Wow guys I go to bed and come back and the internet is up in arms about this.
I don't really see why someone would come to the conclusion that shopping becomes personal. If I like something I recommend it to my friends. I don't necessarily recommend everything I buy to my friends, I also don't necessarily like everything I buy.
I mean if they want to pay me a half million dollars to tell them how to do it right that's fine, I'm not even a business major, this shit is just common sense.
Oh, I take checks by the way.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I don't really see why someone would come to the conclusion that shopping becomes personal.
My thoughts exactly. I use Amazon, Ebay and Steam quite regularly for my online purchases, and the only information given to them is that which is necessary to receive my payments and (aside from Steam of course) deliver my purchases to me. 2/3 allow use of a handle/nickname and to the best of my knowledge none have ever decided to just make me a person all of a sudden, rather than the random shopper I am. The third (Amazon) only has my real name in the hopes that friends and family will actually use my bloody wishlist once in a while. >.<
I don't introduce myself to the cashier at Starbucks or Walmart, they don't need to know my name or address (unless by chance I am ordering/buying something that will be delivered), and I would expect that with the anonymity of the internet it would be even less likely or important that who I really am in the world beyond the aforementioned shipping instructions and possible payment info.
This doesn't even look good on paper, and I'm appalled that this wasn't veto'ed reflexively by someone in the organization.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I'm surprised the programmers in charge didn't raise a privacy concern. They had to have known the kind of personal stuff people buy and sell on there. I mean as the only programmer where I am, I obviously voice my concerns over decisions and try to guide them to the right answer, especially in quality control and legal purposes (the ones I know will come back and bite them and are security/privacy holes), but that's why my title is Software Engineer and not strictly code jockey.
I'm surprised there wasn't someone who was like, "Hey this is probably going to blow right up in our face."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Speaking of disseminating information, mind if I paraphrase what you just said as part of an update on the situation, krysanthemum? Mostly just he bit about sliding from optional to "optional" to mandatory on names. I feel weird using forum posts without asking.
Also my favorite part of this is seeing this thread linked on the official forums with people either saying "well my personal info didn't show up! Of course I didn't give my real name..." or "I heard pennyarcade is linking people to sex toys or something!" Of course most people actually got it.
Speaking of disseminating information, mind if I paraphrase what you just said as part of an update on the situation, krysanthemum? Mostly just he bit about sliding from optional to "optional" to mandatory on names. I feel weird using forum posts without asking.
Also my favorite part of this is seeing this thread linked on the official forums with people either saying "well my personal info didn't show up! Of course I didn't give my real name..." or "I heard pennyarcade is linking people to sex toys or something!" Of course most people actually got it.
Well, some of us chose the sex toys because of how personal that information really is. I wouldn't want someone to know I bought crocheted underwear or a stained glass artistic rendering of buttsex either. Maybe buying some theater jewelry is one thing, it could be practically innocuous but what this represents, the harm it could cause, and the information without consent and basically just flipping the switch automatically is what went wrong.
Maybe if they had wiped their databases of data older than a week, told everyone, and then did it, it might have been different. Or, defaulted to private. Or just opt in completely to the service. The opt-in, link to facebook might have been different. This way dildo buying can be private, but your budding business selling crocheted spandex panties can be advertised to your circle of friends.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yeah I mean, I blatantly went the sex toy route so people wouldn't bother asking why they should care about their custom teddy bear purchase being public. It's a privacy fear even people who use Facebook can understand.
Yeah I mean, I blatantly went the sex toy route so people wouldn't bother asking why they should care about their custom teddy bear purchase being public. It's a privacy fear even people who use Facebook can understand.
Exactly. One of my friends' girlfriend uses Etsy and I'm kinda glad I'm telling people I know just in case.
What's hilarious is that this probably could've been done with a modicum of effort and thought and without the backlash if only someone had went "hmm maybe my mom doesn't want her dildo choice to be public knowledge."
I can think of, at least, 3 ways this could've been implemented without the huge privacy intrusion and still net them their social media aspect. Of course they'd have to admit they don't really have as many active users as they do if they did it the "right" way.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
So how do I find myself or my wife on the site? I did a search for our names and found nothing. What's the proper procedure to see what they have published about us?
So how do I find myself or my wife on the site? I did a search for our names and found nothing. What's the proper procedure to see what they have published about us?
Well if you didn't fill your name in on your profile page (or at registration), then you won't be on there.
Of course, your username is searchable, and it always has been.
So how do I find myself or my wife on the site? I did a search for our names and found nothing. What's the proper procedure to see what they have published about us?
You can plug all past or present email addresses of you and your wife into their forgot password page. If there's an account associated with one of the email addresses, they'll send a password reset link to that account. If there isn't an account associated with an email address you give the form, the web page will tell you that. I found I actually had two accounts, one of which I'd completely forgotten about. Anyway, once you're logged into an account, you can see what info you gave them in your profile / account settings. Assume that any and all information you gave them is publicly accessible, then purge information to your liking, and/or opt-out of their social stuff, and/or close your account.
Despite Google's and Facebook's PR disasters with this same kind of policy, it looks like Kalin chose to learn the hard way that forcing users to opt out might get you more initial sign-ups, but it could come at the expense of loyal dildo buyers.
Etsy users were not notified or warned about these privacy setting changes, so we imagine that many are currently rushing to conduct some damage control and prevent scenarios such as the one described by a commenter on the Penny Arcade Forums:
I just found a woman who's [sic] Etsy profile comes up on Google as the 5th link. I was expecting 6 or 7 pages down, but it's on the very first page, right after her online resumes (four of 'em - so I guess she's looking for work and this cannot be helping). She signed up a year ago, under the old privacy policy, and hasn't logged in since 2010.
And now I know what dildo she uses. Right down to the curvature and coloring.
Armored Gorilla on
"I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years."
Well hopefully we spared a few people from having their hobbies and personal preferences all over the internet tied to their real name. Hopefully etsy gets dinged with a few lawsuits with people who can't find a job because their conservative bosses are concerned that they like rather obscene things for hobby use.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Etsy users were not notified or warned about these privacy setting changes, so we imagine that many are currently rushing to conduct some damage control and prevent scenarios such as the one described by a commenter on the Penny Arcade Forums:
I just found a woman who's [sic] Etsy profile comes up on Google as the 5th link. I was expecting 6 or 7 pages down, but it's on the very first page, right after her online resumes (four of 'em - so I guess she's looking for work and this cannot be helping). She signed up a year ago, under the old privacy policy, and hasn't logged in since 2010.
And now I know what dildo she uses. Right down to the curvature and coloring.
I think when your words have successfully reached this audience, you can chalk this up in the win column.
Thank you, PCR, for bringing this to our attention.
I think I should lobby my MP to make sure the Data Protection Act effectively covers this.
I think I should lobby my MP to make sure the Data Protection Act effectively covers this.
I was reading up on this.
Businesses in the US do not appear to have any data protection obligations with respect to information about non-citizens. There is a "safe harbour" agreement that states that if an organisation in the UK wants to transfer data to an organisation in another jurisdiction, that jurisdiction must have data protection laws in place at least as stringent as those in the EU.
Since with Etsy you are providing information to them directly, they don't appear to be required to take any particular steps to safeguard that information, and the only way to seek restitution appears to be to take private legal action.
So how do I find myself or my wife on the site? I did a search for our names and found nothing. What's the proper procedure to see what they have published about us?
It sounds like neither of your accounts ever got your real names tied to them, which is nice, but you should also change these pictured settings on both accounts so people can't even find your buying history through your alias:
wonderpug on
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Now someone is internet famous for bad grammar and being a perv.
It was kind of taken out of context. The quote they (and I think Ars used) omits the part at the start where he mentions he's searching for it as an example to provide to a journalist that asked.
Now someone is internet famous for bad grammar and being a perv.
It was kind of taken out of context. The quote they (and I think Ars used) omits the part at the start where he mentions he's searching for it as an example to provide to a journalist that asked.
To be fair, their framing isn't entirely terrible. It seems to be presented as an example of the results of this policy, not "omg interpervz" or similar.
Linden on
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Now someone is internet famous for bad grammar and being a perv.
It was kind of taken out of context. The quote they (and I think Ars used) omits the part at the start where he mentions he's searching for it as an example to provide to a journalist that asked.
To be fair, their framing isn't entirely terrible. It seems to be presented as an example of the results of this policy, not "omg interpervz" or similar.
Oh I agree. Just that if you read the quote by itself as it was presented and you happen to ask "wait, why is he searching for dildos in the first place?" then you won't necessarily get the answer right away even if you realize that the newspaper's using it as a privacy breach example.
It's a way to sensationalize... something that was already sensationalized. To us, it comes off as weird, to the person reading it, they think we're a bunch of pervs. I won't detest that for some of the people here. I'm looking at you improvalone... 8-)
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Speaking of disseminating information, mind if I paraphrase what you just said as part of an update on the situation, krysanthemum? Mostly just he bit about sliding from optional to "optional" to mandatory on names. I feel weird using forum posts without asking.
Also my favorite part of this is seeing this thread linked on the official forums with people either saying "well my personal info didn't show up! Of course I didn't give my real name..." or "I heard pennyarcade is linking people to sex toys or something!" Of course most people actually got it.
Yeah, I'm fine with that. Hopefully Etsy won't be able to connect that post with my Etsy shop (under a difference name), or I'll probably be shut down. They are shutting people down for things they say on external forums.
Crap, I just re-read that and it sounds extremely paranoid. Good grief. Thanks Etsy.
Now someone is internet famous for bad grammar and being a perv.
It was kind of taken out of context. The quote they (and I think Ars used) omits the part at the start where he mentions he's searching for it as an example to provide to a journalist that asked.
To be fair, their framing isn't entirely terrible. It seems to be presented as an example of the results of this policy, not "omg interpervz" or similar.
Yeah, the Ars article I think works with the assuming that their readership is familiar enough with PA to know, and in a sentence in following paragraph does mention us as "critics" instead of just perverts. The MSNBC one it's harder to tell. I can't really judge, since coming from the context of reading both articles after this thread, I know how it was originally meant.
It's a way to sensationalize... something that was already sensationalized. To us, it comes off as weird, to the person reading it, they think we're a bunch of pervs. I won't detest that for some of the people here. I'm looking at you imprevalone... 8-)
Couldn't help myself with that, it was pretty easy.
After keeping up with this thread I told my wife about it, she quickly went and disabled her Etsy account. Not because she bought anything inappropriate, she just doesn't want people looking up her buy history at all. Because it's not something that ever needs to be shared.
I personally have never used etsy. I couldn't ever be bothered to filter through the manure to find the gold.
Oh, and I wouldn't say the changes are mandatory. You can go into your profile settings and remove your name, once you know it's out there.
They've changed it to opt-out, so it's out there until you do something about it. But they're doing their best to not tell anyone about it, so very few people know to do that.
Man now would be a good time to go into the hipster merchant business. 3% cut for doing nothing more than hosting a website and payment processing (totaling 12 million we found out)? I must be grossly oversimplifying this.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Oh, and I wouldn't say the changes are mandatory. You can go into your profile settings and remove your name, once you know it's out there.
They've changed it to opt-out, so it's out there until you do something about it. But they're doing their best to not tell anyone about it, so very few people know to do that.
Oh, and I wouldn't say the changes are mandatory. You can go into your profile settings and remove your name, once you know it's out there.
They've changed it to opt-out, so it's out there until you do something about it. But they're doing their best to not tell anyone about it, so very few people know to do that.
Yeah, if you try to change your name to something else, they have an "approvals process" so you can't change your name to Smithsonian Dickcheese. If you just want to remove your name, you can do it right away.
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While you came for the Etsy I suggest you stay awhile, we're not so bad... well most of us.. Ok we're all jerks, but we can be jerks together!
I don't really see why someone would come to the conclusion that shopping becomes personal. If I like something I recommend it to my friends. I don't necessarily recommend everything I buy to my friends, I also don't necessarily like everything I buy.
I mean if they want to pay me a half million dollars to tell them how to do it right that's fine, I'm not even a business major, this shit is just common sense.
Oh, I take checks by the way.
My thoughts exactly. I use Amazon, Ebay and Steam quite regularly for my online purchases, and the only information given to them is that which is necessary to receive my payments and (aside from Steam of course) deliver my purchases to me. 2/3 allow use of a handle/nickname and to the best of my knowledge none have ever decided to just make me a person all of a sudden, rather than the random shopper I am. The third (Amazon) only has my real name in the hopes that friends and family will actually use my bloody wishlist once in a while. >.<
I don't introduce myself to the cashier at Starbucks or Walmart, they don't need to know my name or address (unless by chance I am ordering/buying something that will be delivered), and I would expect that with the anonymity of the internet it would be even less likely or important that who I really am in the world beyond the aforementioned shipping instructions and possible payment info.
This doesn't even look good on paper, and I'm appalled that this wasn't veto'ed reflexively by someone in the organization.
I'm surprised there wasn't someone who was like, "Hey this is probably going to blow right up in our face."
Also my favorite part of this is seeing this thread linked on the official forums with people either saying "well my personal info didn't show up! Of course I didn't give my real name..." or "I heard pennyarcade is linking people to sex toys or something!" Of course most people actually got it.
Well, some of us chose the sex toys because of how personal that information really is. I wouldn't want someone to know I bought crocheted underwear or a stained glass artistic rendering of buttsex either. Maybe buying some theater jewelry is one thing, it could be practically innocuous but what this represents, the harm it could cause, and the information without consent and basically just flipping the switch automatically is what went wrong.
Maybe if they had wiped their databases of data older than a week, told everyone, and then did it, it might have been different. Or, defaulted to private. Or just opt in completely to the service. The opt-in, link to facebook might have been different. This way dildo buying can be private, but your budding business selling crocheted spandex panties can be advertised to your circle of friends.
It's on Consumerist, Forbes, and MSNBC.
If they weren't in damage control mode, they are now!
Exactly. One of my friends' girlfriend uses Etsy and I'm kinda glad I'm telling people I know just in case.
What's hilarious is that this probably could've been done with a modicum of effort and thought and without the backlash if only someone had went "hmm maybe my mom doesn't want her dildo choice to be public knowledge."
I can think of, at least, 3 ways this could've been implemented without the huge privacy intrusion and still net them their social media aspect. Of course they'd have to admit they don't really have as many active users as they do if they did it the "right" way.
I KISS YOU!
Well if you didn't fill your name in on your profile page (or at registration), then you won't be on there.
Of course, your username is searchable, and it always has been.
That pic was so confusing. I was like, wait, why are those links purple. I only read one of those articles.
If people who eagerly, desperately want to be Facebook can't learn from Facebook's highly public blunders, they won't learn from anything.
http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/15/6273251-e-commerce-site-etsy-exposes-users-shopping-histories
I think when your words have successfully reached this audience, you can chalk this up in the win column.
Thank you, PCR, for bringing this to our attention.
I think I should lobby my MP to make sure the Data Protection Act effectively covers this.
Oh shit! I never intended anyone to find out about my bad grammar!
;-)
Great job on getting the word out about this though!
I was reading up on this.
Businesses in the US do not appear to have any data protection obligations with respect to information about non-citizens. There is a "safe harbour" agreement that states that if an organisation in the UK wants to transfer data to an organisation in another jurisdiction, that jurisdiction must have data protection laws in place at least as stringent as those in the EU.
Since with Etsy you are providing information to them directly, they don't appear to be required to take any particular steps to safeguard that information, and the only way to seek restitution appears to be to take private legal action.
It's pretty fucked up.
It sounds like neither of your accounts ever got your real names tied to them, which is nice, but you should also change these pictured settings on both accounts so people can't even find your buying history through your alias:
It was kind of taken out of context. The quote they (and I think Ars used) omits the part at the start where he mentions he's searching for it as an example to provide to a journalist that asked.
Currently DMing: None
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To be fair, their framing isn't entirely terrible. It seems to be presented as an example of the results of this policy, not "omg interpervz" or similar.
Oh I agree. Just that if you read the quote by itself as it was presented and you happen to ask "wait, why is he searching for dildos in the first place?" then you won't necessarily get the answer right away even if you realize that the newspaper's using it as a privacy breach example.
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Yeah, I'm fine with that. Hopefully Etsy won't be able to connect that post with my Etsy shop (under a difference name), or I'll probably be shut down. They are shutting people down for things they say on external forums.
Crap, I just re-read that and it sounds extremely paranoid. Good grief. Thanks Etsy.
Yeah, the Ars article I think works with the assuming that their readership is familiar enough with PA to know, and in a sentence in following paragraph does mention us as "critics" instead of just perverts. The MSNBC one it's harder to tell. I can't really judge, since coming from the context of reading both articles after this thread, I know how it was originally meant.
Couldn't help myself with that, it was pretty easy.
After keeping up with this thread I told my wife about it, she quickly went and disabled her Etsy account. Not because she bought anything inappropriate, she just doesn't want people looking up her buy history at all. Because it's not something that ever needs to be shared.
I personally have never used etsy. I couldn't ever be bothered to filter through the manure to find the gold.
They've changed it to opt-out, so it's out there until you do something about it. But they're doing their best to not tell anyone about it, so very few people know to do that.
In the comments on the Ars thread, one guy tried to change his name but after 12 hours it was rejected.
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=21433049#p21433049
http://www.etsy.com/storque/handmade-life/rethinking-feedback-12472/
Yeah, if you try to change your name to something else, they have an "approvals process" so you can't change your name to Smithsonian Dickcheese. If you just want to remove your name, you can do it right away.
Reads to me like "God what the fuck guys, this change makes perfect sense and all those other people are liars."
Truth be told, I couldn't get past the first four paragraphs.