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[WoW] What Are All These Buttons, Paladin Thread?

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Posts

  • CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Odd holy pally change and a slight buff.

    Dammit. Denouce procs are what makes soloing in Holy mode ... entertaining? viable?.

    Oh well.
    Prot pallies get another nerf.

    +5% block chance. On a class whose Mastery bonus is +Block Chance. Stupid.
    Slight buff to ret pallies

    Yayness! I love my Selfless Healer spec.

    there are holy pallys who actually have denounce?

    ... yes?

    It massively speeds up the soloing process.

    there are people who level as holy???

    CasedOut on
    452773-1.png
  • ToddJewellToddJewell Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    hell I switched to prot spec while doing archaelogy because it kept putting me in the middle of mobs in uldum

    ToddJewell on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Denounce change will nerf the paladin I'm going to be leveling as holy. :/
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Odd holy pally change and a slight buff.

    Dammit. Denouce procs are what makes soloing in Holy mode ... entertaining? viable?.

    Oh well.
    Prot pallies get another nerf.

    +5% block chance. On a class whose Mastery bonus is +Block Chance. Stupid.
    Slight buff to ret pallies

    Yayness! I love my Selfless Healer spec.

    there are holy pallys who actually have denounce?

    ... yes?

    It massively speeds up the soloing process.

    there are people who level as holy???
    Yes. It's actually pretty effective and easy.

    forty on
  • mattclemmattclem Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Prot pallies get another nerf.

    +5% block chance. On a class whose Mastery bonus is +Block Chance. Stupid.

    It's looking like we're seeing half of some experimentation with Mastery for tanks as a whole:
    We are in the process of trying some different numbers for various talents and mechanics on the PTR, with the goal of making it harder (or impossible) to cap mastery. What we want to avoid is making mastery worthless or causing other undesirable effects.

    If we are successful, we will adjust the other tanks to be relatively balanced with paladins again.

    If we aren't successful, we know what the fall back position is (basically what we have now).

    At this time, we're in the middle of examining this and other changes. Please be reminded that we do read the forums, and appreciate feedback. A dispassionate perspective goes a long way.

    So there's no guarantee that Mastery stays as +block chance, or anything like that. Mind you, I'm amused that they're asking for feedback when there's not actually enough information around now to form an educated opinion.

    mattclem on
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well, I always thought Block chance was a pretty ... poor choice ... as a Mastery bonus. So if they can do something more interesting with it, then that's fine by me!

    The stated goal for Mastery was that there would never be a point at which you don't want more of it. Ret pallies, with +X% damage, match that goal. Prot pallies, with +X% block up to 100%, obviously do not.

    Elvenshae on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    It's going to be pretty disheartening if this mastery rejigging ends up in an overall nerf to tanks.

    forty on
  • mattclemmattclem Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    forty wrote: »
    It's going to be pretty disheartening if this mastery rejigging ends up in an overall nerf to tanks.

    To be fair, though, will that matter if the content in the game is brand new? You can only model tanks relative to fights, anyway. If tanks are a little weaker than they'd like overall, then they'd just make the fights a little easier to compensate.

    That said, there may be repercussions in the 5-man world.

    mattclem on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Heroics, all of T11, and T12 is a lot to nerf to compensate for some class changes.

    forty on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    mattclem wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    It's going to be pretty disheartening if this mastery rejigging ends up in an overall nerf to tanks.

    To be fair, though, will that matter if the content in the game is brand new? You can only model tanks relative to fights, anyway. If tanks are a little weaker than they'd like overall, then they'd just make the fights a little easier to compensate.

    That said, there may be repercussions in the 5-man world.

    Aaaaaaand that's the thing that I don't think even Blizzard has really realized yet.

    For all the focus on raids, typically, post xpack launch; I don't think it's a stretch to say that the majority of the playerbase aren't raiders. And they're not pvpers either. Those two groups might be the loudest and most vocal in regards to buffs/nerfs, but I honestly don't believe they make up even close to a very large portion of the playerbase.

    Blizzard clearly got it, to some degree, after the launch of Cataclysm and the clusterfuck of "heroics are too hard!" "No they're good, l2p nub!". They didn't want a repeat of the aoe fest that wotlk was, but they dug too deep in the other direction and it bit them in the ass. All the little nerfs here and there have improved the situation a lot, and made heroics more accessible than they were.

    They might have only lost about 500k of their active subscribers, but I'd honestly be more interested in seeing concurrent player numbers. Right now on an average night on either of my servers, it feels more like the tail end of WotLK than early in a new xpack. There still might be 11.5 million people paying, but there aren't remotely as many actually playing, and I think it has mostly to do with the Heroic situation at the start of cata.

    My point is that any major dorking with mastery will, sure, effect raiders, but in the end it'll effect far more people who only do 5 mans and heroics. And at a time when they're going out of their way to try to get more people to tank to reduce queue times, another factor IMO in the people actually playing dropping off hard, dicking tanks over isn't going to help the problem at all.

    It's not as simple as "oh I guess it'll effect 5 mans as well". That's their bread and butter. They can keep trying to make the next big bad raids all the want, and as well they should, those are valuable players too; but if their attempts to "fix" raiding dicks over non-raiders, the impact would only worsen the problem they're currently in.

    I'm not at all doom and gloom. WoW isn't on its way out and it'll probably still be around when my kids are old enough to play, shit maybe even when they have their own kids. But I do think, so far, Cata has been a massive misstep in making a game that will last for as long as it could. Honestly, I think it's been the biggest misstep so far in the history of WoW. At least back in TBC some of the stupid shit could be chalked up to the game still being young, the MMO genre still being young, and Blizzard still learning things as they went along. But I feel like they threw out the window a lot that they learned in WotLK. Maybe raiders were pissy that raids and heroics became so accessible; but I believe that most of the rest of the playerbase actually liked it.

    The Dude With Herpes on
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  • Basren DragonsnackBasren Dragonsnack Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well it looks like they've reverted the Holy Shield change on the latest PTR build. Either they couldn't figure out how to change tanking mastery or whatever they're planning doesn't involve needing to change Holy Shield.

    Basren Dragonsnack on
    PSN: Scotty85
  • WaltWalt Waller Arcane Enchanted Frozen ElectrifiedRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    stuff
    I did the cata raids (except al'akir) and quit because raiding is boring and even when its hard its not really compelling. I mess up a mechanic 0-1 times and then wait for everyone else to catch on. No thanks.

    I really don't want that same sense of bang your head on the wall progression in 5 mans. I just want to log on, kill some mans, collect some lewtz, and go do something else. I like you WoW, but your challenge is ultimately a lot less compelling than everything else about you.

    Walt on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well it looks like they've reverted the Holy Shield change on the latest PTR build. Either they couldn't figure out how to change tanking mastery or whatever they're planning doesn't involve needing to change Holy Shield.

    Good.

    I think the thing that really confused me with how they were handling this was how they changed Holy Shield...but nothing changed with the Mastery.

    Nobody on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Ran my first raid as Ret the other night. Here's a parse. Tell me what I'm doing wrong.

    Salvation122 on
  • sassfactor4sassfactor4 Brooklyn, NYRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Your exorcisms should probably be way less prevalent, are you doing the "normal" rotation? Never exorcise unless you get the instant proc.

    crusader strike to 3 HP, judgement \ holy wrath \ consecrate during cooldowns
    If Zealotry is available, turn that on, then If inquisition isn't up, inquisition. if it is up, templar's verdict.

    on boss cooldown periods, pop GOAK, wait for 10 stacks of strength, pop avenging wrath and any trinkets, now hammer of wrath is above crusader strike in that prority above. Use Zealotry when it comes back off cooldown.

    The elitist jerks forum can explain it better probably. theres also the retclr add on but ive never used it.

    sassfactor4 on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    My guess is that they were planning on turning mastery into something that increased block amount. Otherwise it would make no sense to increase the base block rate for paladins if the intent was to make sure they didn't cap out mastery next tier.

    forty on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Your exorcisms should probably be way less prevalent, are you doing the "normal" rotation? Never exorcise unless you get the instant proc.
    Only popping Exo on instant, but it seems to come up all the fucking time. Maybe I'm just lucky, I dunno.
    crusader strike to 3 HP, judgement \ holy wrath \ consecrate during cooldowns
    If Zealotry is available, turn that on, then If inquisition isn't up, inquisition. if it is up, templar's verdict.
    All of that is basically what I'm (at least attempting) to do, and I feel like I did okay overall. I'm not sure if Inq uptime at ~90% is acceptable or not, seemed okay but it feels like it should be higher.

    Salvation122 on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    What are your stats like? Specifically your secondary stats. If you think your DPS isn't where it should be, I'm curious how you're prioritizing them.

    forty on
  • SammichSammich Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I tried that Mrrobot thing for my toon and after its optimizations im doing less dps than i did before. I went from pull 15.5 to 16k(I cannot get over this hump for some reason unless its a boss fight) to going to 14.5 to around 15k. I only do heroics here. 2 reasons could be i was in a caster heavy group and all i had was my BoM and since i only do heroics i didnt bother capping +hit so now i had to reforge a decent amount to +hit. Mind you its not like i was above 1.2% miss for raid bosses either.

    Its also doing weird stuff like picking Jeklik's Smasher over the reforged trollbane even tho its asking me to reforge crit to hit on the smasher while the trollbane already has the +hit that i can reforge to something else or remove the reforges off other gear. Ill play with it some more.

    Sammich on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    forty wrote: »
    What are your stats like? Specifically your secondary stats. If you think your DPS isn't where it should be, I'm curious how you're prioritizing them.

    I logged out in tank gear, but from memory, I'm at 7.9% hit, 28 expertise (after reforging all of it away, wish I could get a Zin'Rokh instead of Shalug'doom), ~8.5% crit, 15-ish Mastery, and as little haste as I can, maybe 5% or so.

    I'm in basically full off-set 359 gear. Have a ring and some bracers from Zul'Aman, rep belt and neck. Everything else is a T11 drop.

    Salvation122 on
  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I just resubbed after remembering how fun it was to destroy groups by spamming Crusader Strike and Divine Storm like crazy during WotLK. I remember Art of War granting a free instant Exorcism or Flash of Light so I never had to eat/drink again. Now I come back to find the talent tree completely reworked and a lot of spells removed. Crusader Strike doesn't do AoE anymore and shares its cooldown with Divine Storm. Art of War now only grants a free Exorcism and now there's this new bar for "Holy Power."

    Man what the hell. Is this supposed to be more intuitive than the old system?

    Glyph on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Intuitive?

    No.

    They just wanted it to be more "interesting".

    Which...failed. Instead of the old priority/firstcomefirstserve system we have a faux-combo system that requires you to play simon instead of wack a mole.

    It's not any more interesting, it's just different.

    You get used to it.

    One of the side effects though is that paladin dps ended up not being as faceroll as it was before so there's a clear and obvious difference between someone who is good at ret and someone who just picked it before because they could get high numbers without trying.

    I suppose that's a plus? But when you're just trying to finish a fucking heroic with a random mouthbreather who is still playing a paladin I'd almost prefer to just give them back their ball and let them do their dps so I can finish the fucking thing as opposed to having them pull 4k on aoe trash in a heroic.

    On the other hand, despite pissing and moaning about it for awhile, I am of the opinion that Prot came out the better hands down after the changes. I have never played holy so I can't speak to that.

    The Dude With Herpes on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    It wasn't just about being more "interesting," but about being less faceroll, which as you noted they did succeed in.

    forty on
  • SammichSammich Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Glyph, you should be thankful you didnt try ret when Cat went live. It was horrible, new changes, crap dps. At least now you can do some pretty great dps tho that WoG nerf still bugs me. If that change was there while Cat went live i think i would have quit playing my paly.

    Sammich on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Is a 10-second cooldown on WoG that bad?

    forty on
  • SammichSammich Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well it helped a lot when your dps sucked in the beginning of CAT. Or i used it to keep myself alive. Now not so much as things drop like 3 times faster than they used to(As much to do with gear as it was to fixing the class). But still, its more of a solo/dungeon use than a raid thing where i guess was the reason for the change. On the other hand, if you were relying on a Paly to waste 3 holy power just to heal you with WoG i think there was a bigger issue elsewhere.

    Sammich on
  • Comrade1809Comrade1809 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    forty wrote: »
    Is a 10-second cooldown on WoG that bad?

    It's 20 seconds unless you get a talent for it. I think Selfless Healer is supposed to cut it down to 10 seconds, or maybe those are proposed changes from the PTR. I know that a talent in the Holy tree takes the cooldown off entirely. Although that doesn't help Ret any at all.

    Comrade1809 on
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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    It's 20 seconds unless you get a talent for it. I think Selfless Healer is supposed to cut it down to 10 seconds, or maybe those are proposed changes from the PTR. I know that a talent in the Holy tree takes the cooldown off entirely. Although that doesn't help Ret any at all.
    It's a 20s cooldown natively.

    Spec'ing Holy at all removes the cooldown on WoG.

    4.2 on PTR has a 10s reduction in the cooldown for Ret with two points in Selfless Healer.

    The earlier changes really fuck with my Selfless Healer spec., where I actually put full points into Eternal Glory so that I could, occasionally, drop a WoG *and* a TV.

    Elvenshae on
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Unless they've changed the changes in 4.2 already, yeah, it's selfless healer that makes the CD 10s instead of 20.

    Which...honestly doesn't make it much more appealing. While I was personally a fan of selfless healer for spare points over things like Eye for an Eye, it was unquestionably a dps loss, and unless Firelands content is brutally hard on healers for raid damage, its useful time feels past now with heroics being (mostly) manageable by pugs.

    I mean...even something like Eye for an Eye is so situational that in vast amounts of time it'll do absolutely nothing, when it does do something, it is an overall unquestionable dps gain. Selfless healer is an unquestionable dps loss regardless of the cooldown of WoG because you'll never make up the dps loss of using those 3 hopos on something other than TV or Inq, buff or no.

    Would I ever give someone shit for taking Selfless healer? As long as they still had their core talents; nope.

    On the other hand, I think it'll make a decent amount of difference in PvP, the change in cd from 20->10, and that might really be what it's for; but the dps gain from selfless healer isn't going to make or break you.

    Selfless Healer is just an odd man out. It's not entirely for PvE, and made sense when there was no cd on WoG, but no longer does, and since that change, the cd change will matter for PvP but the dps buff doesn't.

    The Dude With Herpes on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Most/all the ret paladin players I saw upset about the WoG change claimed they picked up Selfless Healer and loved using WoG for spot heals and such, so that's why I called it a 10-second cooldown in the ret context.
    I mean...even something like Eye for an Eye is so situational that in vast amounts of time it'll do absolutely nothing, when it does do something, it is an overall unquestionable dps gain. Selfless healer is an unquestionable dps loss regardless of the cooldown of WoG because you'll never make up the dps loss of using those 3 hopos on something other than TV or Inq, buff or no.
    Except SH is unquestionably a DPS gain over not having it in any situation where you would have WoG'd anyway.

    Edit: And anyone who wasn't using WoG shouldn't be upset about the cooldown.

    forty on
  • AphostileAphostile San Francisco, CARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Hmmm....

    Dodge: Death Knights, paladins, and warriors no longer receive any bonus to their chance to dodge from Agility. Their base chance to dodge is now a fixed 5%.
    Parry: Death Knights, paladins, and warriors now receive 27% of their Strength bonuses as parry rating, up from 25%. This conversion still only applies to Strength above and beyond their base Strength.

    Aphostile on
    Nothing. Matters.
  • TinTin Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Aphostile wrote: »
    Hmmm....

    Dodge: Death Knights, paladins, and warriors no longer receive any bonus to their chance to dodge from Agility. Their base chance to dodge is now a fixed 5%.
    Parry: Death Knights, paladins, and warriors now receive 27% of their Strength bonuses as parry rating, up from 25%. This conversion still only applies to Strength above and beyond their base Strength.

    Well that sucks. I'm going to miss the avoidance from horn of winter, and it will make gearing options for rings, trinket, neck, etc more limited.

    Tin on
  • lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Tin wrote: »
    Aphostile wrote: »
    Hmmm....

    Dodge: Death Knights, paladins, and warriors no longer receive any bonus to their chance to dodge from Agility. Their base chance to dodge is now a fixed 5%.
    Parry: Death Knights, paladins, and warriors now receive 27% of their Strength bonuses as parry rating, up from 25%. This conversion still only applies to Strength above and beyond their base Strength.

    Well that sucks. I'm going to miss the avoidance from horn of winter, and it will make gearing options for rings, trinket, neck, etc more limited.

    What about the leg enchant?

    lionheart_m on
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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Apparently the gin is flowing freely this PTR:
    -Guarded By The Light no longer interacts with Holy Shield in any way.
    -Holy Shield has been redesigned. This talent is now an activated ability off the global cooldown. It grants 20% increased block amount to a paladin's shield blocks for 10 seconds, with a 30-second cooldown.

    Time to set up macros to put Holy Shield into Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous.

    Nobody on
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Yeah, that's ... Huh.

    I mean, it's a buff to the amount while its up, certainly, but the weird downtime / rotation thing is just ...

    Blech.

    Elvenshae on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Yeah, thinking about it I'm probably not going to macro it to CS and HotR, but it looks like somebody got nostalgic for the old school Holy Shield or got jealous over Shield Block.

    Nobody on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Maybe they should just go back to the WotlK rotation

    That worked pretty well, was no more boring than stuff is now, and didn't involve getting hit with nonsensical nerfs all the goddamn time

    Salvation122 on
  • mattclemmattclem Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Nobody wrote: »
    Time to set up macros to put Holy Shield into Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous.

    I'm not sure that's a good idea. It's completely wasted if it happens to come off cooldown just as the boss is busy casting rather than hitting you. I think I'd prefer it to be hittable as and when I need it. But that means finding another keybinding for it. I might map it to Q for old times' sake.

    Other than finding the keybinding, I don't hate this. Although I still think it's work-in-progress, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a "Mastery increases block value with HS up" factor we've not seen yet.

    mattclem on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    mattclem wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Time to set up macros to put Holy Shield into Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous.

    I'm not sure that's a good idea. It's completely wasted if it happens to come off cooldown just as the boss is busy casting rather than hitting you. I think I'd prefer it to be hittable as and when I need it. But that means finding another keybinding for it. I might map it to Q for old times' sake.

    Other than finding the keybinding, I don't hate this. Although I still think it's work-in-progress, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a "Mastery increases block value with HS up" factor we've not seen yet.

    Right, which is why I posted afterward that I'm not going to macro that in. Not sure where I'm going to find the keybinding though, maybe I'll just take WoG off my bars since that seems to be what Blizzard is intending :P

    Nobody on
  • mattclemmattclem Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Nobody wrote: »
    mattclem wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Time to set up macros to put Holy Shield into Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous.

    I'm not sure that's a good idea. It's completely wasted if it happens to come off cooldown just as the boss is busy casting rather than hitting you. I think I'd prefer it to be hittable as and when I need it. But that means finding another keybinding for it. I might map it to Q for old times' sake.

    Right, which is why I posted afterward that I'm not going to macro that in. Not sure where I'm going to find the keybinding though, maybe I'll just take WoG off my bars since that seems to be what Blizzard is intending :P

    What do you think's currently mapped to Q? :-)

    I'm thinking HS to Q, and I don't *think* I'm using ALT-1 currently, so WoG can go there.

    Edit: That said, if HS is off-GCD, I wonder if macroing it to cast *with* WoG is non-insane.

    mattclem on
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    mattclem wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    mattclem wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Time to set up macros to put Holy Shield into Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous.

    I'm not sure that's a good idea. It's completely wasted if it happens to come off cooldown just as the boss is busy casting rather than hitting you. I think I'd prefer it to be hittable as and when I need it. But that means finding another keybinding for it. I might map it to Q for old times' sake.

    Right, which is why I posted afterward that I'm not going to macro that in. Not sure where I'm going to find the keybinding though, maybe I'll just take WoG off my bars since that seems to be what Blizzard is intending :P

    What do you think's currently mapped to Q? :-)

    I'm thinking HS to Q, and I don't *think* I'm using ALT-1 currently, so WoG can go there.

    Edit: That said, if HS is off-GCD, I wonder if macroing it to cast *with* WoG is non-insane.

    Lawl.

    well, my thought on it is if you were saving up HP for a transition (like Argaloth or whatever his name is in BH) so you could taunt/shield slam, and it's macroed to WoG that could cause problems.

    I've thought about macroing it to Inquisition, but that feels clunky too.

    Nobody on
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