Webcomic in Progress

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  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Enc, OMG Protecting Sensitive Data. That's not CG at all, that is just from TNG. I used it again for Qpotato. And the desk is from a video I worked on a few years ago. Spamusement is not SUPPOSED to be good art. It's just meant to be funny. I submitted over 200 of them, most of them drawn horrendously.

    Thanks Iruka.. I'll try to be less dense.

    slydon on
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    I didn't link those because your backgrounds are rendered or not rendered or whatever, I'm saying the art drawn there is more consistent with the lines I'm seeing on your details than with the lines on your naked models. Certainly those are roughs, but the point is they don't appear to be traced over.

    Not sure why that is sensitive, given the fact it's linked on your website (which is linked on your signature) but if you would like me to pull them from the forum let me know and I will gladly do so.

    Enc on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Would roughs be better? Esp if tracing over them is what's making them suck.

    Those are old comics I drew, not my social security number :) It's cool

    slydon on
  • acadiaacadia Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    DO YOU USE A TABLET? IF SO, WHAT KIND OF TABLET IS IT?

    acadia on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Yes acadia. An old wacom cte-640.

    slydon on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    7px round lines with shape dynamics turned on. oh boy

    #115 - De L'audace
    115.png
    ...................................................................................^ this also be a link

    slydon on
  • acadiaacadia Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    That uh, despite the subject matter, really does look loads better.

    acadia on
  • FletcherFletcher Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Yeah, that seriously does look a hell of a lot less stiff than some of the other comics!

    I'd also like to throw in that making snarky comics and comments on your site about the people who are trying to help you out (as well as their entirely valid criticisms) is not the best way to improve OR to make people want to help you.

    Subject-wise, I would recommend against making comics that are about "god, my art is so shit" or similar fourth-wall-breaking subjects, as they seriously do tend to make people go "well if it is shit, then why am i bothering to read it" and stop visiting your site.

    I think (as a comic dude also) that you may be worrying about the fact that not every line looks exactly like you think it should in your head. But that is something that will become a LOT easier over time, as you practice and become generally more confident that a line is going to turn out how you want it to.

    I still suspect in the back of my mind that you are drawing over the top of 3d models. The previous strips I've looked at have basically looked like direct traces of posed figures.

    But even though the latest strip still has suspiciously perfect construction (anatomy and perspective wise) compared to anything I've seen you draw that isn't a person, the varying line width certainly goes a long way toward alleviating the "airline instructions" feel that other people have been bringing up a lot.

    Seriously, no matter how it is that you are making these strips, I would recommend that you continue to do it using a thicker brush with shape dynamics turned on. It makes the whole thing feel like a DRAWING, which (in my opinion of course) your strip has been lacking in so far.

    Fletcher on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Really? You guys think this looks better? To me, it looks so... sketchy. :( The lines are shaky and uneven. It looks unfinished. The perspective in the first panel is kind of wonky to me. She's supposed to be further away and slightly taller, not teetering, and her mouth is wrong. Panel 2 Sydney looks like Adrian Brody. On the plus side, it was much much faster to do, and the hair looks slightly more voluminous.

    slydon on
  • JLM-AWPJLM-AWP Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    slydon wrote: »
    Really? You guys think this looks better? To me, it looks so... sketchy. :( The lines are shaky and uneven. It looks unfinished. The perspective in the first panel is kind of wonky to me. She's supposed to be further away and slightly taller, not teetering, and her mouth is wrong. Panel 2 Sydney looks like Adrian Brody. On the plus side, it was much much faster to do, and the hair looks slightly more voluminous.

    I'm not sure where you got the idea that artificial perfection was better than good ol' genuine drawing, but that seems a bit goofy. It's the imperfection and human aspect you are adding to the drawing that makes it seem more real and less stiff. I think a lot of people here assumed you would agree with this once you saw it, but apparently that's not the case.

    They are very right, though, it looks a lot better man. I wouldn't be so negative towards getting pushed (in this case SHOVED) in the right direction. It's already gotten you to improve a ton. Keep heeding advice and you'll begin to understand why what you have been doing is nowhere near the best way to draw your comic.

    Despite the snarkiness earlier, I'm only going to lend encouragement and say to keep it up.

    JLM-AWP on
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2011
    Well yeah, the line quality is poor. But the drawings as a whole are far less stiff.

    I have a question, actually. Can you point to some artists you admire, or want to emulate? I'm not getting a clear idea of where you want your art to go, or if you want it to go anywhere at all. Making minute changes in response to our criticism signals that you're not interested in really altering or developing your artwork much from where it stands now. But if you do want to improve, can you tell me what bothers you about the current look? What would you like to change? What would you like to learn to do? What do you want your art to, ultimately, look like?

    tynic on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Yeah, this looks great. Not because it's clean, but because it's fluid. Being more free with your strokes translates into your characters and makes them appear a lot less wooden.

    Willeth on
    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Really? You guys think this looks better? To me, it looks so... sketchy. The lines are shaky and uneven. It looks unfinished. The perspective in the first panel is kind of wonky to me. She's supposed to be further away and slightly taller, not teetering, and her mouth is wrong. Panel 2 Sydney looks like Adrian Brody. On the plus side, it was much much faster to do, and the hair looks slightly more voluminous.

    It looks like you actually did the work here, yes. It also shows where your weaknesses are when it comes to the human figure. Your characters, despite being much less polished an anatomically correct, look like they were hand drawn rather than sketched and have a more fluid feel than the rigid poser outlines you had before.

    Now you have to figure out how to get to the level of skill that allows you to do the quality of body structure you had before without relying upon software as a crutch. That takes practice. A lot of practice. But it's a step in the right direction.

    Enc on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Well, it's cut production time by at least half AND you seem to like it better.
    It just feels like I've served you all undercooked pork or something, and you're all telling me how much better it tastes this way, while I gape in horror at the thought of serving steam table trichinosis.

    slydon on
  • bwaniebwanie Posting into the void Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    keep telling us how you're only subduing yourself to appease us.

    bwanie on
    Yh6tI4T.jpg
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    slydon wrote: »
    Well, it's cut production time by at least half AND you seem to like it better.
    It just feels like I've served you all undercooked pork or something, and you're all telling me how much better it tastes this way, while I gape in horror at the thought of serving steam table trichinosis.

    To use your analogy, you are serving us undercooked pork. But, compared to the plastic, inedible, pork-shaped model you were serving before, it is a step forward. You are no where near the level of quality you will need as a comic artist to get and keep traffic on your site, and you have a huge way to go to get there, in drawing and writing. What you have above is not professional grade at all.

    But now you are doing the work to get there, as opposed to before where you were taking shortcuts to making good art (which, like with most shortcuts, can be instantly identified as such). The fact this comic took you half the time of the tracing system you used before should be a testament that you did not spend enough time on it, which is likely why your work does not look as nice as it could. This is why most folk here will tell you not to make a comic if you are trying to learn to draw, as it is rarely a good medium to improve your skills.

    Also: you really need to stop talking down to the community. If you want a circle-jerk about how great you are, go over to comic-genesis. You won't get that here.

    Enc on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 2011
    Enc wrote: »
    Also: you really need to stop talking down to the community. If you want a circle-jerk about how great you are, go over to comic-genesis. You won't get that here.

    This. Listen dude, theres a lot of good help and good eyes in this community. If you put a little faith in their words, you will begin to improve. To do this, though, you really need to take a step back. If you are putting in the time to change, people will put in their time to give you pretty thorough critiques. Its not an easy thing to find a community that will embrace artists of different skill levels and put in the time to say words to them all. If this isn't benefiting you, find a place that will give you ass pats, and free up these resources for people who want to improve.

    Getting better at art is just as much about changing your perception of things (Your ability to see) as it is about the mechanical details of teaching your hand to draw the line in your head. This is why artists tend to collect art books or these days have tumblrs and folders that are a huge jumble of artists they like and inspiration. When you want to learn to paint, you study the master painters. You want to learn to comic? I suggest studying the master inkers. Studying means WORKING. Copy things you like, try and reinterpret them, don't trace anything ever. Challenge yourself daily. There is a wide world of ways to approach style and grow artistically, and you shouldn't be content to travel at a snails pace on the narrowest of roads because you like the feeling of false perfection.

    Trust me, it'll benefit your work to man up and get your hands dirty. If it makes us crazy raw pork eaters to tell you so, you are way more set in your ways then you think.

    Iruka on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    #116 - His Facebook Status with Rei is “It's Complicated”
    116.png
    ...................................................................................^ this also be a link

    slydon on
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    Quick and dirty with my work mouse, but here are some ideas for improvement:

    slydonagain.jpg

    Enc on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited March 2011
    I have no idea what this is about. I'm assuming that the show is seeping into the dream, but I don't know what the show is due to not being familiar with the culture, and I'm not sure is necessary for the joke other than a grab at appealing to a particular clique.

    Good attempt at musclature and thinking about the face as a shape in panel three. In panels four and five, though, there's a lack of this - it looks like features placed on a mask, not a face and skull made up of muscles and distinct bone. Don't be afraid to add lines to a face - she looks like an android right now, and even the most Botoxed of people have a filtrum, creases next to their nose, sunken eyes, etc. There's a lot to be said for omitting lines to create an impression of something, sure, but different angles throw different edges into light and right now, her nose looks like a shapeless mass because of this.

    The nose on the guy, in contrast, look great, because there's definition to it and shade is applied well - it's so different that it's obvious that you have copied this image. Let's be very clear about what we've gone over before - look at images and break them down, learn from what makes them work and apply it to your own images. But simply copying something verbatim like this is not learning and will not help your artwork or comic in the long run. If you want to write but have your artwork done quickly with shortcuts, you might as well be making a sprite comic.

    Willeth on
    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Thanks Enc! You're absolutely right. Actually, the eyes were a 3am oversight. I realized when I woke up this morning I hadn't shaded them in in that panel. As for the mouth, I tried to follow the lines of mouth open/ extend the jaw. but the mouth is too small. I thought I did better in the last panel, when her :'( pulled her nose downward a little.

    poor Grandpa McDentures.. I know he has no teeth.. but why does he have no lips? :lol:

    slydon on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited March 2011
    Hi Willeth,
    Yeah, panel 4 was a mess... syd's eating her own tongue or something :/
    I did use said Gendo pic as a reference, and tried to make him look a bit less serious, esp around the eyebrows and mouth. My reference for syd is my own, and I'm no Yoshiyuki Sadamoto.

    slydon on
  • SarksusSarksus Paul Atreides holding a pugRegistered User regular
    edited March 2011
    I have to echo the question about where you want your art to go. What is your goal with your art, specifically? You seem more concerned with your tools (tablet, Photoshop) and what you can do with them (filters and other effects) than with ability and technique.

    Right now it's hard to see where you are as an artist because there's so much getting in the way of what you're drawing. You can receive advice that can patch your drawings up so they improve incrementally but I think they will still be flawed fundamentally.

    The most important piece of advice I saw in this thread was about construction and building up your drawings with shapes. You acknowledged this advice and said you were practicing it but this needs to be your largest concern right now if you want to greatly improve your art.

    By all means continue drawing your comic, especially if you find it fun but I think you need to spend a significant amount of time at least doing figure studies and construction from shapes. If you do this then your comics can look like Angel of Bacon's examples. If that's something you're interested in then use that as motivation to work through the grind.

    It would benefit you a lot, and help us see what you need help with, if you worked on these fundamentals and posted the results.

    Sarksus on
  • FletcherFletcher Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    slydon wrote: »
    I did use said Gendo pic as a reference, and tried to make him look a bit less serious, esp around the eyebrows and mouth.

    I think you need to be more clear on the difference between "using as a reference" and "tracing"

    The image you have used is an almost exact tracing of the gendo image that willeth linked to, which is not what "using as a reference" means.

    Using an image as a reference involves using it as a guideline for your own image, and trying to add elements of it into your own (seperately drawn) image so that it resembles the reference more clearly. It does not mean copying the image directly, then changing a few details so it isn't as obvious that you traced it.

    It is becoming more obvious to me that you're tracing over poser models or something similar, while trying to trick people into thinking you aren't. Your characters retain almost the exact same proportions throughout every strip (yes there are minor flaws, but I think they are flaws in your tracing rather than in the model itself), and are completely at odds with your level of skill in other areas (linework, color, facial expressions etc.).

    Also, your construction of anything other than a human figure is severely less assured (e.g. "artist in beret" strip, chair in the most recent strip), which again leads me to believe that the human figures are traced.

    I'm sure a bunch of other people have noticed it too, but if you won't even acknowledge it and admit it, then I don't see what the point is in trying to help you.

    The phrase "polishing a turd" is a little crude, but I believe it applies here. From what I've seen throughout this thread, you are only interested in quick fixes that help to throw a fresh coat of paint over your strip, instead of actually putting in the effort get better at the basics.

    You won't get better at drawing in the long run unless you actually learn to draw from scratch, instead of relying on crutches while pretending not to.

    Fletcher on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited April 2011
    Had the picture open in firefox while trying to do it in photoshop
    My Gendo face is far too fat. Maybe I should have tried to do something completely new with Gendo, but all I was trying to do was make it recognizable. :(
    gendont.jpg
    GENDON'T..........................GENDO

    My lines are less assured than they used to be because shift-clicking from one spot to the next made for super clean lines but looked flat. I tried something new as a result of the earlier crit. It's new, and feels weird to me, but hopefully will get better. I can tell the difference in just a week.

    My avatar is the same since childhood when a friend draw a bunch of us together, with me having a simplified version of Egon's hair from the ghostbusters cartoon. I found it pee-funny and have kept it ever since.
    page85.jpg

    Does anyone know a good screencap program, because I want to put my crappy process out there
    (and also force me to spend less time on facebook.. youtube...mexican porn...etc etc...)

    Also, if I have some time off next week, I'll put together some pics of paper AoB drawings of the characters. My cell takes less than spectacular photos, but its better than nothing. Also, they're in ordinary pen, which I know is a cardinal sin and I'm sorry, but I use them because I'm lefty and they don't smudge as much.

    See you all next week!

    slydon on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited April 2011
    some quick AoB and stick figure assembly fails
    aob1.png

    slydon on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    You can screencap video with VLC, but it might chug your computer to all hell.

    Willeth on
    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    tynic wrote: »
    I have a question, actually. Can you point to some artists you admire, or want to emulate? I'm not getting a clear idea of where you want your art to go, or if you want it to go anywhere at all.

    ... what bothers you about the current look? What would you like to change? What would you like to learn to do? What do you want your art to, ultimately, look like?
    Sarksus wrote: »
    I have to echo the question about where you want your art to go. What is your goal with your art, specifically?

    tynic on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited April 2011
    I don't know.
    I used to draw this comic because it was fun.

    slydon on
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    ok, but then - what do you want from us? This forum is here to help people develop their art. The assumption is that anyone posting work on the forum wants to improve. If you're just doing a comic as a hobby then it's ok to put your drawings here, don't get me wrong, but you won't get much feedback once people realise you're not interested in what we have to say, and since it's really not a site-whoring forum I can guarantee you won't get much exposure. So ... why are you here? It might be worth having a think about that.

    Basically you've got fundamental problems with drafting, construction, linework, colour ... and to get rid of those you're really going to have to tear down a lot of bad habits and start doing some serious work, which is what people here have been trying to get you to do. If you don't want to do that stuff, then nobody is going to make you, but it means everyone posting in this thread has been wasting their time.

    tynic on
  • slydonslydon Registered User
    edited April 2011
    I would love to be able to quit everything and work on the comic and art 40 hours a week, but it's impossible.

    When I first posted on here I thought I had something different than the "making fun of videogames and pop culture every week", and simply wanted some feedback on what I thought was a unique but completely approachable idea.

    And that's why I was here.

    I never asked for nor expected ass-pats, but I was simply overwhelmed with the level of fucking vitriol to the point where the comic I had loved doing for 2 years stopped being an enjoyable lark. Site-whoring, it was more like, "wow... 100 of these.. they need a HOME!". Only a few months later has me thinking as well as you "Has it all been a waste of time?" Possibly. I've been making light of it recently, but honestly, this comic is as close to an end as it's ever been right now. For all those who actually posted constructive crit, I sincerely thank you and will put it into any possible future developments.

    Also this "The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later." has been getting really bad lately.
    Perhaps it's for the best that I put this sick dog down and conserve bandwidth.

    </closed>

    slydon on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    There is nothing in this thread that could remotely be described as vitriol. There is criticism, which is what the AC is for, and there is anger at you dismissing helpful criticism validated by multiple people. None of it is unfounded.

    Every post here is made with the intent of helping you become a better artist. Nobody is implying that you're a bad artist necessarily, but that the techniques you're using aren't conducive to improvement. The nature of this forum is that it's where people post looking for feedback, not for praise. Even the most amazing, established artists on the forum will consistently get critique from other people and discussion will be had about their work and its merits.

    If you are unable to take advice, criticism, and experiment with your work, it'll never be as good as it could be. For what it's worth, no great artist I've known has ever been satisfied with any single piece he's done.

    Willeth on
    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • SarksusSarksus Paul Atreides holding a pugRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Listen. The Artist's Corner can't help you with your idea. We can help you with how the idea is executed but in exchange for our help you need to be willing to put in effort too. If you're happy with how the comic is right now and only want some minor bandaids to polish it up then we can't help you because that's not what this forum is for. If you want to progress as an artist and put some serious work in then we can help you. That's the point of this place, to help each other do the hard work that we might not be able to do otherwise.

    So you have to make a choice. If you just want to do the comic for fun and you're happy with your drawing ability then there's nothing more we can do. But if you want to improve significantly as an artist and draw a comic that is the best it can be then you have to take our advice when we tell you to focus on the fundamentals.

    I want to draw a comic, too, but I want it to be the best it can be and I'm not there yet, so I'm reading books and doing drawing exercises and figure studies and I'm learning anatomy and lighting. It's probably going to take me a long time to get to the point where I'm satisfied with my ability. If you don't want to take that path that's okay, for a really long time I just drew for fun, but if you don't want to take that path then we're limited in how we can help you.

    We've been harsh these last couple pages because it's becoming impossible to ignore the fact that you need to make this choice about where you want your comic and your artistic abilities to go. We're trying to figure out what you want from us and from yourself because we're beginning to wonder if we're giving you the right advice, I think.

    I'm sorry that it got like this but a lot of time has been put into improving your "lark". Again, we can't help you very much if that's all you think your comic is.

    Sarksus on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2011
    And you can do this as a hobby but still improve. People who just want to play guitar for fun still take lessons. If they didn't everyone in the general area will probably yell at them to either stop molesting that guitar, or stop playing that same damn song. There are quite a few dudes in here who make comics and don't make a living off of it, but still find it in their hearts to take in some good, strait up critique.

    Iruka on
  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Sarksus wrote: »
    If you're happy with how the comic is right now and only want some minor bandaids to polish it up then we can't help you because that's not what this forum is for.

    I guess I also want to point out that even though it's not the AC's MO, this is still okay. If you don't want to alter the comic and continue with what you're doing, go ahead! It would be a real shame for you to stop doing something you enjoy doing for yourself and your friends because we had a disagreement on where it should go.

    Willeth on
    @vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!
    @gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2011
    Willeth wrote: »
    Sarksus wrote: »
    If you're happy with how the comic is right now and only want some minor bandaids to polish it up then we can't help you because that's not what this forum is for.

    I guess I also want to point out that even though it's not the AC's MO, this is still okay. If you don't want to alter the comic and continue with what you're doing, go ahead! It would be a real shame for you to stop doing something you enjoy doing for yourself and your friends because we had a disagreement on where it should go.

    This is also true, and there are some other communities you can post in, like DA, If you just want to share and not really deal with critique.

    Iruka on
  • SarksusSarksus Paul Atreides holding a pugRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Yeah it's not really my place to unilaterally decide what this forum is for, I'll rephrase and say that its strength lies in helping you put the hard work in although you can also find more casual advice at times.

    Anyway, I'll repeat myself by saying that it really is okay if you want to do this comic purely for the fun of it but you will find we're more limited in what kind of advice we can give you. It's better to draw period rather than have it become a discouraging job but we're also happy when we see someone improve.

    Sarksus on
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I had a long-ish reply about the nature of the internet leading to misunderstandings of tone and intent, but the server was apparently too busy. Alas.

    Suffice to say, we were all trying our best to assist you in our own unique, and sometimes clumsy, fashions. I would urge you not to give up making your comic, but hearken back to why made it fun in the first place and go from there. If you want assistance in the future, feel free to pm me. I'll gladly help as I can.

    Enc on
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