There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
In all honesty, that's not that bad a strategy.
It wasn't that much bigger. And I remember getting the distinct impression that his army was just not... not ready for war. They were all young people bred on stories of war and valor. He had a huge army who all loved Renly, but they weren't soldiers like they'd be facing from...
Well, on that thought, who had the "real" soldiers? The North, I guess.
Stannis was an amazing tactician, however.
No medieval army is really ready for war, they're peasant levies. Had
Renly lived and kept his host going, it seems likely that Bolton would have reevaluated turning on Rob, and Tywin would have absolutely no chance of keeping King's Landing from being sacked
Doesn't someone in the books explicitly praise Renly's taking his time? Tyrion? The longer he waited the more likely Tywin and Robbs army would bleed each other to death and the worse the food situation in Kings Landing becomes (since Renly's army is blocking the food supply). The longer he waits the worse off his opponents will be facing his well rested army. Plus of course he wants to see Stannis make his play and react to that.
A lot of viewers in the HBO thread are watching the show as if it's Married with children. Don't post there though, because no matter what you say it will be spoilers even if it's been said 20 times in the series so far.
I don't know what this means.
That the memory goes back a couple of episodes if that at best. The show is closer to Lost than to a sitcom with regard to the involvement required by the viewer.
zeeny on
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
Bizarre, are there any HBO shows like this or does the rest of the world just get the cream of the crop? I thought everything they do is pretty much a long serial narrative rather than episodes. Perhaps the Sopranos, but then I never managed to watch that properly?
[edit]Wow. Didn't realise how much they did, and that the current format for what we think of as HBO shows is so recent.
any other HBO shows like what, I'm having some trouble parsing exactly what your question is
If I think HBO show, I'm thinking of the 45 min to an hour long episode that is part of a story told over the course of a series, rather than the more traditional sitcom/cop-show style of having discrete stories all within the same setting.
The Wire vs Law and Order, etc.
With that in mind, it seems odd that you'd expect the latter from Game of Thrones, when everything they have done so far is a story told over a series, rather than a set of stories told in a setting. Then again they've done really well in their international marketing, to the point that I was going to include Dexter in this example - but this does really just reinforce my point (at least as an international viewer), HBO is synonymous with a certain type of show.
Not to anyone who actually knew what the series was, though apparently I'm really not paying attention as I thought it said Forums rather than Thread (but then I've not seen this apparent short memory in the other thread that much, but then we have established that I am largely oblivious to goings on).
As an aside, I think that On Demand viewing is a real boon to stories like this. Certainly makes it easier for people to get excited and catch up in a story rather than having the problem with bringing new viewers into a series half way through. On the otherhand, I've read far more Sword of Truth books than I wanted to because I'd started the series, so perhaps it's not all good.
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
In all honesty, that's not that bad a strategy.
It wasn't that much bigger. And I remember getting the distinct impression that his army was just not... not ready for war. They were all young people bred on stories of war and valor. He had a huge army who all loved Renly, but they weren't soldiers like they'd be facing from...
Well, on that thought, who had the "real" soldiers? The North, I guess.
Stannis was an amazing tactician, however.
No medieval army is really ready for war, they're peasant levies. Had
Renly lived and kept his host going, it seems likely that Bolton would have reevaluated turning on Rob, and Tywin would have absolutely no chance of keeping King's Landing from being sacked
When you have the largest army in a conflict, you force others to react to you. Renly had no reason to rush or take the initiative, since there was no pressing need for him to commit to the conflict while the other factions were beating the crap out of each other. Strategically, he was in a very good position.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
The trick is to work out which words I've left out and not noticed because I can't fast enough, unfortunately when I read the sentences back I still remember what I'd originally intended to write, which makes spotting the fact I've only written half of it more complicated than it should be.
Sorry. Hopefully the previous posts will be edited to make more sense.
And "Type" was left out on purpose.
To summarise the madness above.
I thought the original post by you (Zeeny) was talking about HBO's official forums, rather than the thread on PA.
Thus I was confused why people who were unaware of the series, but knew of the show on HBO, would be expecting a series focused on individual episodes rather than one long story told over the course of the series/season when that is what HBO is known for.
The trick is to work out which words I've left out and not noticed because I can't fast enough, unfortunately when I read the sentences back I still remember what I'd originally intended to write, which makes spotting the fact I've only written half of it more complicated than it should be.
Sorry. Hopefully the previous posts will be edited to make more sense.
And "Type" was left out on purpose.
To summarise the madness above.
I thought the original post by you (Zeeny) was talking about HBO's official forums, rather than the thread on PA.
Thus I was confused why people who were unaware of the series, but knew of the show on HBO, would be expecting a series focused on individual episodes rather than one long story told over the course of the series/season when that is what HBO is known for.
Aaaaaaaaaah. I was just being snarky to the HBO thread we have on here.
There was nobody in Renly's camp who was remotely as capable of a strategist as Tywin, Stannis, or the Blackfish. The entire campaign was Renly's vanity project (and Loras's, if you like the interpretation the HBO series went with. Which I do).
His entire strategy was "I have the biggest army therefore I win."
In all honesty, that's not that bad a strategy.
It wasn't that much bigger. And I remember getting the distinct impression that his army was just not... not ready for war. They were all young people bred on stories of war and valor. He had a huge army who all loved Renly, but they weren't soldiers like they'd be facing from...
Well, on that thought, who had the "real" soldiers? The North, I guess.
Stannis was an amazing tactician, however.
No medieval army is really ready for war, they're peasant levies. Had
Renly lived and kept his host going, it seems likely that Bolton would have reevaluated turning on Rob, and Tywin would have absolutely no chance of keeping King's Landing from being sacked
Doesn't someone in the books explicitly praise Renly's taking his time? Tyrion? The longer he waited the more likely Tywin and Robbs army would bleed each other to death and the worse the food situation in Kings Landing becomes (since Renly's army is blocking the food supply). The longer he waits the worse off his opponents will be facing his well rested army. Plus of course he wants to see Stannis make his play and react to that.
Re: Renly
Yeah, Renly's strategy was predicated on letting the others fight it out and be weakened, and then sweeping in with his massive army. He also wasn't quite as naive as he's been portrayed in the movies, and he also had Tarly, who is described as a credible (if jerkish) battlefield commander.
Man, I want to use certain ASoIaF icons referencing events from 10 year old books (Sansa or Hound/Sansa ones) but I'm afraid I'll get bitched at by the HBO series people.
I'm also sad that the first season didn't reference this at all.
Another question: How many people's inner visions of characters have been replaced by the HBO series versions? Strangely, mine haven't. I still like the different artwork versions of characters more so in a lot of cases as much as I'm enjoying the series.
HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
There have been references to Rhaegar in the TV series, but if you hadn't read the books you would have to be an uncommonly perceptive viewer to remember them and synthesize them into something significant. Hell, after I first read Game of Thrones I could have barely told you who Rhaegar was.
book 2
I am looking forward to seeing Rhaegar during Dany's vision at the House of the Undying.
Man, I want to use certain ASoIaF icons referencing events from 10 year old books (Sansa or Hound/Sansa ones) but I'm afraid I'll get bitched at by the HBO series people.
I'm also sad that the first season didn't reference this at all.
Another question. Are there any people besides me that actually grew to like Sansa as a character in spite of being annoyed with her at first?
(Book 4 Spoilers)
I mean, come on. After her suffering and survival, the unreliable narration of trying to make herself feel better, the Hound stuff, the Tyrion stuff, and then this. It's taken a while, but there's a lot of character growth in there. I rather think she'll be hardened player in the Game by the end.
Another question. Are there any people besides me that actually grew to like Sansa as a character in spite of being annoyed with her at first?
(Book 4 Spoilers)
I mean, come on. After her suffering and survival, the unreliable narration of trying to make herself feel better, the Hound stuff, the Tyrion stuff, and then this. It's taken a while, but there's a lot of character growth in there. I rather think she'll be hardened player in the Game by the end.
It's tough not to feel sympathy for her. When the series starts she's 13 (?) or so, and she goes through a lot of shit. She basically believes that her entire family has been methodically hunted down and murdered. I'd like to see how her character develops going forward.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
Another question. Are there any people besides me that actually grew to like Sansa as a character in spite of being annoyed with her at first?
(Book 4 Spoilers)
I mean, come on. After her suffering and survival, the unreliable narration of trying to make herself feel better, the Hound stuff, the Tyrion stuff, and then this. It's taken a while, but there's a lot of character growth in there. I rather think she'll be hardened player in the Game by the end.
I feel bad for her; but I still don't know if I can forgive her for betraying Ned to Cersei. I do enjoy her growth. Anything is better than how she was initially.
Anyone else think all the good POVs are in ADWD as opposed to ASOS? He even brought back the good characters from AFFC to reappear in ADWD: Jaime, Cersei, Arya plus Dany
Also I'm very interested in this unreliable narrator stuff with Cersei and Sansa. is there more on that somewhere?
valiance on
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
Another question. Are there any people besides me that actually grew to like Sansa as a character in spite of being annoyed with her at first?
Yeah, I think Sansa has the potential to be one of the best characters in the series.
She's been very well written, and if she was unlikable at the beginning her character arc has the most potential. I can't think of another living character who has had as consistently rough a time as her. Everyone else has had ups and downs and friends to call on, but Sansa has been isolated and powerless in hostile territory for 3 books now, and I think she might come out of it harder and smarter than anybody else. Or Martin could have a gust of wind blow her off a mountain to her death. Never can tell.
Anyone else think all the good POVs are in ADWD as opposed to ASOS? He even brought back the good characters from AFFC to reappear in ADWD: Jaime, Cersei, Arya plus Dany
Jamie, Arya, and Sansa made AFoC for me. But yeah, you're kinda right.
(Again, B4 Spoilers.)
"Throw it in the fire." earns Jamie +50 points from me.
Another question. Are there any people besides me that actually grew to like Sansa as a character in spite of being annoyed with her at first?
Yeah, I think Sansa has the potential to be one of the best characters in the series.
She's been very well written, and if she was unlikable at the beginning her character arc has the most potential. I can't think of another living character who has had as consistently rough a time as her. Everyone else has had ups and downs and friends to call on, but Sansa has been isolated and powerless in hostile territory for 3 books now, and I think she might come out of it harder and smarter than anybody else. Or Martin could have a gust of wind blow her off a mountain to her death. Never can tell.
These books are so deliciously good that during that trek down from the Eyrie, last Sansa chapter in AFfC, I truly thought it was possible they would simply be sent to their death by an errant gust of wind. GRRM is just so damned good at his craft.
As for my hopes for Sansa...if she serves Littlefinger some ultimate, final betrayal I will rejoice so hard.
I really want to like Sansa, but until she smartens enough to
outwit Littlefinger
I think she'll continue her toolishness. I was sad that the
onion knight
was discarded in such an offhand manner.
Regarding the second point,
we don't really know what happened to the Onion Knight. Remember a bunch of stuff happening 'off-screen' in AFfC will be described in detail in the next book, as much of ADwD is supposed to be happening concurrently with AFfC. Presumably whatever is going on with Davos will be described through PoV in the next book. Probably. Or, you know, gust of wind, etc.
At what point does DWD pick up? I have heard quite a lot of things from, towards the later chapters in AFFC and at the beginning of AFFC.
Fizban140 on
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
edited June 2011
Dunno. It's been quite a while (years) since I read the sample chapters, and I don't know if there are clues there. Has he given an explicit answer on the question? I guess one way to estimate it is go through AFfC until you come across a reference to something happening 'off-screen' that you would really expect to be described in detail.
Another question. Are there any people besides me that actually grew to like Sansa as a character in spite of being annoyed with her at first?
She has grown on me throughout the series, I like her.
Oh and another thing...
Serious Book 3 Spoiler
Rereading book 3, its suprising how much effort Martin puts in to showing that there is a future storyline for Robb & Catelyn - He goes into great detail on Robb's plan to retake Moat Cailin after Edmure's wedding. Sending Catelyn to Seaguard, (i think it was Seaguard) and i feel its hinted at a little that she finds this Lord in Seaguard attractive..
Even Arya looks like she is going to return and the most awesome character in the books (Sandor) looks like he might join the North if Robb lets him.
Posts
That the memory goes back a couple of episodes if that at best. The show is closer to Lost than to a sitcom with regard to the involvement required by the viewer.
[edit]Wow. Didn't realise how much they did, and that the current format for what we think of as HBO shows is so recent.
If I think HBO show, I'm thinking of the 45 min to an hour long episode that is part of a story told over the course of a series, rather than the more traditional sitcom/cop-show style of having discrete stories all within the same setting.
The Wire vs Law and Order, etc.
With that in mind, it seems odd that you'd expect the latter from Game of Thrones, when everything they have done so far is a story told over a series, rather than a set of stories told in a setting. Then again they've done really well in their international marketing, to the point that I was going to include Dexter in this example - but this does really just reinforce my point (at least as an international viewer), HBO is synonymous with a certain type of show.
As an aside, I think that On Demand viewing is a real boon to stories like this. Certainly makes it easier for people to get excited and catch up in a story rather than having the problem with bringing new viewers into a series half way through. On the otherhand, I've read far more Sword of Truth books than I wanted to because I'd started the series, so perhaps it's not all good.
Rigorous Scholarship
The trick is to work out which words I've left out and not noticed because I can't fast enough, unfortunately when I read the sentences back I still remember what I'd originally intended to write, which makes spotting the fact I've only written half of it more complicated than it should be.
Sorry. Hopefully the previous posts will be edited to make more sense.
And "Type" was left out on purpose.
To summarise the madness above.
I thought the original post by you (Zeeny) was talking about HBO's official forums, rather than the thread on PA.
Thus I was confused why people who were unaware of the series, but knew of the show on HBO, would be expecting a series focused on individual episodes rather than one long story told over the course of the series/season when that is what HBO is known for.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
this so fucking much
Aaaaaaaaaah. I was just being snarky to the HBO thread we have on here.
It really is so much easier to have a conversation when you're actually talking about the same thing.
Re: Renly
I'm also sad that the first season didn't reference this at all.
(From http://www.winterfell.altervista.org if you didn't know)
It bypassed The Tower of Joy and Promise Me Ned in its entirety.
And my favorite quote isn't in there either:
“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
book 2
that quote is from book 3
also I suspect a lot of the Rheagar and Lyanna stuff will be told through the Reed kids in the 2nd season.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I can't help that your opinions are wrong and that you are unwilling to hear anything contrary.
(Book 4 Spoilers)
I mean, come on. After her suffering and survival, the unreliable narration of trying to make herself feel better, the Hound stuff, the Tyrion stuff, and then this. It's taken a while, but there's a lot of character growth in there. I rather think she'll be hardened player in the Game by the end.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Rigorous Scholarship
Anyone else think all the good POVs are in ADWD as opposed to ASOS? He even brought back the good characters from AFFC to reappear in ADWD: Jaime, Cersei, Arya plus Dany
Yeah, I think Sansa has the potential to be one of the best characters in the series.
Jamie, Arya, and Sansa made AFoC for me. But yeah, you're kinda right.
(Again, B4 Spoilers.)
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
As for my hopes for Sansa...if she serves Littlefinger some ultimate, final betrayal I will rejoice so hard.
twit feed
Isn't that what Jaime says(Book 3-4 spoilers)
No. No. No. No. No.
(Serious end of Book 4 spoilers.)
Edit: Beat.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Regarding the second point,
She has grown on me throughout the series, I like her.
Oh and another thing...
Serious Book 3 Spoiler
Even Arya looks like she is going to return and the most awesome character in the books (Sandor) looks like he might join the North if Robb lets him.
Then Red Wedding Shit Storm.
Oh George how I loathe (love) you.