In one of the more interesting scifi books I read lately humanity was conquered thousands of years ago, and are now well integrated into the new society, with the conquerors (Shaa) as supreme rulers, Peers (noble families of various conquered races) as the (corrupt nepotistic) government, and then everyone else below them in the middle class or lower.
For those playing at home, Echo's talking about the "Dread Empire's Fall" trilogy by Walter Jon Williams. Those of you who've expressed a wish to see stories where humans aren't the boring average members of the galaxy (or its rulers) could do a lot worse than to check these books out - they're intelligent, literate, and fun modern space operas.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
It's almost impossible to enforce IP when it comes to characters and designs. How often do you see a superhero in a blue suit with a red cape. As long as he doesn't have an "S" in a diamond on his chest, it's considered different.
Not quite true. Back in the fifties DC won an infringment suit against Fawcett Comics (publishers of Captain Marvel) for the character's similarity to Superman, a serious enough blow to Fawcett that they ended up shutting their doors and selling the Captain Marvel properties to DC. Similarly, while companies like Image can publish Supermanalikes like Supreme or Astro City's Samaritan, that they aren't sued owes more to the gentlemen's-agreement nature of the modern comics business (and, as I'll explain below, DC's later history of tolerating parodies and homages) than being legally bulletproof. I mean, Charles Atlas's company was able to keep DC tied up in a months-long suit over Flex Mentallo despite Flex being a clear parody and in a completely different business.
But the thing with IP and trademark law is, you have to be able to show that you've vigorously enforced your claim or it weakens your position later on. Marvel and DC had to sue the makers of City of Heroes on grounds that pretty much everyone knew from the get-go were spurious, not because they expected to win but because otherwise it would make actual infringment of their properties that much easier down the road. With regards to the thread topic, I think GW could easily have sued Blizzard back in the day - maybe not won, but they probably could have kept the game off shelves for months or even years. But they'd have no chance now, since any complaint they brought up could be dismissed with "well, you've tolerated this for over a decade, you must not be very serious."
I noticed the thread title and I thought I might have a somewhat interesting perspective on the Blizzard/WH40K connection. I worked in the comics/games store (and I'm actually working there again part time while in grad school to afford my ridiculously expensive comics habit) that the actual designers of Starcraft used to shop at, and I actually overheard several conversations they had about doing their own RTS that was something of an homage to Warhammer 40k. Several of my co-workers actually went to work at Blizzard, too, and one of them even has a fishing pole named after him in WoW.
With regards to someone earlier in the thread saying how scifi teaches us humans are the average guys, this is something that I'd love to see changed in a setting. I think it's be neat to have humans be "the strong guys", or "the smart ones" for a change. But then I guess part of the appeal of fantasy/sci-fi is seeing these species that can do things humans can't.
On a completely thread derailing tangent, there actually is a Sci-Fi book series about this.
The Damned Trilogy by Alan Dean Foster
Wasn't too bad a read. The cool thing is, there's a giant war going on between 2 alien alliances. And one of them starts recruiting humans, because we are the strongest, toughest, most bloodthirsty and most violent sentient species anyones ever seen. It's an interesting turn about from the usual.
That sounds cool and is pretty much what I was hoping for! I'll note down the name and try to check it out some time.
having never played warhammer, i always thought of starcraft as aliens vs. predator vs. humans.
I see the aliens but... predator?
You mean scrupulously honor-bound people who are constantly cloaking themselves and wear their "hair" in oddly non-human dreadlocks don't remind you of anything?
The difference is that the Protoss are a protector species and Predators are just dicks. And the only Protoss with personal cloaking fields are Dark Templar, who are originally exiles and fight with nothing more high-tech than some sort of energy sword.
I can see how someone could make the connection if they hadn't been exposed to anything more similar to the Protoss, but with that exposure, it seems like a very, very tenuous connection.
Not quite true. Back in the fifties DC won an infringment suit against Fawcett Comics (publishers of Captain Marvel) for the character's similarity to Superman, a serious enough blow to Fawcett that they ended up shutting their doors and selling the Captain Marvel properties to DC. Similarly, while companies like Image can publish Supermanalikes like Supreme or Astro City's Samaritan, that they aren't sued owes more to the gentlemen's-agreement nature of the modern comics business (and, as I'll explain below, DC's later history of tolerating parodies and homages) than being legally bulletproof. I mean, Charles Atlas's company was able to keep DC tied up in a months-long suit over Flex Mentallo despite Flex being a clear parody and in a completely different business.
But the thing with IP and trademark law is, you have to be able to show that you've vigorously enforced your claim or it weakens your position later on. Marvel and DC had to sue the makers of City of Heroes on grounds that pretty much everyone knew from the get-go were spurious, not because they expected to win but because otherwise it would make actual infringment of their properties that much easier down the road. With regards to the thread topic, I think GW could easily have sued Blizzard back in the day - maybe not won, but they probably could have kept the game off shelves for months or even years. But they'd have no chance now, since any complaint they brought up could be dismissed with "well, you've tolerated this for over a decade, you must not be very serious."
I'd always thought, with my extremely limited knowledge of IP law, that the biggest threat (especially in the comics space) was having to spend money to defend yourself.
There's not a whole lot of information out there, but I don't think I've ever seen a successful cross-media gaming lawsuit, while GW has killed or extracted funds from many a small company with miniatures, artwork, or game-related stuff too close to theirs. In any case, I agree that GW may have been able to make things difficult for Blizzard, especially around the original Warcraft. Later releases have strayed quite a bit. Whether through ignorance, appreciation of homage, or whatever else, they never did a thing.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.
Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.
Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.
Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.
really? It's hard to imagine Pratchett writing war books like that. He usually tends to settle things without much violence.
Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.
Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.
really? It's hard to imagine Pratchett writing war books like that. He usually tends to settle things without much violence.
The humor's pretty similar though. I could see him doing a short story about halflings stealing each other's cocks or orcs playing football with a baby.
At this point in the road, most of the major universes in Sci-Fi or Fantasy are pretty similar to each other. Alot of them have similar underlying themes and races. How many universes have an ancient, extinct (or nearly extinct) race of super intelligent incredibly sophistcated yet mysterious beings? How many universes have orcs and humans and dark lords? And lets not forget the parasitic race of semi-intelligent beings that live in a social structure similar to a hive. I suppose the main thing that lends credence to the accusation that Blizzard harvested Warhammer is the fact that the art styles are so similar. Warhammer is much more dark and brutal of course, but they both use a very similar exagerated style of art.
Really you could take just about any popular universe and say that it harvested off of another, or vice versa. You could say that every fantasy book made since Tolkein started publishing his work harvested off of LotR. And it might be true to a degree since most fantasy is heavily influenced by Tolkein but it wouldn't really be fair. I think the originality of something doesnt necisarily come from the universe, but from the story it's self, the story and the characters. Not from the art style or the races involved or the places where they wage their wars.
I'm going to do something tottaly geeky here and quote a character from a fantasy book, Septon Maribald from A Feast for Crows:
There are many types of outlaws as there are many types of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings but they are not the same.
So if it works for outlaws I'm going to take a bit of a jump here and say that it works for fictional universes too. If you understand me. Although I admit I never managed to get involved in the Warhammer universe or any universe Blizzard has created. So forgive me for that.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
I started playing Warhammer and 40k well before Warcraft or Starcraft, yet I don't really care if Blizzard "harvested" Warhammer or 40k. I do get annoyed with twits who claim that Warhammer/40k clearly copied from Blizzard (when those were around well before Blizzard), but otherwise I do not particularly care so long as the games aren't bad homages. I do find that Blizzard has been going into the DnD monster manuals more and more these days, more so than with Warhammer anyway. I was playing the expansion to WoW for example and the number of monsters I saw that looked identical to monsters from the DnD monster manuals (of which I have nearly all of them) was uncanny.
having never played warhammer, i always thought of starcraft as aliens vs. predator vs. humans.
I see the aliens but... predator?
sure.
predators are tough, with highly advanced technology and a tribalistic society. dts cloak like the predators. zealots have arm blades like the predators. mounted shoulder cannons remind me of the way a dragoon attacks. the way they look even kind of reminds me of predators (with their masks) on.
the similarities arent perfect, but neither do the zerg really resemble the aliens when you think about it. but the themes are definitely there.
again, ive never played warhammer so i dont know what the eldar look like or fight like or whatever. but the first time i ever played starcraft, i thought, shit, this is like aliens vs predator vs humans. awesome!
Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.
Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.
Yeah, but Tau came after starcraft and was more directly based off of anime (so I hear).
However, Protoss being a mixture of a bit of eldar and a bit of predator makes a decent amount of sense. They do look a bit like predators with their masks still on, and some of the weapons are very similar.
Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.
Just for that I'll scream "Stealthsuits ready!" for every dark templar my brother trains.
Yeah, but Tau came after starcraft and was more directly based off of anime (so I hear).
"The Tau infantry models, according to sculptor Jes Goodwin, were designed to have subtle influences taken from Chinese foot soldiers, while the Battlesuits and vehicles drew from mecha anime."
So yeah. Even their accents in DC seem to be based on what we think Japanese people sound like.
Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.
Personally, I've always thought that going by superficial appearance alone, Protoss were more similar to Tau. Just the golden-coloured armour, advanced technology and bluish-grey skin. As well as the mysterious cloaked rulers of both races. My brother bought Dawn of War: Dark Crusade last Saturday and was playing as Tau. I was sitting next to him and just kept screaming "We must construct additional pylons!" - probably more to be annoying than anything else.
Yeah except the Tau came out after Starcraft
HAH, So Warhammer did rip off Starcraft.
You can hear the goading from here.
goadgoadgoadgoadgoadgoad
It's theorized that some sort of psionic link is what's keeping them loyal to the Ethereals. Or maybe they're just credulous.
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ZephosClimbin in yo ski lifts, snatchin your people up.MichiganRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
appearance wise and maybe a few random things about them and they might, might, look similar if you squint your eyes, but really the tau and protoss aren't really that similar at all. (not just physically)
say now, wasn't there a 40K unit made after starcraft that was a ripoff or something? or at least thats what i hear on the urban legend grape vine.
Bear in mind the Tyranids actually got a lot more Zerg-like in their more recent designs. The Ravener in particular, I don't think that actually had a model until recently (post-SC).
It's theorized that some sort of psionic link is what's keeping them loyal to the Ethereals. Or maybe they're just credulous.
It'd be tough without much of a warp-signature. I'd say that's a theory that can be grouped in with "Sigmar is a Primarch" or "Human technology was made by the C'tan". As in internets BS not even hinted at by GW.
It's theorized that some sort of psionic link is what's keeping them loyal to the Ethereals. Or maybe they're just credulous.
It'd be tough without much of a warp-signature. I'd say that's a theory that can be grouped in with "Sigmar is a Primarch" or "Human technology was made by the C'tan". As in internets BS not even hinted at by GW.
It doesn't give a source, but Wikipedia does say
Ethereals are obeyed without question by the other castes, and the Imperium suspects that this control is the result of a latent psychic or pheromone-based power.
Posts
They're still pretty much stuck using their dead as soldiers now, though.
For those playing at home, Echo's talking about the "Dread Empire's Fall" trilogy by Walter Jon Williams. Those of you who've expressed a wish to see stories where humans aren't the boring average members of the galaxy (or its rulers) could do a lot worse than to check these books out - they're intelligent, literate, and fun modern space operas.
But the thing with IP and trademark law is, you have to be able to show that you've vigorously enforced your claim or it weakens your position later on. Marvel and DC had to sue the makers of City of Heroes on grounds that pretty much everyone knew from the get-go were spurious, not because they expected to win but because otherwise it would make actual infringment of their properties that much easier down the road. With regards to the thread topic, I think GW could easily have sued Blizzard back in the day - maybe not won, but they probably could have kept the game off shelves for months or even years. But they'd have no chance now, since any complaint they brought up could be dismissed with "well, you've tolerated this for over a decade, you must not be very serious."
I see the aliens but... predator?
SoogaGames Blog
You mean scrupulously honor-bound people who are constantly cloaking themselves and wear their "hair" in oddly non-human dreadlocks don't remind you of anything?
I can see how someone could make the connection if they hadn't been exposed to anything more similar to the Protoss, but with that exposure, it seems like a very, very tenuous connection.
I'd always thought, with my extremely limited knowledge of IP law, that the biggest threat (especially in the comics space) was having to spend money to defend yourself.
There's not a whole lot of information out there, but I don't think I've ever seen a successful cross-media gaming lawsuit, while GW has killed or extracted funds from many a small company with miniatures, artwork, or game-related stuff too close to theirs. In any case, I agree that GW may have been able to make things difficult for Blizzard, especially around the original Warcraft. Later releases have strayed quite a bit. Whether through ignorance, appreciation of homage, or whatever else, they never did a thing.
Though not my speed, I think everyone's better off they didn't delay things, then.
Also, I stumbled across this absurdly fascinating article from a former GW author, describing the genesis of GW and GW novels/background. Apparently Terry Pratchet wanted to get on board for the first round of books during the late 80's.
The humor's pretty similar though. I could see him doing a short story about halflings stealing each other's cocks or orcs playing football with a baby.
Really you could take just about any popular universe and say that it harvested off of another, or vice versa. You could say that every fantasy book made since Tolkein started publishing his work harvested off of LotR. And it might be true to a degree since most fantasy is heavily influenced by Tolkein but it wouldn't really be fair. I think the originality of something doesnt necisarily come from the universe, but from the story it's self, the story and the characters. Not from the art style or the races involved or the places where they wage their wars.
I'm going to do something tottaly geeky here and quote a character from a fantasy book, Septon Maribald from A Feast for Crows:
There are many types of outlaws as there are many types of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings but they are not the same.
So if it works for outlaws I'm going to take a bit of a jump here and say that it works for fictional universes too. If you understand me. Although I admit I never managed to get involved in the Warhammer universe or any universe Blizzard has created. So forgive me for that.
Felt like I was playing DnD for a while in fact.
sure.
predators are tough, with highly advanced technology and a tribalistic society. dts cloak like the predators. zealots have arm blades like the predators. mounted shoulder cannons remind me of the way a dragoon attacks. the way they look even kind of reminds me of predators (with their masks) on.
the similarities arent perfect, but neither do the zerg really resemble the aliens when you think about it. but the themes are definitely there.
again, ive never played warhammer so i dont know what the eldar look like or fight like or whatever. but the first time i ever played starcraft, i thought, shit, this is like aliens vs predator vs humans. awesome!
They need a proper, modern RTS that actually is Humans vs. Predators vs. Aliens.
Yeah, but Tau came after starcraft and was more directly based off of anime (so I hear).
However, Protoss being a mixture of a bit of eldar and a bit of predator makes a decent amount of sense. They do look a bit like predators with their masks still on, and some of the weapons are very similar.
Just for that I'll scream "Stealthsuits ready!" for every dark templar my brother trains.
"The Tau infantry models, according to sculptor Jes Goodwin, were designed to have subtle influences taken from Chinese foot soldiers, while the Battlesuits and vehicles drew from mecha anime."
So yeah. Even their accents in DC seem to be based on what we think Japanese people sound like.
i own this but have not yet played it. i blind bought it just because it, well, because it's an rts with aliens, predators and humans.
im sure it probably sucks though. most reviews say just that.
Yeah except the Tau came out after Starcraft
HAH, So Warhammer did rip off Starcraft.
goadgoadgoadgoadgoadgoad
And kind of lack psychic powers.
say now, wasn't there a 40K unit made after starcraft that was a ripoff or something? or at least thats what i hear on the urban legend grape vine.
SoogaGames Blog
It'd be tough without much of a warp-signature. I'd say that's a theory that can be grouped in with "Sigmar is a Primarch" or "Human technology was made by the C'tan". As in internets BS not even hinted at by GW.
It doesn't give a source, but Wikipedia does say