Edit - I'm going to note here that I personally haven't seen anything in HD myself. I don't know how much of a big difference it makes. DVD, however, is a format I feel is perfectly fine. Maybe when I see HD that'll change. Who knows. I'm just Joe Schmoe.
My first experience with actual HD content was with NFL football. Hot damn.
Nowadays though, you should be able to walk into any Sears, Best Buy, Costco, etc. and check out all the HD content there. For some reason though, being bombarded at all sides with HD stuff isn't as neat as just being at someone's house (or your own) and watching some quality HDTV show/movie/sport in a living room. (Maybe it's just me?)
The problem with walking into places that offer displays is that they aren't configured properly. The contrast is fucked, too bright, and sometimes there's blurry-as-hell screens set up. Technically I've seen HDTV, but until I see a TV that's fucking configured properly, I won't know what it really can bring.
I'd actually appreciate seeing DVD on one screen and HD on another. It's the only way I can make a real comparison. I'm quirky like that.
Yeah, I've never seen a decent hd setup in a store ever. everything that claimed to be hd was all grainy and crappy looking. I did see a blu-ray of casino royale playing at future shop, and that was pretty impressive.
Well I would hope they stop PS3 production. When they start it up later, the cost to produce them will have dropped and a price drop to the consumers will happen then. Or should happen. It's my understanding that the PS3's are selling at a pretty sizeable loss.
About a $200 loss per 60GB unit.
Problem is, the time that takes to burn off the huge unsold inventory would likely delay the price drop. Even if the production costs, currently at an estimated $800, drop by $200 next month, allowing the company to sell them for $500 (for example), dropping the price on the inventory manufactured at $800 a pop will cause them to lose $300, not $200 or the $100 lost if they were manufactured fresh.
And Sony's gaming division is gushing cash already.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Well I would hope they stop PS3 production. When they start it up later, the cost to produce them will have dropped and a price drop to the consumers will happen then. Or should happen. It's my understanding that the PS3's are selling at a pretty sizeable loss.
The problem here is that the only thing that reduces the cost of the tech they are using is by making units and bolstering the economys of the various companies they buy parts from.
There's a big danger in telling a parts company you're going to slow down your ordering...
I work for Agilent we're actually in that business
Wait, what exactly is the danger? I don't understand. Are you saying it's a Catch-22 situation I presented? The cost of making the units won't sell unless they, uh, continue to make them?
Edit - I appreciate the link and the warning for the large images (I currently live in the rural shit hole; dialup). I'll check it later.
Edit - I'm going to note here that I personally haven't seen anything in HD myself. I don't know how much of a big difference it makes. DVD, however, is a format I feel is perfectly fine. Maybe when I see HD that'll change. Who knows. I'm just Joe Schmoe.
My first experience with actual HD content was with NFL football. Hot damn.
Nowadays though, you should be able to walk into any Sears, Best Buy, Costco, etc. and check out all the HD content there. For some reason though, being bombarded at all sides with HD stuff isn't as neat as just being at someone's house (or your own) and watching some quality HDTV show/movie/sport in a living room. (Maybe it's just me?)
The problem with walking into places that offer displays is that they aren't configured properly. The contrast is fucked, too bright, and sometimes there's blurry-as-hell screens set up. Technically I've seen HDTV, but until I see a TV that's fucking configured properly, I won't know what it really can bring.
I'd actually appreciate seeing DVD on one screen and HD on another. It's the only way I can make a real comparison. I'm quirky like that.
The problem with that is that I don't watch movies less than three feet away. I would need to know what they look like at least ten feet or more away from me.
Well I would hope they stop PS3 production. When they start it up later, the cost to produce them will have dropped and a price drop to the consumers will happen then. Or should happen. It's my understanding that the PS3's are selling at a pretty sizeable loss.
But that's the catch-22 of this situation so far.
Lower manufacturing costs come from mass-manufacturing a product, so buying raw materials in massive bulk lowers the cost. Also, advances in manufacturing comes from noting the current form of manufacture, and streamlining it to raise the efficiency of the manufacturing process.
Stopping all production doesn't create either situation, so the cost of manufacturing doesn't really drop nearly as quickly as if they continued production.
If Blu-ray doesn't start taking off immediately, Sony will have to wait until the actual non-Blu-ray hardware drops, like the manufacture of the Cell processor, the ram, or any of the other components that are not Blu-ray related. Unfortunately, none of these parts are near the cost of the Blu-ray drive.
Most estimates say that the PS3 could have launched at a $400 price point if Blu-ray was not included, so you can see how important it is for the cost of Blu-ray production to be lowered.
Well I would hope they stop PS3 production. When they start it up later, the cost to produce them will have dropped and a price drop to the consumers will happen then. Or should happen. It's my understanding that the PS3's are selling at a pretty sizeable loss.
The problem here is that the only thing that reduces the cost of the tech they are using is by making units and bolstering the economys of the various companies they buy parts from.
There's a big danger in telling a parts company you're going to slow down your ordering...
I work for Agilent we're actually in that business
Wait, what exactly is the danger? I don't understand. Are you saying it's a Catch-22 situation I presented? The cost of making the units won't sell unless they, uh, continue to make them?
Edit - I appreciate the link and the warning for the large images (I currently live in the rural shit hole; dialup). I'll check it later.
Imagine you are a company that provides a critical component for the PS3. You've sat in meetings with Sony and listened to them talk about how successful the product is going to be and how much money you're going to make if you can invest a bit in production like a new assembly line.. maybe a specialized product... maybe a whole factory and infrastructure.
So you're making these PS3 parts and one day Sony comes to you and says that they're going to have to put it all on hold... or ramp back the purchases they are making... all of a sudden your financial expectations are thrown for a loop... investors start selling stock... dogs and cats start living together... mass hysteria.
You can be sure that over time... while the parts production line is just sitting there... or moving at a trickle... that the cost of the parts you are making is going to lower at a much slower rate than if Sony had been buying boat loads in the meantime.
To me... in my experience just looking at trends and data... and we deal in stuff like parts for medical equipment ... cell phones etc... when you see cost hikes is when ordering slows down.
classic supply/demand.... but not on a retail scale
Edit - I'm going to note here that I personally haven't seen anything in HD myself. I don't know how much of a big difference it makes. DVD, however, is a format I feel is perfectly fine. Maybe when I see HD that'll change. Who knows. I'm just Joe Schmoe.
My first experience with actual HD content was with NFL football. Hot damn.
Nowadays though, you should be able to walk into any Sears, Best Buy, Costco, etc. and check out all the HD content there. For some reason though, being bombarded at all sides with HD stuff isn't as neat as just being at someone's house (or your own) and watching some quality HDTV show/movie/sport in a living room. (Maybe it's just me?)
The problem with walking into places that offer displays is that they aren't configured properly. The contrast is fucked, too bright, and sometimes there's blurry-as-hell screens set up. Technically I've seen HDTV, but until I see a TV that's fucking configured properly, I won't know what it really can bring.
I'd actually appreciate seeing DVD on one screen and HD on another. It's the only way I can make a real comparison. I'm quirky like that.
The problem with that is that I don't watch movies less than three feet away. I would need to know what they look like at least ten feet or more away from me.
But your TV is also probably bigger than your computer screen, so it isn't that you see the difference because you sit close to your computer monitor. It's also the size of the screen you see it that determines whether you can tell the difference.
As for the production costs, just because PS3s aren't being manufactured doesn't mean that the parts aren't being used in in other products. The blu-ray diodes will still get cheaper because blu-ray players continue to be made. Cell processors could get cheaper if Sony suckers other companies to use them.
... and so on and so forth.
EDIT My point is production costs would still theoretically continue to fall.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2007
I take back what I said about them stopping production.
As for the production costs, just because PS3s aren't being manufactured doesn't mean that the parts aren't being used in in other products. The blu-ray diodes will still get cheaper because blu-ray players continue to be made. Cell processors could get cheaper if Sony suckers other companies to use them.
... and so on and so forth.
EDIT My point is production costs would still theoretically continue to fall.
But not even in the same realm as if the PS3s were continuing production.
How many people bought stand-alone Blu-ray players? 10,000? 20,000? Earlier in the thread, someone said that 1 million Blu-ray movies have been sold, even with the 3.5 million PS3s out there. I can't imagine that stand-alone players have sold enough to warrant mass manufacture on that type of scale.
So you go from manufacturing less than 100,000 Blu-ray players to manufacturing 5 million+ PS3s, then drop back down to the original number of stand-alone players.
I'm not seeing where the cost of production is lowered, especially now if there are expensive factories (and workers) outfitted to make Blu-ray drives sitting there, twiddling their thumbs.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2007
*notes the word "workers" used*
... Man, this wouldn't have any impact on people being employed, would it?
... Man, this wouldn't have any impact on people being employed, would it?
Well, let's just say if I was working in a Sony (or any of its Blu-ray affiliates) factory where Blu-ray diodes are made, drives are put together, or Blu-ray discs are stamped, I wouldn't be planning on buying a Ferrari anytime soon.
Unless Blu-ray takes off, Sony's whole "People will buy anything with the Playstation brand on it no matter what hyuk hyuk" strategy will come to bite not only Sony in the ass, but investors, game developers, publishers, movie studios, factory workers, manufacturers, retailers, customers, and your mom.
All for the sake of trying to force a victory in an unnecessary format war.
I wasn't saying that Blu-Ray production costs would drop as fast, or at all, but I did say they could theoretically still drop. A paradigm shifting production process that cut costs could still be found as long as production continues.
And yea, I don't think if you're working at the Blu-Ray chinese sweatshop, you were willing a fabulous and lavish lifestyle. Nor do I think they'll pay you to twiddle your thumb. Cos that is one sweatshop I would work at, if they did.
I wasn't saying that Blu-Ray production costs would drop as fast, or at all, but I did say they could theoretically still drop. A paradigm shifting production process that cut costs could still be found as long as production continues.
And yea, I don't think if you're working at the Blu-Ray chinese sweatshop, you were willing a fabulous and lavish lifestyle. Nor do I think they'll pay you to twiddle your thumb. Cos that is one sweatshop I would work at, if they did.
Yeah, I know, but a lot of those Chinese and Korean people need that $4 a day to feed their families.
The brunt of the cost is in the production line itself. Blu-rays have to use dedicated machines that can only be used for Blu-ray goods, so if you're not producing Blu-ray stuff, your $10 million machine is useless.
I think that's one big advantage of HDDVD. The already plentiful DVD factories can be easily updated to make HDDVDs, and the DVD machines themselves can be upgraded relatively cheaply.
If HDDVD fails, they still have DVD factories. If Blu-ray fails, you have the most expensive jungle gym known to man.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I wasn't saying that Blu-Ray production costs would drop as fast, or at all, but I did say they could theoretically still drop. A paradigm shifting production process that cut costs could still be found as long as production continues.
And yea, I don't think if you're working at the Blu-Ray chinese sweatshop, you were willing a fabulous and lavish lifestyle. Nor do I think they'll pay you to twiddle your thumb. Cos that is one sweatshop I would work at, if they did.
Yeah, I know, but a lot of those Chinese and Korean people need that $4 a day to feed their families.
The brunt of the cost is in the production line itself. Blu-rays have to use dedicated machines that can only be used for Blu-ray goods, so if you're not producing Blu-ray stuff, your $10 million machine is useless.
I think that's one big advantage of HDDVD. The already plentiful DVD factories can be easily updated to make HDDVDs, and the DVD machines themselves can be upgraded relatively cheaply.
If HDDVD fails, they still have DVD factories. If Blu-ray fails, you have the most expensive jungle gym known to man.
Do you have a link where I can read up on Blu-Ray production machinery? It's not that I doubt you, but I just wanna take a closer look.
I wasn't saying that Blu-Ray production costs would drop as fast, or at all, but I did say they could theoretically still drop. A paradigm shifting production process that cut costs could still be found as long as production continues.
And yea, I don't think if you're working at the Blu-Ray chinese sweatshop, you were willing a fabulous and lavish lifestyle. Nor do I think they'll pay you to twiddle your thumb. Cos that is one sweatshop I would work at, if they did.
Yeah, I know, but a lot of those Chinese and Korean people need that $4 a day to feed their families.
The brunt of the cost is in the production line itself. Blu-rays have to use dedicated machines that can only be used for Blu-ray goods, so if you're not producing Blu-ray stuff, your $10 million machine is useless.
I think that's one big advantage of HDDVD. The already plentiful DVD factories can be easily updated to make HDDVDs, and the DVD machines themselves can be upgraded relatively cheaply.
If HDDVD fails, they still have DVD factories. If Blu-ray fails, you have the most expensive jungle gym known to man.
Do you have a link where I can read up on Blu-Ray production machinery? It's not that I doubt you, but I just wanna take a closer look.
I'm sure I can pull one up here in a minute.
EDIT THE FIRST: My Google-fu is rusty, but I'll keep trying. It was huge news earlier, and was covered by just about everyone. Here's the first, and probably shittiest, thing I found.
What's left to see is whether the disc replicators will invest on a new replication lines for Blu-ray media, since so many things are still uncertain and there is no real activity in the market for either future HD format. The HD DVD format can be replicated easier through modified DVD replication lines, making it a safer option for most replicators. In addition, there was not any evidence of Blu-Ray discs being made to specifications until now, except from Sony's announcements. However, the new Blu-Ray replicators by Singulus could give the Blu-Ray format a boost.
EDIT THE SECOND : From the actual companies themselves, the full description and schematics for everything Blu-ray (WARNING: it's a big PDF):
Essentially, they had to create a whole new way of making such a precise disc, and now they use big phase transition machines for the discs themselves.
Long story short, they use specialized machines specifically made to manufacture Blu-ray stuff.
Edit - I'm going to note here that I personally haven't seen anything in HD myself. I don't know how much of a big difference it makes. DVD, however, is a format I feel is perfectly fine. Maybe when I see HD that'll change. Who knows. I'm just Joe Schmoe.
My first experience with actual HD content was with NFL football. Hot damn.
Nowadays though, you should be able to walk into any Sears, Best Buy, Costco, etc. and check out all the HD content there. For some reason though, being bombarded at all sides with HD stuff isn't as neat as just being at someone's house (or your own) and watching some quality HDTV show/movie/sport in a living room. (Maybe it's just me?)
The problem with walking into places that offer displays is that they aren't configured properly. The contrast is fucked, too bright, and sometimes there's blurry-as-hell screens set up. Technically I've seen HDTV, but until I see a TV that's fucking configured properly, I won't know what it really can bring.
I'd actually appreciate seeing DVD on one screen and HD on another. It's the only way I can make a real comparison. I'm quirky like that.
It depends on the place. Sure, maybe Walmart or even Best Buy may not be the best place to compare (although if it's well managed, who knows). Definitely a higher-end store, like a local electronics shop or maybe the Sony Style shop, will be better maintained. I know the Costco in my area actually does a good job with their HDTV sets and really showing them off. As a result, there's always someone carting off a new TV ...
Well I would hope they stop PS3 production. When they start it up later, the cost to produce them will have dropped and a price drop to the consumers will happen then. Or should happen. It's my understanding that the PS3's are selling at a pretty sizeable loss.
About a $200 loss per 60GB unit.
Problem is, the time that takes to burn off the huge unsold inventory would likely delay the price drop. Even if the production costs, currently at an estimated $800, drop by $200 next month, allowing the company to sell them for $500 (for example), dropping the price on the inventory manufactured at $800 a pop will cause them to lose $300, not $200 or the $100 lost if they were manufactured fresh.
And Sony's gaming division is gushing cash already.
Not to pick on you but the money Sony spent to manufacture those PS3s is already spent, or as they say "sunk costs". Letting the consoles sit on the shelves doesn't avoid the loss.
lowlylowlycook on
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Well I would hope they stop PS3 production. When they start it up later, the cost to produce them will have dropped and a price drop to the consumers will happen then. Or should happen. It's my understanding that the PS3's are selling at a pretty sizeable loss.
About a $200 loss per 60GB unit.
Problem is, the time that takes to burn off the huge unsold inventory would likely delay the price drop. Even if the production costs, currently at an estimated $800, drop by $200 next month, allowing the company to sell them for $500 (for example), dropping the price on the inventory manufactured at $800 a pop will cause them to lose $300, not $200 or the $100 lost if they were manufactured fresh.
And Sony's gaming division is gushing cash already.
Not to pick on you but the money Sony spent to manufacture those PS3s is already spent, or as they say "sunk costs". Letting the consoles sit on the shelves doesn't avoid the loss.
True, but it doesn't exactly encourage them to reduce cost, since they want to recoup as much of their initial investment as possible.
Posts
About a $200 loss per 60GB unit.
Problem is, the time that takes to burn off the huge unsold inventory would likely delay the price drop. Even if the production costs, currently at an estimated $800, drop by $200 next month, allowing the company to sell them for $500 (for example), dropping the price on the inventory manufactured at $800 a pop will cause them to lose $300, not $200 or the $100 lost if they were manufactured fresh.
And Sony's gaming division is gushing cash already.
Wait, what exactly is the danger? I don't understand. Are you saying it's a Catch-22 situation I presented? The cost of making the units won't sell unless they, uh, continue to make them?
Edit - I appreciate the link and the warning for the large images (I currently live in the rural shit hole; dialup). I'll check it later.
The problem with that is that I don't watch movies less than three feet away. I would need to know what they look like at least ten feet or more away from me.
But that's the catch-22 of this situation so far.
Lower manufacturing costs come from mass-manufacturing a product, so buying raw materials in massive bulk lowers the cost. Also, advances in manufacturing comes from noting the current form of manufacture, and streamlining it to raise the efficiency of the manufacturing process.
Stopping all production doesn't create either situation, so the cost of manufacturing doesn't really drop nearly as quickly as if they continued production.
If Blu-ray doesn't start taking off immediately, Sony will have to wait until the actual non-Blu-ray hardware drops, like the manufacture of the Cell processor, the ram, or any of the other components that are not Blu-ray related. Unfortunately, none of these parts are near the cost of the Blu-ray drive.
Most estimates say that the PS3 could have launched at a $400 price point if Blu-ray was not included, so you can see how important it is for the cost of Blu-ray production to be lowered.
So you're making these PS3 parts and one day Sony comes to you and says that they're going to have to put it all on hold... or ramp back the purchases they are making... all of a sudden your financial expectations are thrown for a loop... investors start selling stock... dogs and cats start living together... mass hysteria.
You can be sure that over time... while the parts production line is just sitting there... or moving at a trickle... that the cost of the parts you are making is going to lower at a much slower rate than if Sony had been buying boat loads in the meantime.
To me... in my experience just looking at trends and data... and we deal in stuff like parts for medical equipment ... cell phones etc... when you see cost hikes is when ordering slows down.
classic supply/demand.... but not on a retail scale
not something typical consumers think about
But your TV is also probably bigger than your computer screen, so it isn't that you see the difference because you sit close to your computer monitor. It's also the size of the screen you see it that determines whether you can tell the difference.
As for the production costs, just because PS3s aren't being manufactured doesn't mean that the parts aren't being used in in other products. The blu-ray diodes will still get cheaper because blu-ray players continue to be made. Cell processors could get cheaper if Sony suckers other companies to use them.
... and so on and so forth.
EDIT My point is production costs would still theoretically continue to fall.
But not even in the same realm as if the PS3s were continuing production.
How many people bought stand-alone Blu-ray players? 10,000? 20,000? Earlier in the thread, someone said that 1 million Blu-ray movies have been sold, even with the 3.5 million PS3s out there. I can't imagine that stand-alone players have sold enough to warrant mass manufacture on that type of scale.
So you go from manufacturing less than 100,000 Blu-ray players to manufacturing 5 million+ PS3s, then drop back down to the original number of stand-alone players.
I'm not seeing where the cost of production is lowered, especially now if there are expensive factories (and workers) outfitted to make Blu-ray drives sitting there, twiddling their thumbs.
... Man, this wouldn't have any impact on people being employed, would it?
Well, let's just say if I was working in a Sony (or any of its Blu-ray affiliates) factory where Blu-ray diodes are made, drives are put together, or Blu-ray discs are stamped, I wouldn't be planning on buying a Ferrari anytime soon.
Unless Blu-ray takes off, Sony's whole "People will buy anything with the Playstation brand on it no matter what hyuk hyuk" strategy will come to bite not only Sony in the ass, but investors, game developers, publishers, movie studios, factory workers, manufacturers, retailers, customers, and your mom.
All for the sake of trying to force a victory in an unnecessary format war.
And yea, I don't think if you're working at the Blu-Ray chinese sweatshop, you were willing a fabulous and lavish lifestyle. Nor do I think they'll pay you to twiddle your thumb. Cos that is one sweatshop I would work at, if they did.
Yeah, I know, but a lot of those Chinese and Korean people need that $4 a day to feed their families.
The brunt of the cost is in the production line itself. Blu-rays have to use dedicated machines that can only be used for Blu-ray goods, so if you're not producing Blu-ray stuff, your $10 million machine is useless.
I think that's one big advantage of HDDVD. The already plentiful DVD factories can be easily updated to make HDDVDs, and the DVD machines themselves can be upgraded relatively cheaply.
If HDDVD fails, they still have DVD factories. If Blu-ray fails, you have the most expensive jungle gym known to man.
Do you have a link where I can read up on Blu-Ray production machinery? It's not that I doubt you, but I just wanna take a closer look.
I'm sure I can pull one up here in a minute.
EDIT THE FIRST: My Google-fu is rusty, but I'll keep trying. It was huge news earlier, and was covered by just about everyone. Here's the first, and probably shittiest, thing I found.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=15182
EDIT THE SECOND : From the actual companies themselves, the full description and schematics for everything Blu-ray (WARNING: it's a big PDF):
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/BD-ROMwhitepaper20051123clean22-13264.pdf
Essentially, they had to create a whole new way of making such a precise disc, and now they use big phase transition machines for the discs themselves.
Long story short, they use specialized machines specifically made to manufacture Blu-ray stuff.
It depends on the place. Sure, maybe Walmart or even Best Buy may not be the best place to compare (although if it's well managed, who knows). Definitely a higher-end store, like a local electronics shop or maybe the Sony Style shop, will be better maintained. I know the Costco in my area actually does a good job with their HDTV sets and really showing them off. As a result, there's always someone carting off a new TV ...
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Not to pick on you but the money Sony spent to manufacture those PS3s is already spent, or as they say "sunk costs". Letting the consoles sit on the shelves doesn't avoid the loss.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
True, but it doesn't exactly encourage them to reduce cost, since they want to recoup as much of their initial investment as possible.