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Dickwolves Tee missing from store?

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Posts

  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Have you seen the t-shirt?

    Unless you're either a fan or part of the rape culture brigade you wouldn't know it was spawned from a joke that happens to mention rape as part of the setup.

    You will not scar random rape victims while walking down the street in that shirt.
    No, but you will carry an incredibly painful, drawn-out conflict into PAX, and maybe that goes a bit against the spirit of community.

    Laughing at the original strip doesn't make you a bad person. Hell, I laughed at it, so if it does, I'll see you all in Hell. Liking the shirt doesn't make you a bad person. But this fight...there's still a lot of resentment simmering on both sides. And I'd really love it if everyone just laid down their arms for PAX, y'know?

    If I knew people were going to be cool about this, I wouldn't feel the need to wear my Dickwolves Survivors Guild shirt (bought only after the switch to BARCC, for the record). But since people are planning to flood the con with Dickwolves shirts and at least some of them aren't doing it solely because they love free speech...yeah. I kind of feel like I have to, just so PAX fandom doesn't look like an antagonistic monolith to anyone. No, I'm sure that's not everyone's intent. But the message isn't great.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Randeh wrote: »
    Lots of words on the third page.

    In my own mind I was pretty pro-Dickwolves but I didn't really care about the whole "we're not selling the shirt" thing because it seemed like either way it's not a big deal, but this post basically convinced me. I'm still not sure it's a big deal, but to the degree that anyone is right in this whole affair, I'd say it's the people who think like Randeh does. The jokes are the jokes, and if they're okay, they're okay, and pulling the shirts can only cause more harm in terms of conceding the argument while maintaining that PA is right and making Dickwolf shirt defenders (who are apparently still right?) look like silly geese.

    My first thoughts were that a bunch of extremly thin skinned people over reacted, and that the PA staff chose the path of least resitence for reasons Mike outlined in his news post. And fair enough too, it's their business, they call the shots for what ever reasons seem appropriate to them.

    But Randehs post made a lot of sense. In hindsight the ideal solution would have been to completly ignore the people complaining and at some point down the line, when no one cares anymore, to pull the shirt out of the PA store. I mean PA must have some process for cycling old products out their stock line right?

    Really people who are this thin skinned cannot be satisfied, it's pointless to try and will only make them ask for more in the future. It's people like kirbybits that make feminism seem stupid, and thats a real shame.

    I mean I think it's terrible kirbybits was raped but this doesn't give her the right to try and sanitise the world of things she finds offensive. Nor does it give her the right to speak on behalf of all sexual assault victims. Also call me crazy but isn't putting warnings for rape flashback triggers in everything containing references to rape in itself a rape flashback trigger by her own definition of a rape flashback trigger? She lost what little credibility she had in her moronic diatribe about Mikes news post.

    Some people need to accept that they are a minority, the world will not change to suit them, they need change to adapt to the world. Pandering to their asinine demands won't accomplish that.

    Casual on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Man internet, stop getting mad about dickwolves.

    I feel this is decision is going to put the spotlight on the whole thing and neither side is going to feel real comfortable at PAX. Maybe just not making a statement about it would have been better.

    This might get to the point where you WILL have to ban dickwolf shirts and custom dickwolf (like the Dickwolf survivors guild) wear to PAX if it's gonna lead to damn protests.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    All this hub-bub about a guy that creates a show that deals with rape on a daily basis? What he does in his spare time is none of our business!

    QgvDG.png

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • JohnHamJohnHam Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Casual wrote: »
    My first thoughts were that a bunch of extremly thin skinned people over reacted, and that the PA staff chose the path of least resitence for reasons Mike outlined in his news post. And fair enough too, it's their business, they call the shots for what ever reasons seem appropriate to them.

    But Randehs post made a lot of sense. In hindsight the ideal solution would have been to completly ignore the people complaining and at some point down the line, when no one cares anymore, to pull the shirt out of the PA store. I mean PA must have some process for cycling old products out their stock line right?

    In what way is that an ideal solution? Usually in such a situation an "ideal" would satisfy (or come as close as possible to satisfying) both of those who disagree. I fail to see how the above course of action constitutes an ideal for anyone but those who want to buy Dickwolves shirts.
    Casual wrote: »
    Really people who are this thin skinned cannot be satisfied, it's pointless to try and will only make them ask for more in the future. It's people like kirbybits that make feminism seem stupid, and thats a real shame.

    I mean I think it's terrible kirbybits was raped but this doesn't give her the right to try and sanitise the world of things she finds offensive. Nor does it give her the right to speak on behalf of all sexual assault victims. Also call me crazy but isn't putting warnings for rape flashback triggers in everything containing references to rape in itself a rape flashback trigger by her own definition of a rape flashback trigger? She lost what little credibility she had in her moronic diatribe about Mikes news post.

    Some people need to accept that they are a minority, the world will not change to suit them, they need change to adapt to the world. Pandering to their asinine demands won't accomplish that.

    As a speaker at PAX I think she is about as supremely qualified to discuss her feelings on this situation as anyone could possibly be. Nobody can claim to speak for an entire group, obviously, but I've not seen anything that indicates kirbybits said that.

    At no point did this kirbybits person attempt to "sanitize the world" of something they disliked, they voiced a real concern to a company who organizes an event at which they were scheduled to publicly appear. If I had a serious disagreement with any organization I probably would voice those concerns before issuing tacit approval by participating.

    I do not want to be the guy banging the drum for this person, I think the notion of "rape culture" is ridiculously overblown, but this post just smells wrong to me. I'm sure that you are not, in any way, trying to say "rape victims should just stop complaining", but I see shades of it, and it's depressing.

    If I owned this shirt, I would not wear it to PAX. My desire to express either my fondness for the joke (which is, as I've reiterated, a funny joke) or some vague statement about free speech is profoundly irrelevant when I consider that there's even a chance it could hurt someone's feelings, especially someone who was victimized in that way.

    JohnHam on
    signature.png

  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Trigger warnings are neither bad nor good. It's how you use them that is bad or good. I cannot condemn someone for having involuntary emotional reactions to stories of sexual assault or fuck even war movies.

    But if the mention of fictional animals in a mythical universe triggers you, you probably get triggered 5000 times a day and need serious medical help. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying it because the world will never be as sanitized as you need it to be to not be triggered. That's just not the way our civilization has ever worked.

    So yeah it's like movies; some need ratings so people can be warned beforehand that there's violence and gore and shit and some don't need shit because the material is so light that being triggered by it would be a sign of a person being in need of help, not the creator's callous disregard for his audience.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    As for the response comic well people tend to stand up for themselves when they are called things and the fact that Mike and Jerry chose to doesn't seem strange to me at all.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • LachrymiteLachrymite Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    My wife was extremely disappointed that she never got to buy a Dickwolves ladies style shirt.

    Lachrymite on
  • Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I doubt anybody would be truly "triggered" or whatever by the comic.

    But a being around a bunch of people wearing shirts rooting for a creature portrayed solely as a rapist? Being made uneasy by that is perfectly within reason.

    Agent Cooper on
  • HarryJolkinsHarryJolkins Registered User new member
    edited January 2011
    The only answer is to get some colored sharpies, a stencil, an appropriately colored t-shirt, and whip up some home made Dickwolves t-shirts in time for PAX.

    HarryJolkins on
  • TRIGGER_WARNINGTRIGGER_WARNING Registered User new member
    edited January 2011
    People like Themiscyra are being passive aggressive and disingenous. "Oh I think you're totally right, now that I've got what I wanted we should just stop discussing the issue". ProfessorCirno's "How awful, you people who don't think the shirt should have been removed all obviously hate rape victims and probably do a bit of rape on the side" is similarly insulting and an awful comment that misrepresents a huge swath of people and simultaneously accuses them of heinous crimes. If somebody went into this thread and simply said "YOU PEOPLE HATE RAPE VICTIMS AND LOVE RAPE" then they would be quietly removed - apparently wording your posts so that they are only passively aggressively allows hideous insults and accusations to just fly under the radar.

    The shirts shouldn't have been removed from the store, as taking people's feelings into account when doing practically anything results in you doing nothing, as somebody is always offended by what you post. I take offense when people dispute the essential and binary nature of gender, but I don't go around demanding that they stop selling shirts about it. If I did, and someone actually bowed down to me and did it, that is a clear strike against personal freedom and civil liberties.

    People who undergo dangerous and nasty events don't need to devolve into mewling crybabies - they need to improve themselves, rise to their challenges and overcome them. The correct answer to trauma is to "harden the fuck up", not to collapse into a mess and ruin the rest of your life. Some people, including me have gone through hideous and awful trauma that has had a long effect on the rest of their lives, and they've chosen to become better people as a result, and not let it control their life. One man was hit by an atomic bomb, twice, and I don't believe he ever campaigned to have nuclear bombs removed from fiction. People who have suffered gun wounds don't ask for people to remove guns from the media.

    Before people accuse me of not understanding the trauma involved, I actually am a survivor of abuse suffered during childhood. I'm not proud of it and I don't like bringing it up, but not actually bringing it up is an instant invalidation of my argument for some reason.

    TRIGGER_WARNING on
    “Brave, unconcerned, mocking violent – thus Wisdom wants us. She is a woman and always loves only a warrior.”
  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    This wasn't what I wanted. I'm not sorry the shirts are gone, but I'd rather Mike and Jerry had asked their fans not to wear the shirts to PAX, for the sake of community, and kept selling whatever the hell they wanted. The deeper we get into this, the more simply pulling the shirts from the store seems like a mistake, too.

    There were so many ways this could have gone. So many ways it could still go. We seem to be headed down a path that's going to taint one of the greatest cons on this planet, and THAT'S a damned shame.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Themiscyra wrote: »
    This wasn't what I wanted. I'm not sorry the shirts are gone, but I'd rather Mike and Jerry had asked their fans not to wear the shirts to PAX, for the sake of community, and kept selling whatever the hell they wanted. The deeper we get into this, the more simply pulling the shirts from the store seems like a mistake, too.

    There were so many ways this could have gone. So many ways it could still go. We seem to be headed down a path that's going to taint one of the greatest cons on this planet, and THAT'S a damned shame.

    Asking fans not to wear a particular shirt - especially one they continue to sell - is a thousand times worse than just pulling the shirt.

    Because they actually do control the content they sell. They can sell what they want, as long as it is legal, and they can also stop selling what they don't want to sell anymore at any given time. That's how it works.

    But outright banning clothing from their convention? If there was some kind of dress code in place already ("no shoes, no shirt, no service!") that would be one thing. But to ban one specific shirt at this point is a ludicrous idea. Particularly if they sold that shirt in the past. Particularly if they are still selling the shirt when they make that proclamation.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    JohnHam wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    My first thoughts were that a bunch of extremly thin skinned people over reacted, and that the PA staff chose the path of least resitence for reasons Mike outlined in his news post. And fair enough too, it's their business, they call the shots for what ever reasons seem appropriate to them.

    But Randehs post made a lot of sense. In hindsight the ideal solution would have been to completly ignore the people complaining and at some point down the line, when no one cares anymore, to pull the shirt out of the PA store. I mean PA must have some process for cycling old products out their stock line right?

    In what way is that an ideal solution? Usually in such a situation an "ideal" would satisfy (or come as close as possible to satisfying) both of those who disagree. I fail to see how the above course of action constitutes an ideal for anyone but those who want to buy Dickwolves shirts.
    Casual wrote: »
    Really people who are this thin skinned cannot be satisfied, it's pointless to try and will only make them ask for more in the future. It's people like kirbybits that make feminism seem stupid, and thats a real shame.

    I mean I think it's terrible kirbybits was raped but this doesn't give her the right to try and sanitise the world of things she finds offensive. Nor does it give her the right to speak on behalf of all sexual assault victims. Also call me crazy but isn't putting warnings for rape flashback triggers in everything containing references to rape in itself a rape flashback trigger by her own definition of a rape flashback trigger? She lost what little credibility she had in her moronic diatribe about Mikes news post.

    Some people need to accept that they are a minority, the world will not change to suit them, they need change to adapt to the world. Pandering to their asinine demands won't accomplish that.

    As a speaker at PAX I think she is about as supremely qualified to discuss her feelings on this situation as anyone could possibly be. Nobody can claim to speak for an entire group, obviously, but I've not seen anything that indicates kirbybits said that.

    At no point did this kirbybits person attempt to "sanitize the world" of something they disliked, they voiced a real concern to a company who organizes an event at which they were scheduled to publicly appear. If I had a serious disagreement with any organization I probably would voice those concerns before issuing tacit approval by participating.

    I do not want to be the guy banging the drum for this person, I think the notion of "rape culture" is ridiculously overblown, but this post just smells wrong to me. I'm sure that you are not, in any way, trying to say "rape victims should just stop complaining", but I see shades of it, and it's depressing.

    If I owned this shirt, I would not wear it to PAX. My desire to express either my fondness for the joke (which is, as I've reiterated, a funny joke) or some vague statement about free speech is profoundly irrelevant when I consider that there's even a chance it could hurt someone's feelings, especially someone who was victimized in that way.

    It's a complex issue that isn't going to be hashed out satisfactorily in this thread. Is it actually in the best interest of people with some form of PTSD to help them avoid triggers? Or is it actually more helpful if they are occasionally faced with them, in the hopes of getting past them? Or is the former good for some people and the latter good for other people? And despite all that, what is society's obligation to these people? Should we spend the energy trying to figure out what's best for these people, or should we just let things run their natural course, or what?

    Can anyone here sufficiently answer all of these questions? I doubt it. So I find it hard to swallow all the psychobabble on both sides of the equation here. People are just making blanket assumptions regarding the psychology of rape survivors and others with PTSD-type conditions, when nobody here is really qualified to comment.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    It is kind of upsetting that they took it down. It'd also be a pretty upsetting topic if it dealt with, you know, actual rape. It was an allegory, and people who got upset with it are the silliest of geese. Had it dealt with, you know, actual rape, then I'd have agreed.

    Do these people break down and protest publishers of dictionaries because it contains the word rape? I hope not. Is PA glorifying rape? No.

    I say put it back up, I have half a mind to make my own, sell it, and donate the money to child's play honestly.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • JohnHamJohnHam Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    People like Themiscyra are being passive aggressive and disingenous. "Oh I think you're totally right, now that I've got what I wanted we should just stop discussing the issue". ProfessorCirno's "How awful, you people who don't think the shirt should have been removed all obviously hate rape victims and probably do a bit of rape on the side" is similarly insulting and an awful comment that misrepresents a huge swath of people and simultaneously accuses them of heinous crimes. If somebody went into this thread and simply said "YOU PEOPLE HATE RAPE VICTIMS AND LOVE RAPE" then they would be quietly removed - apparently wording your posts so that they are only passively aggressively allows hideous insults and accusations to just fly under the radar.

    The shirts shouldn't have been removed from the store, as taking people's feelings into account when doing practically anything results in you doing nothing, as somebody is always offended by what you post. I take offense when people dispute the essential and binary nature of gender, but I don't go around demanding that they stop selling shirts about it. If I did, and someone actually bowed down to me and did it, that is a clear strike against personal freedom and civil liberties.

    People who undergo dangerous and nasty events don't need to devolve into mewling crybabies - they need to improve themselves, rise to their challenges and overcome them. The correct answer to trauma is to "harden the fuck up", not to collapse into a mess and ruin the rest of your life. Some people, including me have gone through hideous and awful trauma that has had a long effect on the rest of their lives, and they've chosen to become better people as a result, and not let it control their life. One man was hit by an atomic bomb, twice, and I don't believe he ever campaigned to have nuclear bombs removed from fiction. People who have suffered gun wounds don't ask for people to remove guns from the media.

    Before people accuse me of not understanding the trauma involved, I actually am a survivor of abuse suffered during childhood. I'm not proud of it and I don't like bringing it up, but not actually bringing it up is an instant invalidation of my argument for some reason.

    You accuse others of being disingenuous, but I think you've ascribed several motivations to people in this post that simply do not have a basis in reality.

    When you say Themiscrya "got what [he] wanted", you are making a lot of assumptions! When you say that people are saying that supporters of this shirt "hate rape victims and love rape", you are either not reading the thread or outright imagining these slights. This reductionist idea that there are two sides to this issue; champions of free speech and good humor vs. feminists that can't take a joke and want all dickwolves shirts burned, is ridiculous. The idea that a) victims of rape or other sexual trauma are monolithic and b) you know exactly what all those people should be doing, is both ridiculous and insulting, and indicates to me that you aren't being intellectually honest in considering the other opinions here.

    Part of the issue is that the people who might actually and honestly be offended by this, by the nature of the issue at hand, have not chosen to be offended. They were victimized. If this were about Jesus shirts, then nobody would give a shit because it's a group of people that have solely chosen to take umbrage. In this scenario, the premise is that there is a subset of people, however small, that cannot choose to not be reminded of really bad things from their past when they think about this situation as a result of seeing the shirt.

    And on the last part of this post; I say this with no desire to offend or cast aspersions on what you said, but bringing that up in this conversation is like saying "I have tons of friends who are black!" in a conversation about racism. Whether or not any of us have suffered traumas isn't relevant unless we assume (as you do) that all the foibles and intricacies of those traumas are identical, when in reality there are huge gradients for basically every mental disorder. Assuming you know where anyone in particular lies on this scale is just not accurate. With that said you should be proud of your ability to conquer such issues in your own life, just don't assume you know what other people have experience or what they need to do.

    Still, at the same time you consider anyone who might be hurt in the situation to be a "mewling crybaby" who needs to "harden the fuck up"? This doesn't seem like someone who cares about how such victims feel. It undercuts any rational arguments you might've had.

    JohnHam on
    signature.png

  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Drez wrote: »
    But outright banning clothing from their convention? If there was some kind of dress code in place already ("no shoes, no shirt, no service!") that would be one thing. But to ban one specific shirt at this point is a ludicrous idea. Particularly if they sold that shirt in the past. Particularly if they are still selling the shirt when they make that proclamation.
    Which is honestly why I think the best course of action would be to ban clothing with blatant profanity or obscene imagery. It keeps PAX family-friendly (*snerk*) and gets rid of the Dickwolves shirts, the Survivors Guild shirts, all of it. No one gets to play. They could make it clear that PA fans are of course welcome to wear whatever they want to other Penny Arcade events, but PAX is when we all bury the hatchet and come together. Isn't that ultimately what everyone here wants? To keep the sense of community and camaraderie that has characterized PAX all along, rather than pulling a silly fight in and raising walls?

    It's she, by the way, JohnHam. Geez, you actually call yourself an Amazon and even so...

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited January 2011
    As I said before, this isn't a place for debate.

    Tube on
  • ProprietyPropriety PAX Pokemon League Leader! Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Drez wrote: »
    Can anyone here sufficiently answer all of these questions? I doubt it. So I find it hard to swallow all the psychobabble on both sides of the equation here. People are just making blanket assumptions regarding the psychology of rape survivors and others with PTSD-type conditions, when nobody here is really qualified to comment.

    Nobody, except, of course, for those people who have come forward and said, "I am a rape survivor/I have PTSD, and this shirt makes me feel pain." These people said "I don't feel comfortable coming to PAX because seeing these shirts reminds me of something that causes me pain." How is that not enough?

    I know I'm not important, nobody probably cares, and nobody's going to read this, but this whole situation has been bothering me a lot, and I need to write something about it. Here's how I feel, and I'll try to make it concise.

    The original strip should be protected under freedom of speech. Comedy/art is supposed to touch upon uncomfortable topics. Some people will complain, voice their discomfort, some will avoid the source of the discomfort altogether. It's part of free speech.

    But to then go on and tell those people "if you had those feelings, you're an idiot." Or "there is no reason for you to feel uncomfortable! How could you possibly react that way, something must be wrong with you," as Mike and Jerry did in the subsequent strip? That's being a dick. Still protected by free speech, of course. But it's a dick move.

    THEN, instead of saying "we understand your anger, it was a joke, let's move on," they create a t-shirt that harkens back to that joke, but in a different way. Now, instead of a Dickwolf, a creature whose only purpose is to commit rape, being a terrible, bad thing (that a slave wants to be saved from) it is a team mascot. Something that you root for. Can you not see how that might make a victim of rape feel uncomfortable, vulnerable? And to be at a convention where hundreds of people would be wearing that shirt, all at once, in close proximity? Creating that shirt was a dick move, and selling it at a convention would be an even bigger dick move.

    Mike and Jerry have always said that PAX is like a giant party for all their friends and they're the hosts. Would a host purposefully try to make a guest feel uncomfortable, depressed, or traumatized? Mike and Jerry have every right to do so, but in doing so, they violate Wheaton's law in an egregious way.

    It kind of hurts when people who you like, people you look up to, say you're foolish for feeling a certain way, or for having PTSD or anxiety or depression triggered by certain topics, and that you should just sit out, not participate, in a really wonderful, great experience (PAX, I mean) just because you have anxiety, or PTSD. It hurts when a creator of something you love basically says they're going to go out of their way to wear a shirt that you've said makes you feel bad, that you're going to do it just to spite them, or to rub it in their face.

    Everyone else seems to be making the point that "well, there's LOTS of things out there in the world that are uncomfortable and offensive, you should just suck it up." Why wouldn't you just go out of their way to make PAX a great experience for everyone? A large number of people have come forward and complained about this very thing. Clearly, there is something in particular that is bad about it for a lot of people. Why can't we just come together as a community, say, "yes, we care about making you feel welcome and safe," and drop the shirt?

    Instead, we got "we dropped the shirt so that people would stop complaining." Which is really not very nice at all.

    I'm honestly surprised that Mike, as someone who knows how debilitating psychological issues can be, wouldn't be more understanding of this. I'm holding out hope that Jerry can bring the issue to light and at least have a reasoned discussion about it.

    Propriety on
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  • EvilBadmanEvilBadman DO NOT TRUST THIS MAN Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Themiscyra wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    But outright banning clothing from their convention? If there was some kind of dress code in place already ("no shoes, no shirt, no service!") that would be one thing. But to ban one specific shirt at this point is a ludicrous idea. Particularly if they sold that shirt in the past. Particularly if they are still selling the shirt when they make that proclamation.
    Which is honestly why I think the best course of action would be to ban clothing with blatant profanity or obscene imagery. It keeps PAX family-friendly (*snerk*) and gets rid of the Dickwolves shirts, the Survivors Guild shirts, all of it. No one gets to play. They could make it clear that PA fans are of course welcome to wear whatever they want to other Penny Arcade events, but PAX is when we all bury the hatchet and come together. Isn't that ultimately what everyone here wants? To keep the sense of community and camaraderie that has characterized PAX all along, rather than pulling a silly fight in and raising walls?

    It's she, by the way, JohnHam. Geez, you actually call yourself an Amazon and even so...

    Oh, I thought you were a desk jockey for Amazon.

    EvilBadman on
    FyreWulff wrote: »
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  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    EvilBadman wrote: »
    Oh, I thought you were a desk jockey for Amazon.
    ...and suddenly it all becomes clear. Apparently I need to change my user title. ;)

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I was conflicted about this. On one hand, I respect freedom of expression. On the other hand, while I could see that the comic was an innocent (although insensitive) joke, the shirt was a pretty clear offensive move.

    While I still believe it wasn't the intent of Mike or Jerry, they got a bunch of emails saying,
    "I'm a rape victim and I feel really upset with how easy-breezy rape is projected in the media. It is used for humorous purposes and that hurts my feelings. What happened to me was the worst experience of my life and I don't think rape as a topic is funny."

    What was the response? "WELL WE DO COMICS ABOUT BESTIALITY."

    While bestiality is a disgusting taboo, it isn't a horrible invasion of one's body and self, it isn't a crime committed against the person who is upset by rape.

    If that is your response, you should stop and ask yourself, "why do I have to go over there to support something right here?" Some people don't have all their issues in one basket. It is perfectly reasonable that a rape victim might be traumatized by rape but not care about slasher-film genre level random acts of violence.


    It was a fair comment by Mike & Jerry: "We never realized anyone would think of our comics as safe. They are absolutely disgusting at times." If the response had stopped there, that would be fine. I think the shirt was really over the top and a bit of a harsh response to people who opened the dialog by saying, "You hurt my feelings."

    I think removing the shirt was absolutely appropriate and am glad that they did so.

    With that said, I don't like the "we did it to avoid conflict" theme--I really hope that at least some part of them realized that it wasn't an appropriate response, and they feel badly now for it. I'm not saying it was HORRIBLE: but it wasn't appropriate, it was unkind, and it was insensitive. Again, not the end of the world, and I think almost any of us could hurt someone accidentally--I'm not trying to say that Mike & Jerry did something inhuman.

    The appropriate thing to do though when you hurt someone and they tell you is say, "I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention." Not create a shirt for your more devoted following to embrace.

    edit: I hope I'm not contributing to the debate. I just saw Tube's latest post on that. I was conscientious not to mention any specific posts and make my comment about the decision to remove the shirt & how I saw the actual conduct by Mike/Jerry, not about any other PA poster.

    streever on
  • JohnHamJohnHam Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Themiscyra wrote: »
    It's she, by the way, JohnHam. Geez, you actually call yourself an Amazon and even so...

    You know how it is, I meant no disrespect. In the internet justice system, all posters are considered male until proven female.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8lDYrvTILc

    JohnHam on
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  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    JohnHam wrote: »
    You know how it is, I meant no disrespect. In the internet justice system, all posters are considered male until proven female.
    'S cool, I was mostly teasing with that anyway. And apparently people thought I worked for Amazon.com, so I can understand the confusion.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Themiscyra wrote: »
    Have you seen the t-shirt?

    Unless you're either a fan or part of the rape culture brigade you wouldn't know it was spawned from a joke that happens to mention rape as part of the setup.

    You will not scar random rape victims while walking down the street in that shirt.
    No, but you will carry an incredibly painful, drawn-out conflict into PAX, and maybe that goes a bit against the spirit of community.

    Laughing at the original strip doesn't make you a bad person. Hell, I laughed at it, so if it does, I'll see you all in Hell. Liking the shirt doesn't make you a bad person. But this fight...there's still a lot of resentment simmering on both sides. And I'd really love it if everyone just laid down their arms for PAX, y'know?

    If I knew people were going to be cool about this, I wouldn't feel the need to wear my Dickwolves Survivors Guild shirt (bought only after the switch to BARCC, for the record). But since people are planning to flood the con with Dickwolves shirts and at least some of them aren't doing it solely because they love free speech...yeah. I kind of feel like I have to, just so PAX fandom doesn't look like an antagonistic monolith to anyone. No, I'm sure that's not everyone's intent. But the message isn't great.

    So, just to be clear, you are arguing over a t-shirt you haven't actually even seen. O_o

    If I weren't at work I'd google image search it for you. It's really probably one of the least potentially offensive shirts (at least to random passerby who wouldn't know about the controversy) they had on the store.

    Also, I'm not going to PAX. No where in this thread have I given any indication that I was, and that I would be wearing the t-shirt while I was there.

    So the best bit is that the people who are complaining have brought this upon themselves. Suddenly it's going to be a hostile environment (when it wouldn't have before) because some people were afraid it might be a hostile environment. I almost wish I could go just to soak in the awkward energy.

    Shorn Scrotum Man on
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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Just so people are clear on how I feel: I'm not exaggerating when I say that, to me, the response comic is possibly the absolute worst strip in all 12+ years of Penny Arcade history (all of which I have reread multiple times). To put that into context, their history includes this brilliant strip:

    19990310h.jpg

    I have a far lower opinion of the dickwolf response comic than even that one. The response comic was fourth wall breaking unhumorous crap and even though people seem to think it is funny, I don't even think that was their goal in drawing that particular strip. It is basically the equivalent of a stand up comic dropping out of a joke to tell the audience "fuck you if you don't like it," which I don't really go for either.

    They shouldn't have commented at all. They didn't really owe anyone an explanation or excuse or anything in the first place, but they decided to respond and did it in the worst way possible.

    Drez on
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  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    EDIT YOU KNOW WHAT NEVER MIND

    Arch on
  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    The shirt has the word 'dick' on it. A blanket ban on outright profanity would cover that.

    I have seen the shirt and don't find it personally offensive. But I don't like the symbol it's become, and I don't like the thought of PAX becoming a battleground for this issue.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Themiscyra wrote: »
    The shirt has the word 'dick' on it. A blanket ban on outright profanity would cover that.

    I have seen the shirt and don't find it personally offensive. But I don't like the symbol it's become, and I don't like the thought of PAX becoming a battleground for this issue.

    Then you wouldn't be able to wear almost any Penny Arcade shirt. That'd kill sales.

    And PAX wouldn't be a battleground if people hadn't used it as an excuse to get something removed that they didn't like.

    Shorn Scrotum Man on
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  • ThemiscyraThemiscyra Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Then you wouldn't be able to wear almost any Penny Arcade shirt. That'd kill sales.

    And PAX wouldn't be a battleground if people hadn't used it as an excuse to get something removed that they didn't like.
    The majority of PA shirts don't have outright profanity OR blatantly obscene imagery. No, I do not consider the Fruit Fucker to be inherently obscene imagery.

    And there's such a thing as taking the higher road rather than continuing a fight no one really wants. I kind of feel like blaming the people who spoke out, regardless of what they said, for one's own decision to get in *everyone's* faces is still dickishness.

    Themiscyra on
    PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut
    After time adrift among open stars
    Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
    I will return to where I began
  • GunDownGunDown Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Can I wear my shirt that says "I wish I were wearing a DickWolves shirt"?

    Because I do.

    GunDown on
  • DanUNGDanUNG Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    All this controversy is pretty stupid. What's done is done. One side (PA) has already stopped talking about it, and the other (Kirbybits or whatever) will too.

    The shirt's gone. It's called a compromise.

    Also, in before the lock.

    DanUNG on
  • suttreesuttree Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    For the free speech advocates, I recommend the tumblr page here.
    Let the memes begin.

    suttree on
  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I'm kinda angling on the side of: It's their shirt, their design. They can do what they want with it.

    Which happens to suck, for any of us that wanted to buy that particular shirt. Meh. :shrug:

    Doobh on
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  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    I think people are attributing way more attention to this than it deserves.

    It's a shirt; it bugged some people, so they decided not to sell it.

    It's not like Mike wrote some huge blog post apologizing for the comic, before nuking the servers.

    And as for all the bloggers crowing about this, who the fuck cares?

    Yes, congratulations, you got Penny Arcade to remove a shirt. This definitely makes up for the fact that while you're running a shitty WordPress blog on your own time, their website is getting as many hits as yours in a fifth of a second, and they are actually getting paid for it.

    Romanian My Escutcheon on
    [IMG][/img]
  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Shit, they didn't even get PA to remove the shirt; they really have nothing to crow about anyway.

    Romanian My Escutcheon on
    [IMG][/img]
  • McNsMcNs Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    This mess has actually made me decide to sit out PAX East this year.

    Some background: I'm not an avid video game player; I actually found PA via Warmachine and Tycho/Gabe's comics regarding that game. I dig a lot of PA's humor (although I'm sure some video game references go over my head) and was looking forward to throwing down some dice at PAX East.

    That said, the last thing I want to deal with when gaming is a large number of people I don't know getting into heated arguements over "rape culture"/"dick wolves" all weekend. That doesn't sound like fun to me, and while I respect Mike's decision to pull the shirt, I feel like the drama level surrounding the whole event has been raised because of it. With that in mind, I think I'll wait till 2012 when (hopefully) this has blown over.

    McNs on
  • foxie299foxie299 Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    Registering just to post.

    See, I thought it was worthwhile doing that because I think Jerry and Mike deserve some kudos for taking the shirt down.

    I've not been raped, and so I have no right to tell rape survivors what they can and can't find funny, and what they can and can't find offensive. They say this is offensive to them, then it is. Take it down and stop hurting people. Is that so difficult to do?

    I mean, think about cats. I could put my cat's tail into a mincer. With every yelp and scream and howl I could tell him not to be so upset, it doesn't hurt, I'm just having some fun stop ruining for me! Truth be told, I wouldn't know what it felt like to have my tail minced because I don't have a tail. I don't know how much, or even if it would hurt. I have no experience of tail ownership and so no place telling my cat how to feel about it. So when my cat starts yowling, I think, 'well hey, maybe this hurts... I mean, there's no way I'd know, is there?'

    In the same way, I haven't been raped. When people that have been start yowling, it's time to shut up and start listening.

    foxie299 on
    It's a blog! DylanFox.net
  • JohnHamJohnHam Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    McNs wrote: »
    This mess has actually made me decide to sit out PAX East this year.

    Some background: I'm not an avid video game player; I actually found PA via Warmachine and Tycho/Gabe's comics regarding that game. I dig a lot of PA's humor (although I'm sure some video game references go over my head) and was looking forward to throwing down some dice at PAX East.

    That said, the last thing I want to deal with when gaming is a large number of people I don't know getting into heated arguements over "rape culture"/"dick wolves" all weekend. That doesn't sound like fun to me, and while I respect Mike's decision to pull the shirt, I feel like the drama level surrounding the whole event has been raised because of it. With that in mind, I think I'll wait till 2012 when (hopefully) this has blown over.

    This is the worst! Don't sit out due to this. It should not be a focal point of the show. From what I know of the general climate of these things, it will not be hostile, or dramatic. And though I might disagree with someone, at PAX the number one priority is 420 have fun erryday, and a rational PAXeteer would never seek out such a debate in that context. It's just not what the show is about, it's about fun with like-minded people. We have differences as every large group of people does, but for those three glorious days, we are just a bunch of dudes and ladies that like games.

    Hopefully this situation won't discourage you from attending, it would be a shame.

    JohnHam on
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  • Dorkmaster FlekDorkmaster Flek Registered User regular
    edited January 2011
    foxie299 wrote: »
    Registering just to post.

    See, I thought it was worthwhile doing that because I think Jerry and Mike deserve some kudos for taking the shirt down.

    I've not been raped, and so I have no right to tell rape survivors what they can and can't find funny, and what they can and can't find offensive. They say this is offensive to them, then it is. Take it down and stop hurting people. Is that so difficult to do?

    I mean, think about cats. I could put my cat's tail into a mincer. With every yelp and scream and howl I could tell him not to be so upset, it doesn't hurt, I'm just having some fun stop ruining for me! Truth be told, I wouldn't know what it felt like to have my tail minced because I don't have a tail. I don't know how much, or even if it would hurt. I have no experience of tail ownership and so no place telling my cat how to feel about it. So when my cat starts yowling, I think, 'well hey, maybe this hurts... I mean, there's no way I'd know, is there?'

    In the same way, I haven't been raped. When people that have been start yowling, it's time to shut up and start listening.
    Seriously? Mincing your cats tail is the same thing as making a joke about rape? You've got to be kidding me. Forcibly mutilating a living creature is not even close to the same thing as making a joke some people find offensive. I can't believe I actually have to explain this.

    My problem is not that these few people were offended. They can be offended by whatever they want. What they can't do, however, is force everyone else to conform to their views on what is and isn't offensive. That's what I find personally offensive about this whole thing. For me, it is about freedom of speech. You do not have the right to go through life never being offended by anything. If they had said "Hey guys, you know we really don't like this t-shirt for these reasons. Do you think maybe we could agree that it would be cool not to wear it at PAX because it's supposed to be about friendly gatherings and not pissing each other off?" you bet your sweet ass people would have responded fine. Sure, there are always going to be a few people who would do it anyway, but we sure as hell wouldn't have the "battleground effect" that we have now. By responding with what amounts to censorship, they've turned it from an offensive joke into a free speech issue.

    Dorkmaster Flek on
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