...I'm a little jealous that I can't muster the same sort of, eyes-pointing-in-different-directions, pants-on-head, this-is-the-best-and-if-you-say-different-I-will-fight-you-in-the-parking-lot enthusiasm for pretty much anything, much less something as (let's face it) ultimately trivial as video games or comic books or movies or whatever...
Look, all I want is something entertaining, that I won't hate myself for owning later.
So how. In gods name. Is super hero. 90% of the western comic book industry?
because that's what sells
people like familiar characters and entertainment
Interestingly enough, if you try to pitch a superhero comic to a publisher in America, they will reject you before you even show them your art.
well yeah I doubt there's any reason for them to take on new material when their current stuff will often sell on name alone
That's the case for Marvel and DC, but the countless other publishers in America won't touch it because there's no money in it unless you're already a superstar writer who has spent years building a fanbase writing for Marvel or DC.
well that's a good sign
by the way, who else read Persepolis? I liked it, how about you, potential person who also read it?
...I'm a little jealous that I can't muster the same sort of, eyes-pointing-in-different-directions, pants-on-head, this-is-the-best-and-if-you-say-different-I-will-fight-you-in-the-parking-lot enthusiasm for pretty much anything, much less something as (let's face it) ultimately trivial as video games or comic books or movies or whatever...
Look, all I want is something entertaining, that I won't hate myself for owning later.
and that isn't something necessarily superhero based comics can't be
Definition of insanity, trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Sure, but reading completely different stories by completely different authors isn't exactly doing the same thing. Hell, the shittiest writer can fluke out a great story every once in awhile.
It is difficult, but one day you shall oversimplify too!
it seems unattainable! oh woe! oh despair!
<Insert genre here> is all the same and sucks!
Oversimplification achieved!
So how. In gods name. Is super hero. 90% of the western comic book industry?
Probably for the same reason that robots, highschoolers, ninjas, and some combination of the three make up 90% of all Japanese popular entertainment.
Of course, these are not invalid genres and sub-genres. You can still find goodqualityexamples of each of them. Examples that, if you were complaining that these genres were all exactly the same, would be extremely silly to dismiss based on their covers.
Yes I mostly responded to this post because my name was in it.
It is difficult, but one day you shall oversimplify too!
it seems unattainable! oh woe! oh despair!
<Insert genre here> is all the same and sucks!
Oversimplification achieved!
So how. In gods name. Is super hero. 90% of the western comic book industry?
Probably for the same reason that robots, highschoolers, ninjas, and some combination of the three make up 90% of all Japanese popular entertainment.
Of course, these are not invalid genres and sub-genres. You can still find goodqualityexamples of each of them. Examples that, if you were complaining that these genres were all exactly the same, would be extremely silly to dismiss based on their covers.
Yes I mostly responded to this post because my name was in it.
Probably for the same reason that robots, highschoolers, ninjas, and some combination of the three make up 90% of all Japanese popular entertainment.
Of course, these are not invalid genres and sub-genres. You can still find goodqualityexamples of each of them. Examples that, if you were complaining that these genres were all exactly the same, would be extremely silly to dismiss based on their covers.
Yes I mostly responded to this post because my name was in it.
Probably for the same reason that robots, highschoolers, ninjas, and some combination of the three make up 90% of all Japanese popular entertainment.
Of course, these are not invalid genres and sub-genres. You can still find goodqualityexamples of each of them. Examples that, if you were complaining that these genres were all exactly the same, would be extremely silly to dismiss based on their covers.
Yes I mostly responded to this post because my name was in it.
Ha ha. I won't argue with that. There is quite a bit of that in anime.
But I'm not dismissing anything. I plan on purchasing many of these recommendations, and As a matter of fact I've read many many super hero comics over the years, but the fact remains, I have yet to enjoy one enough to keep it, or wish I had spent my money on something else.
Or rather almost every western comic I've every purchased.
Thats why I'm looking for more. There has to be something palatable to me.
As a matter of fact, I had entirely given up on western comics, that is until the halo graphic novel came out and discovered Tsutomu nihei. O wait, he's not western...
It sounds like you just don't want superhero comics to exists, which is stupid. They are mainstream because they are what created the culture of comics in the first place, which is why they're still around and why they'll endure.
Having such a specific ire agasint them is like saying Fisrt Person Shooters shouldn't exist and that all games should be Chess.
I understand you want comics that are perhaps more experimental, or maybe more unconventional or full of more pathos. The problem isn't that these comics aren't out there, it's that you just need to get out there and look for them. One of the local shops I go to here, Isotope Comics, always features dozens of the types of book you're (I think) after.
I couldn't tell you their names, they are simple just the types of books that are the mainstays of his store. They are mostly slice-of-life style comics, but those tend to be the ones I really dig the most these days. You really gotta stop calling superhero books uninspired if you don't really know what you're talking about, and only feel that way because they are the most accessible.
I have nothing against the existence of super hero comics, or even that they are mainstream. I just don't like them.
The issue is my preferred visual style, which is so narrow that I have a hard time finding anything interesting. So yes, I vastly over generalize, because my taste is so specific.
I like experimental, but moreso, I like a few particular styles of art. I don't like the super hero genre because its iconoclast visuals are abrasive, stark. Noone poses like that, noone looks like that, noone speaks like that, so why would I read it just because there are words over visuals I dislike?
I do go to a local store (when I'm at home), but the comic book stores where I live "heroes and dragons" and I forget the other one, all they have is a scant collection of only the most popular manga, and every issue of every super hero comic ever. And thats about it, other than magic: the gathering cards. So my options were quite sparing.
And as far as online goes, amazon only insists on the most popular selections that people have purchased.
Its not that I haven't looked, its that I keep getting the same recommendations over and over.
This is wierd, for some reason the wiki for FLCL was open when I opened internet explorer. That was a fun series.
Probably for the same reason that robots, highschoolers, ninjas, and some combination of the three make up 90% of all Japanese popular entertainment.
Of course, these are not invalid genres and sub-genres. You can still find goodqualityexamples of each of them. Examples that, if you were complaining that these genres were all exactly the same, would be extremely silly to dismiss based on their covers.
Yes I mostly responded to this post because my name was in it.
Ha ha. I won't argue with that. There is quite a bit of that in anime.
But I'm not dismissing anything. I plan on purchasing many of these recommendations, and As a matter of fact I've read many many super hero comics over the years, but the fact remains, I have yet to enjoy one enough to keep it, or wish I had spent my money on something else.
Or rather almost every western comic I've every purchased.
Thats why I'm looking for more. There has to be something palatable to me.
As a matter of fact, I had entirely given up on western comics, that is until the halo graphic novel came out and discovered Tsutomu nihei. O wait, he's not western...
You're a big fucking liar. You are definitely dismissing dozens of comics just because they happen to have superpowered people with costumes in them, regardless of what they actually do. That's what you've been doing just now. Every time someone tried to recommend you some high-profile, critically-acclaimed, high-quality comics you'd dismiss them utterly and insult whoever recommended them if those comics happened to somehow be related to Batman or Superman or Marvel and DC in any way.
You're just foaming at the mouth and raging about how much you hate superhero comics and you're alternately ignoring and insulting the people who are trying to tell you that you're oversimplifying and you really should make sure you're better informed before you go off on these rants.
And god! The bullshit you to pass off as opinion! You don't know anything about comics, superhero or otherwise. You say American comics haven't changed at all in 50 years. They have! Even superhero comics! Especially superhero comics. Comics have gone from standard kiddy Saturday morning villain-punching to dealing with personal issues to dealing with real-life issues and any combination of those things.
What's worse is that you go on and on and on about how Japan is so original when compared to western superhero comics, even though you couldn't be further from the truth. Most japanese comics are more mind-numbingly derivative and cliché than the worst superhero bullshit. You have hundreds of cartoons and comics pandering to disgusting closet pedophiles because that's what makes them the most money. You have hundreds of mindless Naruto clones with interchangeable protagonists and antagonists because that's what makes money!
There's only a handful of comics that are actually original. Of the main shonen books, only One Piece is really any good, and it also happens to be the one that breaks the most from the norm.
You do not know anything about comics, superhero, indie or otherwise. You are unaware of the radical changes comics (even superhero comics!) have gone through over the years, and whenever someone calls you on your ignorance you ignore them and chatter like an insane person. It's like you're trying to raise your voice to drown out theirs, even though you're typing. You're not just stupid, but you're out of your fucking mind.
You think you're an expert on everything you like to complain about, even though you couldn't possibly be further from the truth. You don't know anything. None of your complaints are valid and you're the real problem here, not whatever comic you might be reading. You want Japanese shonen comics, except you want American versions! Or something? You certainly don't want superhero comics because they're all the same and super derivative and nobody ever tried anything new in superhero comics and nobody who ever touched a superhero comic ever made anything worthwhile in any other genre because they were obviously tainted by superhero comics. You don't want derivative superhero comics, you want derivative Japanese comics but American!
Hey, I've got the perfect recommendation for you, Ninjai. Why not try Incarnate? It's basically exactly what you asked for, you know-nothing so-and-so.
You complain and you complain and you complain about things you are completely ignorant about and you just keep on going and you try to justify your opinions, even though there's nothing there to justify because none of your opinions stem from facts. Or at least none of your opinions are based on facts that are true in anything resembling the universe we inhabit.
You're just foaming at the mouth and raging about how much you hate superhero comics and you're alternately ignoring and insulting the people who are trying to tell you that you're oversimplifying and you really should make sure you're better informed before you go off on these rants.
What?
I have no hard feelings. I don't appreciate being told how I feel about something.
What's worse is that you go on and on and on about how Japan is so original when compared to western superhero comics
There's only a handful of comics that are actually original. Of the main shonen books, only One Piece is really any good, and it also happens to be the one that breaks the most from the norm.
I never went on and on. I listed a few as reference for what I like. I don't even like manga that much.
You are grossly misrepresenting your actions. You did go on and on and on about how much you disliked superhero comics and how they were all the same and nobody ever tried anything new, and you either ignored everyone who tried to tell you that you were wrong in a civil manner, or you'd blow up at them and go "RAH RAH RAH NO COMICS SUPERHERO COMICS BAD RAH".
You also made several mentions of Japan and how comics about people with superpowers don't necessarily involve superheroes there etcetera and how they have a better system with more creativity and so on, despite the fact that those specific comics you mentioned are different from superhero comics only in that they're from Japan, and people wear slightly less spandex in them. They're still just as derivative as Western superhero comics, and in some aspects they are even moreso.
You went on and on and on about how bad superhero comics were and how stupid they are, alternately ignoring or being extremely rude to the people who tried their best to recommend you comics that you might have liked if you'd given them a chance, even if they were superhero comics or not.
It really shouldn't be that big a surprise to you that you finally annoyed someone enough with your relentless, painfully self-assured ignorance that they called you on your bullshit.
You have a big habit of forming opinions based on a feeling you have and then defending that opinion to the death, despite the fact that you never, ever actually try to find any facts or anything to support your opinions beyond that initial gut reaction, which hardly ever seems to be based on any actual event anyway. Your opinions are completely arbitrary, basically. This makes it extremely frustrating to talk to you about anything because you're always operating on a completely different (often quite stupid and misinformed) level, and your responses only rarely relate to the discussion at hand in any way.
Man, you know what Im really sick of... First person Shooting games with guns. When are they gonna make a first person shooting game without guns?
There are stigmas that come with territory. You cant expect variety out of a nitch, which is why its a nitch.... its a very specific taste, for a very specific group. Are you really expecting to find a super hero comic with no villan, no powers, no love interest?
When you take one of those things away, it stops belonging to that genre and it becomes something else.... like Mirrors Edge.
To use an example of your own. Please find me a Ninja anime with no Throwing Stars, swords or villains with special powers or skills.
You are grossly misrepresenting your actions. You did go on and on and on about how much you disliked superhero comics and how they were all the same and nobody ever tried anything new, and you either ignored everyone who tried to tell you that you were wrong in a civil manner, or you'd blow up at them and go "RAH RAH RAH NO COMICS SUPERHERO COMICS BAD RAH".
I just got done rereading everything I said, and you're right. I said they were the same.
But, with my responses I had every intention of getting comic recommendations that weren't super hero related.
You also made several mentions of Japan and how comics about people with superpowers don't necessarily involve superheroes there etcetera and how they have a better system with more creativity and so on, despite the fact that those specific comics you mentioned are different from superhero comics only in that they're from Japan, and people wear slightly less spandex in them. They're still just as derivative as Western superhero comics, and in some aspects they are even moreso.
I did mention manga few times.
My only point in mentioning them is that there is more to "super powered fiction" than spandex.
You went on and on and on about how bad superhero comics were and how stupid they are, alternately ignoring or being extremely rude to the people who tried their best to recommend you comics that you might have liked if you'd given them a chance, even if they were superhero comics or not.
Did you not read how I was googling and searching online stores for their recommendations?
It really shouldn't be that big a surprise to you that you finally annoyed someone enough with your relentless, painfully self-assured ignorance that they called you on your bullshit.
Well it is a suprise. Maybe it shouldn't be.
And I won't mention the box of 300 single issues I have of marvel comics from my childhood. That got left in the rain.
You have a big habit of forming opinions based on a feeling you have and then defending that opinion to the death, despite the fact that you never, ever actually try to find any facts or anything to support your opinions beyond that initial gut reaction, which hardly ever seems to be based on any actual event anyway. Your opinions are completely arbitrary, basically. This makes it extremely frustrating to talk to you about anything because you're always operating on a completely different (often quite stupid and misinformed) level, and your responses only rarely relate to the discussion at hand in any way.
Wait... do you know me? Like, have we met in person? How could you have possibly gathered that from the broadly painted opinions I have strewn about on this forum?
I do defend my opinions. Because I believe in them. If I didn't, I wouldn't have those opinions.
You can keep berating me all you like, the fact of the matter is, I had no idea that I would get this kind of reaction.
I was seriously almost brought to tears by your previous post. I can only say I'm sorry so many times. Its your choice whether you'll forgive.
Well gee whiz, I didn't mean to make you cry dude. In my defense, I did figure that someone on the Penny-Arcade forums would be a bit thicker skinned than that. Still, didn't mean to almost make you cry, wow. Sorry about that. Not super sorry, because you were being a huge dick, but still kinda sorry.
You did ask for non-superhero comic recommendations, and people did give them to you. And you ignored most of them or you yelled at them for the recommendations not being mainstream enough or something, like it's their fault that superhero comics are more mainstream in the US.
People also recommended some superhero comics to you, but the specific comics they recommended didn't suffer from any of the problems you have with superhero comics. As far as people could tell, anyway, because you generally just rambled on and on instead of actually stating any clear reasons why you dislike them. Most of these comics, by the way, only happened to have superheroes in them. Most of them didn't really follow any kind of standard superhero storylines. Examples being Grant Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol.
And yes, you did say you were putting together a list of stuff you were going to check out, while simultaneously being rude and insulting again, and ignoring half of the suggestions.
I don't know you in person, but I'm basing that statement on what I've seen of you on the internet. You had a similarly uninformed opinion on 3D films, and you ignored almost all of the counterarguments people sent your way in the discussion that followed.
It's not about forgiveness, you're being ridiculous and melodramatic. It's about listening to other people, thinking and not sticking to your uninformed opinions like they're the only thing that keep you from drowning in the vast ocean of knowledge. You could try to think about and articulate your points better and not rudely dismiss anything someone might say simply because what they have to say is somehow at odds with your initial assumption.
You could try not exploding into insane, incoherent rant after insane, incoherent rant in something that only bears a passing resemblance to any human language whenever someone disagrees with your original (almost invariably incredibly caustic) statement.
I don't know. Do these sound like good ideas to you, maybe?
Well gee whiz, I didn't mean to make you cry dude. In my defense, I did figure that someone on the Penny-Arcade forums would be a bit thicker skinned than that. Still, didn't mean to almost make you cry, wow. Sorry about that. Not super sorry, because you were being a huge dick, but still kinda sorry.
Thanks. I guess?
You want to talk about thick skin. I'm in a forward fucking deployed environment. What can I say... I'm a little stressed already.
Maybe that came through in my posts. I don't know...
The point is that I like this forum and the people here, you're one of them, and getting that kind of response from someone I like was... unexpected.
You did ask for non-superhero comic recommendations, and people did give them to you. And you ignored most of them or you yelled at them for the recommendations not being mainstream enough or something, like it's their fault that superhero comics are more mainstream in the US.
I don't care whats mainstream. I take pride in the fact that I don't like what others do, merely because someone else said it was good.
People also recommended some superhero comics to you, but the specific comics they recommended didn't suffer from any of the problems you have with superhero comics. As far as people could tell, anyway, because you generally just rambled on and on instead of actually stating any clear reasons why you dislike them. Most of these comics, by the way, only happened to have superheroes in them. Most of them didn't really follow any kind of standard superhero storylines. Examples being Grant Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol.
I thought I was pretty clear. The art direction looks the same. I'm positive I said that many times. I don't give half a shit about the story. If it doesn't look good, why would words suddenly make it good?
And yes, you did say you were putting together a list of stuff you were going to check out, while simultaneously being rude and insulting again, and ignoring half of the suggestions.
I also reread others posts when I reread my posts. I looked at every single recommendation in google, amazon, borders...
However, I did NOT specifically respond to each recomendation here. That doesn't mean I ignored it.
I don't know you in person, but I'm basing that statement on what I've seen of you on the internet. You had a similarly uninformed opinion on 3D films, and you ignored almost all of the counterarguments people sent your way in the discussion that followed.
I didn't ignore anyone's argument simply because I was not swayed by them.
This is part of debate/argument. You disagree, and you list why. The opponent follows. Etc.
It's not about forgiveness, you're being ridiculous and melodramatic. It's about listening to other people, thinking and not sticking to your uninformed opinions like they're the only thing that keep you from drowning in the vast ocean of knowledge. You could try to think about and articulate your points better and not rudely dismiss anything someone might say simply because what they have to say is somehow at odds with your initial assumption.
I am on this forum for the express purpose of learning from others. Just because an opposing opinion is presented, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
You could try not exploding into insane, incoherent rant after insane, incoherent rant in something that only bears a passing resemblance to any human language whenever someone disagrees with your original (almost invariably incredibly caustic) statement.
I don't know. Do these sound like good ideas to you, maybe?
Which rant are you talking about? All of the posts that I made were pretty short by comparison to some other responses.
I could definitely do with clearer arguments... as that seems to be the problem right now.
(Wading in through dis vitriol to say a thing about Bone: do pick up the One Volume Edition, but do not [in my opinion] fork out for the later, colored one. Jeff Smith is a master of black-and-white, and nicely done as the retroactive colors may be they just look wrong with the comic.)
People also recommended some superhero comics to you, but the specific comics they recommended didn't suffer from any of the problems you have with superhero comics. As far as people could tell, anyway, because you generally just rambled on and on instead of actually stating any clear reasons why you dislike them. Most of these comics, by the way, only happened to have superheroes in them. Most of them didn't really follow any kind of standard superhero storylines. Examples being Grant Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol.
I thought I was pretty clear. The art direction looks the same. I'm positive I said that many times. I don't give half a shit about the story. If it doesn't look good, why would words suddenly make it good?
I was going to be more civil until I read this.
You don't know anything about comics or visual storytelling of any kind. You're also still being stupid or you're a liar, because no, art direction has nothing to do with any of this and even if it did, you'd be wrong about Animal Man and Doom Patrol because they don't really look much like other superhero comics at all. In fact, all of the "superhero comics" that were recommended to you have their own unique look, with the only similarities between them generally being that they are comics featuring people. Like most comics, in fact.
You don't know anything.
Also, you seem to be proud of the fact that you dislike stuff that other people like. Well aren't you Mister Special The Unique Snowflake. What a bunch of pretentious bullshit. You're proud that you don't think something is good just because someone told you it was good. Okay. Fuck that and fuck you. You don't think something is good because someone told you it was, that's fair. You also don't think something is good or could be good because someone told you it was. That's not fair, and in fact it's stupid and insulting and screw you.
And yes, I know you weren't looking for superhero comics, but your justification for that was rambling and completely without thought or logic, and people recommended those books because they didn't want you to stay misinformed. They only wanted to help you broaden your horizons and introduce you to a greater sea of entertainment because they saw you were stuck in a shallow, stagnant pool of ignorance.
You don't have to agree with an opposing opinion simply because it is presented to you (although chances are you'd be better off if you did because it's unlikely to be a worse opinion than the one you came up with yourself) and nowhere did I even imply that you should do this. What I did say was that you should listen to other people's opinions and their justification thereof and weigh it against your own opinions (or what passes for them) and your justification thereof (or what passes for it) so you can make an informed decision like a normal human being. This as opposed to your current method of blindly dismissing all other opinions and whatever arguments support them if they don't lign up with your current, terrible opinions that are based on nothing more than random emotional responses.
You say you're here to learn from other people. Other people try to teach you things and you ignore and insult them because they're not giving you exactly what you asked . You can't just learn stuff that supports your original viewpoints. Learning and reality do not work that way. Grow up, you child.
You don't know anything, your tastes are shallow and you're not sorry at all.
I'm pretty upset I didn't get into this sooner - I work at a comic shop, I could give a bajiliion suggestions, ninjai!
A lot of people come in and talk about Marvel/DC, and they see that my Pick of the Week is "always one of the weird ones" when actually, they're AMAZING! I always pick the lesser known titles because I want to spread the word about other stuff.
If you want to read comics and are kind of 'anti-super' (a lot of people are!), focus on publishers. Steer away from Marvel/DC (though there ARE some pretty amazing stories) and aim for companies like Vertigo (personal favorite that is actually run by DC), Image, IDW, Top Shelf, :01 first second...
Tam mentioned Persepolis- excellent stuff! That book really made me feel like I had it easy.
I'd recommend Daytripper, or anything by Fabio Moon & Gabriel Ba. Amazing writing, amazing artwork.
Jeff Lemire's Sweet Tooth is like nothing else - post-apocalyptic deliciousness.
Brian Wood is also pretty fantastic. He does DMZ, Demo, Northlanders (BRILLIANT viking comic), and Fight For Tomorrow. He's a great writer and always chooses amazing artists for his stories.
Robert Kirkman does The Walking Dead, Astounding Wolf-man and soon another comic about a boy and his super T-Rex friend. The Walking Dead is absolutely the most popular zombie comic series out there right now, and it's published by image, a company that people didn't even know was still around.
I personally am very visually driven as well. The best way to go about this when you are looking to start a new series is find some artists you like and take note of them. I started reading the new Wizard of Oz series because I love Skottie Young's art. I followed his artwork and it lead me to a pretty fun series. I'd suggest flipping through some comics - super hero or not - just to see if you fancy the artwork. Take note of the artist and find what else they've done and you might find something you love!
And ESPECIALLY remember that covers of comics are pretty rarely done by the artist(s) that draw the panels. I spent the last two years avoiding Batman & Robin because of the awful Frank Quitely covers, and recently discovered the art between them was 10x better.
I could really go on and on, but you should really try some other things before passing judgement on all comics! There are comics about everything. This week there was a "Sarah Palin versus The World" comic that was drawn in a very pathetic imitation of Bryan Lee O'Malley's style.
(Wading in through dis vitriol to say a thing about Bone: do pick up the One Volume Edition, but do not [in my opinion] fork out for the later, colored one. Jeff Smith is a master of black-and-white, and nicely done as the retroactive colors may be they just look wrong with the comic.)
(P.S. I'm glad Toji's back.)
oh well, too late! I read 4 volumes in color so far and I think the coloring is gorgeous. Not to mention the linework, character designs, facial expressions...
I thought I was pretty clear. The art direction looks the same. I'm positive I said that many times. I don't give half a shit about the story. If it doesn't look good, why would words suddenly make it good?
I'm totally not trying to jump in on this feud, but I just wanted to say that this statement in particular shows just how much you have yet to learn about the fundamentals of comic storytelling. Yes, comics are generally thought to be 50% art and 50% story, but not all comics have to be gorgeously and painstakingly rendered in order to be a good read. Hell, some of the most popular online comics are pretty simple in their art style (with some being about as simple as it gets), but it's their incredibly hilarious and awesome writing that makes them so enjoyable.
In short, stop thinking that comics are more reliant on their art than their writing. This is why the technical term for a comic is "Sequential Art" -- a narrative art form with illustrations presented in a sequence. The very fact that each panel works in tandem with all the rest in order to tell a story means that the writing is obviously the underlying foundation of quality in a comic.
A cake can have the most delicious and beautifully-applied frosting in the history of baking, but if the cake itself is shit, all the frosting in the world isn't going to make it edible.
And I agree, original B&W Bone > color Bone. Jeff Smith's ink work makes me cry.
Posts
Look, all I want is something entertaining, that I won't hate myself for owning later.
well that's a good sign
by the way, who else read Persepolis? I liked it, how about you, potential person who also read it?
and that isn't something necessarily superhero based comics can't be
also "defate" is the best misspelling ever.
but as yet napp, all the superhero comics i've ever bought SO FAR, I give away... because I don't like them.
I TRY to keep my options open, but if a genre is a let down 100% of the time (in my experience,) why would I keep trying it?
Definition of insanity, trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Bone was awesome.
Sure, but reading completely different stories by completely different authors isn't exactly doing the same thing. Hell, the shittiest writer can fluke out a great story every once in awhile.
Probably for the same reason that robots, highschoolers, ninjas, and some combination of the three make up 90% of all Japanese popular entertainment.
Of course, these are not invalid genres and sub-genres. You can still find good quality examples of each of them. Examples that, if you were complaining that these genres were all exactly the same, would be extremely silly to dismiss based on their covers.
Yes I mostly responded to this post because my name was in it.
.....God?
I read the first book but the library didn't have any of the other volumes.
It was great though! I've been meaning to go back to it.
Inuyasha Naruto Rei Ichigo
His holiness the big anime fan.
Ha ha.
But I'm not dismissing anything. I plan on purchasing many of these recommendations, and As a matter of fact I've read many many super hero comics over the years, but the fact remains, I have yet to enjoy one enough to keep it, or wish I had spent my money on something else.
Or rather almost every western comic I've every purchased.
Thats why I'm looking for more. There has to be something palatable to me.
As a matter of fact, I had entirely given up on western comics, that is until the halo graphic novel came out and discovered Tsutomu nihei. O wait, he's not western...
I'm the goddamn batman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8Ba9rWhUg
Wow.
Metropolis is amazing.
Having such a specific ire agasint them is like saying Fisrt Person Shooters shouldn't exist and that all games should be Chess.
I understand you want comics that are perhaps more experimental, or maybe more unconventional or full of more pathos. The problem isn't that these comics aren't out there, it's that you just need to get out there and look for them. One of the local shops I go to here, Isotope Comics, always features dozens of the types of book you're (I think) after.
I couldn't tell you their names, they are simple just the types of books that are the mainstays of his store. They are mostly slice-of-life style comics, but those tend to be the ones I really dig the most these days. You really gotta stop calling superhero books uninspired if you don't really know what you're talking about, and only feel that way because they are the most accessible.
The issue is my preferred visual style, which is so narrow that I have a hard time finding anything interesting. So yes, I vastly over generalize, because my taste is so specific.
I like experimental, but moreso, I like a few particular styles of art. I don't like the super hero genre because its iconoclast visuals are abrasive, stark. Noone poses like that, noone looks like that, noone speaks like that, so why would I read it just because there are words over visuals I dislike?
I do go to a local store (when I'm at home), but the comic book stores where I live "heroes and dragons" and I forget the other one, all they have is a scant collection of only the most popular manga, and every issue of every super hero comic ever. And thats about it, other than magic: the gathering cards. So my options were quite sparing.
And as far as online goes, amazon only insists on the most popular selections that people have purchased.
Its not that I haven't looked, its that I keep getting the same recommendations over and over.
This is wierd, for some reason the wiki for FLCL was open when I opened internet explorer. That was a fun series.
You're a big fucking liar. You are definitely dismissing dozens of comics just because they happen to have superpowered people with costumes in them, regardless of what they actually do. That's what you've been doing just now. Every time someone tried to recommend you some high-profile, critically-acclaimed, high-quality comics you'd dismiss them utterly and insult whoever recommended them if those comics happened to somehow be related to Batman or Superman or Marvel and DC in any way.
You're just foaming at the mouth and raging about how much you hate superhero comics and you're alternately ignoring and insulting the people who are trying to tell you that you're oversimplifying and you really should make sure you're better informed before you go off on these rants.
And god! The bullshit you to pass off as opinion! You don't know anything about comics, superhero or otherwise. You say American comics haven't changed at all in 50 years. They have! Even superhero comics! Especially superhero comics. Comics have gone from standard kiddy Saturday morning villain-punching to dealing with personal issues to dealing with real-life issues and any combination of those things.
What's worse is that you go on and on and on about how Japan is so original when compared to western superhero comics, even though you couldn't be further from the truth. Most japanese comics are more mind-numbingly derivative and cliché than the worst superhero bullshit. You have hundreds of cartoons and comics pandering to disgusting closet pedophiles because that's what makes them the most money. You have hundreds of mindless Naruto clones with interchangeable protagonists and antagonists because that's what makes money!
There's only a handful of comics that are actually original. Of the main shonen books, only One Piece is really any good, and it also happens to be the one that breaks the most from the norm.
You do not know anything about comics, superhero, indie or otherwise. You are unaware of the radical changes comics (even superhero comics!) have gone through over the years, and whenever someone calls you on your ignorance you ignore them and chatter like an insane person. It's like you're trying to raise your voice to drown out theirs, even though you're typing. You're not just stupid, but you're out of your fucking mind.
You think you're an expert on everything you like to complain about, even though you couldn't possibly be further from the truth. You don't know anything. None of your complaints are valid and you're the real problem here, not whatever comic you might be reading. You want Japanese shonen comics, except you want American versions! Or something? You certainly don't want superhero comics because they're all the same and super derivative and nobody ever tried anything new in superhero comics and nobody who ever touched a superhero comic ever made anything worthwhile in any other genre because they were obviously tainted by superhero comics. You don't want derivative superhero comics, you want derivative Japanese comics but American!
Hey, I've got the perfect recommendation for you, Ninjai. Why not try Incarnate? It's basically exactly what you asked for, you know-nothing so-and-so.
You complain and you complain and you complain about things you are completely ignorant about and you just keep on going and you try to justify your opinions, even though there's nothing there to justify because none of your opinions stem from facts. Or at least none of your opinions are based on facts that are true in anything resembling the universe we inhabit.
What the fuck is your problem?
What?
I have no hard feelings. I don't appreciate being told how I feel about something.
I was just trying to pass a boring day at work
I never went on and on. I listed a few as reference for what I like. I don't even like manga that much.
I don't know.
I really don't... This isn't the first time I've gotten this extreme reaction from a forum.
And to be honest, I respect and admire most if not all of you...
I'm extremely sincerely sorry if I offended anyone.
Honestly.
I mean, I'm pretty embarassed right now.
You also made several mentions of Japan and how comics about people with superpowers don't necessarily involve superheroes there etcetera and how they have a better system with more creativity and so on, despite the fact that those specific comics you mentioned are different from superhero comics only in that they're from Japan, and people wear slightly less spandex in them. They're still just as derivative as Western superhero comics, and in some aspects they are even moreso.
You went on and on and on about how bad superhero comics were and how stupid they are, alternately ignoring or being extremely rude to the people who tried their best to recommend you comics that you might have liked if you'd given them a chance, even if they were superhero comics or not.
It really shouldn't be that big a surprise to you that you finally annoyed someone enough with your relentless, painfully self-assured ignorance that they called you on your bullshit.
You have a big habit of forming opinions based on a feeling you have and then defending that opinion to the death, despite the fact that you never, ever actually try to find any facts or anything to support your opinions beyond that initial gut reaction, which hardly ever seems to be based on any actual event anyway. Your opinions are completely arbitrary, basically. This makes it extremely frustrating to talk to you about anything because you're always operating on a completely different (often quite stupid and misinformed) level, and your responses only rarely relate to the discussion at hand in any way.
There are stigmas that come with territory. You cant expect variety out of a nitch, which is why its a nitch.... its a very specific taste, for a very specific group. Are you really expecting to find a super hero comic with no villan, no powers, no love interest?
When you take one of those things away, it stops belonging to that genre and it becomes something else.... like Mirrors Edge.
To use an example of your own. Please find me a Ninja anime with no Throwing Stars, swords or villains with special powers or skills.
Calm down.
I just got done rereading everything I said, and you're right. I said they were the same.
But, with my responses I had every intention of getting comic recommendations that weren't super hero related.
Nothing more.
I did mention manga few times.
My only point in mentioning them is that there is more to "super powered fiction" than spandex.
Did you not read how I was googling and searching online stores for their recommendations?
Because I did that.
I'll link you my wishlist if you like.
Well it is a suprise. Maybe it shouldn't be.
And I won't mention the box of 300 single issues I have of marvel comics from my childhood. That got left in the rain.
Wait... do you know me? Like, have we met in person? How could you have possibly gathered that from the broadly painted opinions I have strewn about on this forum?
I do defend my opinions. Because I believe in them. If I didn't, I wouldn't have those opinions.
You can keep berating me all you like, the fact of the matter is, I had no idea that I would get this kind of reaction.
I was seriously almost brought to tears by your previous post. I can only say I'm sorry so many times. Its your choice whether you'll forgive.
I like you guys.
You did ask for non-superhero comic recommendations, and people did give them to you. And you ignored most of them or you yelled at them for the recommendations not being mainstream enough or something, like it's their fault that superhero comics are more mainstream in the US.
People also recommended some superhero comics to you, but the specific comics they recommended didn't suffer from any of the problems you have with superhero comics. As far as people could tell, anyway, because you generally just rambled on and on instead of actually stating any clear reasons why you dislike them. Most of these comics, by the way, only happened to have superheroes in them. Most of them didn't really follow any kind of standard superhero storylines. Examples being Grant Morrison's Animal Man and Doom Patrol.
And yes, you did say you were putting together a list of stuff you were going to check out, while simultaneously being rude and insulting again, and ignoring half of the suggestions.
I don't know you in person, but I'm basing that statement on what I've seen of you on the internet. You had a similarly uninformed opinion on 3D films, and you ignored almost all of the counterarguments people sent your way in the discussion that followed.
It's not about forgiveness, you're being ridiculous and melodramatic. It's about listening to other people, thinking and not sticking to your uninformed opinions like they're the only thing that keep you from drowning in the vast ocean of knowledge. You could try to think about and articulate your points better and not rudely dismiss anything someone might say simply because what they have to say is somehow at odds with your initial assumption.
You could try not exploding into insane, incoherent rant after insane, incoherent rant in something that only bears a passing resemblance to any human language whenever someone disagrees with your original (almost invariably incredibly caustic) statement.
I don't know. Do these sound like good ideas to you, maybe?
You want to talk about thick skin. I'm in a forward fucking deployed environment. What can I say... I'm a little stressed already.
Maybe that came through in my posts. I don't know...
The point is that I like this forum and the people here, you're one of them, and getting that kind of response from someone I like was... unexpected.
I don't care whats mainstream. I take pride in the fact that I don't like what others do, merely because someone else said it was good.
I was looking for something NOT superhero.
I thought I was pretty clear. The art direction looks the same. I'm positive I said that many times. I don't give half a shit about the story. If it doesn't look good, why would words suddenly make it good?
I also reread others posts when I reread my posts. I looked at every single recommendation in google, amazon, borders...
However, I did NOT specifically respond to each recomendation here. That doesn't mean I ignored it.
I still fail to see how I was rude.
I didn't ignore anyone's argument simply because I was not swayed by them.
This is part of debate/argument. You disagree, and you list why. The opponent follows. Etc.
I am on this forum for the express purpose of learning from others. Just because an opposing opinion is presented, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Which rant are you talking about? All of the posts that I made were pretty short by comparison to some other responses.
I could definitely do with clearer arguments... as that seems to be the problem right now.
(P.S. I'm glad Toji's back.)
I was going to be more civil until I read this.
You don't know anything about comics or visual storytelling of any kind. You're also still being stupid or you're a liar, because no, art direction has nothing to do with any of this and even if it did, you'd be wrong about Animal Man and Doom Patrol because they don't really look much like other superhero comics at all. In fact, all of the "superhero comics" that were recommended to you have their own unique look, with the only similarities between them generally being that they are comics featuring people. Like most comics, in fact.
You don't know anything.
Also, you seem to be proud of the fact that you dislike stuff that other people like. Well aren't you Mister Special The Unique Snowflake. What a bunch of pretentious bullshit. You're proud that you don't think something is good just because someone told you it was good. Okay. Fuck that and fuck you. You don't think something is good because someone told you it was, that's fair. You also don't think something is good or could be good because someone told you it was. That's not fair, and in fact it's stupid and insulting and screw you.
And yes, I know you weren't looking for superhero comics, but your justification for that was rambling and completely without thought or logic, and people recommended those books because they didn't want you to stay misinformed. They only wanted to help you broaden your horizons and introduce you to a greater sea of entertainment because they saw you were stuck in a shallow, stagnant pool of ignorance.
You don't have to agree with an opposing opinion simply because it is presented to you (although chances are you'd be better off if you did because it's unlikely to be a worse opinion than the one you came up with yourself) and nowhere did I even imply that you should do this. What I did say was that you should listen to other people's opinions and their justification thereof and weigh it against your own opinions (or what passes for them) and your justification thereof (or what passes for it) so you can make an informed decision like a normal human being. This as opposed to your current method of blindly dismissing all other opinions and whatever arguments support them if they don't lign up with your current, terrible opinions that are based on nothing more than random emotional responses.
You say you're here to learn from other people. Other people try to teach you things and you ignore and insult them because they're not giving you exactly what you asked . You can't just learn stuff that supports your original viewpoints. Learning and reality do not work that way. Grow up, you child.
You don't know anything, your tastes are shallow and you're not sorry at all.
I'm done.
I'm pretty upset I didn't get into this sooner - I work at a comic shop, I could give a bajiliion suggestions, ninjai!
A lot of people come in and talk about Marvel/DC, and they see that my Pick of the Week is "always one of the weird ones" when actually, they're AMAZING! I always pick the lesser known titles because I want to spread the word about other stuff.
If you want to read comics and are kind of 'anti-super' (a lot of people are!), focus on publishers. Steer away from Marvel/DC (though there ARE some pretty amazing stories) and aim for companies like Vertigo (personal favorite that is actually run by DC), Image, IDW, Top Shelf, :01 first second...
Tam mentioned Persepolis- excellent stuff! That book really made me feel like I had it easy.
I'd recommend Daytripper, or anything by Fabio Moon & Gabriel Ba. Amazing writing, amazing artwork.
Jeff Lemire's Sweet Tooth is like nothing else - post-apocalyptic deliciousness.
Brian Wood is also pretty fantastic. He does DMZ, Demo, Northlanders (BRILLIANT viking comic), and Fight For Tomorrow. He's a great writer and always chooses amazing artists for his stories.
Robert Kirkman does The Walking Dead, Astounding Wolf-man and soon another comic about a boy and his super T-Rex friend. The Walking Dead is absolutely the most popular zombie comic series out there right now, and it's published by image, a company that people didn't even know was still around.
I personally am very visually driven as well. The best way to go about this when you are looking to start a new series is find some artists you like and take note of them. I started reading the new Wizard of Oz series because I love Skottie Young's art. I followed his artwork and it lead me to a pretty fun series. I'd suggest flipping through some comics - super hero or not - just to see if you fancy the artwork. Take note of the artist and find what else they've done and you might find something you love!
And ESPECIALLY remember that covers of comics are pretty rarely done by the artist(s) that draw the panels. I spent the last two years avoiding Batman & Robin because of the awful Frank Quitely covers, and recently discovered the art between them was 10x better.
I could really go on and on, but you should really try some other things before passing judgement on all comics! There are comics about everything. This week there was a "Sarah Palin versus The World" comic that was drawn in a very pathetic imitation of Bryan Lee O'Malley's style.
oh well, too late! I read 4 volumes in color so far and I think the coloring is gorgeous. Not to mention the linework, character designs, facial expressions...
I'm totally not trying to jump in on this feud, but I just wanted to say that this statement in particular shows just how much you have yet to learn about the fundamentals of comic storytelling. Yes, comics are generally thought to be 50% art and 50% story, but not all comics have to be gorgeously and painstakingly rendered in order to be a good read. Hell, some of the most popular online comics are pretty simple in their art style (with some being about as simple as it gets), but it's their incredibly hilarious and awesome writing that makes them so enjoyable.
In short, stop thinking that comics are more reliant on their art than their writing. This is why the technical term for a comic is "Sequential Art" -- a narrative art form with illustrations presented in a sequence. The very fact that each panel works in tandem with all the rest in order to tell a story means that the writing is obviously the underlying foundation of quality in a comic.
A cake can have the most delicious and beautifully-applied frosting in the history of baking, but if the cake itself is shit, all the frosting in the world isn't going to make it edible.
And I agree, original B&W Bone > color Bone. Jeff Smith's ink work makes me cry.
Thank you, M_D! I tried to find the link to that when I was typing it up, hehe.
Wish me luck, guys.
I missed what game it was for though? Sounds exciting!
So far I am doing...mediocre. I hope to be able to make a play here soon. First place is now $61,000.
7000 out of 42000 people have been eliminated. Whee.