How about, you can just smash buttons and kill things in 10 minutes, or learn to use the damn system and do it in 5? Long as there's a reward for playing better it doesn't matter that anyone can smash his way to victory.
League of Legends: Sorakanmyworld
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
I dunno, if the game uses a truckload of weapons but you can shoot your way through the whole game easily with a handgun, is that not a valid complaint? (and one I've seen on these boards a lot)
Alone it's not worth knocking off 5 points mind you, but that's a very valid complaint, bad balancing.
Not really, no. If a game has various options for its combat, and you intentionally choose not to utilize them, then that's not the game being boring, that's you being boring.
No, that's the game being boring. Use whatever works in combat. If you have deeper combos and moves, force me to use them. Otherwise your game is boring, and using any moves other than the one that "works" is masturbation.
Also Eurogamer most certainly is handing out 9/10s like candy nowadays. They are no longer the harsh mistress they once were.
So it's the game's responsibility to insure the player fights in a flashy, interesting manner? I'll have to remember that next time I play DMC.
Eh, I just think it's better when games stick to that mentality of "there is only one or maybe two specific ways to kill every specific type of enemy" instead of all of your attacks doing damage with some doing more than others. Seems like it goes a lot farther towards making your game interesting to play.
As much as I fucking love the Assassin's Creed franchise, and the combat makes you feel like a badass because of the pretty kill animations happening on-screen, any complaints lodged against its simplistic "counter kill-repeat" battle system are 100% accurate, and I cringe whenever people say "Oh well you can make it more fun." Action games should take a cue from Batman; have enemies make me do something different and it'll go a long way towards actually getting people to learn it, as opposed to a Bayonetta or DMC type where there are hundreds of combos available but why on God's green earth would anyone take the time to learn and master them when punch-punch-kick does the job? If we were talking about a game that's competitive in nature, sure, I can see why one would want to take the time to acquaint themselves with all available moves for all available situations. But single-player games? Eh...
So much fun. Going to leave it be for a while before trying to come back and finish out some score and difficulty related trophies. I did try the Extra difficulty though. 1 hit, and all your amor is gone. So, that'll be fun.
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
Eh, I just think it's better when games stick to that mentality of "there is only one or maybe two specific ways to kill every specific type of enemy" instead of all of your attacks doing damage with some doing more than others. Seems like it goes a lot farther towards making your game interesting to play.
As much as I fucking love the Assassin's Creed franchise, and the combat makes you feel like a badass because of the pretty kill animations happening on-screen, any complaints lodged against its simplistic "counter kill-repeat" battle system are 100% accurate, and I cringe whenever people say "Oh well you can make it more fun." Action games should take a cue from Batman; have enemies make me do something different and it'll go a long way towards actually getting people to learn it, as opposed to a Bayonetta or DMC type where there are hundreds of combos available but why on God's green earth would anyone take the time to learn and master them when punch-punch-kick does the job? If we were talking about a game that's competitive in nature, sure, I can see why one would want to take the time to acquaint themselves with all available moves for all available situations. But single-player games? Eh...
Here's the thing about Batman: You don't really have to learn the system in Batman. Outside of one (rare) enemy type where you need to cape stun (or combat takedown or throw) and one (rare) enemy type where you have to evade (or combat takedown or throw), every combat move in that game is interchangeable. That game doesn't force you to do diddly, and, in fact, many people criticized it for that on release. It simply rewards you for learning the system in the way of simply getting through combat more quickly and efficiently and giving you more experience based on your combo rating. This is, 100%, no different from Devil May Cry or Bayonetta, which reward you for learning the system in the way of simply getting through combat more quickly and efficiently and giving you more experience (red orbs, halos) based on your combo rating.
Now there's some games that have balance issues that make certain moves unreasonably more useful than other moves. That's a problem, and it should be fixed. Like the changes made to Ninja Gaiden Black, so that flying swallow wasn't a win button.
Is there a criticism to be made for a game that doesn't out and out require you to know everything to proceed? Yeah, maybe. I can see that. Is that criticism that the game is poor or boring? No. That mostly comes down to, on your end, having a conscious choice between having fun and not having fun, and then choosing to not have fun. If you happen to not like games that are largely dependent upon player-end experimentation, maybe don't play Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. Maybe don't play Minecraft or Garry's Mod. They're probably not for you.
Note that I haven't gotten my copy of El Shaddai yet. I have no idea what's going on with it.
Eh, I just think it's better when games stick to that mentality of "there is only one or maybe two specific ways to kill every specific type of enemy" instead of all of your attacks doing damage with some doing more than others. Seems like it goes a lot farther towards making your game interesting to play.
As much as I fucking love the Assassin's Creed franchise, and the combat makes you feel like a badass because of the pretty kill animations happening on-screen, any complaints lodged against its simplistic "counter kill-repeat" battle system are 100% accurate, and I cringe whenever people say "Oh well you can make it more fun." Action games should take a cue from Batman; have enemies make me do something different and it'll go a long way towards actually getting people to learn it, as opposed to a Bayonetta or DMC type where there are hundreds of combos available but why on God's green earth would anyone take the time to learn and master them when punch-punch-kick does the job? If we were talking about a game that's competitive in nature, sure, I can see why one would want to take the time to acquaint themselves with all available moves for all available situations. But single-player games? Eh...
Here's the thing about Batman: You don't really have to learn the system in Batman. Outside of one (rare) enemy type where you need to cape stun (or combat takedown or throw) and one (rare) enemy type where you have to evade (or combat takedown or throw), every combat move in that game is interchangeable. That game doesn't force you to do diddly, and, in fact, many people criticized it for that on release. It simply rewards you for learning the system in the way of simply getting through combat more quickly and efficiently and giving you more experience based on your combo rating. This is, 100%, no different from Devil May Cry or Bayonetta, which reward you for learning the system in the way of simply getting through combat more quickly and efficiently and giving you more experience (red orbs, halos) based on your combo rating.
Now there's some games that have balance issues that make certain moves unreasonably more useful than other moves. That's a problem, and it should be fixed. Like the changes made to Ninja Gaiden Black, so that flying swallow wasn't a win button.
Is there a criticism to be made for a game that doesn't out and out require you to know everything to proceed? Yeah, maybe. I can see that. Is that criticism that the game is poor or boring? No. That mostly comes down to, on your end, having a conscious choice between having fun and not having fun, and then choosing to not have fun. If you happen to not like games that are largely dependent upon player-end experimentation, maybe don't play Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. Maybe don't play Minecraft or Garry's Mod. They're probably not for you.
Note that I haven't gotten my copy of El Shaddai yet. I have no idea what's going on with it.
You summed the shit out of how I felt about what was being said. I don't know how many games I've played where, sure, I could CHOOSE to just do the same thing. And, sure, I would have certainly completed the game in doing so. But then, hells no. Why would I do that? I play games to have fun. Not beat them like some kind of job. So I learn the systems. I learn different things. And I try different things because I just paid 60 dollars and I certainly find it fun to watch shit happening that I am causing. Even if I COULD just beat the game very simply.
One could argue that it's pointless. Sure. And maybe to some it is. Like the guy who keeps posting here about this whole thing. But I really do like to get all I can from my games and the sense of accomplishment from learning how to do those moves is second to none.
I mean. Go try to tell a Fighting Game player that he could just jump and hadouken in Street Fighter. He'd punch you. Mastering the mechanics even if they aren't needed is what creates competition and joy from learning. And suddenly Fighting games are this big tournament based event. And they can kill you in one big combo. Even if all you ever cared to learn was just some jumping uppercut because it got you through the Arcade Mode. Well that's your fault. It's ALWAYS up to you to learn. Always. Most games don't "force" things on you per se. They just introduce things and you use them because you can. Like new guns. Stuff like that. And sometimes the games that force you into things end up worse because people like being able to do what they want in any given situation.
Kind of like climbing the leaderboards in DMC. I was around 1000 in the world. Because I learned every little thing and just fucking tried it all and used all the combos. It's fun to me. You could get through the game by just slashing a lot and then beat it. But you are just ruining the experience for yourself. Just like you can run through some levels in shooter games without killing shit. Why do that? It's fun to kill shit. Maybe you don't always have to but you will because it is enjoyable. I just think the way he's looking at this is all wrong. Games are not a job. I don't buy them because I have to and have to finish them. I buy them to play and learn their systems and mechanics and master what it's all about. And also finish them (of course.) And have a damn fun time doing it.
"You're like a kitten! A kitten who doesn't speak Japanese." ~ Juliet Starling
This game rewards you more for evasion and timing, they say as much in the previews.
and i didn't like it
unstoppable enemy strikes with huge amounts of health per enemy make for long, drawn out battles that make the protagonist seem underpowered. i find it tedious.
is there a dodge roll or something, like block+jump? i was resorting to just-blocking to parry enemy attacks
Depends on the weapon, the 'funnel' shooter has a dash move which is very nice. The sword, I usually double jump out of the way or block. If you block and hold attack + back, you can do a launch move to juggle the enemy for a good while and rack up damage.
Awesome boxart, as expected.
Played the demo. This game is awesome, but they do a very poor job of explaining things, so I can understand people's complaints.
I know that the funnel is called Gale, but I never got the name of that scimitar. Anyway, both weapons so far seem to have an evasive maneuver with block+jump. Gale's is better, but it has a very weak guard too, so it's balanced defensively. With the blade, you can block a couple of hits, but evasion or Just Guard is preferable.
Combat is deeper than most people I've talked to seem to think - mashing attack isn't the only way to combo. Leaving pauses in your combo timing creates different attacks and can even change the properties of your charge attack too. For example, with Gale, attack, pause, hold attack lets you do a charged up artillery type attack, while attack, pause, attack, pause, etc. let's you shoot arcing shots that break enemy guard.
Charging an attack and releasing just as enemy attacks is a counter strike. Prevents damage.
Block+attack is a launcher for both weapons. Lift, then attack a bit. From there you can hold attack or use block+attack again for a downward slam type move for both.
Gale's charged attack has multiple phases, so try mashing attack after you use it.
That's all I've discovered so far.
EDIT: Went back and read more of the thread to find that everyone thinks the gameplay is mediocre, so this post probably will generate some backlash. Sorry if everyone already knew this stuff.
Finally got around to trying the demo (it did only recently come out in the UK) and I may have to play through it again knowing this. I found myself wanting to enjoy it (I love the visual style) but just could not find a consistent way to hold my own in the combat. I could block some attacks, but not all (seemed to have more success if I blocked just before getting hit), and really wanted to find a way to have more control over my own attacks. Would also be lovely to have some kind of dodge-roll, but hey. So yeah, thanks for this stuff, should be handy
Hitting R1 right at the exact time of the hit, counts as a Perfect Guard and it leaves the enemy stunned for a short time. The combo you get from delaying an attack during your normal attack string guard breaks enemies usually by causing Enoch to jump over or slide under them.
R1+Jump is your defensive move darleysam, you can use that plus a direction with the analog on all three weapons to evade/block. With the Arch its a jumping dash that takes you up at a 45 degree angle and you can attack from it, with the Gale its a dash that can be done in the air, and with the Veil you hold up a shield but movement during this is limited.
as opposed to a Bayonetta or DMC type where there are hundreds of combos available but why on God's green earth would anyone take the time to learn and master them when punch-punch-kick does the job?
Longer combos do more damage with their wicked weaves than a simple PKP, as well as firing in different directions, acting as launchers, earthers, hitting a larger area, etc
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
Fuck, this is pretty. I mean, seriously. You see screenshots and you see videos and you still pop that game in and it punches you in square the eyeholes.
I like the combat so far. Seems very lean and very deliberate.
Fuck, this is pretty. I mean, seriously. You see screenshots and you see videos and you still pop that game in and it punches you in square the eyeholes.
I like the combat so far. Seems very lean and very deliberate.
Very true. The game is pretty. As fuck.
"You're like a kitten! A kitten who doesn't speak Japanese." ~ Juliet Starling
This is among the most beautiful games I've ever played in my life. Sad to see that Ignition disbanded the entire development team behind it, has closed up shop, and now Ignition is back to being a publisher and not a developer... this may just be Ignition's last game ever.
Probably befell the same fate as Nier (which disbanded Cavia), this game is a bit too weird. (Though I think this is seriously one of the best and most surprising game releases this year)
Having just made it to level 5, I have to say, I'm having a blast. No, the gameplay is nothing revolutionary, but the visual are punch you in the nuts brain dribbling awesome. It's basically like Contra platforming mixed with Devil May Cry. There isn't quite as much depth in the combat, but the real beauty is when you can chain from one enemy to the next, disarming each and using the best weapon for any given situation.
The story is decent, a lot of the fun is finding hidden branching paths that explain extra story segments. It's pretty easy to get immersed into the 'just one more level' mentality just to see what insane thing is going to come at you next.
Basically, if you're into Okami-like games, you're gonna love it. That being said, it really is a niche title which is a shame since the world and design is so amazing.
Beat this recently. While its not the "best" game in terms of combat, it was a wonderful game all in all. The boss fights were tense as hell and awesome in every case (except for near endgame
Final Azazel, his fly form was kinda stupid and boring.
. Overall I'd put it up there with games I'll most likely play again on a rainy day.
Nice looking game, but the voices grate for some reason.
Combat's not bad, either.
I picked this up for about ten quid a couple of days ago and, apart from the visuals, the voice acting was the second thing that made an impression on me. I think it's really bloody good. And Jason Isaac's Lucifel has, effortlessly, become one of my favourite new characters of the year. (And the whole 'el instead of 'er business is actually a very clever pun.)
The only voice actor that's struck me as grating/miscast is Sariel's, as he sounds like he's a graduate of the Metal Gear Solid school of voice acting.
Just picked this up - it is totally scratching my NieR/bizarre-o games itch.
Holy fuck though I wish my eyes could process more colors. The 2-D platforming sections have been BEYOND gorgeous, and the actual levels have been great. Combat is a bit hard though.
I am loving this so far though - Lucifel's conversations on the phone I keep hearing sound like God isn't too confident in me.
Just beat Chapter 3. Should I be able to beat Azazel or Samiel yet? I just finished Ezikel's stage, and those other two keep popping up and taunting me, and although I've gotten BETTER at them, when I lose there doesn't seem to be any real consequence...
mxmarks on
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
There's no consequence to completing the game. However, it's totally possible to kick their ass everytime they show up. It makes them go, "WTF? A HUMAN defeated me!" and you get a huge score bonus at the end of the stage.
The guy upstairs chooses his servants well it seems.
Posts
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
So it's the game's responsibility to insure the player fights in a flashy, interesting manner? I'll have to remember that next time I play DMC.
As much as I fucking love the Assassin's Creed franchise, and the combat makes you feel like a badass because of the pretty kill animations happening on-screen, any complaints lodged against its simplistic "counter kill-repeat" battle system are 100% accurate, and I cringe whenever people say "Oh well you can make it more fun." Action games should take a cue from Batman; have enemies make me do something different and it'll go a long way towards actually getting people to learn it, as opposed to a Bayonetta or DMC type where there are hundreds of combos available but why on God's green earth would anyone take the time to learn and master them when punch-punch-kick does the job? If we were talking about a game that's competitive in nature, sure, I can see why one would want to take the time to acquaint themselves with all available moves for all available situations. But single-player games? Eh...
So much fun. Going to leave it be for a while before trying to come back and finish out some score and difficulty related trophies. I did try the Extra difficulty though. 1 hit, and all your amor is gone. So, that'll be fun.
Now there's some games that have balance issues that make certain moves unreasonably more useful than other moves. That's a problem, and it should be fixed. Like the changes made to Ninja Gaiden Black, so that flying swallow wasn't a win button.
Is there a criticism to be made for a game that doesn't out and out require you to know everything to proceed? Yeah, maybe. I can see that. Is that criticism that the game is poor or boring? No. That mostly comes down to, on your end, having a conscious choice between having fun and not having fun, and then choosing to not have fun. If you happen to not like games that are largely dependent upon player-end experimentation, maybe don't play Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. Maybe don't play Minecraft or Garry's Mod. They're probably not for you.
Note that I haven't gotten my copy of El Shaddai yet. I have no idea what's going on with it.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
You summed the shit out of how I felt about what was being said. I don't know how many games I've played where, sure, I could CHOOSE to just do the same thing. And, sure, I would have certainly completed the game in doing so. But then, hells no. Why would I do that? I play games to have fun. Not beat them like some kind of job. So I learn the systems. I learn different things. And I try different things because I just paid 60 dollars and I certainly find it fun to watch shit happening that I am causing. Even if I COULD just beat the game very simply.
One could argue that it's pointless. Sure. And maybe to some it is. Like the guy who keeps posting here about this whole thing. But I really do like to get all I can from my games and the sense of accomplishment from learning how to do those moves is second to none.
I mean. Go try to tell a Fighting Game player that he could just jump and hadouken in Street Fighter. He'd punch you. Mastering the mechanics even if they aren't needed is what creates competition and joy from learning. And suddenly Fighting games are this big tournament based event. And they can kill you in one big combo. Even if all you ever cared to learn was just some jumping uppercut because it got you through the Arcade Mode. Well that's your fault. It's ALWAYS up to you to learn. Always. Most games don't "force" things on you per se. They just introduce things and you use them because you can. Like new guns. Stuff like that. And sometimes the games that force you into things end up worse because people like being able to do what they want in any given situation.
Kind of like climbing the leaderboards in DMC. I was around 1000 in the world. Because I learned every little thing and just fucking tried it all and used all the combos. It's fun to me. You could get through the game by just slashing a lot and then beat it. But you are just ruining the experience for yourself. Just like you can run through some levels in shooter games without killing shit. Why do that? It's fun to kill shit. Maybe you don't always have to but you will because it is enjoyable. I just think the way he's looking at this is all wrong. Games are not a job. I don't buy them because I have to and have to finish them. I buy them to play and learn their systems and mechanics and master what it's all about. And also finish them (of course.) And have a damn fun time doing it.
Finally got around to trying the demo (it did only recently come out in the UK) and I may have to play through it again knowing this. I found myself wanting to enjoy it (I love the visual style) but just could not find a consistent way to hold my own in the combat. I could block some attacks, but not all (seemed to have more success if I blocked just before getting hit), and really wanted to find a way to have more control over my own attacks. Would also be lovely to have some kind of dodge-roll, but hey. So yeah, thanks for this stuff, should be handy
R1+Jump is your defensive move darleysam, you can use that plus a direction with the analog on all three weapons to evade/block. With the Arch its a jumping dash that takes you up at a 45 degree angle and you can attack from it, with the Gale its a dash that can be done in the air, and with the Veil you hold up a shield but movement during this is limited.
Longer combos do more damage with their wicked weaves than a simple PKP, as well as firing in different directions, acting as launchers, earthers, hitting a larger area, etc
I like the combat so far. Seems very lean and very deliberate.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Very true. The game is pretty. As fuck.
Probably befell the same fate as Nier (which disbanded Cavia), this game is a bit too weird. (Though I think this is seriously one of the best and most surprising game releases this year)
The story is decent, a lot of the fun is finding hidden branching paths that explain extra story segments. It's pretty easy to get immersed into the 'just one more level' mentality just to see what insane thing is going to come at you next.
Basically, if you're into Okami-like games, you're gonna love it. That being said, it really is a niche title which is a shame since the world and design is so amazing.
Glad I bought it.
Combat's not bad, either.
Anyone else get a kick out of Enoch's 'summon' against the Fire Nephilem? I thought that was probably the most badass moment in the game.
Also as far as Armaros' fate...
Thats pretty much what I thought in the end. Too bad a sequel will never be made to verify that idea >.>
I picked this up for about ten quid a couple of days ago and, apart from the visuals, the voice acting was the second thing that made an impression on me. I think it's really bloody good. And Jason Isaac's Lucifel has, effortlessly, become one of my favourite new characters of the year. (And the whole 'el instead of 'er business is actually a very clever pun.)
The only voice actor that's struck me as grating/miscast is Sariel's, as he sounds like he's a graduate of the Metal Gear Solid school of voice acting.
Holy fuck though I wish my eyes could process more colors. The 2-D platforming sections have been BEYOND gorgeous, and the actual levels have been great. Combat is a bit hard though.
I am loving this so far though - Lucifel's conversations on the phone I keep hearing sound like God isn't too confident in me.
Just beat Chapter 3. Should I be able to beat Azazel or Samiel yet? I just finished Ezikel's stage, and those other two keep popping up and taunting me, and although I've gotten BETTER at them, when I lose there doesn't seem to be any real consequence...
The guy upstairs chooses his servants well it seems.