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Afghanistan, Iraq, and Looking the Other Way
override367
ALL minionsRegistered User regular
ALL minionsRegistered User regular
Split from the Libya thread
Now this isn't an isolated incident by any means, you can find NSFW videos of soldiers "hunting" civilians on youtube if you do more than a cursory lookup, but what exactly am I talking about here?
In the other thread Loklar misinterpreted my intent (I believe) thusly
I don't feel it necessary to put in a disclaimer here saying that it's not representative of the folks in the military at large, blah blah blah, since of course it isn't and that is a red herring and not really the point. I don't feel that I should have to point out that both of my brothers, my father, and my best friend are combat veterans, but I will anyway before someone accuses me of just being a military hater.
What is there to talk about then really if I'm not trying to insinuate that each and every soldier is a baby killer? Well I'm trying to impune the U.S. Army (and probably the Marine Corps) as an organization, and not just for looking the other way when there are psychos about.
The Army has a long history of turning its back on unpleasantness, sweeping it under the rug and pretending it doesn't exist. The problem isn't that the individuals in question weren't punished, the problem is how long this went on, the problem is that command staff and the general attitude is to look the other way. This happens for multiple reasons, in many cases it comes down to ass covering and not malevolence, but it certainly does happen, probably most severely when it comes to depression and suicides.
So how's the Army handling things? Am I being unfair, or do they do a bad job at dealing with psychological issues and fuckups in general by pretending they don't exist (everything from sociopaths to suicide)? There seems to a complete and total disconnect between the strategic objectives and mottos of the Army and the attitude perpetuated by the ground level command. I know every soldier is told how serious suicide is, and i also know that a soldier covered in the blood of some kid that goes to his CO has a good chance of being called a pussy for letting it bug him. I know the generals realize how important it is to not let soldiers (justifiably traumatized they may be) go on about how all the hajis should just be killed, but lower level officers and NCOs don't seem to. Why is this?
me wrote:what the fuck, United States Army, what the fuck?
TLDR: Soldiers kill Afghans for sport, children, seniors, whatever, mutilate their bodies and keep parts as trophies. Officers ignore it, even when a soldier's dad phones that the soldier could be killed by the other guys for "Ratting"
Yikes!
Now this isn't an isolated incident by any means, you can find NSFW videos of soldiers "hunting" civilians on youtube if you do more than a cursory lookup, but what exactly am I talking about here?
In the other thread Loklar misinterpreted my intent (I believe) thusly
Truly tragic and disgusting stuff. Nonetheless, it is still shoddy journalism that starts off with a tragedy and turns the event into a screed against military action and the people in our armed forces. It uses misleading videos that have /nothing/ to do with the actions of the men described in the article, it displays an abundance of ignorance about the operation of our military, and mostly uses inflammatory language/misdirection to drum up anger about some sort of mutilation/sadistic culture in our military that simply does not exist.
ACIS plea bargained one of the 5 men (out of a brigade of 3,500) down to 24 years in jail... and thats the plea. There are over a million men in the Army alone, not counting the Corps, the Air Force, the Navy or the Coast Guard. To argue that a few sick individuals are representative of some sort of culture is absolutely moronic. Soldiers are being held accountable for this and they are in for a shitstorm of trouble. Publishing an article like this, in this fashion, will provide pure propaganda for the enemy. It is one thing to report on what it is happening. It is another for this 'journalist' to speculate on intent, use the events as a platform to paint the Stryker Brigade in whole as some sort of band of brigands and war criminals. I put a stop payment on my subscription to Rolling Stone and you should too.
I don't feel it necessary to put in a disclaimer here saying that it's not representative of the folks in the military at large, blah blah blah, since of course it isn't and that is a red herring and not really the point. I don't feel that I should have to point out that both of my brothers, my father, and my best friend are combat veterans, but I will anyway before someone accuses me of just being a military hater.
What is there to talk about then really if I'm not trying to insinuate that each and every soldier is a baby killer? Well I'm trying to impune the U.S. Army (and probably the Marine Corps) as an organization, and not just for looking the other way when there are psychos about.
The Army has a long history of turning its back on unpleasantness, sweeping it under the rug and pretending it doesn't exist. The problem isn't that the individuals in question weren't punished, the problem is how long this went on, the problem is that command staff and the general attitude is to look the other way. This happens for multiple reasons, in many cases it comes down to ass covering and not malevolence, but it certainly does happen, probably most severely when it comes to depression and suicides.
So how's the Army handling things? Am I being unfair, or do they do a bad job at dealing with psychological issues and fuckups in general by pretending they don't exist (everything from sociopaths to suicide)? There seems to a complete and total disconnect between the strategic objectives and mottos of the Army and the attitude perpetuated by the ground level command. I know every soldier is told how serious suicide is, and i also know that a soldier covered in the blood of some kid that goes to his CO has a good chance of being called a pussy for letting it bug him. I know the generals realize how important it is to not let soldiers (justifiably traumatized they may be) go on about how all the hajis should just be killed, but lower level officers and NCOs don't seem to. Why is this?
override367 on
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That said, this needs to be made louder and clearer because this sort of thing is straight up murder and there is no conceivable justification for it.
It's more alarming to me in light of the recent scandal in Australia regarding what some soldiers posted on their Facebook pages.
It's not super-egrerious, but you need to clamp down on that hard because it clearly leads to bad places.
I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the command structure being graded on the performance of their subordinates or not. I know that's what causes it in corporate culture (if I report you for stealing shit, it'll show up on my manager review as a negative mark. I'm now more inclined to pretend it didn't happen publicly, and just chew you out in private)
But we've known about these issues for years. I'm recalling an article on deployed women being raped by other soldiers, and the base commanders pretty much doing anything they could to keep it from being a public scandal. Which leads to the fringe "will misbehave" element thinking they have free reign to misbehave, because they never see people being locked up for it.
I firmly believe if psychological issues were more of a priority in the military none of the above would be near as much a problem.
We shouldn't paint everyone in uniform as monsters (and I don't see that being an issue), but we can't ignore that there may be a culture within the forces that promotes the type of disgusting acts we are now seeing.
I don't think that this is a problem we can fix, we could tweek the psych screening to try and avoid certain people from joining up, but it won't be a perfect solution.
No, because most of these people aren't rapists, suicidal, or psychotic before joining the military. What I read in that Rolling Stone piece was about a bunch of young men facing nothing but death and injury with no enemy to fight, people very near the breaking point, and some of them actually broke.
I can certainly blame the individuals for their actions, but what we can also do is insist the Army have some damned accountability for stuff like this happening. If the testimony is to be believed, there were warning signs for a long time before anyone was actually charged.
The Armed Forces can fix it. Specifically, they can fix it by changing the culture that promotes excessive violence and hides problems. The military is not immutable. Their mission is not so critical that they are above reproach. In many ways they are more than just a tool to deliver violence, they are also representatives of their nation to other nations. It is part of their mission that they respond to incidents like these in a manner that reassures the victims countrymen.
(BTW, also not an anti-military poster. I'm a vet, if that matters to you. It doesn't to me)
The part that gets me the angriest in the article is the following: Seriously, what the fuck Captain?
I mean honestly, any good leader should've been able to stop this from happening. If the men are actively and seriously talking about "killing a haji" that sort of discussion should've been picked up on. It's all fun and games, but when they start getting serious about it that's when you're supposed to put your foot down and say, "hey silly geese, I thought you where joking, but if I so much see you look weird at a civilian I'll shoot you myself and make it so that your parents back home can't identify you and you have a close casket funeral". Never at any point should they be allowed to fester on the discussion of actively killing a civilian. It's like letting a group of kids go out with no plans: idle hands leads to trouble.
I mean, come on!
I find it insulting that none of the Officers are being charged. The CPT and the 1LT need to be some of the people included in the charges, then the Lt. Col and commander of the Battalion. Since it was their squad leader doing most of the stupidity, the Platoon sergeant should've known, he should've been aware, he's just as responsible as the rest of them. I'd send to prison anyone involved, reduce in rank and force retire/separate any of the higher enlisted or officers who had minimal connection with it, and just go full on clean house of the entire battalion. The message needs to be, yes we know they fucked up so we're getting rid of them. This kind of shit should not and will not be tolerated.
You want to jump start culture change? Reduce the size of the military and rebuild it: institute forced separation, retirement, and out process a shit ton of people. Oh, and actually punish the people involved in this. It's already public, you might as well offer them up as a lamb, the reason for the drastic change about to happen.
Bring down the hammer on all of them involved. Every single last one of them. Anyone who kills civilians is no comrade/brother of mine.
Shortened, retyped, clif notes version.
Irresponsible journalism to lump the "Motorcycle Kill" video in with murdering civilians. That and the "Death Zone" video are code of conduct violations, but not murder.
Evig has it right, I agree with everything he just said.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
I'm only talking about personal problems though, these aren't even things that are illegal. Imagine now that Captain's position if he'd heard some of his men were murdering innocent civilians. How do you think he's going to react as a human being that needs to watch out for himself? If he looks into the issue and finds out his men really are killing civilians and he punishes them what are the odds that he's still going to be reprimanded/punished himself for letting it happen under his watch? So in that case which is easier, sitting back and doing nothing because there's no hard evidence or looking into this matter which could potential endanger his career or, at best if found to be true, reduce his combat capabilities by the loss of men while adding additional stressors in the form of legal concerns.
I'm not for a second saying that the captain should have let this fly under his radar without looking into it, but I think it's a lot easier to say he or she should have done this or that when we're looking in from an outsider's perspective. If the military wants to truly get away from this culture of sweeping issues under the rug then they have to stop giving lipservice to everyone and actually hold to their word when they promise non-retribution reporting.
Some people are fucking morons who value books of fairy tales more than human life.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
Anyone who beheaded a human being because they are butthurt about some other asshole burning a book is a fucking moron. This is not up for debate.
Back on topic; I'm also disgusted that more brass doesn't have their ass in a sling over this. We had captains lose their command over something as simple as some slicky boy stealing night vision equipment.
This is what I'm talking about and its kind of really sad that it gets absolutely no play on the news.
Are you attempting to justify the death of people with the burning of a book? Yes, if you are offended by the burning of any book enough to kill you're a fucking moron-and anyone who believes in this justification is probably an even bigger moron.
It pretty much has to. How can you kill people and sleep soundly at night without first dehumanizing them? It's much easier if you didn't "end the life of a fellow human being," but rather "neutralized a tango".
Trophy-taking has been going on forever. I'd be more surprised to hear of any significant, prolonged combat situation where it didn't happen. In any fighting force.