I'm going to ask an admittedly racist question: how much does the misogyny in Robotech (or any other anime) reflect the sexual values of Japan in general?
A lot.
Japan is pretty damn far behind the developed world on sexual equality issues.
And Robotech (or rather Macross I guess) is leagues ahead of even a lot of shows coming out now.
Goddamit I really hate to do this, and know that I am doing this with all respect
Citations?
Have you ever played a game by Capcom?
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
Where do Ranma Saotomi and Akane Tendo fit into these characterizations? I think the whole gender flipping actions of Ranma are actually pretty interesting because they set up, at least the appearance that a person can be the same no matter the gender, it's more in how the world treats them that the differences are shown.
Akane, for her part seems to lack all of the classic feminine traits and doesn't take shit from most people.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
But practically every time she speaks, it's to say something that is forcefully corrected by a male subordinate 4 seconds later while she looks sheepish.
I wouldn't consider this to be an accurate description. Generally she is playing the straight-laced by the book career military officer to Rick's rogue ace pilot who doesn't follow the rules.
This might be the case, but it really doesn't change that every time she's spoken up so far about anything, she's been wrong. And almost immediately corrected about it by a male character. If she's just supposed to be "by the book", then apparently the book was written by someone with a major brain injury.
Is the Sargent telling the rogue cop not to go in and shoot all the kidnappers/mob bosses/etc ever right (with the obvious exception of films deliberately subverting the trope)?
That said she's right plenty of times. Especially once Rick gets promoted to lead his own squad, he gets a much better appreciation for the burden of command and the reason's why you don't just rush half-cocked into things and get people killed.
My more general point is that Robotech is a strange series to use as the basis for this discussion considering it is downright progressive by the standards of the time and genre.
Death Note would be a much better example.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Yeah, and then the entire point of football is the objectification of actual men. Use those muscles; fight each other for our amusement! If our laws were a little less strict, we'd have you fighting to the death in your arenas, just like the good ole' days!
Of course, the counterpoint here is that those men are being objectified at least in some capacity for their skills and physical capabilities, and not simply how great their ass looks between those hip pads.
Not all objectifications are equal.
Sure, not all objectifications are equal. But to be honest, if I just took your post out of context, it would actually seem pretty misogynistic. The girls' activities take no skill, of course! :P I doubt I'd be up to par for the taxing physical/mental requirements that pro cheerleading takes. And you have to admit at least some of the objectification of cheerleaders has to do with flexibility, right? *wink nudge*
But I'm not trying to play the oppression olympics here, all I'm saying is that football has a lot of 'ism going on.
But practically every time she speaks, it's to say something that is forcefully corrected by a male subordinate 4 seconds later while she looks sheepish.
I wouldn't consider this to be an accurate description. Generally she is playing the straight-laced by the book career military officer to Rick's rogue ace pilot who doesn't follow the rules.
This might be the case, but it really doesn't change that every time she's spoken up so far about anything, she's been wrong. And almost immediately corrected about it by a male character. If she's just supposed to be "by the book", then apparently the book was written by someone with a major brain injury.
Is the Sargent telling the rogue cop not to go in and shoot all the kidnappers/mob bosses/etc ever right (with the obvious exception of films deliberately subverting the trope)?
That said she's right plenty of times. Especially once Rick gets promoted to lead his own squad, he gets a much better appreciation for the burden of command and the reason's why you don't just rush half-cocked into things and get people killed.
My more general point is that Robotech is a strange series to use as the basis for this discussion considering it is downright progressive by the standards of the time and genre.
Death Note would be a much better example.
I'm up to episode 10 or so, so Rick's got his own squad but it's only been that way for a few shows. At this point it really seems like she's just completely incompetent.
Robotech was the genesis for this discussion because it was what I was watching at the time. If it is some kind of progressive benchmark for anime (a medium that I have limited experience with) then that is rather troubling.
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
Was that like the fourth or fifth episode in? When they're trapped in the bowels of the ship? You're probably better off. As "important" or "classic" as Robotech/Macross is to modern animation it hasn't really aged well. A lot of the characters seem more like caricatures, and yes, the female characters in particular suffer for it. I had to force myself through the entire series a few years back and a lot of it was pure torture (and I say this as a fan of the later Macross series' when these themes and characterizations were handled much more even-handedly).
It's probably a function of its time. How many strong female characters were there in most early 80s animated shows, especially those marketed squarely towards boys? I'm struggling to come up with the names of five total female recurring characters in He-Man for instance. Thundercats had two? Three? But they were at least competant... The only women I can pick out of the original Macross cast who actually excelled at her job is Miriya, and she
married her rival after two episodes.
Right around there, yeah, I can't remember it was a while back. I understand what you mean about the 80s in general, it's why I am very careful about my Nostalgia, some shows are best never re-watched when you're old enough to know what's really going on. I was using it mostly as an example of when I try to draw my own lines. To me at that point she felt like she was just a cardboard caricature and that combined with how the other characterizations were made me feel completely unable to immerse myself in the show at all. If I can't get into it, I just don't bother finishing it.
Fushigi Yuugi I was able to mostly make myself watch all the way through, and it can be pretty bad at times too. Maccross so far though just had not given me one thing to consider redeeming in all of about the first eight episodes or so I saw on Hulu though.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
Where do Ranma Saotomi and Akane Tendo fit into these characterizations? I think the whole gender flipping actions of Ranma are actually pretty interesting because they set up, at least the appearance that a person can be the same no matter the gender, it's more in how the world treats them that the differences are shown.
Akane, for her part seems to lack all of the classic feminine traits and doesn't take shit from most people.
Ranma, and most harem animes, are about groups of girls throwing themselves at the protagonist and doing almost anything to win him over.
So no, not exactly all that better.
The interesting thing here about Ranma, as you say this, is that the author is a woman.
I also don't actually consider Ranma as really being a harem anime. It's more of a multiple love triangle anime as several of the major male characters were pursuing the girls too, and I believe it was pretty popular with girls too. Hell some of the guys were pursuing female Ranma.
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
Family bonds and large extended family, adherence to traditions like chinese new year or traditional foods, loss of familial knowledge like language or skills.
One of the hardest things for one of my friends his is loss of proficiency in Chinese after he moved away from home because his parents, while heavily accented yet fluent enough in english, mostly communicated in chinese with him his entire life and it's put an impediment in communication with them. He views it as a really integral part of who he is because it's how he communicates with people he cares about, but he is the last of his family that will resemble himself.
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Where do Ranma Saotomi and Akane Tendo fit into these characterizations? I think the whole gender flipping actions of Ranma are actually pretty interesting because they set up, at least the appearance that a person can be the same no matter the gender, it's more in how the world treats them that the differences are shown.
Akane, for her part seems to lack all of the classic feminine traits and doesn't take shit from most people.
Ranma, and most harem animes, are about groups of girls throwing themselves at the protagonist and doing almost anything to win him over.
So no, not exactly all that better.
The interesting thing here about Ranma, as you say this, is that the author is a woman.
I also don't actually consider Ranma as really being a harem anime. It's more of a multiple love triangle anime as several of the major male characters were pursuing the girls too, and I believe it was pretty popular with girls too.
Well that's what makes it interesting to me; because of the multiple love triangles and Ranma's gender switching, it really highlights how much the other characters are constrained by how they act towards people based on gender.
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
Family bonds and large extended family, adherence to traditions like chinese new year or traditional foods, loss of familial knowledge like language or skills.
One of the hardest things for one of my friends his is loss of proficiency in Chinese after he moved away from home because his parents, while heavily accented yet fluent enough in english, mostly communicated in chinese with him his entire life and it's put an impediment in communication with them. He views it as a really integral part of who he is because it's how he communicates with people he cares about, but he is the last of his family that will resemble himself.
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
You could throw in being part of the next world superpower after the inevitable decline of the USA. India will probably be next after China starts to decline, but it would probably be near the end of his lifetime anyway.
Also, as a non-American, we could also talk about all the awful qualities of American identity he's taking on instead:
- questionable hygeine habits (antibiotic overuse = lol superbugs)
- weird (and actually dangerous) food - seriously, the Standard American Diet is awful, and every civ that adopted a Western diet has seen their disease rates (diabetes, cancer, heart problems, etc.) go up. The overuse of corn, GMO, and processed food is also questionable.
- the continuing fragmentation and loss of community support causing a decline in psychological health
- declining standard of living as it grows increasingly reliant on importing from other countries
- homophobia and other bigotry born from religion
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Eastern sensibilities
- an unhealthy obsession with guns and violence
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
It can be said to be circular, yes. The usual justification for sticking with old ways is that they've evolved over thousands of years and have worked so far. And change is risk.
All nations struggle with this in many ways, but Asia has some very peculiar instances. Japan in particular has that profound tension between old and new. I won't venture into the psychological ramifications of losing the war and being subject to nuclear bombings. But following the war, they were essentially decimated and rebuilt in the darkest part of America's shadow. This is an Empire that was destroyed and rebuilt as a Liberal Democracy; where America revolted, Japan was reformed from the outside in.
When change happens that fast, and that radically, there is a backlash. As the nation moved into the market economy and into democracy, there emerged a deep psychological need to find ways to reaffirm their identity as Japanese. So they still harbor conservative feelings. They hang onto whatever notions of tradition they have left. Gender roles are, unfortunately, part of that package.
This is the same process, psychologically, that many religious people face. It makes it hard to pry loose because it's considered an element of identity. This is what liberals often lose sight of when we label groups as "backwards." This is a gross oversimplification.
That all said, sexism and bigotry are on the way out in industrialized democracies, and probably also China. It will be a very, very slow process; and I think the gulf between the West and Asia is going to widen before it narrows. But Asian identity will evolve to get rid of these notions, just as religious identities will. When you really think about it, they're not essential to any culture; and maybe more importantly, they're not acceptable in what is an increasingly liberal world.
Does anyone here have any thoughts on Ghost in the Shell in particular? I'm working my way through the series, and halfway into 2nd gig I'm finding its writing is largely mature and thoughtful. It seems to successfully avoid sexist tropes, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. I'm mostly disarmed by how literate and sophisticated it can be.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
Ghost in the Shell is probably one of the most interesting takes on things, because in that universe gender now has a new meaning when you not only have two human genders to worry about but all of the weird permutations therein that cyborg parts allow. Everything takes on a whole new level for instance when you can plug yourself into other people's minds more directly as well.
I'm sure an entire essay on sexuality and Motoko Kusanagi could be written, and in fact I think one forumer in a previous thread said that they'd written one.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
I'm actually rewatching that series myself, and yes it seems far less problematic then your average anime.
It's certainly not perfect, but it does touch upon the objectification of women (given the nature of the setting, frequently quite literally). I'm fairly sensitive to that sorta thing, and it doesn't really bug me outside the Majors average outfit, and sight lack of representation among all the central protagonists. And the second season at least attempts to explore Japans racist attitudes towards immigrants.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
I don't really know how much alienation other ethnic groups feel from both sides but I think a lot of it can be attributed to the originating society and the amount of cultural push has taken place inside the society or culture that one is trying to integrate into. In the case of East Asian immigrants and 1st and 2nd gens look at how insular and conservative the cultural they originate from is and how little asian immigration and population growth has taken place relative to other groups.
And in the case of a lot of southeast asian groups, they didn't come to america because they had grand ideas about being american, rather it was because they were refugees from a relatively recent war.
This feeling of being stuck in the middle isn't unique to Asians though. Mixed race individuals face it all the time especially half black and half white people where they're too black for white people and too white for black people. It's just a question of where this alienation arises from.
Also Asians are a lot more alien than Mexicans, Persian, German, or whatever people who either also came from Europe or at least had a lot of direct contact with Europeans for the past millenia. The fault is not just with Asians, but also how they are received by the people already here. It's a two-way street.
Protip: Asians remember what the Europeans (and Americans) did to them during the past several hundred years of colonialism.
I also like you just lumped Mexicans with all those other groups. Just look at how many anti-immigration laws are basically targeted at them.
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
The difference though is that despite efforts to keep Mexicans out, they have integrated fairly well and have a cultural identity large enough to be recognized in the United States as something that isn't exotic or alien.
Really the question is, what should you do about media that is offensive, and what's the harm?
If you realize that something is being insensitive to race, gender, etc there should be little danger of it negatively affecting your perception of the same.
It's also true though that as a conscientious consumer you should perhaps not financially support something that is socially harmful. But this would seem to apply more to current series rather than something that is decades old. Whatever damage it may have done happened a long time ago.
Finally, I would like to posit that most of the time anything that is really offensive is also just going to be crap all around.
I'm up to episode 10 or so, so Rick's got his own squad but it's only been that way for a few shows. At this point it really seems like she's just completely incompetent.
Robotech was the genesis for this discussion because it was what I was watching at the time. If it is some kind of progressive benchmark for anime (a medium that I have limited experience with) then that is rather troubling.
Again, compare it to Star Trek, where the executives actively decided that the woman shouldn't get to captain the ship even though random guys way lower in rank had done it.
By comparison, Lisa is the commander of the entire flight group, like the second most senior officer amongst the named characters, and gets her own command at the end of the series.
On the other hand, she is a nagging shrew, which is a negative female stereotype. But given that her character is well rounded in all other respects I would think of this more as a character flaw than something that is misogynistic. She needs to learn to be less of a control freak just like Rick needs to learn to be more responsible and less of a jackass. It's character development.
This is even more true I think because there are again other female characters who do not fit this stereotype, like Claudia. Who is doubly amazing for being black and not a horrible racist stereotype, which is quite the accomplishment for anime. Claudia is far more mature than Lisa. But she's not the main character for the same reason Roy isn't, mature characters without obvious flaws are harder to write interestingly.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
That's so ignorant and racist I think I'm going to sig it.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.
I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
That's so ignorant and racist I think I'm going to sig it.
roll eyes[/gif]
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
I don't see why you can't have two cultures, to be quite honest. I'm probably wrong in the opposite way, but can't you simultaneously be proud of being Persian and American? I'm simultaneously proud to be Quebecois and Canadian, but that might not be the same thing since I'm not an immigrant.
But, uhm, can't you have both identities within yourself? i hardly believe one culture can be considered superior to all others. We're all flawed, after all, aren't we?
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
I don't see why you can't have two cultures, to be quite honest. I'm probably wrong in the opposite way, but can't you simultaneously be proud of being Persian and American? I'm simultaneously proud to be Quebecois and Canadian, but that might not be the same thing since I'm not an immigrant.
But, uhm, can't you have both identities within yourself? i hardly believe one culture can be considered superior to all others. We're all flawed, after all, aren't we?
Oh, I think you absolutely can, and I'm honestly all for it. Origination is an important part is knowing our own stories.
My point is that it appears that it's disproportionately one-sided in many Asian communities, though significantly less common each following generation. But I think that's more idiosyncratic and related to typical cultural norms regarding tradition and heritage than just regular ol' communality.
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
Oh, I think you absolutely can, and I'm honestly all for it. Origination is an important part is knowing our own stories.
My point is that it appears that it's disproportionately one-sided in many Asian communities, though significantly less common each following generation. But I think that's more idiosyncratic and related to typical cultural norms regarding tradition and heritage than just regular ol' communality.
I think that might be linked to several factors, such as race (I'm not saying Asians are racially prone to that, I mean it's easier to see Asians and consider them foreign), a language that's based on completely different alphabets and bases, the reasons they immigrated and the social pressure against them.
It's easy to feel threatened and the best way to feel protected is, well, surrounding yourself with what's familiar. This leads to insular communities. That, in turn, makes it possible to live their entire life without needing to adapt further to the country.
Oh, I think you absolutely can, and I'm honestly all for it. Origination is an important part is knowing our own stories.
My point is that it appears that it's disproportionately one-sided in many Asian communities, though significantly less common each following generation. But I think that's more idiosyncratic and related to typical cultural norms regarding tradition and heritage than just regular ol' communality.
I think that might be linked to several factors, such as race (I'm not saying Asians are racially prone to that, I mean it's easier to see Asians and consider them foreign), a language that's based on completely different alphabets and bases, the reasons they immigrated and the social pressure against them.
It's easy to feel threatened and the best way to feel protected is, well, surrounding yourself with what's familiar. This leads to insular communities. That, in turn, makes it possible to live their entire life without needing to adapt further to the country.
Then again, I'm not an expert on that, at all.
No, that sounds about right.
I see a similar phenomenon here in Texas with a lot the areas with high populations of illegal immigrants from south of the border. Fear of being deported draws the community within and insular, and then subsequent generations show far less assimilation that their comprable peers despite not being bound by the same reasons their communities remain so restricted. Many times the kids in these groups can't even speak English, despite being born and raised in the US their entire lives.
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TrippyJingMoses supposes his toeses are roses.But Moses supposes erroneously.Registered Userregular
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
"I have friends that are..." is probably not the best indicator of how well you know a group of people.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
"I have friends that are..." is probably not the best indicator of how well you know a group of people.
And stereotypes exist for a reason. What's your point?
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
Though, are you aware what reason that is?
i'd bet it's not what you think.
Hint: Marginalization and "other-ing" are easier with stereotypes in action.
Hint: Marginalization and "other-ing" are easier with stereotypes in action.
I'm not disputing that. I just think it's a little early for some people to be threadshitting* with appeals against generalizations.
I mean, this thread is about the generalization that Japan is horribly misogynistic in their media, n'est ce pas? Just because this doesn't apply to each and every person in Japan doesn't negate the phenomenon or preclude us from talking about it.
For example, I absolutely hate the way It's a Wonderful Life portrays suicide. I think the message of the movie is fundamentally unhealthy and deeply misandrist. But it's still a pleasure to watch. It's well-executed, and Jimmy Stewart is at his most charismatic.
It's funny, I watched Robotech a few years ago and wasn't really troubled by the sexism. I always felt Lisa was actually sort of a realistic character. Maybe the only women I know are shrews. :P
But I can't abide that scene in It's a Wonderful Life when he runs into future Mary and screams out "She's a spinster!" Ruins the whole movie for me.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
For example, I absolutely hate the way It's a Wonderful Life portrays suicide. I think the message of the movie is fundamentally unhealthy and deeply misandrist. But it's still a pleasure to watch. It's well-executed, and Jimmy Stewart is at his most charismatic.
It's funny, I watched Robotech a few years ago and wasn't really troubled by the sexism. I always felt Lisa was actually sort of a realistic character. Maybe the only women I know are shrews. :P
But I can't abide that scene in It's a Wonderful Life when he runs into future Mary and screams out "She's a spinster!" Ruins the whole movie for me.
Yeah, how anyone other than George Bailey could find Donna Reed attractive is beyond me.
Oh wait. Donna Reed was ridiculously hot.
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TrippyJingMoses supposes his toeses are roses.But Moses supposes erroneously.Registered Userregular
edited April 2011
Well, you kind of zoned in on the Chinese bit there. And then you started listing stereotypes...some of which I've never heard of.
And then there's, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
As for Robotech and sexism, I guess it depends on the person. It's like anything else - e.g. I can't enjoy 24 because of the underlying politics, but I can enjoy Lord of the Rings despite the lack of female characters. Probably because I'm a guy, sadly.
The only thing I would say about Robotech is that in Japan, the 80s was a long time ago. Japan is still very sexist but it's a world away from the 80s. There have been some unfortunate retrograde steps (I'm thinking particularly of the women-only carriages on the subway), but at least now my (Japanese) wife can describe herself as a feminist and people know what she means and can think of famous feminist women for reference, rather than in the 80s, when they would have literally needed a dictionary.
I think the decades around the millenium have been a period of massive social change in Japan akin to the 60s in the West, and the gulf in outlook between young people and old people here is akin to the gap between my mother (an ex-hippy) and her mother (someone who's never been abroad and has never even eaten pizza).
Unfortunately with the way Japanese society ascribes power to the elderly, some of these changes are hidden - there are many older people who have no idea of how younger people really think. Older Japanese people will happily tell you what Japanese culture is, while their children get on with quietly living in an entirely different manner.
So I have high hopes for the future, as those younger people takes positions of authority within Japan we may see some real change.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
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I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.
But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?
For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.
Akane, for her part seems to lack all of the classic feminine traits and doesn't take shit from most people.
IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.
So no, not exactly all that better.
Is the Sargent telling the rogue cop not to go in and shoot all the kidnappers/mob bosses/etc ever right (with the obvious exception of films deliberately subverting the trope)?
That said she's right plenty of times. Especially once Rick gets promoted to lead his own squad, he gets a much better appreciation for the burden of command and the reason's why you don't just rush half-cocked into things and get people killed.
My more general point is that Robotech is a strange series to use as the basis for this discussion considering it is downright progressive by the standards of the time and genre.
Death Note would be a much better example.
Sure, not all objectifications are equal. But to be honest, if I just took your post out of context, it would actually seem pretty misogynistic. The girls' activities take no skill, of course! :P I doubt I'd be up to par for the taxing physical/mental requirements that pro cheerleading takes. And you have to admit at least some of the objectification of cheerleaders has to do with flexibility, right? *wink nudge*
But I'm not trying to play the oppression olympics here, all I'm saying is that football has a lot of 'ism going on.
Robotech was the genesis for this discussion because it was what I was watching at the time. If it is some kind of progressive benchmark for anime (a medium that I have limited experience with) then that is rather troubling.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Maybe you could help me out then.
Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
- questionable hygeine habits
- weird (possibly dangerous) food
- spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
- inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
- misogyny
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities
I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.
Right around there, yeah, I can't remember it was a while back. I understand what you mean about the 80s in general, it's why I am very careful about my Nostalgia, some shows are best never re-watched when you're old enough to know what's really going on. I was using it mostly as an example of when I try to draw my own lines. To me at that point she felt like she was just a cardboard caricature and that combined with how the other characterizations were made me feel completely unable to immerse myself in the show at all. If I can't get into it, I just don't bother finishing it.
Fushigi Yuugi I was able to mostly make myself watch all the way through, and it can be pretty bad at times too. Maccross so far though just had not given me one thing to consider redeeming in all of about the first eight episodes or so I saw on Hulu though.
The interesting thing here about Ranma, as you say this, is that the author is a woman.
I also don't actually consider Ranma as really being a harem anime. It's more of a multiple love triangle anime as several of the major male characters were pursuing the girls too, and I believe it was pretty popular with girls too. Hell some of the guys were pursuing female Ranma.
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Family bonds and large extended family, adherence to traditions like chinese new year or traditional foods, loss of familial knowledge like language or skills.
One of the hardest things for one of my friends his is loss of proficiency in Chinese after he moved away from home because his parents, while heavily accented yet fluent enough in english, mostly communicated in chinese with him his entire life and it's put an impediment in communication with them. He views it as a really integral part of who he is because it's how he communicates with people he cares about, but he is the last of his family that will resemble himself.
I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.
Well that's what makes it interesting to me; because of the multiple love triangles and Ranma's gender switching, it really highlights how much the other characters are constrained by how they act towards people based on gender.
You could throw in being part of the next world superpower after the inevitable decline of the USA. India will probably be next after China starts to decline, but it would probably be near the end of his lifetime anyway.
Also, as a non-American, we could also talk about all the awful qualities of American identity he's taking on instead:
- questionable hygeine habits (antibiotic overuse = lol superbugs)
- weird (and actually dangerous) food - seriously, the Standard American Diet is awful, and every civ that adopted a Western diet has seen their disease rates (diabetes, cancer, heart problems, etc.) go up. The overuse of corn, GMO, and processed food is also questionable.
- the continuing fragmentation and loss of community support causing a decline in psychological health
- declining standard of living as it grows increasingly reliant on importing from other countries
- homophobia and other bigotry born from religion
- interpersonal skills incompatable with Eastern sensibilities
- an unhealthy obsession with guns and violence
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It can be said to be circular, yes. The usual justification for sticking with old ways is that they've evolved over thousands of years and have worked so far. And change is risk.
All nations struggle with this in many ways, but Asia has some very peculiar instances. Japan in particular has that profound tension between old and new. I won't venture into the psychological ramifications of losing the war and being subject to nuclear bombings. But following the war, they were essentially decimated and rebuilt in the darkest part of America's shadow. This is an Empire that was destroyed and rebuilt as a Liberal Democracy; where America revolted, Japan was reformed from the outside in.
When change happens that fast, and that radically, there is a backlash. As the nation moved into the market economy and into democracy, there emerged a deep psychological need to find ways to reaffirm their identity as Japanese. So they still harbor conservative feelings. They hang onto whatever notions of tradition they have left. Gender roles are, unfortunately, part of that package.
This is the same process, psychologically, that many religious people face. It makes it hard to pry loose because it's considered an element of identity. This is what liberals often lose sight of when we label groups as "backwards." This is a gross oversimplification.
That all said, sexism and bigotry are on the way out in industrialized democracies, and probably also China. It will be a very, very slow process; and I think the gulf between the West and Asia is going to widen before it narrows. But Asian identity will evolve to get rid of these notions, just as religious identities will. When you really think about it, they're not essential to any culture; and maybe more importantly, they're not acceptable in what is an increasingly liberal world.
Does anyone here have any thoughts on Ghost in the Shell in particular? I'm working my way through the series, and halfway into 2nd gig I'm finding its writing is largely mature and thoughtful. It seems to successfully avoid sexist tropes, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough. I'm mostly disarmed by how literate and sophisticated it can be.
I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."
It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
I'm sure an entire essay on sexuality and Motoko Kusanagi could be written, and in fact I think one forumer in a previous thread said that they'd written one.
It's certainly not perfect, but it does touch upon the objectification of women (given the nature of the setting, frequently quite literally). I'm fairly sensitive to that sorta thing, and it doesn't really bug me outside the Majors average outfit, and sight lack of representation among all the central protagonists. And the second season at least attempts to explore Japans racist attitudes towards immigrants.
I don't really know how much alienation other ethnic groups feel from both sides but I think a lot of it can be attributed to the originating society and the amount of cultural push has taken place inside the society or culture that one is trying to integrate into. In the case of East Asian immigrants and 1st and 2nd gens look at how insular and conservative the cultural they originate from is and how little asian immigration and population growth has taken place relative to other groups.
And in the case of a lot of southeast asian groups, they didn't come to america because they had grand ideas about being american, rather it was because they were refugees from a relatively recent war.
This feeling of being stuck in the middle isn't unique to Asians though. Mixed race individuals face it all the time especially half black and half white people where they're too black for white people and too white for black people. It's just a question of where this alienation arises from.
Protip: Asians remember what the Europeans (and Americans) did to them during the past several hundred years of colonialism.
I also like you just lumped Mexicans with all those other groups. Just look at how many anti-immigration laws are basically targeted at them.
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It was a neat show, with interesting characters, and then suddenly GOD and FATE and ridiculous shit happens.
I find myself unreasonably bothered by that sort of thing when it's sprung on me like a trap.
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If you realize that something is being insensitive to race, gender, etc there should be little danger of it negatively affecting your perception of the same.
It's also true though that as a conscientious consumer you should perhaps not financially support something that is socially harmful. But this would seem to apply more to current series rather than something that is decades old. Whatever damage it may have done happened a long time ago.
Finally, I would like to posit that most of the time anything that is really offensive is also just going to be crap all around.
Again, compare it to Star Trek, where the executives actively decided that the woman shouldn't get to captain the ship even though random guys way lower in rank had done it.
By comparison, Lisa is the commander of the entire flight group, like the second most senior officer amongst the named characters, and gets her own command at the end of the series.
On the other hand, she is a nagging shrew, which is a negative female stereotype. But given that her character is well rounded in all other respects I would think of this more as a character flaw than something that is misogynistic. She needs to learn to be less of a control freak just like Rick needs to learn to be more responsible and less of a jackass. It's character development.
This is even more true I think because there are again other female characters who do not fit this stereotype, like Claudia. Who is doubly amazing for being black and not a horrible racist stereotype, which is quite the accomplishment for anime. Claudia is far more mature than Lisa. But she's not the main character for the same reason Roy isn't, mature characters without obvious flaws are harder to write interestingly.
That's so ignorant and racist I think I'm going to sig it.
roll eyes[/gif]
I don't see why you can't have two cultures, to be quite honest. I'm probably wrong in the opposite way, but can't you simultaneously be proud of being Persian and American? I'm simultaneously proud to be Quebecois and Canadian, but that might not be the same thing since I'm not an immigrant.
But, uhm, can't you have both identities within yourself? i hardly believe one culture can be considered superior to all others. We're all flawed, after all, aren't we?
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Oh, I think you absolutely can, and I'm honestly all for it. Origination is an important part is knowing our own stories.
My point is that it appears that it's disproportionately one-sided in many Asian communities, though significantly less common each following generation. But I think that's more idiosyncratic and related to typical cultural norms regarding tradition and heritage than just regular ol' communality.
I think that might be linked to several factors, such as race (I'm not saying Asians are racially prone to that, I mean it's easier to see Asians and consider them foreign), a language that's based on completely different alphabets and bases, the reasons they immigrated and the social pressure against them.
It's easy to feel threatened and the best way to feel protected is, well, surrounding yourself with what's familiar. This leads to insular communities. That, in turn, makes it possible to live their entire life without needing to adapt further to the country.
Then again, I'm not an expert on that, at all.
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No, that sounds about right.
I see a similar phenomenon here in Texas with a lot the areas with high populations of illegal immigrants from south of the border. Fear of being deported draws the community within and insular, and then subsequent generations show far less assimilation that their comprable peers despite not being bound by the same reasons their communities remain so restricted. Many times the kids in these groups can't even speak English, despite being born and raised in the US their entire lives.
"I have friends that are..." is probably not the best indicator of how well you know a group of people.
And stereotypes exist for a reason. What's your point?
i'd bet it's not what you think.
Hint: Marginalization and "other-ing" are easier with stereotypes in action.
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I'm not disputing that. I just think it's a little early for some people to be threadshitting* with appeals against generalizations.
I mean, this thread is about the generalization that Japan is horribly misogynistic in their media, n'est ce pas? Just because this doesn't apply to each and every person in Japan doesn't negate the phenomenon or preclude us from talking about it.
*not directed at you, 21C
It's funny, I watched Robotech a few years ago and wasn't really troubled by the sexism. I always felt Lisa was actually sort of a realistic character. Maybe the only women I know are shrews. :P
But I can't abide that scene in It's a Wonderful Life when he runs into future Mary and screams out "She's a spinster!" Ruins the whole movie for me.
Yeah, how anyone other than George Bailey could find Donna Reed attractive is beyond me.
Oh wait. Donna Reed was ridiculously hot.
And then there's, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."
I was born in Manhattan.
The only thing I would say about Robotech is that in Japan, the 80s was a long time ago. Japan is still very sexist but it's a world away from the 80s. There have been some unfortunate retrograde steps (I'm thinking particularly of the women-only carriages on the subway), but at least now my (Japanese) wife can describe herself as a feminist and people know what she means and can think of famous feminist women for reference, rather than in the 80s, when they would have literally needed a dictionary.
I think the decades around the millenium have been a period of massive social change in Japan akin to the 60s in the West, and the gulf in outlook between young people and old people here is akin to the gap between my mother (an ex-hippy) and her mother (someone who's never been abroad and has never even eaten pizza).
Unfortunately with the way Japanese society ascribes power to the elderly, some of these changes are hidden - there are many older people who have no idea of how younger people really think. Older Japanese people will happily tell you what Japanese culture is, while their children get on with quietly living in an entirely different manner.
So I have high hopes for the future, as those younger people takes positions of authority within Japan we may see some real change.
Seriously
I mean "weird food" and "bad hygiene?"
I don't even.
I enjoyed his 'rolleyes' when I called him a racist.
I just want to spread the word a little so people don't waste their time talking to him about... the entire world outside where he lives?