Obnoxious is the most terrible way to balance the game.
wow
Except the problem that it doesn't work because it is inconsistent (Janna ult is never, ever fun to be on the enemy team for), doesn't fix the issue (still bitching and moaning about Vlad), and highly relative (I'll lane against Vlad all damn day. Just don't make me lane vs. Zilean).
I agree with the principal that something should be changed if annoying but not OP, but Riot's implementation has been piss poor. And even still, just changing numbers doesn't usually fix the problem. If a hero is fundamentally unfun to play against, they should get a remake, not nerfed into oblivion.
Edit: Also, I think Shen's ult was one of the most fun additions Riot made in LOL. Being able to tangibly support allies, such as saving them from ganks, is very rewarding and fun for both players in a way that I think cancels out any annoyance it might generate in the enemies. Shen's ult is easily responsible for about 75% of the times I've been outright thanked by another player in LOL, and that is a priceless feeling. Not congratulated, but thanked.
Vlad is probably the best caster in the game right now.
No, he's not. "Incredibly" is probably an overstatement, but his lack of CC, low damage scaling, and incredible early game weakness makes him a less than ideal choice.
"having fun", whether it's the people playing it or the people watching streams, should be riot's #1 priority
if the game isn't fun to play, and isn't fun to watch, they are not making a good game
I don't see how that's really any different than balancing by annoyance factor, it's just the other side of the same coin. I'm sure dusting entire teams with the old Pants was great fun, but I'm glad they toned him down regardless.
i'm arguing in SUPPORT of nerfing things that are annoying and toxic to play against
he's saying that's the worst possible way to balance the game
My point is ultimately that what's fun for one, is annoying for another. It's fun to win, it sucks to lose. Hence balancing for fun or annoyance are really balancing the same thing.
Singed left 5 minutes into the game, Cait AFK-ed @ fountain.
In my previous game, an ezreal intentionally fed 12 consecutive deaths to a Pantheon.
I still say that besides outright leaving, many, many other offenses should be a first time perma-ban. Account is gone, purchased stuff is gone, no warning, go straight to another community. No decent human being stays in the fountain to trash talk instead of leaving. No decent human being starts feeding from minute 0 in the match.
No, he's not. "Incredibly" is probably an overstatement, but his lack of CC, low damage scaling, and incredible early game weakness makes him a less than ideal choice.
Well, he was apparently an ideal choice for the Dreamhack qualifiers, since he was a top pick or ban in many of those games.
His early game weakness is extremely easy for a competent team to play around. Most champs are unable to fight Vlad + creeps pre-6, and if someone is playing too aggressive you can just call for a gank. Vlad is an overpowered pubstomper in low ELO, he feels kind of weak in mid ELO because he won't get proper support, and goes back to being overpowered in high-ELO because he'll have a team that CCs his targets and keeps him alive through his mediocre early game.
vlad has several bad lane match ups even after level 9. there are lots of sustainability options that let people lane against him. a lot of the champion bans in the tournament are because someone mains them(like the lee sin ban). the only really universal one was TF.
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Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
Vlad is overnerfed?
Still seems pretty strong to me
A caster that gets stronger by having more HP, so he's tough to kill and does good damage, and heals himself
And oh no, if he gets really hurt, he can just puddle away
EDIT - damn servers, so what do you do to counter this guy, so I can put him in his place next time
Forever Zefiro on
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
A caster that gets stronger by having more HP, so he's tough to kill and does good damage, and heals himself
And oh no, if he gets really hurt, he can just puddle away
EDIT - damn servers, so what do you do to counter this guy, so I can put him in his place next time
Countering vlad is pretty simple in solo queue. The reason vlad was picked a lot in like the tournament settings is because its premades and they can make up for his weaknesses. Which is namely lack of cc.
IMO the two top picks to counter a vald are:
Morde
Soraka
If you are up agaisnt vlad, and you can play a mean morde, pick morde and ask to lane against vlad. Run Teleport + Ignite. If vlad switches lanes, ask for a lane switch to follow, use your teleport to keep you ahead. Vlad cannot lane against morde, morde eats vlads for breakfast.
Soraka, soraka's main purpose against vlad is to silence vlad when vlad wants to pool. A lot of vlads will ult then trollpool, soraka can silence instantly, leave vlad completely vunerable for 3 seconds, after which he is likely dead. Soraka's ult can prevent vlad from picking up extra kills on allies that escaped the fight but had vlads ult ticking off on them.
Currently vlad is a poor pick in the average solo queue, but really strong in premades.
A caster that gets stronger by having more HP, so he's tough to kill and does good damage, and heals himself
And oh no, if he gets really hurt, he can just puddle away
EDIT - damn servers, so what do you do to counter this guy, so I can put him in his place next time
Three ways:
Burst AP + Ignite: Level 6 Annie is a good example here. If you bait his pool, he's dead. End of story.
Tanky DPS: Shen is a great 1v1 vs. Vlad, actually, and pre-most recent nerf could 1v1 a good Vlad with good itemizations at similar K/D throughout the game.
Junglers: See below.
One of the most important parts of beating Vlad is having red buff. It's not the only way, but it is a gigantic game changer against him as the damage continues while he is pooled and really adds up fast.
WW is one of the best Vlad counters, because he can 1v1 him from 100% to dead without losing any real HP as he rushes out of the jungle with double buffs, and pool isn't enough to escape WW, especially one who saves his ult properly.
I've found Vlads consistently hilariously easy to beat, unless fed by others, as I understand his mechanics to a deep level. If I had advice to give to someone who has never played him before, or only once a while ago, it would be:
a. use ignite
b. use red buff
c. He (usually) only gets one pool, it costs him HP, and he takes DOTs while in it, so work around that.
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OnTheLastCastlelet's keep it haimish for the peripateticRegistered Userregular
But what if you are up against me and my brother and I pick Soraka when he picks Vlad? :D
Soraka with her aura and an Aegis and her heal provides Vlad with a lovely +90ish temporary armour after a pool and constant 30 mr. If he is facing Malz/Annie he grabs a negatron cloak and makes sure not to initiate which makes him wonderfully hard to kill. Granted this is only at 1400-1500 elo, we are bound to hit a ceiling soon enough. It's a great way for us to get some easy wins atm.
A caster that gets stronger by having more HP, so he's tough to kill and does good damage, and heals himself
And oh no, if he gets really hurt, he can just puddle away
I typed up a long rant to this but instead tl;dr - Vlad has an amazing lane phase from 7 to whenever team fights start happening and that's why he's good. Everything you listed as an advantage becomes just shy of meaningless for teamfights, where the only thing of real value he brings is the damage boost on his ult.
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Except the problem that it doesn't work because it is inconsistent (Janna ult is never, ever fun to be on the enemy team for), doesn't fix the issue (still bitching and moaning about Vlad), and highly relative (I'll lane against Vlad all damn day. Just don't make me lane vs. Zilean).
I agree with the principal that something should be changed if annoying but not OP, but Riot's implementation has been piss poor. And even still, just changing numbers doesn't usually fix the problem. If a hero is fundamentally unfun to play against, they should get a remake, not nerfed into oblivion.
Edit: Also, I think Shen's ult was one of the most fun additions Riot made in LOL. Being able to tangibly support allies, such as saving them from ganks, is very rewarding and fun for both players in a way that I think cancels out any annoyance it might generate in the enemies. Shen's ult is easily responsible for about 75% of the times I've been outright thanked by another player in LOL, and that is a priceless feeling. Not congratulated, but thanked.
No, he's not. "Incredibly" is probably an overstatement, but his lack of CC, low damage scaling, and incredible early game weakness makes him a less than ideal choice.
He really is quite a great character. His ult is super powerful when placed correctly in a team fight.
My point is ultimately that what's fun for one, is annoying for another. It's fun to win, it sucks to lose. Hence balancing for fun or annoyance are really balancing the same thing.
Singed left 5 minutes into the game, Cait AFK-ed @ fountain.
In my previous game, an ezreal intentionally fed 12 consecutive deaths to a Pantheon.
I still say that besides outright leaving, many, many other offenses should be a first time perma-ban. Account is gone, purchased stuff is gone, no warning, go straight to another community. No decent human being stays in the fountain to trash talk instead of leaving. No decent human being starts feeding from minute 0 in the match.
Well, he was apparently an ideal choice for the Dreamhack qualifiers, since he was a top pick or ban in many of those games.
His early game weakness is extremely easy for a competent team to play around. Most champs are unable to fight Vlad + creeps pre-6, and if someone is playing too aggressive you can just call for a gank. Vlad is an overpowered pubstomper in low ELO, he feels kind of weak in mid ELO because he won't get proper support, and goes back to being overpowered in high-ELO because he'll have a team that CCs his targets and keeps him alive through his mediocre early game.
Still seems pretty strong to me
A caster that gets stronger by having more HP, so he's tough to kill and does good damage, and heals himself
And oh no, if he gets really hurt, he can just puddle away
EDIT - damn servers, so what do you do to counter this guy, so I can put him in his place next time
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
Countering vlad is pretty simple in solo queue. The reason vlad was picked a lot in like the tournament settings is because its premades and they can make up for his weaknesses. Which is namely lack of cc.
IMO the two top picks to counter a vald are:
Morde
Soraka
If you are up agaisnt vlad, and you can play a mean morde, pick morde and ask to lane against vlad. Run Teleport + Ignite. If vlad switches lanes, ask for a lane switch to follow, use your teleport to keep you ahead. Vlad cannot lane against morde, morde eats vlads for breakfast.
Soraka, soraka's main purpose against vlad is to silence vlad when vlad wants to pool. A lot of vlads will ult then trollpool, soraka can silence instantly, leave vlad completely vunerable for 3 seconds, after which he is likely dead. Soraka's ult can prevent vlad from picking up extra kills on allies that escaped the fight but had vlads ult ticking off on them.
Currently vlad is a poor pick in the average solo queue, but really strong in premades.
Three ways:
Burst AP + Ignite: Level 6 Annie is a good example here. If you bait his pool, he's dead. End of story.
Tanky DPS: Shen is a great 1v1 vs. Vlad, actually, and pre-most recent nerf could 1v1 a good Vlad with good itemizations at similar K/D throughout the game.
Junglers: See below.
One of the most important parts of beating Vlad is having red buff. It's not the only way, but it is a gigantic game changer against him as the damage continues while he is pooled and really adds up fast.
WW is one of the best Vlad counters, because he can 1v1 him from 100% to dead without losing any real HP as he rushes out of the jungle with double buffs, and pool isn't enough to escape WW, especially one who saves his ult properly.
I've found Vlads consistently hilariously easy to beat, unless fed by others, as I understand his mechanics to a deep level. If I had advice to give to someone who has never played him before, or only once a while ago, it would be:
a. use ignite
b. use red buff
c. He (usually) only gets one pool, it costs him HP, and he takes DOTs while in it, so work around that.
Play with us. Join the Penny Arcade channel. I'm OnTheLastCastle, I'll play with you after I go drop off my rent check.
any ap caster can do well against him with a catalyst. annie and malzahar can combo him and kill him
tanky champs with philo stones like gragas shouldn't have any trouble
AD carries will probably lose. sending ad carries against any ap carry will lose so that's nothing new.
It's just brutal laning against him
I think I am going to start using Ignite on TF just in general more now though.
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
Soraka with her aura and an Aegis and her heal provides Vlad with a lovely +90ish temporary armour after a pool and constant 30 mr. If he is facing Malz/Annie he grabs a negatron cloak and makes sure not to initiate which makes him wonderfully hard to kill. Granted this is only at 1400-1500 elo, we are bound to hit a ceiling soon enough. It's a great way for us to get some easy wins atm.
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?p=19483941
I typed up a long rant to this but instead tl;dr - Vlad has an amazing lane phase from 7 to whenever team fights start happening and that's why he's good. Everything you listed as an advantage becomes just shy of meaningless for teamfights, where the only thing of real value he brings is the damage boost on his ult.
LoL: failboattootoot