Hilarious, but specifying which country you're in and whether or not you're in a major FOB doesn't break opsec.
Except that it does.
You might want to do a little research on opsec.
Taranis on
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mosssnackYeah right, man, Bishop should go!Good idea!Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
Thankfully life on a sub is so god damn busy that no one has time to give a shit about "professionalism."
Heh, reminds me of this one time we pulled into Bremerton, Washington unexpectedly and for us it was cold as shit. We're all used to the Hawaii heat, so this whole freezing our asses off while standing watch was a little new and unpleasant. And of course, no one had packed any appropriate clothing, especially warm uniform items. So we stood watch with our hands in our pockets or stuffed somewhere else. No one really gave us any shit, cept this one First Class.
He was ripping into some seaman who was standing watch with his hands in his pockets and gets interrupted by a Chief telling him to shut his fucking mouth. It's always pretty neat to see those asshole LPO types get that deer in the headlights look.
Thankfully life on a sub is so god damn busy that no one has time to give a shit about "professionalism."
Heh, reminds me of this one time we pulled into Bremerton, Washington unexpectedly and for us it was cold as shit. We're all used to the Hawaii heat, so this whole freezing our asses off while standing watch was a little new and unpleasant. And of course, no one had packed any appropriate clothing, especially warm uniform items. So we stood watch with our hands in our pockets or stuffed somewhere else. No one really gave us any shit, cept this one First Class.
He was ripping into some seaman who was standing watch with his hands in his pockets and gets interrupted by a Chief telling him to shut his fucking mouth. It's always pretty neat to see those asshole LPO types get that deer in the headlights look.
Oh God, that reminds me of my days standing watch on a sub in Bremerton. Cold, miserable, wet winters. 3 section duty rotation, port and starboard sentry watches. In the rain, soaking wet, every other 4 hours on watch. This went on for months.
Finally one miserable duty day the duty chief is the mean old A-gang senior chief, who rarely stands duty.
He rolls into duty section turnover, looks at the watchbill, turns to the section leader and says "I notice that belowdecks is 3 section while the sentries who stand watch un-sheltered are port and starboard. Fix it now."
The look on the asshole 1st class section leader's face was priceless, as was the several seconds of sputtering before he finally realized the only response was "Aye, senior chief."
-edit-
Oh, and MMCS must have put his dirty A-gang boot up the rest of the duty chief's collective asses, because that policy became permanent after that any time it was cold and/or raining.
The sock thing is fucking hilarious. Back to the Army, anybody remember the old PTs? The sweatpants/sweatjacket? The jacket that had a hood? The hood you were never, ever allowed to use?
Jesus that sock thing, absolutely hilarious. Looking at that website, god so much of it is true.
I remember the old PT's, and the fucking winter covers with the ear flaps that no one is allowed to use. OR the booney hat they issue you only to tell you, you can't wear it because it looks unprofessional. The PT belts that had to be constantly worn while in Kuwait and yet still get combat pay. Such BS.
I smoke and walk, I talk on the phone and walk, I really don't give a shit who see's me do it. If someone tells me to stop, I'll just put out the cigarette/end the call, walk a bit till their out of ear/eye shot, then resume what I was doing, but the only installations I've personally had problems with that are Marine Corps ones.
When we where in Kuwait, they told us we where no longer allowed to wear the booney. So I "lost" mine, during a vehicle fire. "Well then you need to buy a new one to replace it!" "Actually, it was lost during a patrol when our vehicle came on fire, so no, no I don't." I was the only one in our Company then wearing a booney hat.
I recall towards the end of my 1st tour in 05 they started having chow hall nazi's check for uniform cleanliness. We had just come off a 13hr patrol, ended up in Baghdad, dirty as shit, and had 15 mins to get in before chow closed. They refused to let us in at the door, because our "boots and uniforms are dirty and unsightly". They wanted us to go change before allowing us to eat. Luckily, we had an E-7 who just didn't give a shit, forced his way in (we all followed), and when the chow Major came to yell at the E-7, he told him to fuck off.
I recall towards the end of my 1st tour in 05 they started having chow hall nazi's check for uniform cleanliness. We had just come off a 13hr patrol, ended up in Baghdad, dirty as shit, and had 15 mins to get in before chow closed. They refused to let us in at the door, because our "boots and uniforms are dirty and unsightly". They wanted us to go change before allowing us to eat. Luckily, we had an E-7 who just didn't give a shit, forced his way in (we all followed), and when the chow Major came to yell at the E-7, he told him to fuck off.
Fucking military some times.
This.
This right here is the mark of an excellent NCO. The same thing happened to us, and our PSG responded similarly. Probably the worst thing I've ever had happen to me in a chow hall was being forced to leave because it wasn't our FOB. It was just me and my LT, who said nothing, so we left and we were forced to buy something at Subway instead. We were living out of our vehicles at the time, and we were really looking forward to having hot chow for once. I'm all for following the rules, but sometimes you're still a dick for doing so.
Taranis on
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mosssnackYeah right, man, Bishop should go!Good idea!Registered Userregular
Thankfully life on a sub is so god damn busy that no one has time to give a shit about "professionalism."
Heh, reminds me of this one time we pulled into Bremerton, Washington unexpectedly and for us it was cold as shit. We're all used to the Hawaii heat, so this whole freezing our asses off while standing watch was a little new and unpleasant. And of course, no one had packed any appropriate clothing, especially warm uniform items. So we stood watch with our hands in our pockets or stuffed somewhere else. No one really gave us any shit, cept this one First Class.
He was ripping into some seaman who was standing watch with his hands in his pockets and gets interrupted by a Chief telling him to shut his fucking mouth. It's always pretty neat to see those asshole LPO types get that deer in the headlights look.
Oh God, that reminds me of my days standing watch on a sub in Bremerton. Cold, miserable, wet winters. 3 section duty rotation, port and starboard sentry watches. In the rain, soaking wet, every other 4 hours on watch. This went on for months.
Finally one miserable duty day the duty chief is the mean old A-gang senior chief, who rarely stands duty.
He rolls into duty section turnover, looks at the watchbill, turns to the section leader and says "I notice that belowdecks is 3 section while the sentries who stand watch un-sheltered are port and starboard. Fix it now."
The look on the asshole 1st class section leader's face was priceless, as was the several seconds of sputtering before he finally realized the only response was "Aye, senior chief."
-edit-
Oh, and MMCS must have put his dirty A-gang boot up the rest of the duty chief's collective asses, because that policy became permanent after that any time it was cold and/or raining.
Haha, that's awesome. We were standing 4 section duty and had semi-beefy sections at the time, so didn't have to worry about going port and starboard topside watches. However, the topside watches were essentially treated like prince's with the belowdecks being their designated coffee/hot chocolate bitch. All in all, our 4 days there pretty much sucked.
As far as liberty went, we weren't allowed to leave base. period. All we could do is go to that Sam Adam's pub they had, which wasn't terrible. This stemmed from an issue we had in San Diego where this retard ST got so drunk he told the skipper that he was going to skull fuck him. Ahh, gotta love eastpac.
And again I feel great for joining the Coast Guard. Its pretty much E-3 and below that get scolded about nonsense like stuff in pockets or sideburns. I also can't stand military customs and courtesies which thankfully is the bare minimum most of time unless its a special event.
What I think is unprofessional is the rest of you guys walking around the mall or the grocery store in your uniforms.
So glad I didn't have to deal with this kind of crap for the vast majority of my time in the Army.
During time as a grunt, it pretty much just served to let you know which Officers and NCOs were really, really worthless and best ignored whenever possible. My boots are dirty? Yea, I've just walked in from an exercise where I was crawling around in the dirt. You want me to take my cleaning kit out with me? Derp.
Fortunately, here at least, SF soldiers are pretty much exempt from all the petty crap about incorrectly tucked shirts, dirty boots and hands in pockets. Hell, I got about looking homeless, badly trimmed beard and all for a lot of the time and was never hassled about it if I was wearing my beret. Well, other than the occasional "Hey, reckon you could do me a favour and have a shave?" politely asked by my CO.
What I think is unprofessional is the rest of you guys walking around the mall or the grocery store in your uniforms.
This one is situational.
A servicemember who is wearing a smart uniform and conducting himself well when out in town is giving people a good impression of the military, it's excellent free PR.
If the servicemember looks less than sharp, or even worse, if he is behaving poorly, then it looks very bad on the military.
That said, in areas near a base, the members of the public will easily spot any servicemember whether they are in uniform or not.
So glad I didn't have to deal with this kind of crap for the vast majority of my time in the Army.
During time as a grunt, it pretty much just served to let you know which Officers and NCOs were really, really worthless and best ignored whenever possible. My boots are dirty? Yea, I've just walked in from an exercise where I was crawling around in the dirt. You want me to take my cleaning kit out with me? Derp.
Indeed. Between the NCO who tries to make people run a 40:00 5 mile, and the NCO who tries to have the best looking PT formation on the installation, one of those NCOs is running PT focused on reading soldiers for combat and the other is not.
Fortunately, here at least, SF soldiers are pretty much exempt from all the petty crap about incorrectly tucked shirts, dirty boots and hands in pockets. Hell, I got about looking homeless, badly trimmed beard and all for a lot of the time and was never hassled about it if I was wearing my beret. Well, other than the occasional "Hey, reckon you could do me a favour and have a shave?" politely asked by my CO.
I really wish this mentality was the rule and not the exception. SF manages to be squared away without focusing on minutia.
I remember when I was conscripted while I had a job and it cost me upwards of 50.000 DKK in loss of wages. Good times, good times.
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Fuck off and die.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
Military courtesies rag on my damn nerves. I got no problem lockin up in parade rest for top or anyone else if I have to, but I'm well aware that these traditions span hundreds of years.
It may be time to hang em up, unless we're talking ceremonial purposes.
ON THE NOTE OF CEREMONIAL PURPOSES... it looks like the beret is getting knocked down to Class A gear on a few installations, because it's an unwieldy piece of shit that some fucknut thought would bring about esprit de corps, when all it did was minimize the blood, sweat, and tears of those Army service members who earned the right to wear one.
Military courtesies rag on my damn nerves. I got no problem lockin up in parade rest for top or anyone else if I have to, but I'm well aware that these traditions span hundreds of years.
It may be time to hang em up, unless we're talking ceremonial purposes.
ON THE NOTE OF CEREMONIAL PURPOSES... it looks like the beret is getting knocked down to Class A gear on a few installations, because it's an unwieldy piece of shit that some fucknut thought would bring about esprit de corps, when all it did was minimize the blood, sweat, and tears of those Army service members who earned the right to wear one.
DNC is the worst. I say we leave that to the Old Guard.
I loved wearing a beret. Loved it. PCs look stupid in comparison.
Military courtesies rag on my damn nerves. I got no problem lockin up in parade rest for top or anyone else if I have to, but I'm well aware that these traditions span hundreds of years.
It may be time to hang em up, unless we're talking ceremonial purposes.
ON THE NOTE OF CEREMONIAL PURPOSES... it looks like the beret is getting knocked down to Class A gear on a few installations, because it's an unwieldy piece of shit that some fucknut thought would bring about esprit de corps, when all it did was minimize the blood, sweat, and tears of those Army service members who earned the right to wear one.
DNC is the worst. I say we leave that to the Old Guard.
I loved wearing a beret. Loved it. PCs look stupid in comparison.
I like wearing the beret because I know how to shape it and place it. For the rest of the Army however I'd prefer wear their fucking PC's. I mean god damn, my own battalion CSM wears it like a god damn chef hat. Way to set the bar CSM.
I have a few SF buddies and I always comment about how I envy them, because they're out of sight out of mind. I always mention how in my opinion they're the last bastion of real military and they comment that slowly the rest of the Army is seeping in, destroying what's left.
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Going to agree with Modern Man on this one. Talking on a cell phone when it's about business is not unprofessional. Not answering a phone when you have work to do is.
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
ON THE NOTE OF CEREMONIAL PURPOSES... it looks like the beret is getting knocked down to Class A gear on a few installations, because it's an unwieldy piece of shit that some fucknut thought would bring about esprit de corps, when all it did was minimize the blood, sweat, and tears of those Army service members who earned the right to wear one.
There has also been a recent move here to remove berets from regiments. SF were specifically excluded.
I can understand why. I earned that sandy beret and I'd have had to pry it from their cold, dead hands.
And again I feel great for joining the Coast Guard. Its pretty much E-3 and below that get scolded about nonsense like stuff in pockets or sideburns. I also can't stand military customs and courtesies which thankfully is the bare minimum most of time unless its a special event.
What I think is unprofessional is the rest of you guys walking around the mall or the grocery store in your uniforms.
Holy crap, thats still a thing? LOL
@MM, you made the point I was trying to make but failing.
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Spot on.
The military's a big organization, and like any big organization, it'll adopt some retarted traditions just because they've always been traditions. Sort of like how IBM had an incredibly strict dress code for the longest time. For much of its history, though, the military happily ignored trends in corporate America, so it thankfully avoided stupidity emanating from that front. Unfortunately, it seems like younger military officers these days are hell-bent on picking up some of the worst practices of corporate culture. Anyone who has ever had to sit through a military power-point presentation knows what I mean here.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
PowerPoint is not just a tool some use, at least here in Ft. Sill. Most presentations require its use along with the speaking, and 90% of the time the presenters just talk off the slides. There may be nothing more boring than hearing and reading the exact same information.
And if you think the Army is big on courtesies, try sharing the same real estate with Marines like we do. These guys are absolutely merciless when it comes to customs and courtesies.
Death by power point. I have yet to meet a presenter who doesn't just read exactly what's on the slide I'm being shown. It's almost as if, they believe we can't read OR because they're saying it, it's authoritative.
I hate Ft. Sill. I forever hate the state of OK because of Ft. Sill and for pretty similar reasons, I hate NJ because of Ft. Dix, NJ and MS because of Camp Shelby. Sill is where I did basic and AIT, Dix deployment training in 04 and Shelby 07. Those states can die in a fire.
Death by power point. I have yet to meet a presenter who doesn't just read exactly what's on the slide I'm being shown. It's almost as if, they believe we can't read OR because they're saying it, it's authoritative.
I hate Ft. Sill. I forever hate the state of OK because of Ft. Sill and for pretty similar reasons, I hate NJ because of Ft. Dix, NJ and MS because of Camp Shelby. Sill is where I did basic and AIT, Dix deployment training in 04 and Shelby 07. Those states can die in a fire.
It's probably because they'd rather just be giving a lecture but the training guidelines require a powerpoint.
Some genius in the military decided that powerpoints were great and should be used for everything.
That same genius didn't bother to push any training on how to actually fucking use powerpoint.
This philosophy of "adopt practice, don't bother to train anyone on said practice" is an essential rule of Navy culture.
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Going to agree with Modern Man on this one. Talking on a cell phone when it's about business is not unprofessional. Not answering a phone when you have work to do is.
Confidentiality is important for several industries so this really depends on what business you are in and what you are discussing. Allowing anyone within earshot to hear half you conversation could be considered unprofessional not just by a supervisor/client but by professional standards boards .
Newblar on
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Death by power point. I have yet to meet a presenter who doesn't just read exactly what's on the slide I'm being shown. It's almost as if, they believe we can't read OR because they're saying it, it's authoritative.
I hate Ft. Sill. I forever hate the state of OK because of Ft. Sill and for pretty similar reasons, I hate NJ because of Ft. Dix, NJ and MS because of Camp Shelby. Sill is where I did basic and AIT, Dix deployment training in 04 and Shelby 07. Those states can die in a fire.
I also did basic at Sill. Worst two months of my life. Not because of the training, but because of the illness and injury that went along with it. Anyone who has ever been through basic training knows what happens to those who become ill or injured during those two months.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Going to agree with Modern Man on this one. Talking on a cell phone when it's about business is not unprofessional. Not answering a phone when you have work to do is.
Confidentiality is important for several industries so this really depends on what business you are in and what you are discussing. Allowing anyone within earshot to hear half you conversation could be considered unprofessional not just by a supervisor/client but by professional standards boards .
Confidentiality has absolutely nothing to do with professionalism, and everything to do with basic job function. Having a conversation on a cell phone is basically the exact same function as having it in person. If it would be appropriate in the latter instance, it's appropriate in the former.
Have to love death by powerpoint. The way I was taught how to give presentations in the military matches up a lot with how they teach how to give them in the corporate sector. I'd even wager to guess that the corporate sector picked up a lot of how they give their presentations from the military.
I wouldn't blame it on how their taught but rather on how they try and use it and who is doing it. Not very many people are very good at public speaking and if you're bad at it then more than likely your presentation is going to be shit. This gets especially bad when you have some sort of layered, nightmare clusterfuck of powerpoints and diagrams describing abstract ideas like winning hearts and minds. Yeah buddy, your four hour droning presentation on irrigation, sewage, and power supply really was the turning point in the conflict. Wait, you're telling me that people don't like the smell of shit and want to have electricity? Thank god you used a significant fraction of my day to get that point across and then explain why you can't do anything about it because another company is having mechanical difficulties on a portion of their trucks because of supply issues on engine widgets. I look forward to hearing this exact same presentation and extended op order in a week when everyone unfucks themselves.
The walking while chewing/smoking/masturbating is mostly to expedite cleaning. Otherwise, you end up with trash everywhere and you get some poor PFCs having to clean up everyone else's mess. I've also heard shit about maintaining situational awareness and a combat "mindset" sort of like how talking on a cell phone while driving distracts you. I think thats bullshit but I swear to god some officers try and talk up the "combat mindset" like every man woman and dog in the armed forces should be ready to karate chop a terrorist/insurgent/random shitbird at every moment.
The thing is that at least that diagram shows something, or tries to, that can't be easily communicated quickly via speech. The worst are the people who just put their speaking outline up on powerpoint like it's something everyone needs to see. Just give a talk!
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Anyway I thought OP's musing on the interaction of dress and professionalism was interesting because it seems to kind of miss the forest for the trees. "Professional dress" is basically just a way of socially enforcing behavioral standards; there's nothing utilitarian about the thousand dollar suits pictured. I can present a perfectly productive and professional attitude and work ethic on a conference call while wearing a hoodie and sweats, and I have. It's just the in the modern (white collar, office) professional environment, it's useful to have social norms that say "we come here to work, we don't tolerate slacking, etc," and one of the ways we enforce that socially is with a dress code.
There's a reason casual wear day always falls on friday.
In this way a lot of the military's weird customs start to make sense, at least to me as a nonmember. The military needs a much higher level of discipline and obedience than my office does, and one of the ways they create that environment is by saying "get your hand out of your pocket, private!"
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The two pictures of guys in suits on phones do not look professional.
Walking down the street is not an appropriate place for any type of business call. Not only that, they will not be able to put their full attention to the call. If they are engaged in a business call they will be significantly less effective than if they were acting professionally by taking the call in a more appropriate setting.
Sometimes you need to take a call while walking down the street for business. Most of the time, you don't.
That's an odd argument. Most people are perfectly capable of multi-tasking. There's nothing inappropriate in taking a call while going from one business to another. Not being responsive to a client or colleague is more unprofessional, IMO.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Going to agree with Modern Man on this one. Talking on a cell phone when it's about business is not unprofessional. Not answering a phone when you have work to do is.
Confidentiality is important for several industries so this really depends on what business you are in and what you are discussing. Allowing anyone within earshot to hear half you conversation could be considered unprofessional not just by a supervisor/client but by professional standards boards .
Confidentiality has absolutely nothing to do with professionalism, and everything to do with basic job function. Having a conversation on a cell phone is basically the exact same function as having it in person. If it would be appropriate in the latter instance, it's appropriate in the former.
In both the fields I am in it is considered an issue of professionalism and falls under the expectations we have for professional conduct, not under basic job functions. This may differ by industry or even job which is why I did not make my message inclusive of every possible industry. Talking on the phone is not the issue, discussing private matters in front of other people is. Hell if you could make a smoke signal private and the person you were communicating had no issue with it then go nuts.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Anyway I thought OP's musing on the interaction of dress and professionalism was interesting because it seems to kind of miss the forest for the trees. "Professional dress" is basically just a way of socially enforcing behavioral standards; there's nothing utilitarian about the thousand dollar suits pictured. I can present a perfectly productive and professional attitude and work ethic on a conference call while wearing a hoodie and sweats, and I have. It's just the in the modern (white collar, office) professional environment, it's useful to have social norms that say "we come here to work, we don't tolerate slacking, etc," and one of the ways we enforce that socially is with a dress code.
There's a reason casual wear day always falls on friday.
In this way a lot of the military's weird customs start to make sense, at least to me as a nonmember. The military needs a much higher level of discipline and obedience than my office does, and one of the ways they create that environment is by saying "get your hand out of your pocket, private!"
Well, actually...
All the uniform nitpicks in the world won't enforce proper discipline. It's punishment (Physical corrections or time sink punishments) that does that in garrison. In combat, discipline is a whole different kettle of fish, and will set in firmly with survival instincts (if it does at all).
And indeed, I agree that we in the Military need our discipline. However, the discipline and management from above (At least here in Sill) seems to be concerned with things that are trivial, and moreso things that shouldn't be disciplined. For example, our IBA (basically, body armor) is made and set up so people can attach their ammo and grenade pouches in a way that works for them... but Ft. Sill has issued a standard layout, and some people simply just hate the way it works for differing reasons.
Our company used to embark on a 5 mile run on Mondays and play ultimate football four days a week, with the occasional pushup/situp routine. Twice a week, if the other team scored, it was 10-20 pushups for the loser team, depending on what our first sergeant thought. Our company average PT score was a 270, and we had absolutely no PT test failures or overweight soldiers in the entire company. Despite these figures, and despite having one of the best PT averages and weight control figures on post, we were told to stop doing this, because there was a proper form of PT. Because proper PT instills discipline, apparently, was the reason. This freewheeling sports PT made us look unprofessional, despite the fact that our results and combat readiness were beyond the average.
So, no, discipline isn't derived from petty spot corrections. Pride and real punishment can instill discipline, but stopping someone because they took a few steps while talking on a cell phone, because they're smoking a few meters outside a smoking area (despite it being fifty feet from a building), and rabbling on about discipline makes you look like a nanny nco, and a douchebag to boot, despite the fact you're in the right. I don't down an nco for making spot corrections that seem ridiculous to me, as they're doing their job, but some people do. And some nco's take their role in this way too seriously, when there are many more important things to worry about and to get worked over about.
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You might want to do a little research on opsec.
Heh, reminds me of this one time we pulled into Bremerton, Washington unexpectedly and for us it was cold as shit. We're all used to the Hawaii heat, so this whole freezing our asses off while standing watch was a little new and unpleasant. And of course, no one had packed any appropriate clothing, especially warm uniform items. So we stood watch with our hands in our pockets or stuffed somewhere else. No one really gave us any shit, cept this one First Class.
He was ripping into some seaman who was standing watch with his hands in his pockets and gets interrupted by a Chief telling him to shut his fucking mouth. It's always pretty neat to see those asshole LPO types get that deer in the headlights look.
bnet: moss*1454
Oh God, that reminds me of my days standing watch on a sub in Bremerton. Cold, miserable, wet winters. 3 section duty rotation, port and starboard sentry watches. In the rain, soaking wet, every other 4 hours on watch. This went on for months.
Finally one miserable duty day the duty chief is the mean old A-gang senior chief, who rarely stands duty.
He rolls into duty section turnover, looks at the watchbill, turns to the section leader and says "I notice that belowdecks is 3 section while the sentries who stand watch un-sheltered are port and starboard. Fix it now."
The look on the asshole 1st class section leader's face was priceless, as was the several seconds of sputtering before he finally realized the only response was "Aye, senior chief."
-edit-
Oh, and MMCS must have put his dirty A-gang boot up the rest of the duty chief's collective asses, because that policy became permanent after that any time it was cold and/or raining.
I remember the old PT's, and the fucking winter covers with the ear flaps that no one is allowed to use. OR the booney hat they issue you only to tell you, you can't wear it because it looks unprofessional. The PT belts that had to be constantly worn while in Kuwait and yet still get combat pay. Such BS.
I smoke and walk, I talk on the phone and walk, I really don't give a shit who see's me do it. If someone tells me to stop, I'll just put out the cigarette/end the call, walk a bit till their out of ear/eye shot, then resume what I was doing, but the only installations I've personally had problems with that are Marine Corps ones.
When we where in Kuwait, they told us we where no longer allowed to wear the booney. So I "lost" mine, during a vehicle fire. "Well then you need to buy a new one to replace it!" "Actually, it was lost during a patrol when our vehicle came on fire, so no, no I don't." I was the only one in our Company then wearing a booney hat.
I recall towards the end of my 1st tour in 05 they started having chow hall nazi's check for uniform cleanliness. We had just come off a 13hr patrol, ended up in Baghdad, dirty as shit, and had 15 mins to get in before chow closed. They refused to let us in at the door, because our "boots and uniforms are dirty and unsightly". They wanted us to go change before allowing us to eat. Luckily, we had an E-7 who just didn't give a shit, forced his way in (we all followed), and when the chow Major came to yell at the E-7, he told him to fuck off.
Fucking military some times.
This.
This right here is the mark of an excellent NCO. The same thing happened to us, and our PSG responded similarly. Probably the worst thing I've ever had happen to me in a chow hall was being forced to leave because it wasn't our FOB. It was just me and my LT, who said nothing, so we left and we were forced to buy something at Subway instead. We were living out of our vehicles at the time, and we were really looking forward to having hot chow for once. I'm all for following the rules, but sometimes you're still a dick for doing so.
Haha, that's awesome. We were standing 4 section duty and had semi-beefy sections at the time, so didn't have to worry about going port and starboard topside watches. However, the topside watches were essentially treated like prince's with the belowdecks being their designated coffee/hot chocolate bitch. All in all, our 4 days there pretty much sucked.
As far as liberty went, we weren't allowed to leave base. period. All we could do is go to that Sam Adam's pub they had, which wasn't terrible. This stemmed from an issue we had in San Diego where this retard ST got so drunk he told the skipper that he was going to skull fuck him. Ahh, gotta love eastpac.
bnet: moss*1454
Yessss. I was waiting for this one
What I think is unprofessional is the rest of you guys walking around the mall or the grocery store in your uniforms.
During time as a grunt, it pretty much just served to let you know which Officers and NCOs were really, really worthless and best ignored whenever possible. My boots are dirty? Yea, I've just walked in from an exercise where I was crawling around in the dirt. You want me to take my cleaning kit out with me? Derp.
Fortunately, here at least, SF soldiers are pretty much exempt from all the petty crap about incorrectly tucked shirts, dirty boots and hands in pockets. Hell, I got about looking homeless, badly trimmed beard and all for a lot of the time and was never hassled about it if I was wearing my beret. Well, other than the occasional "Hey, reckon you could do me a favour and have a shave?" politely asked by my CO.
This one is situational.
A servicemember who is wearing a smart uniform and conducting himself well when out in town is giving people a good impression of the military, it's excellent free PR.
If the servicemember looks less than sharp, or even worse, if he is behaving poorly, then it looks very bad on the military.
That said, in areas near a base, the members of the public will easily spot any servicemember whether they are in uniform or not.
Indeed. Between the NCO who tries to make people run a 40:00 5 mile, and the NCO who tries to have the best looking PT formation on the installation, one of those NCOs is running PT focused on reading soldiers for combat and the other is not.
I really wish this mentality was the rule and not the exception. SF manages to be squared away without focusing on minutia.
It may be time to hang em up, unless we're talking ceremonial purposes.
ON THE NOTE OF CEREMONIAL PURPOSES... it looks like the beret is getting knocked down to Class A gear on a few installations, because it's an unwieldy piece of shit that some fucknut thought would bring about esprit de corps, when all it did was minimize the blood, sweat, and tears of those Army service members who earned the right to wear one.
DNC is the worst. I say we leave that to the Old Guard.
I loved wearing a beret. Loved it. PCs look stupid in comparison.
I like wearing the beret because I know how to shape it and place it. For the rest of the Army however I'd prefer wear their fucking PC's. I mean god damn, my own battalion CSM wears it like a god damn chef hat. Way to set the bar CSM.
I have a few SF buddies and I always comment about how I envy them, because they're out of sight out of mind. I always mention how in my opinion they're the last bastion of real military and they comment that slowly the rest of the Army is seeping in, destroying what's left.
Weird military rules ITT. It seems like the military adopts some of the worst aspects of corporate culture while adding their own unique stupidity to the mix.
Rigorous Scholarship
Going to agree with Modern Man on this one. Talking on a cell phone when it's about business is not unprofessional. Not answering a phone when you have work to do is.
Spot on.
There has also been a recent move here to remove berets from regiments. SF were specifically excluded.
I can understand why. I earned that sandy beret and I'd have had to pry it from their cold, dead hands.
Holy crap, thats still a thing? LOL
@MM, you made the point I was trying to make but failing.
Rigorous Scholarship
And if you think the Army is big on courtesies, try sharing the same real estate with Marines like we do. These guys are absolutely merciless when it comes to customs and courtesies.
I hate Ft. Sill. I forever hate the state of OK because of Ft. Sill and for pretty similar reasons, I hate NJ because of Ft. Dix, NJ and MS because of Camp Shelby. Sill is where I did basic and AIT, Dix deployment training in 04 and Shelby 07. Those states can die in a fire.
It's probably because they'd rather just be giving a lecture but the training guidelines require a powerpoint.
Some genius in the military decided that powerpoints were great and should be used for everything.
That same genius didn't bother to push any training on how to actually fucking use powerpoint.
This philosophy of "adopt practice, don't bother to train anyone on said practice" is an essential rule of Navy culture.
Confidentiality is important for several industries so this really depends on what business you are in and what you are discussing. Allowing anyone within earshot to hear half you conversation could be considered unprofessional not just by a supervisor/client but by professional standards boards .
I also did basic at Sill. Worst two months of my life. Not because of the training, but because of the illness and injury that went along with it. Anyone who has ever been through basic training knows what happens to those who become ill or injured during those two months.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Confidentiality has absolutely nothing to do with professionalism, and everything to do with basic job function. Having a conversation on a cell phone is basically the exact same function as having it in person. If it would be appropriate in the latter instance, it's appropriate in the former.
We Have Met the Enemy and He Is PowerPoint
"A PowerPoint diagram meant to portray the complexity of American strategy in Afghanistan certainly succeeded in that aim."
on thread:
I'm confused as to how walking and smoking appears less professional than standing around smoking.
I wouldn't blame it on how their taught but rather on how they try and use it and who is doing it. Not very many people are very good at public speaking and if you're bad at it then more than likely your presentation is going to be shit. This gets especially bad when you have some sort of layered, nightmare clusterfuck of powerpoints and diagrams describing abstract ideas like winning hearts and minds. Yeah buddy, your four hour droning presentation on irrigation, sewage, and power supply really was the turning point in the conflict. Wait, you're telling me that people don't like the smell of shit and want to have electricity? Thank god you used a significant fraction of my day to get that point across and then explain why you can't do anything about it because another company is having mechanical difficulties on a portion of their trucks because of supply issues on engine widgets. I look forward to hearing this exact same presentation and extended op order in a week when everyone unfucks themselves.
The walking while chewing/smoking/masturbating is mostly to expedite cleaning. Otherwise, you end up with trash everywhere and you get some poor PFCs having to clean up everyone else's mess. I've also heard shit about maintaining situational awareness and a combat "mindset" sort of like how talking on a cell phone while driving distracts you. I think thats bullshit but I swear to god some officers try and talk up the "combat mindset" like every man woman and dog in the armed forces should be ready to karate chop a terrorist/insurgent/random shitbird at every moment.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
There's a reason casual wear day always falls on friday.
In this way a lot of the military's weird customs start to make sense, at least to me as a nonmember. The military needs a much higher level of discipline and obedience than my office does, and one of the ways they create that environment is by saying "get your hand out of your pocket, private!"
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
In both the fields I am in it is considered an issue of professionalism and falls under the expectations we have for professional conduct, not under basic job functions. This may differ by industry or even job which is why I did not make my message inclusive of every possible industry. Talking on the phone is not the issue, discussing private matters in front of other people is. Hell if you could make a smoke signal private and the person you were communicating had no issue with it then go nuts.
Well, actually...
All the uniform nitpicks in the world won't enforce proper discipline. It's punishment (Physical corrections or time sink punishments) that does that in garrison. In combat, discipline is a whole different kettle of fish, and will set in firmly with survival instincts (if it does at all).
And indeed, I agree that we in the Military need our discipline. However, the discipline and management from above (At least here in Sill) seems to be concerned with things that are trivial, and moreso things that shouldn't be disciplined. For example, our IBA (basically, body armor) is made and set up so people can attach their ammo and grenade pouches in a way that works for them... but Ft. Sill has issued a standard layout, and some people simply just hate the way it works for differing reasons.
Our company used to embark on a 5 mile run on Mondays and play ultimate football four days a week, with the occasional pushup/situp routine. Twice a week, if the other team scored, it was 10-20 pushups for the loser team, depending on what our first sergeant thought. Our company average PT score was a 270, and we had absolutely no PT test failures or overweight soldiers in the entire company. Despite these figures, and despite having one of the best PT averages and weight control figures on post, we were told to stop doing this, because there was a proper form of PT. Because proper PT instills discipline, apparently, was the reason. This freewheeling sports PT made us look unprofessional, despite the fact that our results and combat readiness were beyond the average.
So, no, discipline isn't derived from petty spot corrections. Pride and real punishment can instill discipline, but stopping someone because they took a few steps while talking on a cell phone, because they're smoking a few meters outside a smoking area (despite it being fifty feet from a building), and rabbling on about discipline makes you look like a nanny nco, and a douchebag to boot, despite the fact you're in the right. I don't down an nco for making spot corrections that seem ridiculous to me, as they're doing their job, but some people do. And some nco's take their role in this way too seriously, when there are many more important things to worry about and to get worked over about.