seriously just bring the heavy back to how he was literally on launch day, i can't think of any reason why he wasn't balanced then (he was even a little good then, but nothing outrageous)
with the sandvich and the gru he'll still be good, but i think it'll be fine
the main tipping point is at one point heavy was the least played class so valve made it so it was faster to spin up and you move faster while spun up
those buffs negated a very careful balance of commitment that a heavy had with fights and shit
so
just put him back to release state and he should be fine
has anyone tried killing the medic first? always works for me anyways. its a solid tactic I find
Most classes have trouble getting behind the guy with the highest health and damage in the game
I find explosives work quite well. or several quick snap shots with anything else. alternatively going around the heavy is a worthwhile endeavour. I believe there is also a class of some sorts that is quite efficient at doing this flanking while unnoticed stratagem as well
... So at launch the basic minigun was like the brass beast without the extra damage?
I've been using my newly acquired Brass Beast and it feels a lot like the original mini-gun, especially wind up wise. I have no numbers to support this though
The problem with the pyro is they tried to make him an ambush class when originally he was all about area denial. Most classes outdamage or equal the pyros damage at his "optimum range" and with all the new ways to negate afterburn the class continues to suffer. While the airblast is a welcome addition the reality is that it is one more hacked on thing trying to give the pyro some form of role where he excels. In the end the TF2 pyro is a cobbled together mess that ends up being a sub par class.
I wish they had stuck with the original tf pyro who was a guided cruise missile of flaming carnage. The napalm cannon was there to ignite people at range forcing them to seek health, and ability to rocket jump. The napalm grenades allowed a pyro to force a engineer to either abandon his sentry or burn to death. The flamethrowers damage was decent, but where he really excelled was the afterburn and the AOE. Every major weapon we had was AOE. We spread fire and carnage in our wake and sometimes we got the kills, sometimes we were just a fast objective grabber than left everything at low health slowly burning to death scrambling for a backpack while our teammates rolled in to finish them off.
Now everything negates us, and we have lost the majority of our long range and AOE abilities in exchange for the ability to feed a bad solider rockets lag depending
Look everyone listen to me because I'm always right. My main problem with the new heavy is that he is just too fast. In the past the main hindrance to the heavy was once you killed him it took forever for him to make it back to the action. With lvl 3 teleporters, GRU, steak sandwich, and the solider whip he can get to the front line almost as fast as medics or pyros. His slow speed is no longer a punishment.
I know everyone is saying to just kill the medic but good luck with that. I like to think that I play a decent scout or pyro but it has gotten really hard to pick the medic and live. The heavy spins up too fast my best option is to sandman the heavy and hope I can get a couple of good meatshots into the medic before I die. And if an experienced person is playing medic its not like the medic is just standing still back there. He is jumping around and running in front of the heavy at the first sign of trouble.
Alex Wilder on
Time is a flat circle
0
Options
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
How do you all suggest that the heavy or heavy/medic is nerfed, then?
And what are these buffs the heavy got? I've only been playing recently.
Definitely revert the spun-up movement speed buff back down to 80, maybe revert the spin-up speed change too. They could probably widen the firing cone back to its second incarnation without too much issue either; the amount of disruptive focus fire a Heavy can put on a Sniper at long range is a bit silly (alternatively, I'd like to see a sniper rifle with a longer charge up time, but no loss of aim on being hit with tiny non-Australian bullets).
For example, at the moment, unspun-up, I find that mostly Pyros who burn-airblast-axtinguish combo me will die just before they kill me, provided I don't fuck up on aim. Whether I live or die after killing them depends on how quickly I can spin down and drop a sandvich. Now that seems wrong, frankly. If a Pyro gets the jump on a Heavy who isn't spun up, should it really be a 1 for 1 trade?
Obviously, that might not be a Heavy nerf issue. It might just be another need for a Pyro buff.
The point of Heavy was originally - and this is something Valve said - to allow a low bar of entry to players who won't twitchmasters of CS. He was supposed to have a medium skill floor and a low skill ceiling in aim and damage, and mostly depend upon good map awareness to get a killing streak. I wouldn't describe his present effect on the game anything like this.
I think the pyro is a pretty balanced class. With the different flaming crit mechanics you can do a lot of damage quickly and at worst you can always just airblast and run away.
EDIT: Just to keep things clear.
DeMoN: I'm still willing to trade the "Your Eternal Reward" and a nametag for the Market Gardener
AuburnTiger: I'm Willing to trade (or give away more likely) a cooler
Pata: I'm up for trading the Vintage Chargin' Targe for a refined metal
Skexis: Willing to trade Vintage Trophy Belt and a "Your Eternal Reward" for the Booties and the Quick Fix.
I probably won't be free until 5pm Alaskan time (6pm PST, 10pm EST) and possibly later during the week, but send me a Steam friends request/message if you're online and I'll try and get your stuff to you. Steam name is still Undead Scottsman.
What's your Steam ID?
Edit: Oops, must have looked over it. But I can't find you on Steam either way.
I still don't really know what the problem is. I have played lot's of demoman, I have killed lots of heavies. Its never been the ultimate challange. Sure if they get random crits they will kill you. I guess that's hard to stop. If you are always losing to them maybe you should try to insure you only meet them at ranges that work for you. If you know the other team is running lots of heavies you can afford to play to specifically counter them, they wont have much else to push with.
It's just, you don't need any fancy counter to heavies, you just shoot them a bunch, if that doesnt work travel with friends and shoot them a bunch as a group. Try not to do it whilst standing within melee range of him.
Pyros with 225 health and no damage falloff were overpowered. Heavies arn't that.
No one has ever switched off of a heavy because they found it ineffective or too hard (which is something that happens everyday to almost every other class),
I switched off heavy last night in fact on HONC because I couldn't take 5 steps out of spawn without one of the two spies stabbing me in the back, spies which seemed to do nothing but stab me and the other heavy on the team. Which was frustrating given that we had a pyro that wasn't spychecking and a team that wasn't actually talking (so no advance warning of spies), so I decided to actually have fun and play a pyro to actually hunt the damn spies down.
Its hardly a matter of class balance that people who are bad at one class will run head long in to someone who is bad at heavy and the heavy wins.
Someone who is bad at heavy is still easy to kill. Someone who is good at heavy is good at the game and hard to beat. Just like good soldiers and good scouts and good everything.
Heavy is not over powered now and he never has been. He still has the same weaknesses he always had and the same solutions still work.
Sydney Sleeper is the ultimate heavy-killing weapon.
Cause everyone on your team is probably looking/shooting at that heavy anyway, now he just has a big, dripping, yellow target that says "shoot harder!" on his face. And it's no slouch damage-wise, either. Not great, but it's awesome for adding more damage onto a hard target from a safe-ish location, as well as giving mini-crits to any teammates who happen to hit him too.
Demoman works pretty well too; either variety (knight, pipebomb)....but that can be a little trickier...unless you get four direct hits, then he's probably toast.
Its hardly a matter of class balance that people who are bad at one class will run head long in to someone who is bad at heavy and the heavy wins.
Someone who is bad at heavy is still easy to kill. Someone who is good at heavy is good at the game and hard to beat. Just like good soldiers and good scouts and good everything.
Heavy is not over powered now and he never has been. He still has the same weaknesses he always had and the same solutions still work.
please go ahead and not read any posts or points made on prior pages
I think the pyro is a pretty balanced class. With the different flaming crit mechanics you can do a lot of damage quickly and at worst you can always just airblast and run away.
For me, Pyro is like a Spy who can't disguise, backstab, or sap things.
But I'm terrible at Spy so what do I know.
Actually, I'll tell you what I know.
I know that I enjoy the hell out of sneaking up on a group of enemy players, lighting every single one of them on fire as I do my "holy shit that Pyro is crazy what is he doing" dance, and then watching them die one by one as I'm waiting to respawn.
The best ones are when I clear about six guys off a cart just by holding the left mouse button down and running in circles around it.
Pyro is a guilty pleasure and I should feel ashamed that it's my #1 most played class, but I'm not.
All I have been saying is that in the game, when I see the other team go lots of heavies with medics, I can go a long way to solving the problem by playing demo. Soldiers have always had a major weakness in only having 4 rockets to work with at most at any given time, against the overhealed heavy you need 2 to do the job effectively. Demos have 12 bombs at a time each, its not rocket science.
PA has been moaning about heavies for years, but your all going to keep playing the game, so you could at least try to figure out how to solve your problems instead of throwing your hands up and saying "well gosh, these people are bad at the game but they all went heavy so we never stood a chance"
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
3 month old, 20 post account telling us about how we've been complaining about heavies for 'years', after saying he counters teams of heavies as a single demoman.
Seems legit guys.
Bethryn on
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
0
Options
citizen059hello my name is citizenI'm from the InternetRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
I just thought of a great way to counter a Heavy.
Go in as a Spy, disguised as a Medic. Then, when the heavy gets shot, just don't heal them because you're really a Spy.
EDIT: Just to keep things clear.
DeMoN: I'm still willing to trade the "Your Eternal Reward" and a nametag for the Market Gardener
AuburnTiger: I'm Willing to trade (or give away more likely) a cooler
Pata: I'm up for trading the Vintage Chargin' Targe for a refined metal
Skexis: Willing to trade Vintage Trophy Belt and a "Your Eternal Reward" for the Booties and the Quick Fix.
I probably won't be free until 5pm Alaskan time (6pm PST, 10pm EST) and possibly later during the week, but send me a Steam friends request/message if you're online and I'll try and get your stuff to you. Steam name is still Undead Scottsman.
What's your Steam ID?
Edit: Oops, must have looked over it. But I can't find you on Steam either way.
Crap, I'm a moron, steam name is UndeadScottsman with no space.
Undead Scottsman on
0
Options
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Hey you know what sucks about this game? Snipers and face stabs. I know you're all complaining about heavies and stuff, thats cool. He's a little OP, yeah. I switch to heavy (or medic!) whenever I'm done goofing around as another class and actually want to win and blah blah blah.
I don't have fun when theres a sniper or facestabber on the other team. I can get killed 100 times by any other means, and it isn't anywhere near as infuriating as once by those two classes. I've seriously considered buying a server just to remove snipers and spies, but then that would be dumb because heavy would be even more powerful.
What am I saying here? Am I trying to make some point about heavies being okay and rock paper scissors and shoot the medic? No. My point is fuck snipers. Fuck facestabs. That is all.
Mandalorian Rooster on
0
Options
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Posts
You shoulda asked me, it's a pro strategy we've been keeping on the down-low.
And what are these buffs the heavy got? I've only been playing recently.
And I hate everyone a bit more
with the sandvich and the gru he'll still be good, but i think it'll be fine
the main tipping point is at one point heavy was the least played class so valve made it so it was faster to spin up and you move faster while spun up
those buffs negated a very careful balance of commitment that a heavy had with fights and shit
so
just put him back to release state and he should be fine
-increased speed while spun up
-decreased spinning up/down time
-increased accuracy
-the GRU
-the Sandvich
-the Tomislav
meanwhile the pyro gets weaker with every update
I find explosives work quite well. or several quick snap shots with anything else. alternatively going around the heavy is a worthwhile endeavour. I believe there is also a class of some sorts that is quite efficient at doing this flanking while unnoticed stratagem as well
less extreme than that
I've been using my newly acquired Brass Beast and it feels a lot like the original mini-gun, especially wind up wise. I have no numbers to support this though
I wish they had stuck with the original tf pyro who was a guided cruise missile of flaming carnage. The napalm cannon was there to ignite people at range forcing them to seek health, and ability to rocket jump. The napalm grenades allowed a pyro to force a engineer to either abandon his sentry or burn to death. The flamethrowers damage was decent, but where he really excelled was the afterburn and the AOE. Every major weapon we had was AOE. We spread fire and carnage in our wake and sometimes we got the kills, sometimes we were just a fast objective grabber than left everything at low health slowly burning to death scrambling for a backpack while our teammates rolled in to finish them off.
Now everything negates us, and we have lost the majority of our long range and AOE abilities in exchange for the ability to feed a bad solider rockets lag depending
I know everyone is saying to just kill the medic but good luck with that. I like to think that I play a decent scout or pyro but it has gotten really hard to pick the medic and live. The heavy spins up too fast my best option is to sandman the heavy and hope I can get a couple of good meatshots into the medic before I die. And if an experienced person is playing medic its not like the medic is just standing still back there. He is jumping around and running in front of the heavy at the first sign of trouble.
For example, at the moment, unspun-up, I find that mostly Pyros who burn-airblast-axtinguish combo me will die just before they kill me, provided I don't fuck up on aim. Whether I live or die after killing them depends on how quickly I can spin down and drop a sandvich. Now that seems wrong, frankly. If a Pyro gets the jump on a Heavy who isn't spun up, should it really be a 1 for 1 trade?
Obviously, that might not be a Heavy nerf issue. It might just be another need for a Pyro buff.
The point of Heavy was originally - and this is something Valve said - to allow a low bar of entry to players who won't twitchmasters of CS. He was supposed to have a medium skill floor and a low skill ceiling in aim and damage, and mostly depend upon good map awareness to get a killing streak. I wouldn't describe his present effect on the game anything like this.
What's your Steam ID?
Edit: Oops, must have looked over it. But I can't find you on Steam either way.
It's just, you don't need any fancy counter to heavies, you just shoot them a bunch, if that doesnt work travel with friends and shoot them a bunch as a group. Try not to do it whilst standing within melee range of him.
Pyros with 225 health and no damage falloff were overpowered. Heavies arn't that.
(for reference, look at endaro's post!! he said things without being passive aggressive, something i'm not willing to do!!)
why are there any at all
I switched off heavy last night in fact on HONC because I couldn't take 5 steps out of spawn without one of the two spies stabbing me in the back, spies which seemed to do nothing but stab me and the other heavy on the team. Which was frustrating given that we had a pyro that wasn't spychecking and a team that wasn't actually talking (so no advance warning of spies), so I decided to actually have fun and play a pyro to actually hunt the damn spies down.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
need
classic night
Someone who is bad at heavy is still easy to kill. Someone who is good at heavy is good at the game and hard to beat. Just like good soldiers and good scouts and good everything.
Heavy is not over powered now and he never has been. He still has the same weaknesses he always had and the same solutions still work.
Cause everyone on your team is probably looking/shooting at that heavy anyway, now he just has a big, dripping, yellow target that says "shoot harder!" on his face. And it's no slouch damage-wise, either. Not great, but it's awesome for adding more damage onto a hard target from a safe-ish location, as well as giving mini-crits to any teammates who happen to hit him too.
Demoman works pretty well too; either variety (knight, pipebomb)....but that can be a little trickier...unless you get four direct hits, then he's probably toast.
please go ahead and not read any posts or points made on prior pages
For me, Pyro is like a Spy who can't disguise, backstab, or sap things.
But I'm terrible at Spy so what do I know.
Actually, I'll tell you what I know.
I know that I enjoy the hell out of sneaking up on a group of enemy players, lighting every single one of them on fire as I do my "holy shit that Pyro is crazy what is he doing" dance, and then watching them die one by one as I'm waiting to respawn.
The best ones are when I clear about six guys off a cart just by holding the left mouse button down and running in circles around it.
Pyro is a guilty pleasure and I should feel ashamed that it's my #1 most played class, but I'm not.
PA has been moaning about heavies for years, but your all going to keep playing the game, so you could at least try to figure out how to solve your problems instead of throwing your hands up and saying "well gosh, these people are bad at the game but they all went heavy so we never stood a chance"
Seems legit guys.
Go in as a Spy, disguised as a Medic. Then, when the heavy gets shot, just don't heal them because you're really a Spy.
Brilliant!
I don't have fun when theres a sniper or facestabber on the other team. I can get killed 100 times by any other means, and it isn't anywhere near as infuriating as once by those two classes. I've seriously considered buying a server just to remove snipers and spies, but then that would be dumb because heavy would be even more powerful.
What am I saying here? Am I trying to make some point about heavies being okay and rock paper scissors and shoot the medic? No. My point is fuck snipers. Fuck facestabs. That is all.
Every facestab is a backstab that didn't register
But then how can we have payload matches where defense goes full cloak & dagger spy, hides in a corner, and then runs out as the bomb explodes.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Most of it is shitty
New items that are balanced and fun:
Kritzkrieg
FAN
Buff banner
Flare gun
Sandvich
Gunslinger
Pee gun and Jarate
Everything else is gay as hell