Wohoo. I love Chipolte, single, decent occupation currently, and black to boot!
She'd have me quarinteened ASAP.
Chipot-LE.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
I think two concurrent, yet exclusive, phenomena are occuring to make the older generations go all, 'What's with all the wimpy dudes living at home?"
P1) Outside of military service, there's not a lot of gainful employment a highschool graduate can aspire to these days, and it's only going to get worse as the economy slumps. Low skilled positions are always the first to be redundant or outsourced or eliminated by technology.
As well, much like Professor Hubert Farnsworth predicted, bachelors' degrees of today are like the high school diplomas of yesteryear, i.e., fairly worthless in many contexts. And if you need post-bachelors credit or additional certification, that costs money, and money spent on rent when you can live at home for free is kind of pissing away value future economic leverage. When my brother went back to school, my parents moved him AND his wife into their house because it would save them $15,000 in rent over two years. That's a ton of cash, and certainly a good chunk toward a mortgage downpayment some time in the future.
P2) Sexual dynamics have changed significantly in the last 50 years, and that trickles down into almost every facet of life.
The struggle of women's rights and equality has inherently led to a situation of romantic dynamics being on more equal footing. If women aren't expected to be housewives, at some point men can't be expected to be the primary breadwinner. Depending on peripheral factors like costs of living, it may be more financially prudent for men to stay home and raise kids.
Several generations on, this will lead to a child-rearing style that will put significantly less impetus on male children to "go forth and be a man," and this will always have the unfortunate side effect of creating a marginal amount of formless man-children. I currently know of two such people, one older and one younger, and their lives are difficult now because of how awkward they were allowed to become.
All in all, while I feel these phenomena exist, I'm not entirely sure these phenomena necessitate further action.
One things that kind of irks me is I live at home and get the occasional "Oh... I see" look over it which, whatever, I'm used to it. But when any of my female friends who are in the same situation reveal they're in the same boat to one of people I got the look from none of them has ever batted an eyelash.
Hard to restrain myself from looking at the person and asking "Fucking seriously?"
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
One things that kind of irks me is I live at home and get the occasional "Oh... I see" look over it which, whatever, I'm used to it. But when any of my female friends who are in the same situation reveal they're in the same boat to one of people I got the look from none of them has ever batted an eyelash.
Hard to restrain myself from looking at the person and asking "Fucking seriously?"
It's a double standard, but one rooted in Western traditions of women not leaving their parents house until they were married.
I mean, neither of my grandmothers had any other residences than their parents' or husbands' houses. Even my brother's wife, despite being a working woman, never lived anywhere on her own outside of the dorms at college. She moved back in after graduation, and then years later moved in with my brother the week before they had their wedding.
Yeah I know why it exists, still annoying though :P
Amusingly enough I may be moving in with one of said friends sometime in the near future. She'd make a pretty kick ass roomate but I'm kinda still on the fence because she just started a new job and I'm not 100% on the reliability aspect of things yet.
I'm glad I'm on my own, but I'll admit it can be hard to look back on the past decade and say without hesitation "Y'know, I'm sure glad I had my own apartment or shared one with room mates rather than just having a cool $100,000+ extra to my name in stuff, cash and investments".
I don't regret it, but depending on the cost of living and ones income, it's not an insignificant sum.
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
All in all, while I feel these phenomena exist, I'm not entirely sure these phenomena necessitate further action.
I agree very much. I know a lot of people, in a lot of age ranges. None of the men or boys I know are slacking around, they are all working very hard at something, be it school or a career. This woman dug up some anecdotes & outliers, and turned it into a book to make some money.
To me, she just doesn't understand what men do for fun these days. I've got all of the stuff she thinks I should - wife, kids, career, mortgage, post-graduate degree - but I spend 100% of my hobby time on computer & video games. I'm sure she would be happier if I was on a golf course, but that game is so damn boring.
To me, she just doesn't understand what men do for fun these days. I've got all of the stuff she thinks I should - wife, kids, career, mortgage, post-graduate degree - but I spend 100% of my hobby time on computer & video games. I'm sure she would be happier if I was on a golf course, but that game is so damn boring.
A while back, my wife got a little annoyed at my gaming. I pointed out to her that for plenty of guys, recreation consists of things like golf or boozing it up with their buddies at a bar somewhere. Things that keep them out of the house and away from their families for extended periods of time. She realized I had a point.
I can see a woman being upset that the guy in her life was ignoring her in favor of playing MMO's or whatever. But I don't see any rational argument that gaming is inherently worse to a relationship than any other hobby.
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Rigorous Scholarship
To me, she just doesn't understand what men do for fun these days. I've got all of the stuff she thinks I should - wife, kids, career, mortgage, post-graduate degree - but I spend 100% of my hobby time on computer & video games. I'm sure she would be happier if I was on a golf course, but that game is so damn boring.
A while back, my wife got a little annoyed at my gaming. I pointed out to her that for plenty of guys, recreation consists of things like golf or boozing it up with their buddies at a bar somewhere. Things that keep them out of the house and away from their families for extended periods of time. She realized I had a point.
I can see a woman being upset that the guy in her life was ignoring her in favor of playing MMO's or whatever. But I don't see any rational argument that gaming is inherently worse to a relationship than any other hobby.
My wife actually explained to me how, for her, it really was worse having me "right there" but not available. That it would be different, and preferable, to have me out somewhere "with the guys" even if the amount of time was the same.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Of course, manly honor being attacked by an article attracts the male PA posters who disagree with it but I want to know what the lady PA posters think about this idea.
still catching up, so forgive me if somebody else has answered this
the woman is a moron and really quite embarrassing.
Now, that being said, I dated somebody that never quite got out of his early 20s. He peaked at about 22 and that was about it. and after working for 2 years at walmart part time to try and support the both of us while he stayed home, slept, ate, played video games, and I was taking on more and more debt, I hit the bottom and got out.
And moves home to live with my parents and work my life back to normal (i was,however, living in my old room and not the basement).
So, these guys do exist. Now, would his having gotten married and having kids have changed anything? Nope. He probably would have still done just what he did and I would have been even more stuck than I was at that point.
Some guys 'grow up', some don't. Same with girls. There are females I know who haven't quite gotten past the high school levels of gossip in their lives, and some who have.
But it has nothing really to do with the video games and movies or star wars or bikes or whatever. society plays a part, i'll agree with that.
but this woman seems to just be... ugh, I dunno, but I've rarely agreed with just about everybody in this thread (that i've read up to this point) as i do about this.
I think the NEET phenomenon, if it is one, might be the one thing identified in the OP that is actually concerning. Being unemployed, not in school or training of some kind is not very good for your mental health in most cases. Unless you're say, volunteering a ton or doing in-home work (parenting, caring for a family member), it is a bit of a soul crushing experience if you're in that space.
Also, before we get too gamer-defensive, I think it's good to step back and realize that playing video games solely isn't necessarily the best recreation strategy either, mixing in some other hobbies is probably better for your health and happiness long term.
Comedy Option:
Maybe the whole problem is the baby boomers clogging up the work force and restricting opportunity instead of just freaking dieing already. Maybe we shouldn't have fought smoking so much, might have thinned their numbers.
My wife actually explained to me how, for her, it really was worse having me "right there" but not available. That it would be different, and preferable, to have me out somewhere "with the guys" even if the amount of time was the same.
I can understand a spouse not wanting to directly compete for attention, and expecting to have a partner's attention as a matter of right. Out of sight, out of mind.
From my own experience, I really had to learn to hit the pause key as soon as my wife walked up. This is difficult in MMOs, so I had to learn to only instance/raid when she was asleep. If I was just out soloing, I had to learn to just turn away from the mobs & accept the death. Of course, when I need her & we are relaxing, I have to wait for her round of Bejeweled Blitz to end before speaking. ;-)
I think it is absolutely undeniable that there is a sociological change going on in society.
If you use Erikson's Psychosocial Theory to define the stages of life (Infant, Toddler, Preschool, Schoolchild, Adolescent, Young Adult, Mid-Adult, Late Adult), there is a stage that is forming that has never existed before. Somewhere between Adolescent and Young Adult there is a new stage. Someone who emotionally a Young Adult but is societally still an Adolescent. College graduates moving back in with their parents, unable to get career-oriented jobs and not having kids or getting married right after college graduation. This has a lot to do with an oversaturated job market but also with societal expectations.
I think the article is entirely unfair. This is a life stage for both genders. Both males and females are participating in this prolonged adolescence, and to blame it on one gender, and to go even farther and purport that the gender is actively choosing to stay in this life stage is not only an uneducated argument but also a pretty stupid one.
I think it is absolutely undeniable that there is a sociological change going on in society.
If you use Erikson's Psychosocial Theory to define the stages of life (Infant, Toddler, Preschool, Schoolchild, Adolescent, Young Adult, Mid-Adult, Late Adult), there is a stage that is forming that has never existed before. Somewhere between Adolescent and Young Adult there is a new stage. Someone who emotionally a Young Adult but is societally still an Adolescent. College graduates moving back in with their parents, unable to get career-oriented jobs and not having kids or getting married right after college graduation. This has a lot to do with an oversaturated job market but also with societal expectations.
I think the article is entirely unfair. This is a life stage for both genders. Both males and females are participating in this prolonged adolescence, and to blame it on one gender, and to go even farther and purport that the gender is actively choosing to stay in this life stage is not only an uneducated argument but also a pretty stupid one.
I'm not sure that part at least is a stage, a growing number of people myself included, as has been mentioned previously in the thread are going "fuck, marriage/kids is/are terrible, why would I do something like that to myself" and choosing not to, ever. I'm well educated have a decent job, and would sooner stab myself in the eye with a spork than do that
Some guys 'grow up', some don't. Same with girls. There are females I know who haven't quite gotten past the high school levels of gossip in their lives, and some who have.
This is a good point, because it points out the double-standard of the entire argument.
Women are generally allowed to stay immature and dependant on parents or husbands with very little commentary from society. One of the biggest problems between my brother and his wife early in their marriage was how she still saw her father as her primary authority and provider, when it should have been only herself. She got mad and upset when she and my brother couldn't just buy her a new car on a whim or go on a vacation on impulse, because her parents still treated her like a child in her late twenties, and she liked being treated that way.
Things have gotten better, but there's still not the social pressure on her to stop acting so infantile. Unlike, say, a family friend in his mid-20s who has never left home or finished school or had a meaningful job or relationship. He gets shit on all the time for it, and not totally undeservedly, but it would be totally different if he was a woman. A girl in her 20s who has little worldly experience and stays at home is probably the ideal for many fathers, as well as men looking for traditional roles in potential mates.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
I think it is absolutely undeniable that there is a sociological change going on in society.
If you use Erikson's Psychosocial Theory to define the stages of life (Infant, Toddler, Preschool, Schoolchild, Adolescent, Young Adult, Mid-Adult, Late Adult), there is a stage that is forming that has never existed before. Somewhere between Adolescent and Young Adult there is a new stage. Someone who emotionally a Young Adult but is societally still an Adolescent. College graduates moving back in with their parents, unable to get career-oriented jobs and not having kids or getting married right after college graduation. This has a lot to do with an oversaturated job market but also with societal expectations.
I think the article is entirely unfair. This is a life stage for both genders. Both males and females are participating in this prolonged adolescence, and to blame it on one gender, and to go even farther and purport that the gender is actively choosing to stay in this life stage is not only an uneducated argument but also a pretty stupid one.
I'm not sure that part at least is a stage, a growing number of people myself included, as has been mentioned previously in the thread are going "fuck, marriage/kids is/are terrible, why would I do something like that to myself" and choosing not to, ever. I'm well educated have a decent job, and would sooner stab myself in the eye with a spork than do that
Do what you want 'cause a bachelor is free,
YOU ARE A BACHELOR!
...
as I mentioned in my hyperbolic post earlier, I'd much rather be prepared financially or otherwise for the next stages in my life (marriage, owning a house, having kids, etc) and if that means delaying the things that apparently make me a "man" to a later stage in my life then I don't care, I'd much rather enjoy myself along the way. The old cliché, "stop and smell the roses" seems pretty damn relevant to this particular topic.
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
Some guys 'grow up', some don't. Same with girls. There are females I know who haven't quite gotten past the high school levels of gossip in their lives, and some who have.
This is a good point, because it points out the double-standard of the entire argument.
Women are generally allowed to stay immature and dependant on parents or husbands with very little commentary from society. One of the biggest problems between my brother and his wife early in their marriage was how she still saw her father as her primary authority and provider, when it should have been only herself. She got mad and upset when she and my brother couldn't just buy her a new car on a whim or go on a vacation on impulse, because her parents still treated her like a child in her late twenties, and she liked being treated that way.
Things have gotten better, but there's still not the social pressure on her to stop acting so infantile. Unlike, say, a family friend in his mid-20s who has never left home or finished school or had a meaningful job or relationship. He gets shit on all the time for it, and not totally undeservedly, but it would be totally different if he was a woman. A girl in her 20s who has little worldly experience and stays at home is probably the ideal for many fathers, as well as men looking for traditional roles in potential mates.
Yeah, I know a few women in their 20's who still see their parents as authority figures.
I, unfortunately, learned the hard way at a young age that my parents may think they're doing things in my best interest, but in reality they're hurting me big time (basically I worked my entire teenage life to fuel a revolving debt my parents had that eventually destroyed my credit and savings).
I find it really baffling when a 22 year old woman basically told me that she needs her parents permission to do things. I mean, this woman isn't one of those gals who was homeschooled by an ultra conservative household.
I mean, really, if this woman is 'successful' as in she haves a career, in a marriage, starting to have kids, etc. Why exactly is she more of an adult if she's dependent on her parents to make choices for her?
Also, the women in the interview had such a odd counter argument to the 'what if a guy doesn't want to get married and have kids?'. She basically said that if every guy doesn't want to have kids, then society would collapse and the world will end. Really? Is that best argument she can come up with? She couldn't at least bring up that married men tend to live longer or something?
Some guys 'grow up', some don't. Same with girls. There are females I know who haven't quite gotten past the high school levels of gossip in their lives, and some who have.
This is a good point, because it points out the double-standard of the entire argument.
Women are generally allowed to stay immature and dependant on parents or husbands with very little commentary from society. One of the biggest problems between my brother and his wife early in their marriage was how she still saw her father as her primary authority and provider, when it should have been only herself. She got mad and upset when she and my brother couldn't just buy her a new car on a whim or go on a vacation on impulse, because her parents still treated her like a child in her late twenties, and she liked being treated that way.
Things have gotten better, but there's still not the social pressure on her to stop acting so infantile. Unlike, say, a family friend in his mid-20s who has never left home or finished school or had a meaningful job or relationship. He gets shit on all the time for it, and not totally undeservedly, but it would be totally different if he was a woman. A girl in her 20s who has little worldly experience and stays at home is probably the ideal for many fathers, as well as men looking for traditional roles in potential mates.
And you hit on the exact reason the writer singled out males. She wants a return to those traditional roles and women not growing up and always expecting someone to take care of them helps her cause.
Of course she thinks society will collapse if everyone isn't getting married right out of college and the women taking menial jobs and pumping out babies and the men bringing home the bacon. She works for a conservative think tank, they are promoting return to an idealized version of the 1950s.
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KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
It's amusing that she hasn't realized that if society did move back to the 1950's social norms that she holds up as ideal, she would never be working as a writer and analyst at a conservative think-tank.
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
It's amusing that she hasn't realized that if society did move back to the 1950's social norms that she holds up as ideal, she would never be working as a writer and analyst at a conservative think-tank.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother about three months after I turned 18. A friend from work was transfering someplace else, so they were going to have a going away party/ birthday party combo thing the the only strip club that allowed 18 year olds. So I told her that what I was doing, where I was going and that I didn't know what time I'd be home. She didn't even bat an eye. Later she told me she was glad I hadn't asked for permission, or any kind of approval. (She's a pretty old school hippie/feminist and hates stripclubs) Paraphrasing, she said she was glad I knew I was adult enough to not need permission anymore for life choices. Not that I feel like I was an adult back then, looking back i can see the things I was blind to at the time. But, I do have a mortgage now, just paid off my car, have a friend comming over tomorrow to tell me how to decorate in the style I like when I remodel. I can't say I'm not an adult now, aside from being single at an age when most men are actually married with kids.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
I left home at 18 to go away to university. 4.5 years at school, i was still a bit uncertain at going out into the world, but I did it anyways (without finishing school because wow young and stupid was i). Moved to maine to live with the boyfriend mentioned above.
Anecdotal sob story goes here:
First 4 years were good, we both had a good job for the phone company, we had money to pay the bills (mostly) and no real debt. But then the job disappeared and being stupid i agreed to stay on at the company until our office shut down while he stayed at home after quitting.
Please see credit card debt rising. The job disappeared and I took the severance package. paid off some of the debt, prepaid some rent on our new place while waiting to hear back from other job. Didn't get other job. lived off severance for a while, doing whatever we wanted. Finally I got a part time job at walmart. He still did not. This was the last year and half of our relationship. me working a part time job, almost full time hours, and him not. Please see more debt and debt and backbills and eviction notices and sheriffs coming to the door, and suspended license because i can't afford the car insurance, let alone registration and inspection for the car.
I got a rude awakening, but through it all i didn't quite have it too rough because I could call my father to help. Not the best thing, not learning things necessarily the hard way (although having your car impounded, having to go to court and plead guilty, and having to dip into the 75/week food budget for pay for a taxi leaving 50/week for two people was eye opening). I ended up moving home and living with my parents to get on my feet.
I paid off my debts while still working at walmart and living with my parents. I left walmart shortly after mom got diagnosed with cancer and I took care of the household until I moved down here to new zealand.
I am a fully fledged 'adult' by all counts, turning 30 this summer, but I've never bought my own car. My daddy did that for me. I have no idea how to buy a car, pay my own taxes, i know that I have investments somewhere but no idea what or how much. I am a spoiled spoiled spoiled girl.
And I like to cook and clean, but like hell i'm going to give up my chance at a good job.
But no, Ross, nobody really ever looked down on me, I looked down on myself enough (mostly for not finishing school, which i have done now). But I see your point, and I agree that it's there. There are some people who deserve the derision because they really are just that.... lazy (not the right word, but kinda), and there are some who are just trying to get by.
I know that in my neighborhood back in the states, I was the first to move back home, with the guy across the street soon to follow, and then the twins around the corner. All because we were all just so over our heads we needed a solid footing to get ourselves back together. The twins are going back to university, the guy across the street is doing culinary school, and i'm halfway around the world.
And I know that nobody said anything to any of us about us being.... whatever this person is complaining about...
And you hit on the exact reason the writer singled out males. She wants a return to those traditional roles and women not growing up and always expecting someone to take care of them helps her cause.
Of course she thinks society will collapse if everyone isn't getting married right out of college and the women taking menial jobs and pumping out babies and the men bringing home the bacon. She works for a conservative think tank, they are promoting return to an idealized version of the 1950s.
Yeah, as our society has shifted away from authoritarianism, some stragglers remain behind. It's like they don't get that we're essentially maturing as a society. The old values were flawed more than they were positive, so we adapt and change. The change can cause anxiety and some can't accept it as well as others. I'm sure we all have fond nostalgia of being children, but for the most part we don't actively try to remain in that stage(by which I mean innocence). I think that aspect of our nature can be reflected in society at large as well.
It feels weird even stating something like this, as after reading about this woman it just brings home the obviousness about these things. The whole reaction of this thread is basically 'what is there not to get?'. I can sort of understand why a lot of conservatives feel marginalized.
I can sort of understand why a lot of conservatives feel marginalized.
To be fair, feeling marginalized is sort of a thing for some conservatives, even in the face of statistics showing that they are anything but.
I had an argument on Facebook (yes, I know) with someone wherein she claimed that being Christian made her a minority in the US. Nope, not according to wiki. Okay, in California. Nope, still wrong. Okay, in the SF Bay Area. Couldn't find demographic data on that are in particular, but a quick Google map search showed an awful lot of churches for a 'minority'.
Some people simply need to see themselves as the underdog, despite being a 200 pound Mastiff in a park filled with terriers and labs.
Forar on
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
One things that kind of irks me is I live at home and get the occasional "Oh... I see" look over it which, whatever, I'm used to it. But when any of my female friends who are in the same situation reveal they're in the same boat to one of people I got the look from none of them has ever batted an eyelash.
Hard to restrain myself from looking at the person and asking "Fucking seriously?"
My fiancee is trying to get her boss to push on of his daughters out of the house. She's really taking advantage of the situation and is one class away from finishing college. She has the audacity to get annoyed with him for coming home early from work despite him being the only bread winner in the house.
I know this was a page or two ago, but Kay Hymowitz has explicitly said that feminism is obsolete and has referred to "feminists" as a group she's not a part of ("they" rather than "we," plus mocking the work of feminists in the UN). She doesn't think she's a feminist, and no feminists do, either. Using one (non-feminist at a minimum, i'm more inclined to say anti-feminist) woman's obnoxious regressive gender policing as an excuse to bash feminism is pretty weak.
She's considering the time he's at work her time in the house I imagine.
I'll admit I occasionally groan if one of my parents comes home early on my day off but it's only because my plans to practice harmonica or play the shit out of Rock Band super loud are out the window because that'd be rude as hell to do with other people in the house who just got off work and want to unwind. Not really annoyance so much as... I dunno, disappointment maybe?
I know this was a page or two ago, but Kay Hymowitz has explicitly said that feminism is obsolete and has referred to "feminists" as a group she's not a part of ("they" rather than "we," plus mocking the work of feminists in the UN). She doesn't think she's a feminist, and no feminists do, either. Using one (non-feminist at a minimum, i'm more inclined to say anti-feminist) woman's obnoxious regressive gender policing as an excuse to bash feminism is pretty weak.
You realize almost the entire thread has been focused on calling her bullshit "bullshit" and not on bashing feminism, right?
I know this was a page or two ago, but Kay Hymowitz has explicitly said that feminism is obsolete and has referred to "feminists" as a group she's not a part of ("they" rather than "we," plus mocking the work of feminists in the UN). She doesn't think she's a feminist, and no feminists do, either. Using one (non-feminist at a minimum, i'm more inclined to say anti-feminist) woman's obnoxious regressive gender policing as an excuse to bash feminism is pretty weak.
You realize almost the entire thread has been focused on calling her bullshit "bullshit" and not on bashing feminism, right?
maybe your block list is longer than mine? and i didn't mean to add to an echo chamber on page 4, just wanted to offer some information from the horse's mouth since some were still operating with the misconception that Hymowitz calls herself a feminist, which the linked feministe article didn't specifically refute.
I know this was a page or two ago, but Kay Hymowitz has explicitly said that feminism is obsolete and has referred to "feminists" as a group she's not a part of ("they" rather than "we," plus mocking the work of feminists in the UN). She doesn't think she's a feminist, and no feminists do, either. Using one (non-feminist at a minimum, i'm more inclined to say anti-feminist) woman's obnoxious regressive gender policing as an excuse to bash feminism is pretty weak.
You realize almost the entire thread has been focused on calling her bullshit "bullshit" and not on bashing feminism, right?
Did you read the first two pages of the thread?
Kistra on
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She's considering the time he's at work her time in the house I imagine.
I'll admit I occasionally groan if one of my parents comes home early on my day off but it's only because my plans to practice harmonica or play the shit out of Rock Band super loud are out the window because that'd be rude as hell to do with other people in the house who just got off work and want to unwind. Not really annoyance so much as... I dunno, disappointment maybe?
Posts
Chipot-LE.
P1) Outside of military service, there's not a lot of gainful employment a highschool graduate can aspire to these days, and it's only going to get worse as the economy slumps. Low skilled positions are always the first to be redundant or outsourced or eliminated by technology.
As well, much like Professor Hubert Farnsworth predicted, bachelors' degrees of today are like the high school diplomas of yesteryear, i.e., fairly worthless in many contexts. And if you need post-bachelors credit or additional certification, that costs money, and money spent on rent when you can live at home for free is kind of pissing away value future economic leverage. When my brother went back to school, my parents moved him AND his wife into their house because it would save them $15,000 in rent over two years. That's a ton of cash, and certainly a good chunk toward a mortgage downpayment some time in the future.
P2) Sexual dynamics have changed significantly in the last 50 years, and that trickles down into almost every facet of life.
The struggle of women's rights and equality has inherently led to a situation of romantic dynamics being on more equal footing. If women aren't expected to be housewives, at some point men can't be expected to be the primary breadwinner. Depending on peripheral factors like costs of living, it may be more financially prudent for men to stay home and raise kids.
Several generations on, this will lead to a child-rearing style that will put significantly less impetus on male children to "go forth and be a man," and this will always have the unfortunate side effect of creating a marginal amount of formless man-children. I currently know of two such people, one older and one younger, and their lives are difficult now because of how awkward they were allowed to become.
All in all, while I feel these phenomena exist, I'm not entirely sure these phenomena necessitate further action.
Hard to restrain myself from looking at the person and asking "Fucking seriously?"
It's a double standard, but one rooted in Western traditions of women not leaving their parents house until they were married.
I mean, neither of my grandmothers had any other residences than their parents' or husbands' houses. Even my brother's wife, despite being a working woman, never lived anywhere on her own outside of the dorms at college. She moved back in after graduation, and then years later moved in with my brother the week before they had their wedding.
Amusingly enough I may be moving in with one of said friends sometime in the near future. She'd make a pretty kick ass roomate but I'm kinda still on the fence because she just started a new job and I'm not 100% on the reliability aspect of things yet.
I don't regret it, but depending on the cost of living and ones income, it's not an insignificant sum.
I agree very much. I know a lot of people, in a lot of age ranges. None of the men or boys I know are slacking around, they are all working very hard at something, be it school or a career. This woman dug up some anecdotes & outliers, and turned it into a book to make some money.
To me, she just doesn't understand what men do for fun these days. I've got all of the stuff she thinks I should - wife, kids, career, mortgage, post-graduate degree - but I spend 100% of my hobby time on computer & video games. I'm sure she would be happier if I was on a golf course, but that game is so damn boring.
I can see a woman being upset that the guy in her life was ignoring her in favor of playing MMO's or whatever. But I don't see any rational argument that gaming is inherently worse to a relationship than any other hobby.
Rigorous Scholarship
My wife actually explained to me how, for her, it really was worse having me "right there" but not available. That it would be different, and preferable, to have me out somewhere "with the guys" even if the amount of time was the same.
still catching up, so forgive me if somebody else has answered this
the woman is a moron and really quite embarrassing.
Now, that being said, I dated somebody that never quite got out of his early 20s. He peaked at about 22 and that was about it. and after working for 2 years at walmart part time to try and support the both of us while he stayed home, slept, ate, played video games, and I was taking on more and more debt, I hit the bottom and got out.
And moves home to live with my parents and work my life back to normal (i was,however, living in my old room and not the basement).
So, these guys do exist. Now, would his having gotten married and having kids have changed anything? Nope. He probably would have still done just what he did and I would have been even more stuck than I was at that point.
Some guys 'grow up', some don't. Same with girls. There are females I know who haven't quite gotten past the high school levels of gossip in their lives, and some who have.
But it has nothing really to do with the video games and movies or star wars or bikes or whatever. society plays a part, i'll agree with that.
but this woman seems to just be... ugh, I dunno, but I've rarely agreed with just about everybody in this thread (that i've read up to this point) as i do about this.
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Also, before we get too gamer-defensive, I think it's good to step back and realize that playing video games solely isn't necessarily the best recreation strategy either, mixing in some other hobbies is probably better for your health and happiness long term.
Comedy Option:
I can understand a spouse not wanting to directly compete for attention, and expecting to have a partner's attention as a matter of right. Out of sight, out of mind.
From my own experience, I really had to learn to hit the pause key as soon as my wife walked up. This is difficult in MMOs, so I had to learn to only instance/raid when she was asleep. If I was just out soloing, I had to learn to just turn away from the mobs & accept the death. Of course, when I need her & we are relaxing, I have to wait for her round of Bejeweled Blitz to end before speaking. ;-)
If you use Erikson's Psychosocial Theory to define the stages of life (Infant, Toddler, Preschool, Schoolchild, Adolescent, Young Adult, Mid-Adult, Late Adult), there is a stage that is forming that has never existed before. Somewhere between Adolescent and Young Adult there is a new stage. Someone who emotionally a Young Adult but is societally still an Adolescent. College graduates moving back in with their parents, unable to get career-oriented jobs and not having kids or getting married right after college graduation. This has a lot to do with an oversaturated job market but also with societal expectations.
I think the article is entirely unfair. This is a life stage for both genders. Both males and females are participating in this prolonged adolescence, and to blame it on one gender, and to go even farther and purport that the gender is actively choosing to stay in this life stage is not only an uneducated argument but also a pretty stupid one.
This is a good point, because it points out the double-standard of the entire argument.
Women are generally allowed to stay immature and dependant on parents or husbands with very little commentary from society. One of the biggest problems between my brother and his wife early in their marriage was how she still saw her father as her primary authority and provider, when it should have been only herself. She got mad and upset when she and my brother couldn't just buy her a new car on a whim or go on a vacation on impulse, because her parents still treated her like a child in her late twenties, and she liked being treated that way.
Things have gotten better, but there's still not the social pressure on her to stop acting so infantile. Unlike, say, a family friend in his mid-20s who has never left home or finished school or had a meaningful job or relationship. He gets shit on all the time for it, and not totally undeservedly, but it would be totally different if he was a woman. A girl in her 20s who has little worldly experience and stays at home is probably the ideal for many fathers, as well as men looking for traditional roles in potential mates.
Do what you want 'cause a bachelor is free,
YOU ARE A BACHELOR!
...
as I mentioned in my hyperbolic post earlier, I'd much rather be prepared financially or otherwise for the next stages in my life (marriage, owning a house, having kids, etc) and if that means delaying the things that apparently make me a "man" to a later stage in my life then I don't care, I'd much rather enjoy myself along the way. The old cliché, "stop and smell the roses" seems pretty damn relevant to this particular topic.
Yeah, I know a few women in their 20's who still see their parents as authority figures.
I, unfortunately, learned the hard way at a young age that my parents may think they're doing things in my best interest, but in reality they're hurting me big time (basically I worked my entire teenage life to fuel a revolving debt my parents had that eventually destroyed my credit and savings).
I find it really baffling when a 22 year old woman basically told me that she needs her parents permission to do things. I mean, this woman isn't one of those gals who was homeschooled by an ultra conservative household.
I mean, really, if this woman is 'successful' as in she haves a career, in a marriage, starting to have kids, etc. Why exactly is she more of an adult if she's dependent on her parents to make choices for her?
Also, the women in the interview had such a odd counter argument to the 'what if a guy doesn't want to get married and have kids?'. She basically said that if every guy doesn't want to have kids, then society would collapse and the world will end. Really? Is that best argument she can come up with? She couldn't at least bring up that married men tend to live longer or something?
Didn't you read Y: The Last Man?
Though to be fair a couple decades later women perfect cloning and we have flying cars and shit and, well, it didn't look so bad truth be told.
Wait... shit.
And you hit on the exact reason the writer singled out males. She wants a return to those traditional roles and women not growing up and always expecting someone to take care of them helps her cause.
Of course she thinks society will collapse if everyone isn't getting married right out of college and the women taking menial jobs and pumping out babies and the men bringing home the bacon. She works for a conservative think tank, they are promoting return to an idealized version of the 1950s.
That would be called poetic justice.
Anecdotal sob story goes here:
Please see credit card debt rising. The job disappeared and I took the severance package. paid off some of the debt, prepaid some rent on our new place while waiting to hear back from other job. Didn't get other job. lived off severance for a while, doing whatever we wanted. Finally I got a part time job at walmart. He still did not. This was the last year and half of our relationship. me working a part time job, almost full time hours, and him not. Please see more debt and debt and backbills and eviction notices and sheriffs coming to the door, and suspended license because i can't afford the car insurance, let alone registration and inspection for the car.
I got a rude awakening, but through it all i didn't quite have it too rough because I could call my father to help. Not the best thing, not learning things necessarily the hard way (although having your car impounded, having to go to court and plead guilty, and having to dip into the 75/week food budget for pay for a taxi leaving 50/week for two people was eye opening). I ended up moving home and living with my parents to get on my feet.
I paid off my debts while still working at walmart and living with my parents. I left walmart shortly after mom got diagnosed with cancer and I took care of the household until I moved down here to new zealand.
And I like to cook and clean, but like hell i'm going to give up my chance at a good job.
But no, Ross, nobody really ever looked down on me, I looked down on myself enough (mostly for not finishing school, which i have done now). But I see your point, and I agree that it's there. There are some people who deserve the derision because they really are just that.... lazy (not the right word, but kinda), and there are some who are just trying to get by.
I know that in my neighborhood back in the states, I was the first to move back home, with the guy across the street soon to follow, and then the twins around the corner. All because we were all just so over our heads we needed a solid footing to get ourselves back together. The twins are going back to university, the guy across the street is doing culinary school, and i'm halfway around the world.
And I know that nobody said anything to any of us about us being.... whatever this person is complaining about...
and i'm rambling again.. gonna shut up now
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It feels weird even stating something like this, as after reading about this woman it just brings home the obviousness about these things. The whole reaction of this thread is basically 'what is there not to get?'. I can sort of understand why a lot of conservatives feel marginalized.
To be fair, feeling marginalized is sort of a thing for some conservatives, even in the face of statistics showing that they are anything but.
I had an argument on Facebook (yes, I know) with someone wherein she claimed that being Christian made her a minority in the US. Nope, not according to wiki. Okay, in California. Nope, still wrong. Okay, in the SF Bay Area. Couldn't find demographic data on that are in particular, but a quick Google map search showed an awful lot of churches for a 'minority'.
Some people simply need to see themselves as the underdog, despite being a 200 pound Mastiff in a park filled with terriers and labs.
My fiancee is trying to get her boss to push on of his daughters out of the house. She's really taking advantage of the situation and is one class away from finishing college. She has the audacity to get annoyed with him for coming home early from work despite him being the only bread winner in the house.
She's angry her dad comes home from work ... because? I mean.. what?
I'll admit I occasionally groan if one of my parents comes home early on my day off but it's only because my plans to practice harmonica or play the shit out of Rock Band super loud are out the window because that'd be rude as hell to do with other people in the house who just got off work and want to unwind. Not really annoyance so much as... I dunno, disappointment maybe?
You realize almost the entire thread has been focused on calling her bullshit "bullshit" and not on bashing feminism, right?
maybe your block list is longer than mine? and i didn't mean to add to an echo chamber on page 4, just wanted to offer some information from the horse's mouth since some were still operating with the misconception that Hymowitz calls herself a feminist, which the linked feministe article didn't specifically refute.
Did you read the first two pages of the thread?
Is that what they call it these days :winky:
http://www.theonion.com/video/cases-of-shaken-manchild-syndrome-on-the-rise,19783/
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