Judgement Day and We Can Know: What the hell?

MechMantis · June 2011

lonelyahava wrote: »

The first five books are the Torah, the rest of the Old Testament are still part of the jewish bible, but they are not the foundations.

The first five books contain creation (two different stories, one in which God speaks and things happen and one in which God actually plants the trees himself), the flood, and any other manner of stories that are used to give a sense of beginning and a sense of guidance. Exodus provides the details behind the forming and bonding of the disparate groups of Hebrews into one nation, the children of Israel. Also that whole getting out of Egypt thing. Plus the Ten Commandments. The first 5 are between man and God the next 5 between man and man (oh and let's not forget that the 10 commandments are different for jews and gentiles, we number them differently).

It's all there. every type of story that you can want. Travel, war, intrigue, porn, history, current events.

And they're all stories. The rest of the Bible gets even more stories. Samuel, Kings I &II, Ruth, Judges. They're all stories. Some of them may be factual, some may be allegories and fables and legends changed and adapted to fit in.

The Torah is holy, the Bible is holy, the Talmud... The Talmud is holy in its own way. The Mishnah (man i know i'm getting some of these wrong...)

There are books, hundreds and hundreds of books that are filled with arguments, documented arguments and discussions between rabbis centuries and longer ago about what this means or that means. When you are growing up and you have passed your Bat/bar Mitzvah, you are given the chance to Study more. And you usually start with the Talmudic teachings and the Mishnah. Books of arguments over whether or not God spoke the world into existence, planted it, or if its a metaphor.

Books of arguments over centuries of whether or not certain sacrifices can be made now that the temple is gone. Centuries of arguments and discussions written down in books. Volumes of these to cover just Genesis. I remember the one in my Rabbi's office, on the top of the page there was a small portion of the text, a passage or two, maybe three if nothing was going on. And then the rest of the page was covered with notations. well documented notations from Rabbis over the centuries. Maimonodes, Ben Yehuda, Etc.

It is trained into us from birth that you are meant to question God and the Bible. You are supposed to ask those questions, supposed to ponder and debate and argue. From the first day in Hebrew school you are taught not only about the Bible, but the language, the traditions, and to ask questions.

You can't understand your religion, your history, or yourself unless you ask. You have to ask or you're simply going along for the ride. Which for some people is true, they go along until they get Bar/Bat mitzvahed, have the party, take the money and run. Some people don't get that far and have a hard time with the religion as a whole and they can't be satisfied with the answers so they leave and never look back.

The big difference, and I am trying to stress this enough, the big difference is that you SHOULD ask questions. You should question your faith and the teachings, you SHOULD ponder what it means to be a Jew, what does God want from you. It's the way it's supposed to be. And yes, if you end up doubting your faith, if you end up not believing in God and all that you were taught, then so be it. A blessing on your house and your head and off you go.

It's hard to completely explain it better than that. It's hard for somebody, anybody, who knows only the christian way of doing things, where you don't question or you get into trouble, just how much asking is a part of the experience of being a Jew. It's one of those core concepts that's hard to figure out.

This is pretty much how I was raised, only replace Bar/Bat mitzvah with Confirmation, Hebrew school with CCD, and Jew with Catholic, as a note.

lonelyahava · June 2011

There actually is a Jewish Confirmation process. it happens when you're around... i think 16? a bar/Bat Mitzvah has you reading from the haftorah (the books after the first 5) and leading the services for the congregation. from what I understand, Confirmation is actually doing the Torah readings (considerably harder than haftorah for various reasons) and the services, as well as a few years of actually studying the Talmud and the teachings. My synagogue wasn't in a big area and most of the people i grew up with were only there for the bat/bar mitzvah, the party, and the money. I would have loved to have gotten confirmed, but nobody wanted to be bothered with teaching me.

small towns, sheesh

jothki · June 2011

What I'm wondering about is the history, though. I know that at one point, there was a unified priesthood, and I assume that they, being a priesthood, were probably as dogmatic as any other priesthood at the time. The current state of the religion seems to me like it'd probably be more based on the conditions faced by Jews as a whole over the past two thousand years, where there would be far less unity.

Or was it always like that? I wouldn't mind reading a quick reference.

Tcheldor · June 2011

The Talmud is not holy. The Talmud is a bunch of scholarly rabbis sitting around the torah and writing comments in the margins.

It's a wonderful concept.

mythago · June 2011

lonelyahava wrote: »

There actually is a Jewish Confirmation process.

That's a Reform thing. It's also not a requirement for being Jewish. Heck, neither is the bar/bat mitzvah ceremony; I mean you *are* a bar/bat mitzvah (Jewish adult) when you hit the right age, you don't have to go through a Torah reading and a party. It's not confirmation or communion in the Christian sense.

jothki, "dogmatic as any other priesthood at the time" doesn't say much.

dojango · June 2011

jothki wrote: »

What I'm wondering about is the history, though. I know that at one point, there was a unified priesthood, and I assume that they, being a priesthood, were probably as dogmatic as any other priesthood at the time. The current state of the religion seems to me like it'd probably be more based on the conditions faced by Jews as a whole over the past two thousand years, where there would be far less unity.

Or was it always like that? I wouldn't mind reading a quick reference.

Even in the days of the priesthood, the Jews were fairly divided. There was a lot of fighting between groups. The 'Macabees', for example, fought not just against the Selucids, but against Jews that were too closely allied to the Selucids. And the Zealots fought against the Essenes, I believe, during the period leading up to the Jewish revolt of 70 AD.
Not to mention the civil war that lead to the division of the earliest Jewish state into "Judea" and "Israel".

jothki · June 2011

dojango wrote: »

jothki wrote: »

What I'm wondering about is the history, though. I know that at one point, there was a unified priesthood, and I assume that they, being a priesthood, were probably as dogmatic as any other priesthood at the time. The current state of the religion seems to me like it'd probably be more based on the conditions faced by Jews as a whole over the past two thousand years, where there would be far less unity.

Or was it always like that? I wouldn't mind reading a quick reference.

Even in the days of the priesthood, the Jews were fairly divided. There was a lot of fighting between groups. The 'Macabees', for example, fought not just against the Selucids, but against Jews that were too closely allied to the Selucids. And the Zealots fought against the Essenes, I believe, during the period leading up to the Jewish revolt of 70 AD.
Not to mention the civil war that lead to the division of the earliest Jewish state into "Judea" and "Israel".

True, all of those groups had slipped my mind.

mythago · June 2011

And don't forget the Samaritans.

lonelyahava · June 2011

jothki wrote: »

What I'm wondering about is the history, though. I know that at one point, there was a unified priesthood, and I assume that they, being a priesthood, were probably as dogmatic as any other priesthood at the time. The current state of the religion seems to me like it'd probably be more based on the conditions faced by Jews as a whole over the past two thousand years, where there would be far less unity.

Or was it always like that? I wouldn't mind reading a quick reference.

There was. But that was pretty much destroyed along with the second temple in 70 CE. Without the Temple to hold the rituals and the more central ceremonies in, the religion became more community focused. When the second Diaspora happened (somebody else will have to give a time for that, i think it was sometime around 100 or so CE), and the Jews were forced from Palestine and out into the world, than it became even more reinforced with the community feeling. There was no central temple to go to, there was no central priesthood.

Technically, today, there is still a priesthood. Know anybody that's Jewish with the name of Cohen? Or some variation of that? They're probably descendents of long lines of Cohens (pronounced Co-hane), or Priests. Everytime the Torah is read to the congregation, the first blessing goes to the Cohen of the congregation or family. Blessings are said 7 times, before the reading of each passage (this is true for the haftorah as well) And the first is always a Cohen, a descendent of the Priests (And Aaron). The second is a Levite, a descendent of the shepherds (and Moses if you want a tie-in) that used to lead the people. After those two, anybody who is Jewish can be called. for a bat/bar mitzvah the last prayer is usually said by the child performing the service.

As far as a reference, I honestly don't know. Most of this I know simply from years at hebrew school. There used to be these books that were published back in the 70s... Jewish catalogues hmm.... Here we go That's the first one, there are 2 more. they go into decent detail.

But honestly, the best books I've read so far have been the Idiots Guides. Jewish History and Culture and Understanding Judaism are fascinating reads and the author is just fantastic. He has a sense of humor that reminds me of my rabbi. I would start there, if you're really curious and have more questions than I have answers to.

edit:: plus all that other stuff the other guys said.

mythago:: is it really reform? Huh. They were just starting to offer it at my conservative synagogue when i was going away for uni. but then, my synagogue was.. well, i'll be nice and just say that there are reasons i shy away from synagogues and temples and organization now....

dojango · June 2011

If you want a 'Jewish' source, try Josephus. History of the Jewish people and The Jewish War. And Josephus's story itself is pretty interesting.

Atomika · June 2011

Harold Camping's rapture may have come early. He's been hospitalized with a stroke.

CNN.

Liquid Ghost · June 2011

There will be other thieves and nutjobs to take his place. It's like they make these dudes in a fucking factory or something. I eagerly wait the debut of Greedy Evangelist Guy #3,102.

Shanadeus · June 2011

That is quite sad.
I hope he'll be alright.

Jean Claude Van Calm · June 2011

Atomic Ross wrote: »

Harold Camping's rapture may have come early. He's been hospitalized with a stroke.

CNN.

Wait wait wait. So people actually get smited for being giant douchebags that trick other douches into giving away all their money for nothing? Guys... god is real!

Oh wait, he's just really old and wants 15 minutes of fame before a lonely death? Ok, sorry. Carry on.

Hank_Scorpio · June 2011

It isn't sad. He's a crook. Fuck him.

Henroid · June 2011

Hank_Scorpio wrote: »

It isn't sad. He's a crook. Fuck him.

That's a little harsh. You have a disagreement with the dude, that's all it should be.

Hell I have a disagreement with the dude, but a stroke is a stroke and it sucks.

JihadJesus · June 2011

Yeah, watching an old guy slowly die after a crushing, life defining dissapointment is not a good time to go all Nelson Muntz. I also don't necessarily think he's a crook - deluded and hypocritical if his death bed is a pile of cash, sure, but that doesn't automatically make him a crook.

Magus` · June 2011

At least he's hurting less people this way.

I hope.

Tach · June 2011

I'd be lying if I said there isn't an element of shadenfreude washing over me with this news.

So yeah, sucks to be him, but hey- God's will, right?

mythago · June 2011

By all accounts he actually does believe his own bullshit. When Engineers Go Bad: A Cautionary Tale.

Bama · June 2011

True believer or not, he doesn't seem to care about all the harm his crappy prophecies have caused his followers and he definitely hasn't tried to rectify any of it. I feel pretty ok saying he's a complete shitheel and that it's for the best if he shuffles off this mortal coil before he pulls yet another stunt.

Cantido · June 2011

I'm more concerned with what twisted human being is going to inherit his money hats.

ACSIS · June 2011

Elitistb wrote: »

ACSIS wrote: »

You mean after struggeling through all the ruins for survival? Yes, certainly. Such things have a certain impact on society.
You see, it wasn't religion, it wasn't science. That was an excuse. The real reason was thinking to be superior to all others up to the point where they decided the others aren't good enough to be threatened as humans.

Attitude.

So, in short, yes, you are just trolling.

Its Germany. People don't take religion very serious there. Go forth and share all you got with the poor? Measured by this, who IS taking religion serious?

Juggstown Massacre · June 2011

ACSIS wrote: »

Elitistb wrote: »

ACSIS wrote: »

You mean after struggeling through all the ruins for survival? Yes, certainly. Such things have a certain impact on society.
You see, it wasn't religion, it wasn't science. That was an excuse. The real reason was thinking to be superior to all others up to the point where they decided the others aren't good enough to be threatened as humans.

Attitude.

So, in short, yes, you are just trolling.

Its Germany. People don't take religion very serious there. Go forth and share all you got with the poor? Measured by this, who IS taking religion serious?

Anthony Weiner.

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