Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".
I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.
If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.
Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because
book 4 spoilers
I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.
Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because
book 4 spoilers
I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.
Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because
book 4 spoilers
I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.
On the HBO map ([strike]and I'll confirm the various ones I have[/strike] None of my maps show the eastern continent)
The only Night's Watch castle that opens on the sea is Eastwatch. Which means they have to sail down the eastern side of the continent. Depending on the width of the Narrow Sea, that puts them right on course for Braavos, which is far north of Pentos.
The Septons speech in AFFC gives you a good idea of the kind of ridiculousness inherent in a medieval army.
I only just started reading AFFC. I read the first 3 a while ago.
Around what page is that part? I've heard about it over and over again. I want to know when to expect it.
Anyway, if it takes another 5 years to finish the next book, and another 5 years after that, and if it takes 2 years between each season of the show, the show won't have a lot of downtime.
But if they manage a season every year, or every year and a half, there's going to be maybe year wait between season 6 and book 6. And then like 5 years until they are even able to start a Season 7.
Here's the geography question that's been bothering me as I work through my reread. Where in the fuck is Bravos at? I sure can't find it on any of the maps in the books and it's been bothering me because
book 4 spoilers
I can't figure out why Sam and Aemon end up there on their way to Oldtown. Isn't Bravos across the narrow sea? It's like they're taking some sort of great circle route or something.
On the HBO map ([strike]and I'll confirm the various ones I have[/strike] None of my maps show the eastern continent)
The only Night's Watch castle that opens on the sea is Eastwatch. Which means they have to sail down the eastern side of the continent. Depending on the width of the Narrow Sea, that puts them right on course for Braavos, which is far north of Pentos.
Yeah, I followed that they left Eastwatch and out past Skagos. And I guess if Braavos is in the middle of the apparently aptly named Narrow Sea then that makes sense. For whatever reason I just got the impression they had gone all the way across. At which point my best guess put it near the Isle of Cedars near Slavers Bay because of the mention of wood scarcity due to the Braavosi refusing to cut their natural wind break. But I just went back and skimmed that chapter and it was pines not cedars. So you're probably right.
Oh wow, that helps a lot! With the maps of the north and south split in the books I visualized the south shifted farther west. You can really see how they need to swing out around The Fingers in that one putting Braavos right in their path. Thank you.
Sea travel is more difficult during Autumn, and they intended to go all the way to Oldtown. More dangerous travel, so less ships are going to be plying their trade.
Each Free City dwarfs King's Landing (the largest city in the Seven Kingdoms), so it stands to reason if they intended to book a ship for that long of a voyage their best shot at finding a ship going that way would be in a Free City, and Braavos was the closest.
Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".
I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.
If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.
I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remembered how those turn out.
Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.
Just finished my first read-through on AFFC and I have a question.
The Pate guy Sam was talking to in the last chapter, Faceless Man yes?
Also had a little laugh when I read the bit at the end where GRRM says to look out for Dance next year, and the note is dated 2005.
And by 'laugh', you mean 'cry'.
also yes, re-read the prologue
@Hachface - yeah. It's not a popular opinion, so I try to avoid airing it. There's no evidence supporting my opinion, and plenty supporting the popular.
Are there any paperback versions besides what's included in the amazon.com 4-set? I just got it in for 15 bucks and it's in the shitty mass market small paperback book version. With the paper that's all grayed out, feels like sandpaper.
So even though I knew it was coming, and expected the huge reaction from episode 9, how do you guys think this will affect future seasons of the show? There is a reason shows don't do this kind of thing. I know season 2 is definitely happening, but do you think this will affect whether or not there is a season 3 by hemorrhaging viewers?
Funny you should ask. I just watched ep. 9 with my wife, and it turned her off the series. She's going to watch the season finale, but I'll likely be watching any subsequent seasons alone.
Her complaint, and I think it will likely be a common one among many casual viewers, is that she had grown to really like Ned, despite his faults, and didn't like how he died. She's afraid that this will set the tone for the series going forward, and she's not particularly interested in getting pissed off on a regular basis.
I'll be curious to see what ratings are like next year. I think that a lot of viewers who haven't read the books are likely to drift away from this show.
I've had friends who have felt that way from the books as well. It's entirely possible. I think it will possibly make up for it by appealing to the people that don't want to read the books, but still like the story/characters/presentation and so on.
I know a lot of people who said they would give up reading the series, and I myself felt like quitting after
I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remembered how those turn out.
Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.
Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".
I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.
If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.
not a supporter huh?
sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
I think a lot will be answered when Barristan is a POV character. When he said he had a bunch of stuff to tell Dany; if Jon Snow is her nephew, that would be the first thing to say. Plus he would have to know; half the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.
I'm sure it is. And then I think on all the other "givens" we expected, and remembered how those turn out.
Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.
Not really. Sometimes things just happen.
What "just happened"?
All the major "twists" or "suprises" of the series are hinted or telegraphed or the like. That's what makes it work. It's surprising, but it still makes perfect sense.
So even though I knew it was coming, and expected the huge reaction from episode 9, how do you guys think this will affect future seasons of the show? There is a reason shows don't do this kind of thing. I know season 2 is definitely happening, but do you think this will affect whether or not there is a season 3 by hemorrhaging viewers?
Funny you should ask. I just watched ep. 9 with my wife, and it turned her off the series. She's going to watch the season finale, but I'll likely be watching any subsequent seasons alone.
Her complaint, and I think it will likely be a common one among many casual viewers, is that she had grown to really like Ned, despite his faults, and didn't like how he died. She's afraid that this will set the tone for the series going forward, and she's not particularly interested in getting pissed off on a regular basis.
I'll be curious to see what ratings are like next year. I think that a lot of viewers who haven't read the books are likely to drift away from this show.
I've had friends who have felt that way from the books as well. It's entirely possible. I think it will possibly make up for it by appealing to the people that don't want to read the books, but still like the story/characters/presentation and so on.
I know a lot of people who said they would give up reading the series, and I myself felt like quitting after
the Red Wedding
, but they all came back. They always come back.
The only part that really had me about to give up on the series as a whole was:
The part where you're led to believe Theon had killed Bran & Rickon. Yeah, I know, you didn't see it actually happen so chances are it didn't etc... But with how much Martin had been shitting on the Starks up to that point it was still enough to invoke the nerdrage.
The only part that really had me about to give up on the series as a whole was:
The part where you're led to believe Theon had killed Bran & Rickon. Yeah, I know, you didn't see it actually happen so chances are it didn't etc... But with how much Martin had been shitting on the Starks up to that point it was still enough to invoke the nerdrage.
I find Rickon's situation to be the saddest in the book. Maybe it's because I have a son around the same age, but it's really heartbreaking to see a kid that age go through the trauma he's experienced.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I get that power is about who holds it. And on top of that that the Lannisters have had the power since the beginning of the series.
Doesn't mean that they aren't all traitors for going against the king's decree / law.
As Littlefinger said, it's only treason if you lose. The United States was founded by traitors, after all.
Westeros' political system is inherently unstable, and Robert Baratheon was only on the throne because his house committed treason against the previous king.
Which is what makes Ned's fervent desire to maintain the technically legal line of sucession so odd. It's not like putting Renly on the throne versus Stannis or setting himself up as the de facto ruler would have been a blow to some ancient and established status quo. The Baratheon dynasty was 19 years old and had no particular claim to the throne, other than the fact that Robert was really good at war. Ned didn't have much of a problem overthrowing the existing order once, when it became clear that doing so was what was best for the realm. I never really understood why he all of a sudden had a hard on for the status quo.
The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.
I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.
Wow. It's amazing to see the TV thread start treading close to some of the theories that are out there, especially since the hints were left out of the show.
Someone threw out the possibility of Shae as an unknown Targ due to the candle scene. That is of course ridiculous, but the very next post said that she also fit the description of Jon's mother and how that would be a great reason for Ned to refuse telling Robert about her. Can't tell if it's a secret bookite trying to be mega clever, but if not...interesting to see them getting somewhat close via a completely different path.
I get that power is about who holds it. And on top of that that the Lannisters have had the power since the beginning of the series.
Doesn't mean that they aren't all traitors for going against the king's decree / law.
[/I]As Littlefinger said, it's only treason if you lose. The United States was founded by traitors, after all.
Westeros' political system is inherently unstable, and Robert Baratheon was only on the throne because his house committed treason against the previous king.
Which is what makes Ned's fervent desire to maintain the technically legal line of sucession so odd. It's not like putting Renly on the throne versus Stannis or setting himself up as the de facto ruler would have been a blow to some ancient and established status quo. The Baratheon dynasty was 19 years old and had no particular claim to the throne, other than the fact that Robert was really good at war. Ned didn't have much of a problem overthrowing the existing order once, when it became clear that doing so was what was best for the realm. I never really understood why he all of a sudden had a hard on for the status quo.
The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.
I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.
I think Ned was also haunted by the brutality during the sacking of King's Landing, and that the events of Robert's Rebellion soured him on the notion of right by conquest.
Didn't Ned support Robert because he was the eldest Baratheon and that family had the most Targaryen blood out of the major houses? I wonder if Ned would have supported Rhaegar and tried to end the rebellion if Jaime had acted sooner in taking out Aerys.
Ned didn't push for Viserys to take the throne as the next Targaryen in line, which is a fatal flaw in his Baratheon royal blood ties reasoning. I must be remembering it wrong.
I get that power is about who holds it. And on top of that that the Lannisters have had the power since the beginning of the series.
Doesn't mean that they aren't all traitors for going against the king's decree / law.
As Littlefinger said, it's only treason if you lose. The United States was founded by traitors, after all.
Westeros' political system is inherently unstable, and Robert Baratheon was only on the throne because his house committed treason against the previous king.
Which is what makes Ned's fervent desire to maintain the technically legal line of sucession so odd. It's not like putting Renly on the throne versus Stannis or setting himself up as the de facto ruler would have been a blow to some ancient and established status quo. The Baratheon dynasty was 19 years old and had no particular claim to the throne, other than the fact that Robert was really good at war. Ned didn't have much of a problem overthrowing the existing order once, when it became clear that doing so was what was best for the realm. I never really understood why he all of a sudden had a hard on for the status quo.
The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.
I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.
Robert was in love with and betrothed to Ned's sister. Rhaegar ran off with her, Brandon demanded her return so Arys killed Brandon and Rickard. Robert was just as ready to go to war as Ned was but Robert was more impulsive and raised as a leader, Ned was raised to serve his brother.
Long story short, it was called Roberts rebellion because Robert was doing it with or without Ned and Robert was going for the throne, Ned just wanted justice.
Part of me is depressed that, on the game of thrones website, in the family tree section
The name Ned gives as the mother of Jon is in airquotes, "Wylla".
I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.
If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.
not a supporter huh?
sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
I think a lot will be answered when Barristan is a POV character. When he said he had a bunch of stuff to tell Dany; if Jon Snow is her nephew, that would be the first thing to say. Plus he would have to know; half the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy.
The thing is, Barristan probably doesn't know the whole story. He may know that a baby was coming (I still think R+L were married...otherwise who has the authority to make Jon a legitimate heir?)...but I don't think he can be SURE that the bastard Ned claimed was actually born in the Tower of Joy.
Posts
I don't have any issues with the R+L theory (but I'm not really a supporter). It's just slightly annoying that, without any evidence presented in the show, they make it look and sound like the name given is a lie.
If the site changes the relationships / status (living / dead), then it'd be interesting for it to have changed once evidence is brought in.
book 4 spoilers
Pretty sure it is really close to The Wall.
On the HBO map ([strike]and I'll confirm the various ones I have[/strike] None of my maps show the eastern continent)
I only just started reading AFFC. I read the first 3 a while ago.
Around what page is that part? I've heard about it over and over again. I want to know when to expect it.
Anyway, if it takes another 5 years to finish the next book, and another 5 years after that, and if it takes 2 years between each season of the show, the show won't have a lot of downtime.
But if they manage a season every year, or every year and a half, there's going to be maybe year wait between season 6 and book 6. And then like 5 years until they are even able to start a Season 7.
The 5 / 6 year delays only started with AFFC.
There's a decent chance the remaining books will fall back into the two year cycle.
Which puts us at 2014 or so for the The Winds of Winter (and Storm of Swords on TV), then 2016 for A Dream of Spring (with ADWD airing).
edit: I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong with the math there. But I'm tired.
I want to say that they were blown off course during the events of AFFC, and ended up close enough to have no other choices.
Each Free City dwarfs King's Landing (the largest city in the Seven Kingdoms), so it stands to reason if they intended to book a ship for that long of a voyage their best shot at finding a ship going that way would be in a Free City, and Braavos was the closest.
not a supporter huh?
sheesh, its pretty much a given at this point.
edit: let me say, I won't be surprised in the slightest if it's true.
Also had a little laugh when I read the bit at the end where GRRM says to look out for Dance next year, and the note is dated 2005.
Actually, when Martin heavily foreshadows something, it tends to pay off. Despite all the praise/scorn Martin gets for being willing to kill any character, major events are always built up and are always totally logical.
And by 'laugh', you mean 'cry'.
@Hachface - yeah. It's not a popular opinion, so I try to avoid airing it. There's no evidence supporting my opinion, and plenty supporting the popular.
I'm looking on all this with maniacal glee.
I know a lot of people who said they would give up reading the series, and I myself felt like quitting after
Not really. Sometimes things just happen.
What "just happened"?
All the major "twists" or "suprises" of the series are hinted or telegraphed or the like. That's what makes it work. It's surprising, but it still makes perfect sense.
The only part that really had me about to give up on the series as a whole was:
Rigorous Scholarship
The key difference here that hasn't really been touched on in the show is that he didn't join Robert's Rebellion, Robert (and Jon Arryn) started the rebellion pretty much for Ned. After Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard, he demanded that Ned be sent to him and Jon and Robert said "fuck that" and thats how the revolution started.
I guess Robert was the de facto leader since he was so charasmatic but I'd always understood that it was called "Robert's Rebellion" simply because he ended up being King through his distant ancestral links to the Targaryen line.
twit feed
I think Ned was also haunted by the brutality during the sacking of King's Landing, and that the events of Robert's Rebellion soured him on the notion of right by conquest.
Ned didn't push for Viserys to take the throne as the next Targaryen in line, which is a fatal flaw in his Baratheon royal blood ties reasoning. I must be remembering it wrong.
Robert was in love with and betrothed to Ned's sister. Rhaegar ran off with her, Brandon demanded her return so Arys killed Brandon and Rickard. Robert was just as ready to go to war as Ned was but Robert was more impulsive and raised as a leader, Ned was raised to serve his brother.
Long story short, it was called Roberts rebellion because Robert was doing it with or without Ned and Robert was going for the throne, Ned just wanted justice.