Let's be honest here, if Cyborg were to have professional fights against bunch of guys in the same weight class and always loses to the Top 10 but beats everyone else, how would that differentiate her from, say, Brett Rogers? (Yeah, I went there. Suck it.)
She doesn't beat her wife.
Seriously though you'd have better luck getting women to compete against men in other less-contact sports (like Golf and Tennis) before you'd see them cross competing in slightly-more-contact sports (like Basketball) way the fuck before you see them cross competing in full-contact sports (MMA, Boxing, maybe Football and Soccer).
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Yeah B:L, I agree with you there. It's probably never going to happen in my lifetime, given current society. I just feel it's kind of sad that Cyborg isn't afforded the opportunity to really compete and test herself against her true peers. No women stand even a remote chance against her at this point...
I'd like to see women in pro MMA fights more often after watching some of Felice Herrig and Michelle Gutierrez, it's no joke they can really fight. On the other hand though, there's less of a talent pool just because less women are involved in the sport and some of the fans would deal with it extremely poorly, the shit running in the live chats during Felice's last fight made you a little angry, she busts ass training as a fighter only to have people blow it off as a mid fight card soft porn break or something and make all sorts of screwed up comments.
Also, men vs women MMA? Seriously? We're talking about this? We don't even have women in UFC and you want to jump from no women at all to having them fight the dudes?
Chessboxing909 on
"I will f**kin' beat you into the ground in front of your whole life that I don't get to have." -Nick Diaz
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Sorry, I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum. To, you know, discuss things. Even things we admit to be far from probable.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming of, "Things we want that have a good chance of becoming true."
Upon further consideration... I'm not really sure Cyborg would win against even C-level competition. We're just built differently. Sexism doesn't really enter into it.
I love Cyborg but no I don't think she should fight men. She'll beat up plenty of sparring partners but it would simply not be fair to put her up against guys who will have far too many advantages in a fight. She deserves to fight the best women in the world and there are a few out there, but only a few. The problem is they're splintered off into several different b and c leagues where they're hard to find. I've seen Wanderlei train several from all over the world who fight in Brazil, but you never see them on the big stage because the bigger promotions only have a mild interest in female MMA and generally suck at picking up new talent.
Not to speak of the UFC, the only really big league in the world and it does not even allow female MMA fighters. You can understand why many female athletes won't even consider a career in the sport
I'm slightly confused as to what advantages you think a 145lb man has over 145lb woman when they're both in shape and extremely athletic?
Men are larger and stronger on average... but we're not talking about average. Sure there are certain fundamental differences in body structure, but physically it's not like men of equal size are going to be that much different. Men might have an upper body strength advantage on average, but because a women's pelvis is wider she can generate more force with her legs. Women's muscles don't build up lactic acid as rapidly as men do, they'll have better endurance even at the same size. And if you think a woman built like Cyborg doesn't have a naturally elevated Testosterone level, bringing her more in line with men of her size I've got a bridge to sell you.
However if you want to argue that simply society can't handle men and women fighting each other, then I certainly agree with you.
Men got testosterone which trumps anything a woman has. A fit man will be stronger than a fit woman, which is why Cyborg would be at a disadvantage in wrestling and grappling. Men can pack on more muscle on their frames and have a significantly greater core strength
Cyborg no doubt uses testosterone supplements already but it's not gonna put her on par with athletic males
Women carry (about) 8% more body fat than men at a similar level of body composition. Which means, for a given level of competitiveness (based on muscle mass and strength), a woman is going to have to cut significantly more weight, and do it in a way that is considerably less healthy than a man.
That has both short-term and long-term consequences on competitiveness and health that really shouldn't be encouraged.
Men got testosterone which trumps anything a woman has. A fit man will be stronger than a fit woman, which is why Cyborg would be at a disadvantage in wrestling and grappling. Men can pack on more muscle on their frames and have a significantly greater core strength
Cyborg no doubt uses testosterone supplements already but it's not gonna put her on par with athletic males
What do you think testosterone does? It doesn't make you stronger automatically. It's not the Captain America serum.
Men can't pack on more muscle at the same weight... If a man and a woman are standing next to each other, each weighs the same and has the same BF% they're going to have the same amount of muscle. The Man might have a preponderance of type I muscle fibers as compared to a woman but that would give the woman an advantage in any kind of endurance activity. Wrestling and grappling have a strength component, but they're not everything. Rolling with purple belts half my size I still can't always out grapple them.
Men can't pack on more muscle at the same weight... If a man and a woman are standing next to each other, each weighs the same and has the same BF% they're going to have the same amount of muscle.
See my post immediately preceding yours, but yes, men can. At the same weight and body composition, a man would be carrying notably less fat and more muscle. To achieve the same muscle/fat/weight, a woman has to lose significantly more [strike]weight[/strike] fat.
If a woman drops to 5% body fat, she's going to be facing serious short- and long-term health repercussions. It's already a cause of concern in both men's and women's MMA; do you think that encouraging even more severe weight cuts is a good idea?
Men got testosterone which trumps anything a woman has. A fit man will be stronger than a fit woman, which is why Cyborg would be at a disadvantage in wrestling and grappling. Men can pack on more muscle on their frames and have a significantly greater core strength
Cyborg no doubt uses testosterone supplements already but it's not gonna put her on par with athletic males
What do you think testosterone does? It doesn't make you stronger automatically. It's not the Captain America serum.
Men can't pack on more muscle at the same weight... If a man and a woman are standing next to each other, each weighs the same and has the same BF% they're going to have the same amount of muscle.
No, since the frames of a man and a woman are different. Like I said, a man can pack on much more muscle and can do so much more easily. A woman would have to go on testosterone treatments to come even remotely close to the same muscle growth stimulation. This is what female bodybuilders and stronglifters (and many other athletes) do, and they still can not compare to their male counterparts.
If you look at Cyborgs appearance it is clear she is on some sort of testosterone supplements since she can get to such low bodyfat percentages and still develop significant muscle mass.
The argument about men and women having different fat and muscle levels at a certain weight is a silly one because we have men in the sport right now who are in the same weight class and have different fat and muscle levels in their body.
For instance, Anthony Johnson weighs well over 200 pounds before he cuts down to 170. Are you going to tell me that he doesn't have significantly more muscle mass than just about every opponent he'll ever face in the Welterweight division? And yet, he's still allowed to compete there because he makes the weight.
Making the argument that someone shouldn't be able to compete in a weight class because they might have less muscle, more fat, etc. is a bit silly regardless of what gender we're talking about.
Don't get me wrong, Tum has a point about the health implications on women if they drop below a certain amount of body fat...it can screw up their hormones and their menstrual cycle, etc. But have any of you seen a picture of Cyborg when she weighs in? I have a hard time believing that woman isn't already below 5% body fat when she fights. I highly doubt she's going to be doing anything differently to her body now fighting women than if she fights men.
ChillyWilly on
PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
Women are not as fast, they can't lift as much, they can't pack the same punch and they're all around less physically strong. We've had modern womens results comapred to mens for over a hundred years now with games in the olympics in all aspects of what a human athlete can do and women always trail behind the men in physical tasks.
What I'm saying here is that they can't match up to male athletes on a fair level and everything from training to fight day would be an uphill battle for a woman if she competed in a male division
It's really dumb of you to think women should compete with men in MMA. Not even women want this
Fair enough. Apparently I'm terrible at knowing BF% by sight. Haha.
@Forumite: How about we have this discussion without calling each other names?
Really, my whole point in this debate is that Cyborg would kill pretty much any woman she faces. If she agreed to it and the man agreed to it, why shouldn't it be allowed? Both know what they're getting into.
This is the video I was talking about earlier where a man and a woman fight in vale tudo (no rules, no gloves). I am sure you who want to see women fight men will like this
The woman beats the guy up pretty bad, though this is just random people at a gym which is pretty important. She uses headbutts to ruin him which is pretty cool and totally legit for this type of competition.
Japan has (of course) also had a few man vs woman fights in kickboxing and such where the woman does well. However, the further away from amateurs you go the bigger the disparity between men and women become. However at an amateur level the best women are comparable to at least a few men. But at a higher level I do not think they should compete against eachother for reasons stated earlier in this thread
I don't see how from any logical standpoint why Cyborg shouldn't be allowed to work her way up the male division like any other fighter. Once she hits her skill ceiling she'll get her ass beat (just like male competitors do) and steadily find her place in the division. All the discussion about body fat etc is moot if she can compete fine.
I think the logical problem is commissioning a fight (with all the dangers involved) where one competitor is at a serious disadvantage. All it takes is one really bad mismatch for a whole shitstorm to be caused. It's the same if the fight was between two men or two women but with a mix the potential for getting the sport seriously fucked is so much higher.
None of this addresses the issue of pride among the male fighters. I have a hard time believing any of them would accept that fight on the fear of losing to a girl.
Heh, I was just going to post something to that effect.
But then... I dunno, everyone's got a price. I mean, I don't think Jose Aldo would take the fight, but I'm pretty sure lots of guys in other promotions would. A paycheck is a paycheck.
There's also no way that a major organization is going to schedule a man against a woman just from a PR standpoint. There's no scenario where footage of a woman getting hit by a man, regardless of context, makes the organization in question look better. It's a risk that a sport that's had an enormous struggle to gain mainstream legitimacy just won't take, there's no way.
There's also no way that a major organization is going to schedule a man against a woman just from a PR standpoint. There's no scenario where footage of a woman getting hit by a man, regardless of context, makes the organization in question look better. It's a risk that a sport that's had an enormous struggle to gain mainstream legitimacy just won't take, there's no way.
This. And let me know when the WNBA merges with the NBA along with mens and women's tennis, olympic events, rugby and when the NFL starts taking in female linebackers. When we see some of that, then I'll be all for talking about men and women beating each other up in the cage.
Chessboxing909 on
"I will f**kin' beat you into the ground in front of your whole life that I don't get to have." -Nick Diaz
I'd pick Cyborg to beat James Toney in an MMA match.
Also IIRC Fox ran one of their celebrity boxing things years ago featuring Joey Buttafuco (or however you spell it) vs Chyna, a female pro wrestler. More people were upset that she didn't kick Joey's ass, than were upset at the sight of a dude boxing a woman.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Yeah, it's hard to argue that men and women don't have fundamental biological/physical differences that translate, on average, to different performance standards. I just find using those differences as a blanket statement that all women and all men should never compete against each other in any physically demanding sport to be somewhat specious, especially at the professional level, where the vast majority of people would never meet performance standards, either. Why not evaluate each person as an individual and, on those merits, determine whether or not they are fit to compete?
The number of women who could actually do this are far and few between, but why preclude them from the opportunity purely because of gender?
Anyway, this discussion has probably run its course...
Hey Chilly, let's make a side bet. If I win, you have to get your fiance to make me a sandwich. If you win, I'll get your mom to make you a sandwich. Deal?
The point of rules is to not have to, as best possible, rely on subjective determinations. Especially at a professional level. And, really, what performance standards besides the ability to make weight? A large number of fighters can't make it three rounds; that would seem to be a bare minimum requirement if there was ever going to be one!
I doubt you'll see anyone making the argument that in non-ranked competition, men should never ever spar or grapple with women. That's just silly.
There's also no way that a major organization is going to schedule a man against a woman just from a PR standpoint. There's no scenario where footage of a woman getting hit by a man, regardless of context, makes the organization in question look better. It's a risk that a sport that's had an enormous struggle to gain mainstream legitimacy just won't take, there's no way.
This. And let me know when the WNBA merges with the NBA along with mens and women's tennis, olympic events, rugby and when the NFL starts taking in female linebackers. When we see some of that, then I'll be all for talking about men and women beating each other up in the cage.
If we're going to have this discussion, let's at least keep it to examples that are analogous, please.
Fair point with tennis and maybe basketball, since those depend less on strength than technique. "Olympic events" is too broad to even comment on.
But you cannot seriously use rugby and football here. The size difference would be too great. For the purposes of this discussion, please try and remember that we're talking about MMA fighters in the same weight class, regardless of gender. Let's try and be a bit more logical with our comparisons.
ChillyWilly on
PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
I don't want to make it sound like I don't think women couldn't compete with men in any sport ever. I think there's a very real possibility that a woman could break into professional baseball, basketball, hell maybe even hockey if there's a kick-ass female goalie. But in things like pro MMA, a sport tied directly to weight and physical ability, I just don't see it. I think the comparison someone made to Olympic weight-lifting is an apt one, if only in showing the disparity between physical ability of the two genders at the same weight.
In 2008 the only class that lines up between men and women is the 69 kg class; the gold medal total for men was 348 kg and the women's gold total was 286. That's a difference of 62 kg, roughly 132 lbs, which is a pretty serious disparity in that context.
I'm going to side with Cilly on this one. I think the main issue is societal expectations more than anything. The sport lets men with sizable strength differences compete all the time. In the early days of NA MMA, that was the standard, and it wasn't always the much larger person winning. If a woman wants to compete with men then she just needs to develop the right skills, is all. The reason it won't happen for a long, long time, though, is because no one will put the show on, even if a women is able and willing to do it.
Royce Gracie fought guys who out-weighed him by 70 lbs. Minowaman fights guys like Bob Sapp who out-weigh him by 140 lbs. I'm pretty sure the strength differential between Minowa and Sapp is greater than that between Cyborg and Kenny Florian.
We're discussing modern-day, mainstream, sanctioned MMA. Not Japanese freakshows or early-American MMA which was very nearly legislated out of existence.
Yeah I have no doubt some women could compete but there's too many problems. Women carry more body fat, can't build muscle as well because of the lack of testosterone, there's a much smaller talent pool for women's MMA, especially with no women's UFC ((Which I'd like to see change)) and most men are going to have reservations about going full force against a female opponent ((or even accepting a fight against one, there's no positive spin possible for the guy taking that fight.))
Sorry for being so negative about this, I just think it's a kind of dumb thing to talk about when we don't even have women in the UFC yet, and that I'll argue for, there's some great female fighters out there, they train hard and deserve respect.
Chessboxing909 on
"I will f**kin' beat you into the ground in front of your whole life that I don't get to have." -Nick Diaz
I love south american ground karate
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
We're discussing modern-day, mainstream, sanctioned MMA. Not Japanese freakshows or early-American MMA which was very nearly legislated out of existence.
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Seriously though you'd have better luck getting women to compete against men in other less-contact sports (like Golf and Tennis) before you'd see them cross competing in slightly-more-contact sports (like Basketball) way the fuck before you see them cross competing in full-contact sports (MMA, Boxing, maybe Football and Soccer).
Some women can beat up a whole lot of dudes but the fact of the matter is the dudes have an advantage.
Also, men vs women MMA? Seriously? We're talking about this? We don't even have women in UFC and you want to jump from no women at all to having them fight the dudes?
I love south american ground karate
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming of, "Things we want that have a good chance of becoming true."
They'd be fighting dudes in Strikeforce, like [strike]God[/strike] Dana White intended.
Not to speak of the UFC, the only really big league in the world and it does not even allow female MMA fighters. You can understand why many female athletes won't even consider a career in the sport
Men are larger and stronger on average... but we're not talking about average. Sure there are certain fundamental differences in body structure, but physically it's not like men of equal size are going to be that much different. Men might have an upper body strength advantage on average, but because a women's pelvis is wider she can generate more force with her legs. Women's muscles don't build up lactic acid as rapidly as men do, they'll have better endurance even at the same size. And if you think a woman built like Cyborg doesn't have a naturally elevated Testosterone level, bringing her more in line with men of her size I've got a bridge to sell you.
However if you want to argue that simply society can't handle men and women fighting each other, then I certainly agree with you.
Cyborg no doubt uses testosterone supplements already but it's not gonna put her on par with athletic males
That has both short-term and long-term consequences on competitiveness and health that really shouldn't be encouraged.
What do you think testosterone does? It doesn't make you stronger automatically. It's not the Captain America serum.
Men can't pack on more muscle at the same weight... If a man and a woman are standing next to each other, each weighs the same and has the same BF% they're going to have the same amount of muscle. The Man might have a preponderance of type I muscle fibers as compared to a woman but that would give the woman an advantage in any kind of endurance activity. Wrestling and grappling have a strength component, but they're not everything. Rolling with purple belts half my size I still can't always out grapple them.
Cause that would be pretty funny. :^:
See my post immediately preceding yours, but yes, men can. At the same weight and body composition, a man would be carrying notably less fat and more muscle. To achieve the same muscle/fat/weight, a woman has to lose significantly more [strike]weight[/strike] fat.
If a woman drops to 5% body fat, she's going to be facing serious short- and long-term health repercussions. It's already a cause of concern in both men's and women's MMA; do you think that encouraging even more severe weight cuts is a good idea?
No, since the frames of a man and a woman are different. Like I said, a man can pack on much more muscle and can do so much more easily. A woman would have to go on testosterone treatments to come even remotely close to the same muscle growth stimulation. This is what female bodybuilders and stronglifters (and many other athletes) do, and they still can not compare to their male counterparts.
If you look at Cyborgs appearance it is clear she is on some sort of testosterone supplements since she can get to such low bodyfat percentages and still develop significant muscle mass.
There is a reason why the best female olympic level lifters can not lift as much as the best men in their weightclass, and trust me, they train just as hard.
For instance, Anthony Johnson weighs well over 200 pounds before he cuts down to 170. Are you going to tell me that he doesn't have significantly more muscle mass than just about every opponent he'll ever face in the Welterweight division? And yet, he's still allowed to compete there because he makes the weight.
Making the argument that someone shouldn't be able to compete in a weight class because they might have less muscle, more fat, etc. is a bit silly regardless of what gender we're talking about.
Don't get me wrong, Tum has a point about the health implications on women if they drop below a certain amount of body fat...it can screw up their hormones and their menstrual cycle, etc. But have any of you seen a picture of Cyborg when she weighs in? I have a hard time believing that woman isn't already below 5% body fat when she fights. I highly doubt she's going to be doing anything differently to her body now fighting women than if she fights men.
What I'm saying here is that they can't match up to male athletes on a fair level and everything from training to fight day would be an uphill battle for a woman if she competed in a male division
It's really dumb of you to think women should compete with men in MMA. Not even women want this
Men compete at ~4%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk9_mjaHfrI&feature=channel_video_title#t=1m31s
@Forumite: How about we have this discussion without calling each other names?
Really, my whole point in this debate is that Cyborg would kill pretty much any woman she faces. If she agreed to it and the man agreed to it, why shouldn't it be allowed? Both know what they're getting into.
Besides, if a commission will sanction
this
...then surely a man can fight a woman, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdTYkjCzbEQ
The woman beats the guy up pretty bad, though this is just random people at a gym which is pretty important. She uses headbutts to ruin him which is pretty cool and totally legit for this type of competition.
Japan has (of course) also had a few man vs woman fights in kickboxing and such where the woman does well. However, the further away from amateurs you go the bigger the disparity between men and women become. However at an amateur level the best women are comparable to at least a few men. But at a higher level I do not think they should compete against eachother for reasons stated earlier in this thread
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy
But then... I dunno, everyone's got a price. I mean, I don't think Jose Aldo would take the fight, but I'm pretty sure lots of guys in other promotions would. A paycheck is a paycheck.
Hope all you other bitches are getting on that, yo.
This. And let me know when the WNBA merges with the NBA along with mens and women's tennis, olympic events, rugby and when the NFL starts taking in female linebackers. When we see some of that, then I'll be all for talking about men and women beating each other up in the cage.
I love south american ground karate
Also IIRC Fox ran one of their celebrity boxing things years ago featuring Joey Buttafuco (or however you spell it) vs Chyna, a female pro wrestler. More people were upset that she didn't kick Joey's ass, than were upset at the sight of a dude boxing a woman.
The number of women who could actually do this are far and few between, but why preclude them from the opportunity purely because of gender?
Anyway, this discussion has probably run its course...
Hey Chilly, let's make a side bet. If I win, you have to get your fiance to make me a sandwich. If you win, I'll get your mom to make you a sandwich. Deal?
I doubt you'll see anyone making the argument that in non-ranked competition, men should never ever spar or grapple with women. That's just silly.
If we're going to have this discussion, let's at least keep it to examples that are analogous, please.
Fair point with tennis and maybe basketball, since those depend less on strength than technique. "Olympic events" is too broad to even comment on.
But you cannot seriously use rugby and football here. The size difference would be too great. For the purposes of this discussion, please try and remember that we're talking about MMA fighters in the same weight class, regardless of gender. Let's try and be a bit more logical with our comparisons.
In 2008 the only class that lines up between men and women is the 69 kg class; the gold medal total for men was 348 kg and the women's gold total was 286. That's a difference of 62 kg, roughly 132 lbs, which is a pretty serious disparity in that context.
Sorry for being so negative about this, I just think it's a kind of dumb thing to talk about when we don't even have women in the UFC yet, and that I'll argue for, there's some great female fighters out there, they train hard and deserve respect.
I love south american ground karate
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