For better or worse, Westeros needs to get invaded pretty damn quick for everyone's sake. Nobody currently on the continent is prepared for what's coming.
That is basically how I imagine it happening, Wall and all the north gets slaughtered by the others, dragons swoop in with Dany who slaughter everyone and then magic horn man kills them all.
Honestly can't imagine a good ending for this book.
No king could be effective without skill in Westerosi realpolitik. Ned wouldn't have lasted long.
Stannis on the other hand realizes what a snake pit the court is and plans accordingly. And he can be ruthless when needed to. I don't think he would make a GREAT king, but with a moderating influence like Davos for example, a decent one at the very least. And a lot more fair one then many others.
Robert realized it too, he was just really bitter and ambivalent about it. None of the Baratheons are really as balls-out stupid about it as Ned was.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
A huge challenge to write the big battle? Or a huge challenge to write a plausible way around having to show the battle?
He meant that
Huge challenge to write the big building in a way that can be filmed. The episode in question is titled "Blackwater" so one would expect we'd see the battle thereof.
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Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Ned might have been naive and foolish, but he's such a good and honest man that I can't bear to hear the slightest insult about him (look at me talking like he's a real person). He was a veteran of war and wanted things to be right, that's all.
Anyway, I'm almost done with Book 1 (so mind spoilers please) and it's
almost satirical how much more evil Joffrey is here than in the show. I thought he was bad there, but there's shit he does in the book that is blowing me away. Killing a woman who loved a traitor, making people duel to the death for rights to land? Oh my god. And the guy who sang the song about Robert...
Is anyone else expecting the Red Wedding to be a disappointment in the show compared to how it was presented in the novel? I mean, it was just SO well done in the books that I can't imagine any director pulling it off the way I see it in my head.
If they don't have a bard singing that creepy fucking song while they butcher the Stark bannermen and Walder Frey sits and watches, it won't even compare.
I think the best way to do it would be to have the first bits happening in the periphery whilst the feasting and wedding music goes on, with the main characters suddenly realising that something is happening but not sure what, then we see that someone we know has been stabbed and then drama starts as they try to fight their way out.
So it's not instantly obvious to the viewer what's happening until it's too late, but if you see it again you realise that it starts a minute or so before you thought it did.
Stannis is a lot more flexible than the people in the books give him credit for. He even tells a story about it at one point. He's been doing things one way his whole life and he's been shit on for it. Now he's changing. He's the only one of the potential Kings
that went North to the wall when he was alerted to the danger,
a fact that earns him a lot of points in my ledger.
It's moot, however. It seems pretty inevitable that Stannis will fall as the false dragon when the White Walkers start marching.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
The fact that Stannis is Lawful Neutral and so churlish about everything gives him negative one million points in my book.
I'm really worried about how the show is going to show the battles. I mean they changed the story so that they could avoid showing the battle of the green fork, and that would have been relatively easy. How the heck are they going to do the battle of the blackwater or the stuff that goes on in slaver's bay if they shy away from that little thing?
spoilering for further book details...
I'm not so much worried about Slavers Bay, because even the books really didn't show much of the actual battles...more little bits and pieces, then Dany sitting on some new throne. But the Blackwater worries me greatly. That MUST be a full-on epic battle, with great SFX and whatnot. I can give them a pass w/ the Green Fork and Whispering Wood because there was still just so much to do and say and characters to build upon and tension to build and all that...spending time on a battle, in the context of that episode, wasn't absolutely necessary. But by the time we get to the Blackwater it's all about full-on war.
GRRM himself is going to write episode 8 of season 2, and he implied in an interview that there is a huge battle in that episode that is a big challenge to write. So we'll see!
I think that this is fitting -
in one of his interviews GRRM stated that one of his main reasons for writing this series was because he would not be contrained by a budget - he was tired of writing scripts, they would tell him they wanted a war - he would write a war, then they would come back and say that it would cost too much, so let's just make it a battle, oh that's too expensive, let's just make it a skirmish, so it went from an Army, to a Batallion to like 10 dudes fighting. Especially so when you are talking cavalry. I personally would rather have them not show the fight, then to watch a small scale version of it, or poorly done CGI.
Also having GRRM write it for TV - HE's the one who has to make the cuts to fit it into budget, so he can't complain that they cut stuff. I have a prediction for this, it's going to be a bunch of CG's ships from far away, and then close up stuff where you can't see the background.
Reverend_Chaos on
“Think of me like Yoda, but instead of being little and green I wear suits and I'm awesome. I'm your bro—I'm Broda!”
I personally think Stannis would have made a pretty good King.
I don't mind the way they filmed the Whispering Wood, since it also happened kind of offscreen in the books. But I agree for the
battle of the Blackwater I wanna see some epic shit, like they did with Philippi in Rome. I especially want to see the bridge of ships, that was my favorite part of that battle.
This interview with DnD (WARNING: TV and Book Spoilers) is very interesting...and a little worrisome. A lot of it has to do w/ the challenges they're facing for season 2, with some specific mentions that has me thinking of a forum discussion that I saw linked to on westeros.org...
Wide ranging book and TV spoilers, with possible TV theories...
The discussion was in regards to a clip from next week's preview that shows Robb hacking away at something. The poster believes it was too small a cut to be a head, and his theory is that Robb is chopping of Jaime's hand. He also thinks that DnD & HBO would have known that people are going to want vengeance against the Lannisters after last week.
We also still have the mystery death, which I know most people think is Hoster...but he doesn't really seem to be on the show's mind at all. I'm starting to wonder, w/ the comments DnD made in that interview about keeping some characters more front and center in season 2 than they originally were, if the mystery 'death' is actually Jaime's sword hand.
This...I don't know how I would feel about it. I do trust DnD, they've earned it by knocking season 1 out of the park, they're working w/ GRRM on all of this as well, they know and love the books. And it would be kind of neat if the TV show itself could have some surprising twists and turns for book readers as well as the newbies. But what happens if/when they go too far? Some pieces of these books are practically sacred, and every major change to the story is going to have a big ripple effect on future seasons. But the books get increasingly complex and massive, so I could definitely see them cutting out something like the bloody mummers. And I'll bet there will be more.
Could all be wild guesswork and completely off base, but I do sort of feel like there's a surprise lurking for all of us in the next episode.
None of the Baratheons are really as balls-out stupid about it as Ned was.
Eh. Renly was kind of a joke.
Renly was doing pretty well. He would have been a major player in the civil war if it wasn't for Melisandre's abilities, which no one could have known existed.
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Rigorous Scholarship
Renly did not take war seriously, he treated the whole thing like a game.
His whole "let me march slowly while I have feasts and tournaments every day" is all you need to know about him. Had he become King he would beggar the realm faster than Robert, everything was a game to him and even being King was just another way to amuse himself.
Shouldn't a lot of this stuff be in spoiler tags? Flat out saying who kills who is not really cool for people just starting the series.
Alucard6986 on
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
book 2
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
What happens to Loras? I'm reading book 4, but I read 1-2-3 a while ago, and I just can't for the life of me remember what the hell happened.
Also, anyone else concerned that the series will catch up to the books years before book 7 is finished?
Finally, didn't the TV show makers discuss that they wanted to kill someone off early? I assume that just isn't going to happen. I mean, I don't know who the hell they have time to kill and make it worth it or matter...
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
In all honesty, that's not that bad a strategy.
I beg to differ, history is full of examples where smaller forces with superior tactics bested larger forces.
Sure, superior numbers are great, but it doesn't guarantee victory.
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
In all honesty, that's not that bad a strategy.
It wasn't that much bigger. And I remember getting the distinct impression that his army was just not... not ready for war. They were all young people bred on stories of war and valor. He had a huge army who all loved Renly, but they weren't soldiers like they'd be facing from...
Well, on that thought, who had the "real" soldiers? The North, I guess.
Stannis was an amazing tactician, however.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
What happens to Loras? I'm reading book 4, but I read 1-2-3 a while ago, and I just can't for the life of me remember what the hell happened.
books 2, 3, and 4
Shortly after Renly's death, House Tyrell declares for Joffrey, just in time for the Tyrell host to unite with Tywin's against Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater. Loras takes part in this battle, wearing Renly's armor. The superstitious believe he is Renly's ghost visiting vengeance upon his brother.
After the battle is done, Loras joins Joffrey's Kingsguard, partially so that he can be in a position to protect his sister, Margaery, and partially so that he can avoid ever having to marry a woman.
After Joffrey dies, Loras and Margaery start to successfully charm Tommen, which makes Cersei furious; she forbids Tommen from getting arms training from Loras.
When the ironmen lay siege to Dragonstone, Loras leads the charge to reclaim the fortress for the crown. He is successful in doing so, but it was reported to Queen Cersei that he suffered grievous, disfiguring injuries from having boiling oil poured on him during the siege. Since nothing that Cersei hears toward the end of book 4 is reliable, we don't really know what happened to Loras.
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
What happens to Loras? I'm reading book 4, but I read 1-2-3 a while ago, and I just can't for the life of me remember what the hell happened.
books 2, 3, and 4
Shortly after Renly's death, House Tyrell declares for Joffrey, just in time for the Tyrell host to unite with Tywin's against Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater. Loras takes part in this battle, wearing Renly's armor. The superstitious believe he is Renly's ghost visiting vengeance upon his brother.
After the battle is done, Loras joins Joffrey's Kingsguard, partially so that he can be in a position to protect his sister, Margaery, and partially so that he can avoid ever having to marry a woman.
After Joffrey dies, Loras and Margaery start to successfully charm Tommen, which makes Cersei furious; she forbids Tommen from getting arms training from Loras.
When the ironmen lay siege to Dragonstone, Loras leads the charge to reclaim the fortress for the crown. He is successful in doing so, but it was reported to Queen Cersei that he suffered grievous, disfiguring injuries from having boiling oil poured on him during the siege. Since nothing that Cersei hears toward the end of book 4 is reliable, we don't really know what happened to Loras.
Minor correction, it was Garlan that wore Renly's armor, since Renly is very tall and the armor wouldn't fit Loras.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
Well damn.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
Hahahaha
A) My brother's reaction to book 3, serious double dog spoilers:
"Robb and Catelyn dead? WTF?! I hate this book"
Me: Hahahahahhaha welcome to my pain.
He also jumped forward to make sure Arya wasn't dead
Theories about Sansa from the TV thread are amazing to me.
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
In all honesty, that's not that bad a strategy.
It wasn't that much bigger. And I remember getting the distinct impression that his army was just not... not ready for war. They were all young people bred on stories of war and valor. He had a huge army who all loved Renly, but they weren't soldiers like they'd be facing from...
Well, on that thought, who had the "real" soldiers? The North, I guess.
Stannis was an amazing tactician, however.
No medieval army is really ready for war, they're peasant levies. Had
Renly lived and kept his host going, it seems likely that Bolton would have reevaluated turning on Rob, and Tywin would have absolutely no chance of keeping King's Landing from being sacked
I think Sansa has lost a lot in the tv show by not having Jeyne Poole to talk to. They were the only scenes we really got to see Sansa being herself, and those were the parts where you really got to see how she was a naive little girl. In the show the closest thing she has to a friend is Septa Mordane, and that hasn't painted her in a positive light at all.
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
What happens to Loras? I'm reading book 4, but I read 1-2-3 a while ago, and I just can't for the life of me remember what the hell happened.
books 2, 3, and 4
Shortly after Renly's death, House Tyrell declares for Joffrey, just in time for the Tyrell host to unite with Tywin's against Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater. Loras takes part in this battle, wearing Renly's armor. The superstitious believe he is Renly's ghost visiting vengeance upon his brother.
After the battle is done, Loras joins Joffrey's Kingsguard, partially so that he can be in a position to protect his sister, Margaery, and partially so that he can avoid ever having to marry a woman.
After Joffrey dies, Loras and Margaery start to successfully charm Tommen, which makes Cersei furious; she forbids Tommen from getting arms training from Loras.
When the ironmen lay siege to Dragonstone, Loras leads the charge to reclaim the fortress for the crown. He is successful in doing so, but it was reported to Queen Cersei that he suffered grievous, disfiguring injuries from having boiling oil poured on him during the siege. Since nothing that Cersei hears toward the end of book 4 is reliable, we don't really know what happened to Loras.
One detail you missed: (AFFC)
Cersei is told Dragonstone is taken on page 529, Jaime starts to take Riverrun on page 573, but on page 618, an Alayne chapter, someone says that Riverrun has yielded, but Dragonstone remains. The question remains whether the chapters are in chronological order, but I think it's safe to assume Loras grew a brain. Page count may vary; my book is a huge paperback UK edition.
I think Sansa has lost a lot in the tv show by not having Jeyne Poole to talk to. They were the only scenes we really got to see Sansa being herself, and those were the parts where you really got to see how she was a naive little girl. In the show the closest thing she has to a friend is Septa Mordane, and that hasn't painted her in a positive light at all.
I think that Jeyne makes Sansa even more unlikeable though, which the tv series is actively trying to flatten out for all characters.
Jeyne and Sansa calling Arya "Arya Horseface" and so forth just further shows that Sansa should be slapped until the stupid falls out.
I love the ideas from the tv thread like
"Sansa is going to have an easy time now. She and the Lannisters are basically like family now.
I think Sansa has lost a lot in the tv show by not having Jeyne Poole to talk to. They were the only scenes we really got to see Sansa being herself, and those were the parts where you really got to see how she was a naive little girl. In the show the closest thing she has to a friend is Septa Mordane, and that hasn't painted her in a positive light at all.
I think that Jeyne makes Sansa even more unlikeable though, which the tv series is actively trying to flatten out for all characters.
Jeyne and Sansa calling Arya "Arya Horseface" and so forth just further shows that Sansa should be slapped until the stupid falls out.
I love the ideas from the tv thread like
"Sansa is going to have an easy time now. She and the Lannisters are basically like family now.
I had trouble believing when I read that. It has a shred of truth, they won't fuck her up too badly while they have any hope of reaching a peace with the Starks.....but the guy who everybody obeys just had her father brutally killed in front of her as a "surprise".
A lot of viewers in the HBO thread are watching the show as if it's Married with children. Don't post there though, because no matter what you say it will be spoilers even if it's been said 20 times in the series so far.
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
A lot of viewers in the HBO thread are watching the show as if it's Married with children. Don't post there though, because no matter what you say it will be spoilers even if it's been said 20 times in the series so far.
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Honestly can't imagine a good ending for this book.
Stannis on the other hand realizes what a snake pit the court is and plans accordingly. And he can be ruthless when needed to. I don't think he would make a GREAT king, but with a moderating influence like Davos for example, a decent one at the very least. And a lot more fair one then many others.
Robert realized it too, he was just really bitter and ambivalent about it. None of the Baratheons are really as balls-out stupid about it as Ned was.
Eh. Renly was kind of a joke.
He meant that
Anyway, I'm almost done with Book 1 (so mind spoilers please) and it's
So it's not instantly obvious to the viewer what's happening until it's too late, but if you see it again you realise that it starts a minute or so before you thought it did.
It's moot, however. It seems pretty inevitable that Stannis will fall as the false dragon when the White Walkers start marching.
I think that this is fitting -
Also having GRRM write it for TV - HE's the one who has to make the cuts to fit it into budget, so he can't complain that they cut stuff. I have a prediction for this, it's going to be a bunch of CG's ships from far away, and then close up stuff where you can't see the background.
I don't mind the way they filmed the Whispering Wood, since it also happened kind of offscreen in the books. But I agree for the
This interview with DnD (WARNING: TV and Book Spoilers) is very interesting...and a little worrisome. A lot of it has to do w/ the challenges they're facing for season 2, with some specific mentions that has me thinking of a forum discussion that I saw linked to on westeros.org...
Wide ranging book and TV spoilers, with possible TV theories...
We also still have the mystery death, which I know most people think is Hoster...but he doesn't really seem to be on the show's mind at all. I'm starting to wonder, w/ the comments DnD made in that interview about keeping some characters more front and center in season 2 than they originally were, if the mystery 'death' is actually Jaime's sword hand.
This...I don't know how I would feel about it. I do trust DnD, they've earned it by knocking season 1 out of the park, they're working w/ GRRM on all of this as well, they know and love the books. And it would be kind of neat if the TV show itself could have some surprising twists and turns for book readers as well as the newbies. But what happens if/when they go too far? Some pieces of these books are practically sacred, and every major change to the story is going to have a big ripple effect on future seasons. But the books get increasingly complex and massive, so I could definitely see them cutting out something like the bloody mummers. And I'll bet there will be more.
Could all be wild guesswork and completely off base, but I do sort of feel like there's a surprise lurking for all of us in the next episode.
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Rigorous Scholarship
His whole "let me march slowly while I have feasts and tournaments every day" is all you need to know about him. Had he become King he would beggar the realm faster than Robert, everything was a game to him and even being King was just another way to amuse himself.
What happens to Loras? I'm reading book 4, but I read 1-2-3 a while ago, and I just can't for the life of me remember what the hell happened.
Also, anyone else concerned that the series will catch up to the books years before book 7 is finished?
Finally, didn't the TV show makers discuss that they wanted to kill someone off early? I assume that just isn't going to happen. I mean, I don't know who the hell they have time to kill and make it worth it or matter...
I beg to differ, history is full of examples where smaller forces with superior tactics bested larger forces.
Sure, superior numbers are great, but it doesn't guarantee victory.
Well, on that thought, who had the "real" soldiers? The North, I guess.
Stannis was an amazing tactician, however.
books 2, 3, and 4
After the battle is done, Loras joins Joffrey's Kingsguard, partially so that he can be in a position to protect his sister, Margaery, and partially so that he can avoid ever having to marry a woman.
After Joffrey dies, Loras and Margaery start to successfully charm Tommen, which makes Cersei furious; she forbids Tommen from getting arms training from Loras.
When the ironmen lay siege to Dragonstone, Loras leads the charge to reclaim the fortress for the crown. He is successful in doing so, but it was reported to Queen Cersei that he suffered grievous, disfiguring injuries from having boiling oil poured on him during the siege. Since nothing that Cersei hears toward the end of book 4 is reliable, we don't really know what happened to Loras.
A) My brother's reaction to book 3, serious double dog spoilers:
Me: Hahahahahhaha welcome to my pain.
He also jumped forward to make sure Arya wasn't dead
No medieval army is really ready for war, they're peasant levies. Had
1 by GRRM and 4 by Sanderson.
I think that Jeyne makes Sansa even more unlikeable though, which the tv series is actively trying to flatten out for all characters.
Jeyne and Sansa calling Arya "Arya Horseface" and so forth just further shows that Sansa should be slapped until the stupid falls out.
I love the ideas from the tv thread like
I had trouble believing when I read that. It has a shred of truth, they won't fuck her up too badly while they have any hope of reaching a peace with the Starks.....but the guy who everybody obeys just had her father brutally killed in front of her as a "surprise".
I don't know what this means.