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More Trolls.....

IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
edited June 2007 in Artist's Corner
Would you call this an Obsession? Well, whatever. This certainly ain't a doodle.
trollportrait.jpg

Crits would be nice, I think the neck looks funny and would like to avoid that next time.
We need to make Wakka stop posting his awesome shit in the doodle thread, and convince him to make another massive thread. It makes me feel bad when I make a new thread knowing he posts everything in there. We can pretend we aren't jealous when we tell him.

Iruka on

Posts

  • TimTheSlothTimTheSloth Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    The teeth dont seem to work anatomically. The tusk things seem to be tilted and it's hard to imagine them connecting to the jaw in a way that would provide proper leverage for teeth.

    I really like the eye, great coloring as well, is this painter? The composition is very good as well though I think some additional focus could be given to the little dragon thing (he seems to have a little harsher shadows than the ogre girl).

    TimTheSloth on
    redtidesig1.jpg
  • NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    The eye is fabulous. What got me about the mouth was that the lips wouldn't hug the curves like that...it looks like you would've had a normal mouth if it weren't for the tusks. Put cashews in your mouth, or something - you'll notice that the lips go around them in a very loose kinda way.

    Check out some sabertooth's for illustrative purposes.

    NightDragon on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    I wasn't going for a tight wrap, more like thats how her lips are, I wanted a normal mouth plus tusks. Like, thats exactly what I wanted. Maybe if I take some lines out of them they'll look less stressed, but I dunno. :( I like the lips. I guess I could of gone more in this direction but I wanted like cute lips, plus big teeth.


    Tim, Its Photoshop. I'm too used to PS to really get into painter. Maybe someday.

    Iruka on
  • LaliluleloLalilulelo Richmond, VARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Who told you to get awesome? Seriously.

    Lalilulelo on
  • NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I think you could still have the "cute lips" thing going on, and just loosen it up a bit on the inner sides. Dunno.

    NightDragon on
  • rfilyawrfilyaw Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I agree with the lower lip concensus. While your style is exemplory, your logic on that point is lacking.

    She looks as though she's sucking in her lips like a goldfish.

    Sorry to reiterate what everyone else says. Just wanted to add some perspective.

    rfilyaw on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    Yeah okay lips look funny blah, I get it thanks. Obviously though I think it it looks fine as cartoonish troll lips kinda puckering but I guess it doesn't. I tend to not think overly logically when I draw, I just draw what I thought of at the time, taking the liberties I want. I try more and more to think more structurally and concept-art like, but it doesn't come first hand, I'm stubborn (if you cant tell)

    I was honestly worried about things that aren't exclusive to fantasy creatures (ololHerUndefinedNeck) The lighting crit is a good one too, I was unsure because I thought her face would be blocking some of the light, but I could add some more brightness to the side of his face.

    Iruka on
  • VirumVirum Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Is it me or does her hand seem massive when compared to her face?

    It's cool though; I dig it.

    As for her tusks, I thought they looked fine. Besides, maybe she is sucking in her lips a bit to look cuter. Troll smile?

    Virum on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    The main thing with the lips is that it looks like they're actually tucked in between her teeth and her tusks.

    It's as if each tusk has its own set of lips.


    You also might want to check the very top of her nose. The colors very faintly suggest that she has a bit of a lump there, almost like a knuckle.

    But yeah, very nice on the eyes. With that extra bit of pink, they look like the eyes of a wolf.

    Incenjucar on
  • M-GremoM-Gremo Registered User
    edited June 2007
    I dunno, I think the tusks/lips work fine. It just looks like she is trying to suck in her lower lip close to her upper lip so she can pull off the faint smile. But I also somewhat tend to agree with what Incenjucar said. It's really just the tusk closest to us that appears this way though. I think that if you did infact lose some of the lines there it would solve the problem. Perhaps just making that section of the lip slightly thinner would do the trick aswell.

    Either way, its amazing over all. I really love the coloring and the almost sinister expression on the dragon-esque creature.

    M-Gremo on
  • Tweaked_Bat_Tweaked_Bat_ Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Is it me or does her hand seem massive when compared to her face?
    Trolls do have longer arms/legs and larger hands/feet compared to a more "human" figure. Just so you know... atleast the WoW ones do, and I'm assuming this is based off of the WoW trolls.

    I think what irks me about the tusks is that they are supposed to be extra large teeth extending out from the rest of the teeth, yet the way they are placed doesn't indicate that... it looks like they are sprouting from infront of her teeth, and as Tim said, don't line up with the structure of the lower jaw... atleast in my eyes. Also, maybe her thumb is a tad small... I think that area where the thumb joins onto the fingers in general is a tad wonky...

    Very lovely otherwise!

    Tweaked_Bat_ on
  • GafotoGafoto Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Yeah, with tusks that big there's no way she can have lips that close. She should have a single line across the bottom and maybe some drool leaking out because she can't shut it.

    Gafoto on
    sierracrest.jpg
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    Since you mentioned the neck, the problem seems to be that while the underlying drawing is fine, in the coloring you've just gone to coloring in that form according to the drawing and not the forms that would make up that shape. You've shaded the whole thing as a single, bent cylinder, without indicating the forms of the trapezius and sternocleidomastoid muscles. The indication doesn't have to be particularly explicit, but the view should be able to pick out the intersection where the neck and the torso meet.

    Also, the shading in that area seems to go too dark, and too quickly- it should not be so significantly different in treatment from the shading on the face. The lighting in other areas of the picture indicates a light coming more from the side than the top, there's no need to show such a deep vertical shadow being cast from the head.

    On another note, a question I'd put to you about your style in general- would you consider your color works like this more as drawings, or paintings? Here I use the terms to arbitrarily to just to differentiate from something that uses line to indicate form, versus light to indicate form. (Yes, I know paintings can have lines and drawings can use light, shut up. Like I said, arbitrary.)

    I ask because it seems that currently your work straddles a middle ground that's hard to put my finger on. For example, you use linework heavily on much of the outlines and hair, but use lighting for areas like the ridge from the side of the nose to the mouth. This is not necessaily a bad thing, but it does make me wonder a bit as to how much the coloring is meant to be "realistic" versus being deliberately stylized.

    Also I ask because I'd like to know whether or not doing one of my patented Giant Crits on lighting/painting would just make me look like a huge douchebag for entirely missing the point. :P

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    well, I guess its how I color line art, so its in the middle. They way I paint has been changes alot and i'm not incredibly stuck on my methods, so you can crit away. I'm sure the info will be helpful. I'm not going for super realistic, Because I like it to be a little reminiscent of black line and to emphasize bright color, I donno if that helps you.

    I've been trying to place those muscles and they seem to hate me, I'll try again and soften the shadows. Thanks for the help on that.

    You guys are beating a dead horse on the tusk thing, thanks, I get it, but I'm still not that worried about it.

    Iruka on
  • GafotoGafoto Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Iruka wrote: »
    You guys are beating a dead horse on the tusk thing, thanks, I get it, but I'm still not that worried about it.
    Then you don't get it, your bad anatomy ruins the rest of the piece.

    Gafoto on
    sierracrest.jpg
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    I've already noted that it looks strange and is structurally flawed, If I do another troll picture, fine, I'd just rather have crits that apply to more pictures, rather than people restating over and over that the lips don't work. Is that an issue, gafoto? I understand the posts just fine in what they mean in regards to this picture, I have alright reading comprehension. But I'm not that worried about it, it was a conscious decision more-so than other choices I made in the picture, I'm not throwing out the crit, I'm just saying the repetition ain't helping me much more.

    egads.

    Edit: Er. And, I'm kinda having a rough day, so sorry if thats harsh. I just mean to say I'm not oblivious just because I'm asking for less repetition.

    Iruka on
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    Iruka wrote: »
    well, I guess its how I color line art, so its in the middle. They way I paint has been changes alot and i'm not incredibly stuck on my methods, so you can crit away. I'm sure the info will be helpful. I'm not going for super realistic, Because I like it to be a little reminiscent of black line and to emphasize bright color, I donno if that helps you.

    Ok, well...

    I guess what I'd say is that I kind of (and this is just a personal opinion, right?) would like to see a stronger commitment either to the line-based style, or to a more painterly, light-based style. Right now it kind of hovers in between, without gaining the full benefits from either.

    Now, saying that I feel there is a risk of me just making it seem like there's a single choice to be made between option A and option B, and I don't think that's necessarily the case or would be a helpful thing to say. I don't mean to stamp out what you've got going in your style just so you can go with "generic style X". However, if you do intend to make the linework/painting style work together, it seems like that the decsion to do so is going to have to be made more stongly stated, more explicit.

    For example, take most classic Disney movies: you have very lush, detailed, painterly backgrounds, but then very flat colored characters on top, with explicit linework. The combination works because it's such a bold, overt stylization. Another example would be stuff like Hardcorepixxx's work:
    http://www.hpx1.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=16
    http://www.hpx1.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=54
    http://www.hpx1.com/displayimage.php?album=3&pos=0
    Here you've got some extremely whacked out, stylized linework, but just these little touches of realistic form.

    These things work because it is made obvious at first glance what the artist is going for- there's a logically strange combination occuring, but it works because the artist is right up in your face about it. What bugs me about the current state of your work is that the combination isn't quite bold enough that it read immediately as a coherent style, but rather something vascillating between two different styles.

    irukatroll.jpg

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    I see what your saying AOB, thank you for being so helpful (paintover on the teeth looks nice too) I'm not quite sure what I want, but obviously I need to keep experimenting. I'm definitely still working on everything, I dont really have a "style" or know what Im doing, I only know what I'm interested in and try to work more towards it.

    I think stuff more like this: http://iruka.iseenothing.com/floatingindream.jpg is really what I want to lean towards, do you think that it has the same conflict?

    Iruka on
  • Angel_of_BaconAngel_of_Bacon Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    I would say that piece works far more effectively, because the patterning makes it obvious that it is not meant as a literal rendering of objects, but more to be a subjective use of graphic elements. However, if you had used more literal, tangible objects in the background, there would be the same sort of confusion. Resolving that sort of confusion may be a matter of merely exaggerating certain literal elements to the point where they cannot be interpreted as attempts at realism, or organizing those elements in an overtly graphic and stylized manner rather than a naturalistic one, (or, probably a million different things that I'm not going to spend all day writing out).

    I'd encourage you at this point, since you don't have a set style you are committed to, is to branch out into trying more diverse techniques of rendering- take one piece and go all the way towards realism, take the next to extreme exaggeration and cartooniness, take the next and go all Gustav Klimt with it. Don't get stuck in a mode where the thought process is, "I will take my style and go a little more X with it"- fully commit to something out there, something you don't know; try to surprise yourself. Doing so will broaden your range and give you a much bigger toy chest (so to speak) to pull from when playing around, searching for your own style.

    Angel_of_Bacon on
  • IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 2007
    Yeah, that makes alot of since AOB. Thats why your my favorite ;-) I guess I'll just loosen up and try some very new things and see what I get. I definitely don't want to stop improving and growing. I'll take a look around and figure out what kind of stuff I want to do.

    Iruka on
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