be quick funny when you consider what's actually being done.
    It makes me sad that people miss the funny in bits like this, when I first read the comic I had an "oh yeah, those quests are pretty dumb" moment, I didn't laugh because I was glad the characters got raped. It baffles me how people can miss the point of something so much.

    BinarySecond on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    edit: removed to avoid stirring up a thing with a poorly thought out post

    MKR on
  • Stupid Mr Whoopsie NameStupid Mr Whoopsie Name Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2011
    MKR, you are making a awful lot of presumptions in that post, which you should probably hazard not to do.

    And by "probably" I mean, "Please don't."

    Stupid Mr Whoopsie Name on
  • DogEightDogEight Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I think imagining the inherent nature and behavior of an imaginary species mentioned in one panel of one strip is ridiculously presumptuous.

    Isn't that the message of the second strip and the reason why many will now wear and reproduce dickwolves merchandise?

    Officially flesh out their character so people can't assume the entire species are serial rapists. That way, this nonsense and the logical fallacy that started it can be over and it can just be a funny word.

    DogEight on
  • KickhopperKickhopper Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    This post:
    So, will wearing the purchased Dickwolves shirt bar entrance to PAX Prime or PAX East?

    Additionally, will a home-made "Viva la Dickwolves" or other home-made Dickwolves shirt bar entrance?


    Because I TOTALLY am going to make one if not...

    And this one:
    suttree wrote: »
    So, will wearing the purchased Dickwolves shirt bar entrance to PAX Prime or PAX East?
    Additionally, will a home-made "Viva la Dickwolves" or other home-made Dickwolves shirt bar entrance?
    Because I TOTALLY am going to make one if not...

    Perhaps you would like to join me in my own t-shirt design plans:
    suttree wrote: »
    Dear Penny Arcade,

    I was very moved by the above suggestion
    PS9: The only thing that'd solve this would be to :
    - release a t-shirt of a dickwolf eating a phoenix.
    and so felt compelled to register and post in these forums.

    Indeed, I am working to design such a t-shirt along with several others:
    (1) A counter-T-shirt depicting a Phoenix bursting alien-style from the belly of a Dickwolf
    (2) A counter-counter-T-shirt with a Dickwolf defeating a Phoenix at ping-pong.
    and
    (3) A t-shirt of reconciliation marked with the image of the proverbial Dicklion having an ice-cool beverage with a Phoenix-Lamb hybrid.

    I would post these designs here, but I am most concerned about a t-shirt related arms race we can ill-afford during these uncertain economic times.

    I look forward to your correspondence - A Fan.

    Really illustrate what this years PAX will be like thanks to this controversy. Quick question, would either of you have worn the shirt if it was still in the store and in the back of your mind?

    Kickhopper on
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't understand how throwing (some) rape survivors under the proverbial bus for the sake of a novelty t-shirt is supposed to promote the notion that gamers are good people.

    I think the success of Child's Play, the structure of PAX, and the narratives of PATV demonstrate that there are lots of people invested in that idea. Maybe we should try not to undermine it by being or appearing mean-spirited and petty.

    Grid System on
  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't understand how throwing (some) rape survivors under the proverbial bus for the sake of a novelty t-shirt is supposed to promote the notion that gamers are good people.

    I think the success of Child's Play, the structure of PAX, and the narratives of PATV demonstrate that there are lots of people invested in that idea. Maybe we should try not to undermine it by being or appearing mean-spirited and petty.
    I think this is one of the more sensible things I've heard in this thread from either side. Sadly I don't think it's going to quell the argument, but thank you nonetheless.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't understand how throwing (some) rape survivors under the proverbial bus for the sake of a novelty t-shirt is supposed to promote the notion that gamers are good people.

    I think the success of Child's Play, the structure of PAX, and the narratives of PATV demonstrate that there are lots of people invested in that idea. Maybe we should try not to undermine it by being or appearing mean-spirited and petty.

    The only way this makes sense is for you to assume at the outset that people in favor of the Dickwolf shirt are throwing rape survivors under the bus, which as I see it is the exact question that is at issue. If we had already settled that the shirt is a horrifically offensive travesty then I'm not sure anyone would have bothered to ask about its disappearance from the store in the first place.

    If we want to show that "gamers are good people" we have to agree on what good people do, and at least from my point of view, "good people" don't treat rape like it's something so horrific that even to joke about it is to forever ruin anyone unfortunate enough to have been raped. That's treating them like damaged goods and it's this kind of attitude that makes rape such a problem in the first place. We build the stigma up to an almost intolerable degree when we say we can't even make a joke about the fake rape of a fake person in a fake video game.

    TychoCelchuuu on
  • daegandaegan Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm frustrated that all of this has to happen before my first PAX.

    I'm all for people getting to make whatever joke they want, and thinking whatever is funny that they want, whether it pisses me off or not.

    To be honest, the only thing that I want to come out of this is a list of games that the people who organized this "silent boycott" that has been spoken of have worked on. Jerry and Mike have always made the thing that they wanted to make, and would never encourage another artist to not make the thing they want to make. It upsets me that these individuals are okay enough with their position to withhold their support, but not okay enough to come out so that the community can choose if they want to purchase the work of someone who doesn't feel an artist should be able to say what they want.

    daegan on
  • RandehRandeh Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    The problem isn't in the first strip.

    The problem is in the reaction to other people's criticisms.

    ... I mean come on, I think a lot of people are upset, are upset because they're seeing dudes they like and respect mocking them.

    You're misdirecting: if there wasn't a problem with the first strip, the second strip would never have existed. And you're also creating a magical group of people who weren't offended by the first, but somehow offended by the second... which I'll argue either:
    A) doesn't exist or
    B) is filled wholly with hypocrites.

    I can prove this by asking a single question:
    Why is the shirt offensive?

    Option 1: The shirt represented a rape joke
    Dickwolves were from the first comic, not the second. So if the joke wasn't the problem, the the image of the Dickwolf as being a representation of that joke isn't a problem. So I'd argue that someone who was against the shirt but alleges the problem was the second comic, not the first, cannot exist if the shirt represented a rape joke.

    Option 2: The shirt represented Mike and Jerry's "mockery" of those offended
    The only other option is alleging that the Dickwolves t-shirt is offensive because it reminds people Mike and Jerry are unapologetically making comics about rape ... which didn't go away at all by removing the shirt. All that happened is that they're just not reminded of PA's stance (which has not changed - the comics remain). And these people - the ones that wanted the shirt gone only for this reason - are just hypocrites in the same way as someone claims they "only buy American" because they can't see the Made in China symbols on the things they own.

    If you want to properly contextualize the second comic... keep in mind that they were called rape supporters and that they were contributing to rape culture. They didn't mock people who were uncomfortable. They mocked people who were alleging that their initial comic was going to somehow increase rape. I'll use Jerry's post here:
    Reaction to Wednesday's comic fell, conveniently for my purpose, into two camps: those who found a phrase like "raped by dickwolves" a stunning return to form, and those who felt that we were somehow advocating the actual rape of human beings. It sounds as though we've already satisfied the first camp, but an effort should certainly be made to assuage the latter.

    So if there's a subgroup of people who were just uncomfortable with the first comic, but didn't allege that Mike and Jerry were contributing to rape culture, then those people logically can't be offended by the second comic because it wasn't directed at them?

    That's the one thing I'd drive home if I could. The rebuttal comic mentioned two groups: one that liked the comic and one that called them rape supporters. If you weren't in those two categories you were not mentioned at all by the second comic.

    Taking Jerry's post and the text of the comic completely out of context doesn't justify you being "offended" - it just proves how desperate you are for a cause of the day and attention. The whole Dickwolves controversy is so far detached from any form of what actually happened that when I explained it to some people who just joined the debate, they were honestly just confused as to why it ever started.
    Look at it this way: awhile back on PATV, they talked about Mike's PTSD. How even the smallest, strangest things can trigger it. How it was totally outside of your control. It showed a lot of sensitivity and awareness to very real problems that people face. Sensitivity and awareness of triggering weak spots and connections you have little to no control over.

    You're ignoring personal responsibility. If you have traumatic experience with cattle, perhaps a ranch is not the best place for you to be. If you're offended by rape jokes then clearly Penny-Arcade (along with the majority of the internet and 100% of Xbox Live) is not the place for you. It's not up to the entirety of the internet to make sure you don't find something on it you don't like so that you never have to feel offended - that's not how anything in the entire world works, ever actually.

    Of these people who were offended... how do you feel about the Jesus jokes? It's only okay to mock Christianity for these people because that doesn't offend them. You think Mike and Jerry don't get letter about that sort of thing? They just did an atheist comic over Christmas and acknowledged they got feedback that necessitated a response.

    So the message is that if you're a Christian, you're fair game, but if you don't think rape is funny, Mike and Jerry and Penny-Arcade must be made to come to a grinding halt and concede to your demands? They've made jokes about orphans, the homeless, alcoholics, murder victims, gang bangers, etc... all of which I'm assuming are less important than people who don't think rape jokes are funny / were made at Jerry's response when taken totally out of context.

    At that point you're just the kid who laughs at jokes at everyone else's expense, but can't take a joke about themselves. And that makes you a hypocrite.

    Randeh on
    Finally, gaming blog that's not about games. You're welcome, internet.
  • RandehRandeh Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    stinkay wrote: »
    Randeh wrote: »
    You wanna know how you prove it? How to fix this entire debacle and make as many people happy as possible?

    Sell the Dickwolves shirt and donate all the funds to rape survivor charities, including the money made from selling all shirts up and until this point. This will help undo some of the PR damage and prove the point that they're standing by a joke, not supporting rape in any way.

    This way, people who actually have a Dickwolves t-shirt won't be made to feel like they're somehow propagating rape culture for supporting / defending Mike and Jerry by buying the shirt following their rebuttal comic - they're actually donating their money to help rape survivors. They're heroes. They're doing more than the people who complained and did nothing.

    Problem solved.

    this is by far the best idea here. <3

    (this would appease any sane person, and do some good to boot)

    They should hire me for PR. I thought of that the day I read the rebuttal comic. The last thing they should ever do beyond that point is back out on the shirt - people bought the shirt to defend them. Backpedaling from the shirt is backpedaling away from people who stuck up for them.

    Randeh on
    Finally, gaming blog that's not about games. You're welcome, internet.
  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Randeh wrote: »
    They should hire me for PR. I thought of that the day I read the rebuttal comic. The last thing they should ever do beyond that point is back out on the shirt - people bought the shirt to defend them. Backpedaling from the shirt is backpedaling away from people who stuck up for them.
    Personally, I thought (and suggested in e-mail) that they should have done Don't Be A Dickwolf shirts with the same kind of deal: they find a fully inclusive rape crisis organization and donate some or all of the profits. There still would have been some people upset, but I think it would have been a smaller crowd.

    And preferably Werewolf Wil Wheaton would be the one saying it.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't understand how throwing (some) rape survivors under the proverbial bus for the sake of a novelty t-shirt is supposed to promote the notion that gamers are good people.

    I think the success of Child's Play, the structure of PAX, and the narratives of PATV demonstrate that there are lots of people invested in that idea. Maybe we should try not to undermine it by being or appearing mean-spirited and petty.

    The only way this makes sense is for you to assume at the outset that people in favor of the Dickwolf shirt are throwing rape survivors under the bus, which as I see it is the exact question that is at issue.
    I don't understand how it's at issue. Unless you believe that this newspost contains lies, you should grant that there are people who would suffer real psychological distress related to a prior traumatic life event from being exposed to the Dickwolves shirt. If you grant that, then to favour the shirt over their pain is throwing them under the bus. If you don't grant that, then you still throw them under the bus by presuming to know better than they what causes them pain.

    It's just a silly shirt, people. Our lives are not so impoverished by its absence. If giving it up will make people who have already been hurt feel a little more at home in a community of otherwise like-minded people, wouldn't it be decent and kind of us to do that one little thing for them?

    Grid System on
  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I don't understand how throwing (some) rape survivors under the proverbial bus for the sake of a novelty t-shirt is supposed to promote the notion that gamers are good people.

    I think the success of Child's Play, the structure of PAX, and the narratives of PATV demonstrate that there are lots of people invested in that idea. Maybe we should try not to undermine it by being or appearing mean-spirited and petty.

    The only way this makes sense is for you to assume at the outset that people in favor of the Dickwolf shirt are throwing rape survivors under the bus, which as I see it is the exact question that is at issue.
    I don't understand how it's at issue. Unless you believe that this newspost contains lies, you should grant that there are people who would suffer real psychological distress related to a prior traumatic life event from being exposed to the Dickwolves shirt. If you grant that, then to favour the shirt over their pain is throwing them under the bus. If you don't grant that, then you still throw them under the bus by presuming to know better than they what causes them pain.

    It's just a silly shirt, people. Our lives are not so impoverished by its absence. If giving it up will make people who have already been hurt feel a little more at home in a community of otherwise like-minded people, wouldn't it be decent and kind of us to do that one little thing for them?

    Have you seen the t-shirt?

    Unless you're either a fan or part of the rape culture brigade you wouldn't know it was spawned from a joke that happens to mention rape as part of the setup.

    You will not scar random rape victims while walking down the street in that shirt.

    Shorn Scrotum Man on
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