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Captain America: Now With 20% More Angst!

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Posts

  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    They just finished an arc in Captain America called "Gulag" which was pretty much the conclusion of the Bucky on trial story arc.

    Story spoilers:
    Bucky gets charged as guilty in his trial, but the judge declares all time as being served. But then they export him to Russia to answer to them for his crimes as the Winter Soldier.

    However, there's a bit of a soviet conspiracy at work and the bad guys, who we still don't really know who they are at this point, pull some strings to push him to the edge while he's in prison, in order to reawaken him as the Winter Soldier.

    Natasha gets involved because she has a 6th sense that something is up. She stages an off-the-record jailbreak and rescues Bucky from a prison riot.

    Overall, the Gulag arc was actually pretty good. It featured a lot of really cool Black Widow moments. The end result is that Bucky is now a political fugitive because he broke the agreement that the US had with Russia. But he plans to return to America anyway to stop whoever it is that was behind the Gulag conspiracy.

    The story ends with Fury telling Steve Rogers that it is now impossible for Bucky to wear the shield any longer and that its time for Steve to take his place as Captain America again.

    Lucascraft on
  • Sharp101Sharp101 TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Fear Itself Spoiler:
    And then none of that story matters in the slightest as he dies in the first battle of Fear Itself.

    That kinda sucks. Because almost all of Bucky as Cap has been really good.

    Sharp101 on
  • KING LITERATEKING LITERATE Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I want so very hard to consider this superdickery in some way, but I can't :(
    cap.jpg

    KING LITERATE on
    Diamond FC: 3867 1354 8291
    TWITTER TWATS
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    TexiKen wrote:
    slessman wrote: »
    Speaking of Captain America do you think that it would be cool to see him go after terrorists? I know that he had fun hunting down the Nazis in World War II. If he stands for American justice then they should definitely make a comic series with him in the Middle East kicking butt and taking names.

    I get tired of constant pigeon-holing of all Marvel Heroes really fighting old nazis and AIM and Hydra, create some more diverse villains. Iran right now would probably have lots of super villains in the Marvel Universe. Back during the Gulf War the Liberators (the old Brotherhood of Evil Mutants working for the US) fought Iraqi super soldiers, and despite it only showing up in X-Annuals I thought that was a pretty original take.

    This is where the Marvel Knights Cap run could have really been modern, but nope, it fell on its face right out of the gate.

    I remember watching some TV special where Stan Lee was all, "After 9/11 I don't think readers want to see Captain America punching out a terrorist, I think we've moved on from that."

    Fuck you Stan Lee, and your politically correct bullshit. I want to see Captain America kick Bin Laden in the nuts and blow up terrorists by the truckload.

    Anyone notice anytime Terrorists get used in comics they're either always western terrorists, or backed by the West, or some wacky group that doesn't even seem like a threat.

    Why can't we ever just get good old MUSLIM TERRORISTS. Heck, throw in some IRA and Right Wing survivalists too, but don't pretend like Islamic terrorism isn't a big deal, because it kinda is.

    manwiththemachinegun on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    ...oh dear.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    whoa dude. calm down.

  • Magna InfernoMagna Inferno Registered User regular
    You might want to check out "Holy Terror" by Frank Millar coming out in Sept?. It's seems to be what you want.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    whoa dude. calm down.

    This isn't a rant, however it has everything to do with calling something stupid, stupid, because it is. It has even got its own page on TV tropes.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/04/the-return-of-the-paranoid-style/6733/

    People need to stop looking at Islamic terrorism as some sort of sacred cow. The very idea is absurd. Just look at the villians of 24 for example. We can have Captain America in a film laugh about punching out Hitler 200 times but we can't have something simliar with Bin Laden? That's just dumb.

    Anyway, the point is that Captain American shouldn't be afraid of fighting any enemies of the U.S.

    Don't you think it's rather pathetic that the last big 'comic style' storyline that had identified Islamic terrorists was Team America: World Police back in 2004? And that made fun of just about anyone involved.

    manwiththemachinegun on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    Fight the IRA? You can't say that any more man, we're all friends now!


    (Except the dissidents)

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    TexiKen wrote:
    slessman wrote: »
    Speaking of Captain America do you think that it would be cool to see him go after terrorists? I know that he had fun hunting down the Nazis in World War II. If he stands for American justice then they should definitely make a comic series with him in the Middle East kicking butt and taking names.

    I get tired of constant pigeon-holing of all Marvel Heroes really fighting old nazis and AIM and Hydra, create some more diverse villains. Iran right now would probably have lots of super villains in the Marvel Universe. Back during the Gulf War the Liberators (the old Brotherhood of Evil Mutants working for the US) fought Iraqi super soldiers, and despite it only showing up in X-Annuals I thought that was a pretty original take.

    This is where the Marvel Knights Cap run could have really been modern, but nope, it fell on its face right out of the gate.

    I remember watching some TV special where Stan Lee was all, "After 9/11 I don't think readers want to see Captain America punching out a terrorist, I think we've moved on from that."

    Fuck you Stan Lee, and your politically correct bullshit. I want to see Captain America kick Bin Laden in the nuts and blow up terrorists by the truckload.

    Anyone notice anytime Terrorists get used in comics they're either always western terrorists, or backed by the West, or some wacky group that doesn't even seem like a threat.

    Why can't we ever just get good old MUSLIM TERRORISTS. Heck, throw in some IRA and Right Wing survivalists too, but don't pretend like Islamic terrorism isn't a big deal, because it kinda is.

    What

    Solar on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I mean

    even despite your personal opinions which may best be described as questionable

    Captain America is specifically the type of character that wouldn't go sweeping in to the Middle East and kicking the shit out of everyone who could be a terrorist

    he stands for American ideals. Equality, justice, freedom. Not the American government itself.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    So, we can punch out Nazis, but not Islamic terrorists?

    I can think of several Islamic Jihad type themed Supervillians in the DC verse, Jihad (who again were politically correctly downgraded to "Onslaught"), another Superman story had Christian fundamentalists trying to create a 'Superman' who turned out to be evil etc. Heck, Superman rolled into Qurac and shut down the government single handedly, destroying their war machines without killing anyone. He broke their battleships in half, melted their guns, it was just like World War II Captain America except he was fight Not-Saddam-Hussein. What's wrong with that?

    For a comic continuity that took 9/11 so seriously, don't you think it's just the *slightest* bit odd we haven't seen a big, Middle Eastern baddie for Captain America et al to wail on? Have we really sissied out that much as a society? And no where did I say Captain America should flip out and kill everyone, I think that's being projected onto what I said.

    I think people are misinterpreting my point, I'm not saying Captain American should charge into the Middle East and kill everyone. I do however expect some comic writers to grow some balls and write interesting Middle Eastern villians because that is relevant to today.

    Are we really still so touchy about pissing off 'the wrong people?' It's comics for goodness sake!

    manwiththemachinegun on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    US Agent would totally go to Afghanistan, though.

    Also, I think it's just that our tastes as a nation have changed. In a post-Vietnam World, people are less keen to see war painted as a glorious, bombastic affair. Even if you're making light of the enemy, whom most people don't hold in high regard, you're also trivializing the horrible experiences faced by everyday soldiers.

    So, while you can have stories about the Taliban, they require a certain amount of gravity that will more often than not seem insincere when found within a superhero story.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I am saying that Captain America was a soldier enlisted in the US Military during World War 2 and as such fought the German troops

    now he is a private citizen, although sometimes a SHIELD agent/commander, and has no business in the middle east

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    US Agent would totally go to Afghanistan, though.

    Also, I think it's just that our tastes as a nation have changed. In a post-Vietnam World, people are less keen to see war painted as a glorious, bombastic affair. Even if you're making light of the enemy, whom most people don't hold in high regard, you're also trivializing the horrible experiences faced by everyday soldiers.

    So, while you can have stories about the Taliban, they require a certain amount of gravity that will more often than not seem insincere when found within a superhero story.

    And I'm saying that's rather sad, because comics are supposed to be escapist fun where you can solve the world's problem by punching the right person in the face. That's really at the fundamental heart of a Superhero: You have power, now you can make the world a better place.

    I'm rather disapointed the same hasn't been applied with much gusto to the Taliban, Somoli pirates, etc because of the risk of offending delicate sensibilities.

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    :|

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Oh man, if it has its own page on tvtropes it must be legit

  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    USAgent will go anywhere to beat up people (he did help invade not-Iraq with the Invaders).

    Hell, he doesn't even need to leave LA:

    avengerswest98a.jpg

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    ok

    John Walker gives tips to Optimus Prime

    got it

  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Oh man, if it has its own page on tvtropes it must be legit

    Gee, when was the last time you saw an Islamic terrorist in a movie/comic/game that didn't involve some sort of Western politicking behind it?

    The last one I can remember was True Lies, and that was before 9/11.

    You can be a silly goose about it, but it doesn't change the fact that Middle Eastern villians, in any media really not just comics, are as rare as golden geese.

    And that's terrible. Super heroes should beat the crap out of everyone equally.

    With the awful shit that's going on in Syria right now, I certainly would like a super hero to do something about it, even if it's fictional.

    manwiththemachinegun on
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    there are so many nazi villains because there were A LOT OF NAZIS

    it makes sense there's so few terrorist or middle eastern villains because there's relatively few of them in real life, too

    besides, you want middle eastern villains? read the ultimates 2.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    The Nazis were the last "THESE ARE THE BAD GUYS" people the world has had. It was cut and dry, they are very evil people and they needed to be shut down. Obviously after the war the situation in Germany has been revealed to be more complicated than that but the Nazi party themselves remain horrible individuals that deserve to be demonized at any turn.

    The current situation in the Middle East is A) much more recent than world war fucking two and B) much more complicated, with hundreds of political parties, religious organizations and civilians caught in the midst. It isn't a clean, simple conflict.

    You want either Ultimate Captain America or USAgent. Both of which are chest thumping jingoistic AMERICA, FUCK YEAH type characters. Steve Rogers is anything but.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Right, it is complicated, but there's nothing wrong with demonizing Al Qaeda, or Syria, who murder, rape, pillage and whom are hated by everyday Muslims who like to not get murdered, raped, and pillaged.

    It just seems no one is willing to try to show that in a comic, which is a shame.

    If you're telling me Steve Rogers would be against ordinary Syrians rising up against their torturing, mudering corrupt regime in a new drive from freedom and peace... well, I just don't know what to say.

    manwiththemachinegun on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Because it is a delicate, ongoing issue and comics are typically an escapist fantasy. Nazis are still used as villains because the Nazi party(while still in existence) isn't a real world threat anymore and is pretty much universally hated

    that is why issues that cover real world events, such as the 9/11 issue, are almost always poorly recieved.

    A stereotypical muslim villain would likely be more than a little racist and offensive to the muslim population within the US. Likewise, a hero going into the middle east and swooping in and single handedly taking out Osama Bin Laden or whatever would seem ridiculous and cheapening of a real world issue.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    A point can be made that in the 100 times we will see AIM, Hydra or any other villain group, you could make one of them come out of some kind of jihadi philosophy. There has to be a muslim equivalent of Reverend Stryker out there, somewhere. (I'm not suggesting involvement in wars because that makes things too etched in time, but do we really need to have the Watchdogs be the only thug type group out there?)

  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Thanks for that mention Texi. And that's really my only point. No one complains about Christian fundie William Stryker shown as unrepentant bag guy right? Right? But if you try to show a Muslim extremist, suddenly it's racist and offensive and we can't show that in comics. When has controversy *ever* stopped comics before? Doesn't anyone else see this as more than a little hypocrtical?

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Controversy has stopped comics lots of times.

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  • GankGank Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    The Beer Bottle VS Root Beer Bottle on the Superman cover? That's the silliest I can think of right now.

    Edit: Eh, that's more a re-call, but still.

    Gank on
    galactussig-1.jpg
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Hey guys, remember when comics were crazy racist and borderline propaganda? Why can't we go back to that?

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    oc%20slap%20a%20jap%20superdickery.jpg

    Ah, the good ol' days.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    Come on Centi, I don't think anyone's suggesting that. It's just that with comics becoming more diverse (or at least that's the intent of the publishers), the villains can be as well. In Marvel, I can only think of the Mandarin, Moses Magnum, and Barracuda.

    And Gank, I think the most controversial thing I can remember in comics is the X-Statix Princess Diana fiasco.

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    ...how about the aforementioned Holy Terror which was going to be about Batman before it was stalled

  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    ...I kind of blanked on that one :oops:

    The Princess Di one stands out because I think they had a few issues ready to go, then changed it up at the last minute. With Frank Miller you never know when he'll decide to do something. For the longest time he simply said he was going to do a Batman fights Al Qaeda book, but we never saw the art. With X-Statix Di was smack dab in the center of the cover.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    All I'm saying is that comics are telling better stories now than ever before, and a big part of that is because they're not doing stories like that anymore. What possible benefit could there be from having Batman fight al Qaeda instead of Leviathan?

  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    That's a fair point, but Leviathan isn't Nazis or a crazy Christian group. It's something different and new. And that's what I want more than anything, something new, not a common villain 70 years old. Between comics and videogames I'm nazi'd out.
    Even your avatar got tired of the nazis 4 years into the war ;)

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    True fact: I don't think I'll ever get tired of Nazis, especially insane Nazi scientists who maybe have swastikas tattooed on their foreheads and create genetically engineered cyborg gorilla soldiers.

    But yeah, writers can create much more entertaining villains than Islamic terrorists.

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Oh man, if it has its own page on tvtropes it must be legit

    Gee, when was the last time you saw an Islamic terrorist in a movie/comic/game that didn't involve some sort of Western politicking behind it?

    The last one I can remember was True Lies, and that was before 9/11.

    You can be a silly goose about it, but it doesn't change the fact that Middle Eastern villians, in any media really not just comics, are as rare as golden geese.

    And that's terrible. Super heroes should beat the crap out of everyone equally.

    With the awful shit that's going on in Syria right now, I certainly would like a super hero to do something about it, even if it's fictional.

    Generic Middle Eastern Terrorists were the go-to villains in films throughout the 70's and 80's. The reason they were even used in True Lies is that they were so played out that it added to the ridiculous camp factor in the movie.

    ...and there was more that I was going to say in this post, but I feel it's incredibly obvious and ridiculous that I would have to point it out. To sum up: Serious Issues need to be treated Seriously, otherwise the audience won't respect your product. Nobody respects Frank Miller's product, and it's going to sell like shit.

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • GankGank Registered User regular
    Plus if they don't use Nazis they use or make another in an ever expanding mess of Terrorist Organisations. AIM, Hydra, Hand, etc. The recent Taskmaster mini listed more... There's a fair few to choose from before you wander into racial stereotypes.

    galactussig-1.jpg
  • iidesuiidesu Registered User, __BANNED USERS new member
    thanks for sharing. gotta check it out later.

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    did a human type those words or is the process somehow automated?

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