Oh man. Had a nice chat w/ the wife over dinner, asked what she thought of last night's episode after some time to reflect...
book 2/3
...when I mentioned that many denizens of the internet are threatening to leave the series after Ned's execution, she found that ridiculous. The book has been written that way for a long time, she said. Then she drops this lovely nugget: "Plus, I'm sure George makes sure that Joffery gets what's coming to him. I mean, yeah...I guess if he's not brutally murdered within the next season I'll be...pretty upset."
This is going to be so much fun.
...actually, which happens first? RW or Joff's comeuppance?
Red Wedding.
Joffrey's murder was necessary after that. Without Joffrey's death, Storm of Storms would have destroyed my ability to ever care about another human being again.
Oh man. Had a nice chat w/ the wife over dinner, asked what she thought of last night's episode after some time to reflect...
book 2/3
...when I mentioned that many denizens of the internet are threatening to leave the series after Ned's execution, she found that ridiculous. The book has been written that way for a long time, she said. Then she drops this lovely nugget: "Plus, I'm sure George makes sure that Joffery gets what's coming to him. I mean, yeah...I guess if he's not brutally murdered within the next season I'll be...pretty upset."
This is going to be so much fun.
...actually, which happens first? RW or Joff's comeuppance?
massive book 3 spoilers
Joff dies at his own wedding which is after the red wedding (and also after Sansa and Tyrion's wedding)
Shae's characterization in the TV series doesn't match the image of her I had from the books. I think I actually like TV Shae better.
Characterization I like better on the TV show, but lookswise I like my imaginary Shae. Unlike Sean Bean, who was totally different from my imagined Ned Stark but instantly replaced him in my head forever.
also they missed a huge opportunity to ALL BOOK SPOILERS
foreshadow R&L by not doing the tower of joy and promised me ned stuff. the arya and baelor thing, while cool, is not nearly as plot integral as R&L. and as I reread the series, the more I realise how important foreshadowing is. disappointed they took that out. it sort of undercuts all the work GRRM did in interweaving those threads and hints.
Like people have already said it wouldn't have made much sense and it would have been foreshadowing things very far into the future. I'm sure they will find other ways to include the scene later in the series if it is necessary.
And you never know, it may have been removed because it is a complete red herring!
I think it seems pretty obvious that Tywin Lannister knows about Joffreys parentage. He's interested in establishing a "dynasty that will last a thousand years". I suppose that it'll be easy enough to recognize Joffrey as a Lion later on when Robert has been dead a while by just bribing everyone else or killing Roberts family.
I think you are making a bit of a leap here
I am ... like 300 pages into the 3rd book, and I still haven't figured out if Tywin knows about this, let alone what his opinion on it is ... I get a few vague impressions about how he'd deal with it, but it wasn't spelled out or anything.
Book 3 spoiler.
That council scene with Tywin telling Tyrion he has to marry Sansa was golden though ... can't wait to see this resolved.
Oh man. Had a nice chat w/ the wife over dinner, asked what she thought of last night's episode after some time to reflect...
book 2/3
...when I mentioned that many denizens of the internet are threatening to leave the series after Ned's execution, she found that ridiculous. The book has been written that way for a long time, she said. Then she drops this lovely nugget: "Plus, I'm sure George makes sure that Joffery gets what's coming to him. I mean, yeah...I guess if he's not brutally murdered within the next season I'll be...pretty upset."
This is going to be so much fun.
...actually, which happens first? RW or Joff's comeuppance?
Red Wedding.
Joffrey's murder was necessary after that. Without Joffrey's death, Storm of Storms would have destroyed my ability to ever care about another human being again.
Well then...guess I'll need to literally strap her to the couch to make sure she keeps watching for that payoff.
I think it seems pretty obvious that Tywin Lannister knows about Joffreys parentage. He's interested in establishing a "dynasty that will last a thousand years". I suppose that it'll be easy enough to recognize Joffrey as a Lion later on when Robert has been dead a while by just bribing everyone else or killing Roberts family.
I think you are making a bit of a leap here
I am ... like 300 pages into the 3rd book, and I still haven't figured out if Tywin knows about this, let alone what his opinion on it is ... I get a few vague impressions about how he'd deal with it, but it wasn't spelled out or anything.
Book 3 spoiler.
That council scene with Tywin telling Tyrion he has to marry Sansa was golden though ... can't wait to see this resolved.
Pretty sure that so far
Tywin has no idea, especially since Cersei seems to mention on occassion how pissed he'd be if he knew, and very early in the first book Tyrion quips to her "did you think I was as blind as father?"
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
edited June 2011
Yeah I can't imagine he knows.
From Tywin's point of view, he's already won when the series begins. He won when Robert married Cersei. His daughter is queen, his grandson will be king, the kingdom is completely in debt to his house. Then Cersei's spitefulness and lack of impulse control threatens to destroy everything Tywin's worked for. It's hard to imagine he would let that pass if he knew. I'm pretty sure he believes the twincest is all an invention by his political opponents.
I'm going through book 4 now and I have a greater appreciation of the Dorne chapters now that I've gotten a MUCH better handle on all the houses in Westeros and how they interact with each other.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
I'm going through book 4 now and I have a greater appreciation of the Dorne chapters now that I've gotten a MUCH better handle on all the houses in Westeros and how they interact with each other.
Re-reading is so helpful. You would have to have the memory of God to catch everything on a first readthrough.
That and the first time through it's hard to tell what's important and what's not, so I tended to gloss over stuff I thought was just :words: only to find out later it had bearing on the story.
My biggest problem was (and still is, since I am not finished) keeping all the names straight ... GRRM uses a metric fuckton of secondary characters, and it always reads as if you are supposed to know who that is.
I think it seems pretty obvious that Tywin Lannister knows about Joffreys parentage. He's interested in establishing a "dynasty that will last a thousand years". I suppose that it'll be easy enough to recognize Joffrey as a Lion later on when Robert has been dead a while by just bribing everyone else or killing Roberts family.
I think you are making a bit of a leap here
I am ... like 300 pages into the 3rd book, and I still haven't figured out if Tywin knows about this, let alone what his opinion on it is ... I get a few vague impressions about how he'd deal with it, but it wasn't spelled out or anything.
Book 3 spoiler.
That council scene with Tywin telling Tyrion he has to marry Sansa was golden though ... can't wait to see this resolved.
I always felt like the books were fairly blatant about the fact that Tywin didn't know.
I always felt like the books were fairly blatant about the fact that Tywin didn't know.
But the books are also never from Tywin's perspective.
Series spoilers -
I think it could be argued that Tywin's distaste for Jaime's decision to join the Kingsguard is possibly an indication that he at least suspects the truth, though he frames his distaste as being wholly about Jaime's unwillingness to maintain the Lannister name and remain heir to Casterley Rock. I felt like there was something about Jaime's conversation with his... Aunt? in book 4 that suggested things hadn't been so secret, though that may have just been a reflection of Tywin's death allowing the Aunt to speak more freely.
I always felt like the books were fairly blatant about the fact that Tywin didn't know.
But the books are also never from Tywin's perspective.
Series spoilers -
I think it could be argued that Tywin's distaste for Jaime's decision to join the Kingsguard is possibly an indication that he at least suspects the truth, though he frames his distaste as being wholly about Jaime's unwillingness to maintain the Lannister name and remain heir to Casterley Rock. I felt like there was something about Jaime's conversation with his... Aunt? in book 4 that suggested things hadn't been so secret, though that may have just been a reflection of Tywin's death allowing the Aunt to speak more freely.
But
didn't Jaime join the Kingsguard before Cersei went to King's Landing? I don't remember how it all played out, but he was obviously part of the Guard before she married Robert.
I always felt like the books were fairly blatant about the fact that Tywin didn't know.
But the books are also never from Tywin's perspective.
Series spoilers -
I think it could be argued that Tywin's distaste for Jaime's decision to join the Kingsguard is possibly an indication that he at least suspects the truth, though he frames his distaste as being wholly about Jaime's unwillingness to maintain the Lannister name and remain heir to Casterley Rock. I felt like there was something about Jaime's conversation with his... Aunt? in book 4 that suggested things hadn't been so secret, though that may have just been a reflection of Tywin's death allowing the Aunt to speak more freely.
But
didn't Jaime join the Kingsguard before Cersei went to King's Landing? I don't remember how it all played out, but he was obviously part of the Guard before she married Robert.
She was going to go to court to be a lady and learn about the court and stuff (like Ned wanted for Arya) but when Jamie decided to join the Kingsguard, Tywin changed his mind and Cersei stayed in Casterly Rock, or something like that.
I highly suspect Tywin didn't know because he didn't want to know.
I always felt like the books were fairly blatant about the fact that Tywin didn't know.
But the books are also never from Tywin's perspective.
Series spoilers -
I think it could be argued that Tywin's distaste for Jaime's decision to join the Kingsguard is possibly an indication that he at least suspects the truth, though he frames his distaste as being wholly about Jaime's unwillingness to maintain the Lannister name and remain heir to Casterley Rock. I felt like there was something about Jaime's conversation with his... Aunt? in book 4 that suggested things hadn't been so secret, though that may have just been a reflection of Tywin's death allowing the Aunt to speak more freely.
In book 4, Kevan makes it apparent that he knew about it, but again it's implied that Tywin was either unwilling or unable to see the truth.
Ah they were apparently also in the stands at the tournament
I transferred this from the TV Show thread because I didn't want to open up a can of worms that would lead to people who have read the book guessing on something the show (as far as I know) did not announce
Who is the girl at the bottom left of this picture....she is sitting awfully close to the King's children. I am guessing she is Maergery Tyrell? I can't even remember if any other Tyrell's were at the Tournament other than Loras....but looking at the color, and what looks like a flower on her dress, that was my guess. Anyone?
I haven't re-read the series in a couple of years, so I am due to re-read it, and I am fighting the urge to re-read it in preparation of Dance coming out, since then I'll have to wait to read the new book. ARGH!!
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The starks beating the shit out of him and breaking his hands so he can never wield a sword again would be enough for me. And if he publicly admits that Joffrey is his son then I'll even have him over for dinner.
Speaking of Margarey Tyrell, I was wondering...
Major Book 3/4 Spoilers
So, is Margarey involved at all in Jeoffery's poisoning? Because if her grandma did it, wouldn't she have to be forewarned to avoid drinking from Jeoffery's winecup once the poision was introduced? I'll need to reread the scene again, but if she was aware of what might happen... Well, that would be a different aspect of that character.
The starks beating the shit out of him and breaking his hands so he can never wield a sword again would be enough for me. And if he publicly admits that Joffrey is his son then I'll even have him over for dinner.
Yeah but it loses all sense of satisfaction... once he becomes the coolest character in the book.
I always felt like the books were fairly blatant about the fact that Tywin didn't know.
But the books are also never from Tywin's perspective.
Series spoilers -
I think it could be argued that Tywin's distaste for Jaime's decision to join the Kingsguard is possibly an indication that he at least suspects the truth, though he frames his distaste as being wholly about Jaime's unwillingness to maintain the Lannister name and remain heir to Casterley Rock. I felt like there was something about Jaime's conversation with his... Aunt? in book 4 that suggested things hadn't been so secret, though that may have just been a reflection of Tywin's death allowing the Aunt to speak more freely.
But
didn't Jaime join the Kingsguard before Cersei went to King's Landing? I don't remember how it all played out, but he was obviously part of the Guard before she married Robert.
Jaime joined the Kingsguard so he wouldn't get married off and so he could stay near Cersei.
This pissed Tywin off something fierce because Jaime was always his chosen heir.
I just started looking at the map, and I can't figure out why they had to cross at the twins, why not just plan ahead and go around?
That's where Greywater Watch is, which IIRC is kind of boggy and marshy. Plus on the west side of the Neck is a forest, which could be hell to get through quickly. Plus they were in a hurry to make the diversion work.
RE: Looking at the map and asking questions of routes and whatnot -
Honestly, I just don't look at the maps as being particularly useful in terms of solving these questions. In the later books, it always sounds like there are infinitely more large riverways than the map really suggests that completely encumber travel off of the King's Road, though I suppose that's because it's apparently typhoon season from A Storm of Swords > A Feast for Crows. But still, I just don't bother trying to figure out why people travel how they do, and trust that these imaginary people do in fact know their way around an imaginary landscape.
You can't just move an army wherever you want, especially in a medieval setting. The Twins sit on an important trade route, so there are likely roads that lead to the castles and further south.
Fantasy writers tend to be awful at dealing with the logistics of medieval armies. Their armies tend to be too big, too fast and too effective. Throughout most of human history, a significant majority of every army was pretty useless for anything other than terrorizing enemy civilians and MAYBE defending in place. They were poorly trained, poorly organized and tended to fall apart when they ran into real opposition (witness, for example, what typically happened to much larger Persian armies when they ran into smaller, but highly trained Greek units that weren't afraid to actually attack their enemies and fight).
Robb needed to move his army across roads and bridges because if he started taking them through marshes or heavy woods, many of them would just wander off and go back home. It is very difficult to keep a medieval army made up heavily of peasant levies in the field for any significant period of time.
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Joffrey's murder was necessary after that. Without Joffrey's death, Storm of Storms would have destroyed my ability to ever care about another human being again.
massive book 3 spoilers
Like people have already said it wouldn't have made much sense and it would have been foreshadowing things very far into the future. I'm sure they will find other ways to include the scene later in the series if it is necessary.
And you never know, it may have been removed because it is a complete red herring!
I am ... like 300 pages into the 3rd book, and I still haven't figured out if Tywin knows about this, let alone what his opinion on it is ... I get a few vague impressions about how he'd deal with it, but it wasn't spelled out or anything.
Book 3 spoiler.
Well then...guess I'll need to literally strap her to the couch to make sure she keeps watching for that payoff.
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Pretty sure that so far
I'm pretty sure he had about six or seven of them.
Re-reading is so helpful. You would have to have the memory of God to catch everything on a first readthrough.
(It feels so weird to jump mid-series to e-book...)
Just be thankful the series doesn't center around the Freys!
But the books are also never from Tywin's perspective.
Series spoilers -
But
She was going to go to court to be a lady and learn about the court and stuff (like Ned wanted for Arya) but when Jamie decided to join the Kingsguard, Tywin changed his mind and Cersei stayed in Casterly Rock, or something like that.
I highly suspect Tywin didn't know because he didn't want to know.
I transferred this from the TV Show thread because I didn't want to open up a can of worms that would lead to people who have read the book guessing on something the show (as far as I know) did not announce
Who is the girl at the bottom left of this picture....she is sitting awfully close to the King's children. I am guessing she is Maergery Tyrell? I can't even remember if any other Tyrell's were at the Tournament other than Loras....but looking at the color, and what looks like a flower on her dress, that was my guess. Anyone?
I haven't re-read the series in a couple of years, so I am due to re-read it, and I am fighting the urge to re-read it in preparation of Dance coming out, since then I'll have to wait to read the new book. ARGH!!
pretty sure it's just a random extra/lady
Major Book 3/4 Spoilers
This pissed Tywin off something fierce because Jaime was always his chosen heir.
That's where Greywater Watch is, which IIRC is kind of boggy and marshy. Plus on the west side of the Neck is a forest, which could be hell to get through quickly. Plus they were in a hurry to make the diversion work.
It's really terrible terrain, if I recall correctly. Swamps and such. Not good for troop movements.
Please explain in more depth.
As trolly as Fizban often is, it is a legitimate question that people may have been thinking if they don't remember the books very well.
Also not terribly likely to cause arguments.
He may prove me wrong.
Honestly, I just don't look at the maps as being particularly useful in terms of solving these questions. In the later books, it always sounds like there are infinitely more large riverways than the map really suggests that completely encumber travel off of the King's Road, though I suppose that's because it's apparently typhoon season from A Storm of Swords > A Feast for Crows. But still, I just don't bother trying to figure out why people travel how they do, and trust that these imaginary people do in fact know their way around an imaginary landscape.
Fantasy writers tend to be awful at dealing with the logistics of medieval armies. Their armies tend to be too big, too fast and too effective. Throughout most of human history, a significant majority of every army was pretty useless for anything other than terrorizing enemy civilians and MAYBE defending in place. They were poorly trained, poorly organized and tended to fall apart when they ran into real opposition (witness, for example, what typically happened to much larger Persian armies when they ran into smaller, but highly trained Greek units that weren't afraid to actually attack their enemies and fight).
Robb needed to move his army across roads and bridges because if he started taking them through marshes or heavy woods, many of them would just wander off and go back home. It is very difficult to keep a medieval army made up heavily of peasant levies in the field for any significant period of time.
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